Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2007 » SMART has new management « Previous Next »
Top of pageBottom of page

Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman

Post Number: 409
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 3:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Can they bring back Livonia?
Top of pageBottom of page

Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5619
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 8:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Please post some kind of article for discussion, or something more than you've posted.
Top of pageBottom of page

Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2907
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Saturday, June 09, 2007 - 9:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know someone from Livonia who is driving up to Farmington to catch the bus to downtown. They need to bring it back, but the majority in Livonia has spoken. It's hard to conceive of a comprehensive system without being able to go through one of the largest suburbs.
Top of pageBottom of page

Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 430
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 12:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, Wayne County and Oakland County screwed it up by allowing people to opt in or out city by city. Macomb did it right: they asked the entire County to vote it up or down, and the County voted it up. So every single City, village and township has some kind of transit, be it line-haul fixed-route, or "dial a ride" in the northern part of the County.

There are several places in Wayne and Oakland counties that do not, by choice, have any transit from SMART whatsoever. The heck with them. We can have a perfectly good regional system without them. If they want back in later, we'd welcome 'em back.

The "majority" in Livonia did not vote on the transit issue. As always, very few people came out to vote, and the majority of that small number carried the issue. I'm afraid, from watching some of the meetings at the time, that bigotry played no small role.
Top of pageBottom of page

Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 3302
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 1:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The proponents for dumping SMART in Livonia claimed that only some 2% of Livonians were riding SMART. Therefore, perhaps, most of them felt that it would get shot down by such a large margin that their vote didn't matter--and thus stayed home.
Top of pageBottom of page

Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4500
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 1:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the info Professorscott... looks like Macomb County did something right! Perhaps they're not as "hick" as some on this forum like to claim... :-)
Top of pageBottom of page

Danny
Member
Username: Danny

Post Number: 6018
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 9:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The racist folks in Livonia have spoken. They don't want SMART bus system in their neighborhood and that's final. We must respect their decision. They will reap what they sow.
Top of pageBottom of page

Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman

Post Number: 410
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was an article in the Livonia paper. There is lots of industry support to get Livonia back and I'm very fortunate in my opinion to work for a company that supported and still supports the TRU and everyone else that tried to keep SMART in Livonia.

The racist folks were able to sway the vote because there were too many problems with keeping SMART. It was the late DDOT buses and the serious lack of mass transit leaders in Lansing that helped our city council get their way to load their pockets without a fight to keep and protect federal and state transit funding.

The leaders who represented Livonia for SMART supported the Beck Road expansion and the new freeway interchange in Livingston County.

Livonia, like the rest of the inner suburbs needs leaders that will fight to stop these freeways that require large tax increases without improving or protecting existing transportation needs including SMART and DDOT.

Today, I'm designing a new website devoted to the return of the large SMART buses. I'm hoping to get help from SMART and others to ensure that we can all work together to make the best uses of our limited transportation tax dollars as possible.

As always, I open to suggestions and if I don't get my bus service back then that’s okay because I care about others and what I really want is to see Detroit get the public transit system that we as taxpayers deserve and to see the minorities and the low income win their case in Livonia in accordance with our civil rights and the protections of federal and state ADA funding.

And, yes Macomb did it right but we still need to fill up the buses with jobs and industry support and we did just that in Livonia.

But, the racists and the freeway lobbyists both won anyway. So, remember the forty five percent of us and all you DY'er will know that we will be BACK, if you want us and support us.

(Message edited by Trainman on June 10, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1370
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 2:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

is it at all conceivable to you clowns that someone could want to opt out of SMART and yet NOT be racist?

and btw, SMART's positive effect on local economies is vastly overrated...just look at Plymouth, Northville and Canton for proof...all three opted out of SMART in the 1990s and all three are doing wonderful...

funny, though, how I don't hear you calling them racists...I guess racism only exits east of Haggerty road....

you guys just don't get it and I doubt you ever will
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1371
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 2:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"But, the racists and the freeway lobbyists both won anyway. So, remember the forty five percent of us and all you DY'er will know that we will be BACK, if you want us and support us. "

maybe if you call the residents of Livonia racists a few hundred more times, you'll get them to want to help you.. ::rolls eyes into back of head::
Top of pageBottom of page

Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2911
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 3:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Canton is a piece of shit and quite honestly too far away to be served by a suburban bus system. It's closer to Ann Arbor and it would be more appropriate for A2 to expand AATA to Canton because I'm sure more people work in A2 then Detroit. People who move there move that far away so that they'll never want or need a bus. Livonia is still a craphole, but it has a more substantial amount of downtown workers-- people who could theoretically use a bus, if available, if they ever wean themselves off their hoopties.

Thejesus, consider the source of the racist comment...
Top of pageBottom of page

Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 557
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 3:52 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This quote is from the Vancouver Bus Riders Union. They fight for better transit in Vancouver, and one of the issues they faught for, was to bring back the Night Owl bus service that was cut due to budget cuts. The Night Own service provided overnight transit to Vancouver and all its suburbs. Since their fight Night Owl service has been brought back, but it is more limited, and does not serve all suburbs anymore. So the following quote deals with that, in their fight to get overnight service to all suburbs.

I think this quote pertains to Metro Detroit very well. And that every suburb and city in the region should have buses. For Metro Detroit this would not just be late night service, but all day service :-)

----

Transit is a Human Right

The lack of late night buses constitutes a violation of the rights of the transit dependent, as outlined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. The transit dependent have the right, as outlined in Article 21 to “ a job with just and favorable conditions of work and a living wage”71. In order to access jobs, working people in the dispersed Greater Vancouver Region require affordable and accessible public transit 24 hours a day, seven days a week.

71 United Nations, “Universal Declaration of Human Rights Article 21”
Transit dependent people also have right to “a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family”72, which includes personal safety and access to the political, economic and social life of the region. The Universal Declaration of Human Rights explicitly outlines “everyone has the right of equal access to public service in his country”. Transit dependent people currently do not have equal access to social services such as affordable housing, health care, education and others. In order to access these services, transit dependent people need affordable, reliable transit running late into the night seven days a week.
Top of pageBottom of page

Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5621
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess you can just post a sentence of schit to start a thread and never get on topic, so here's the damn article, jeeze. Seriously, what's with people posting a news story, but never posting any kind of link to verify it?

http://www.macombdaily.com/sto ries/061007/loc_dirks001.shtml
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1373
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 5:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mike:

a couple of points...

first, no government is obligated to follow the UDHR, so simply stating that some organization thinks that a certain group of people have the right to charge me for their transportation expenses doesn't mean anything...

second, I just went to the UN's website and couldn't find the language you posted about a right to a job anywhere in the UDHR... http://www.un.org/Overview/rig hts.html

third, the language you quoted that I couldn't find doesn't imply the right to a job, it implies the right to just and favorable conditions and a living wage if you are lucky enough to have a job

finally, the right to equal access to public services is not applicable in this situation
Top of pageBottom of page

Danny
Member
Username: Danny

Post Number: 6020
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Therefore Miketoronto,

Your comments is NON-SEQUITUR!
Top of pageBottom of page

Ro_resident
Member
Username: Ro_resident

Post Number: 249
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The SMART board has already hired Hayes Jones as general manager to replace Dan Dirks.
http://www.smartbus.org/Smart/ News+and+Info/Press+Releases/S MART+Board+Selects+Hayes+Jones +as+New+General+Manager.htm

In other SMART news, they will be moving their administrative offices to the Buhl Building this summer.
Top of pageBottom of page

Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2912
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 6:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you know where they are located now?
Top of pageBottom of page

Lmichigan
Member
Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5624
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 6:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A quick search of their website shows that their head offices are located at 660 Woodward Avenue, which is the First National Building on Campus Martius, I believe. To me, that's really kind of ironic considering their mission and where they offer their service.
Top of pageBottom of page

Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 219
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 7:23 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why? They're a commuter service connecting downtown to the suburbs. Downtown is the hub of their activity, where all the buses from the outer rings converge. To me, the location makes perfect sense. If they were headquartered in Livonia, now that would be ironic.
Top of pageBottom of page

Mackinaw
Member
Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2914
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 7:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree. Nothing wrong with being located in their hub. I was just wondering if maybe they were located in a central/inner suburb and were moving to the city. ...the occupancy in the First National Building cannot be good after this.
Top of pageBottom of page

Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman

Post Number: 413
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

TheJesus the following does NOT mean that the voters east of haggerty road are racists.


"But, the racists and the freeway lobbyists both won anyway. So, remember the forty five percent of us and all you DY'er will know that we will be BACK, if you want us and support us. "


SMART management supported the illegitimate and incompetent DARTA agreement which denied equal funding to minorities and the low-income. This was by far the primary reason Livonia lost the large buses and shows with much evidence that the racist attitudes of separation is not in Livonia but instead is by some of our elected officials who know nothing about mass transit funding and/or are racists.

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it’s a DUCK.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thnk2mch
Member
Username: Thnk2mch

Post Number: 948
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 9:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How far is Livonia, anyways?



Top of pageBottom of page

Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 558
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cool article. I want that job :-)
I would love to run SMART or DDOT.
First I need my urban planning degree :-)

But I have many change I would start with SMART.

Thejesus. You better hope you never become transit dependant. Because your tune will change pretty quick. I am sure many people don't like paying taxes that help support the main road near your house, either. Maybe they should pull funding for that and make you pay for it.
Like really. You live in Metro region. Public transit is needed, and all citizens need to fund it. I don't understand how people have a hard time grasping that fact.

America has the worst transportation system in the developed world. Less then half of American's have access to bus services within walking distance of their homes. And even less are walking distance to full service routes that operate seven days a week.

In Metro Detroit that stat rings home very well. Less then half of Metro Detroit homes and business are within walking distance of full service bus routes.

Infact, there are only FOUR routes in the entire SMART system that operate seven days a week from early morning till late at night(well if you count 11PM as late).
FOUR route people in a region of 4 million operating in a huge suburban area seven days a week. That is bad. And yes you should pay more Thejesus to fund more services.

People look at the SMART map it looks like a lot of routes. But really there are only FOUR routes that really provide full service.

(Message edited by miketoronto on June 10, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1374
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 10:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"You better hope you never become transit dependant. Because your tune will change pretty quick."

Perhaps. But me looking out for my own interests in that situation wouldn't necessarily mean I'm right.

"America has the worst transportation system in the developed world. Less then half of American's have access to bus services within walking distance of their homes."

And yet we're the wealthiest, most prosperous country in the would. Go figure.
Top of pageBottom of page

Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 559
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 10:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"And yet we're the wealthiest, most prosperous country in the would. Go figure."

Which makes the fact that so many American's have no access to transit even more of a disgrace.

American's are not that must more wealthy. You guys spend so much money on cars, that you have no money for other things. Which explains Wal-Mart. American's spend the most on transporation out of all the developed nations.

And your family incomes are no different then those of Canadian's, Australians, and other developed nations. Infact taking into account how much money you spend on cars, people in other nations have more money to play around with then American's do.
Top of pageBottom of page

Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman

Post Number: 414
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 11:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miketoronto, what do you think of my plan to save SMART? I want to get multiple tax mechanisms to fund the SMART operating budget because in Livonia, many residents complained that Dearborn has twice the service. If Livonia residents knew that the state would pay for 24/7 service to the downtown and the airport that they would then contribute with feeder lines. We do this for roads, by paying for our streets with the city property tax, knowing the state will pay for the nearby freeway. Yet, when I explain this at meetings, I'm told that we must replace state taxes with local taxes because of the lack of state funds.

So, what do you think of my idea of multiple tax mechanisms and more industry supports as detailed in this link? What improvements are needed? I want to take actions to get better mass transit but in Michigan, we just are not seeing enough investments according to many sources. I think we need to charge higher taxes to land developers and give tax breaks for those who help our inner cities. What are your ideas on this? I really think we need lots of action to get things done as opposed to quick fixes and tax increases to cover higher health insurance. I need more ideas to help SMART because it is a fact that without public bus service that rail will never work. In cities such as Toronto, the buses are needed to get people to the rail line and in Detroit, the rail service will just cost too much without connecting the bus lines. So, what can we do about this? I think you have some answers because in Toronto, mass transit does work at moving people around. How does Toronto pay for mass transit?

http://savethefueltax.tripod.c om/petition.html
Top of pageBottom of page

Ray
Member
Username: Ray

Post Number: 911
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Sunday, June 10, 2007 - 11:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am a huge fan of mass transit, but I think we need to be careful calling it a human right.

It sounds like a step toward socialism, which I think would be monumental disaster for everyone in society.

Plus, tactically, I can't think of anything more likely to incite opponents of mass transit than calling it a human right.
Top of pageBottom of page

Danny
Member
Username: Danny

Post Number: 6025
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 7:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes Trainman,

Those racist folks in Nazi Livonia really keep SMART bus system out. They have no ideal what they are doing to public transit. You can keep on fighting to bring SMART bus back to Livonia. But those folks have spoken and let them pay the price for their decisions Their doom will come sooner than you think. While you at it. Make a proposal to bring the SMART bus back to Northville and Canton TWP, too.

Every city in metro-Detroit area should join the public transit bandwagon for when the gas prices go back up again. They might as well take the bus to work.

(Message edited by danny on June 11, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Dexterpointing
Member
Username: Dexterpointing

Post Number: 120
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 8:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

WOW, racist Livonia , America has the worst transit system?

Do you guys just pull remarks out of your asses and present them as fact?

It just seems funny to me that everytime a topic comes up and someone does'nt like the outcome, they pull the race card or bash america.

hey, if you do not like the city or the country for that matter feel free to move to one of those cities or countries which are better.

did it ever occur to you that the city of Livonia does not want easy access to its property or citizens?
Why would a thriving city invite scrappers, thieves and bums by setting up mass transit they really do not want or need?

and how the hell do you figure america's transit is the worst. ever been to europe, asia, russia or how about one of those peachy 3rd world numbers you liberal geniuses are always praising?
Top of pageBottom of page

Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 560
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 9:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dexterpointing America does have the worst transportation system in the western world of developed world. The fact that almost all metro regions have very little region wide bus services, and the fact that intercity service totally sucks in most areas of the USA shows that.

Have you ever seen the service in other countries? Detroit gets like 5 buses a day to Chicago. If Detroit and Chicago were in England for example, they would have high-speed trains operating about every half hour between each other.

No other country had a city of over one million without Sunday bus service(Phoenix).

And it has to be brought to the table just how bad the transportation system is in the USA, or nothing will be fixed.

And Livonia is one of the great examples of just how bad it is.

And Livonia is not a thriving city. It is a section of Detroit. It does not matter if they have a seperate city council. At the end of the day, its just another area of Metro Detroit, which really is one big city, no matter how much people pretend it is not. And all sections of a city should have transit.

Metro Detroit suburbs should be ashamed of themselves for acting like this. I have a great aunt and uncle who live in the suburbs of Detroit, and now he can't drive as much. And they are basically stranded most of the time. Those little community shuttles have to be booked way in advance and are very limited. And they basically have no bus service near their home, except a bus that makes like two runs a day. So sad.
Top of pageBottom of page

Dexterpointing
Member
Username: Dexterpointing

Post Number: 122
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 9:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote;

And Livonia is not a thriving city. It is a section of Detroit.


it is not a part of the City of Detroit. It is its own city. Thats the problem, too many want to lump in all the burbs with Detroit.
The burbs have noting to do with the city.


And no, America does not have the worst transit system. YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THRIVING CITIES LIKE LONDON, TOKYO AND THE LIKES. oF COURSE they will have more transit. Hell look at thriving cities in the U.S., they have great transportation also.
Look at the mass transit in the northeast corridor of the U.S. It is unmatched anywhere in the damn world.
IF YOU LIVE ANYWHERE ALONG THE EASTERN SEABOARD you can catch a bus, train, trolley,train,subway,taxi, private car service etc to anywhere in the world. you do not need a car and many people take advantage of that.
detroits damn problem is everyone is too damn lazy to catch a bus, so why waste the money?
After all, one must pose and posture for strangers to awe at their new vehicle mustn't they?
And another thing, for you to want to induct Livonia into the city of Detroit is unfair to Livonia's residents especially if they do not want or feel a part of the city.

Hell, might as well induct Bangledesh into the U.S. also then, I hear they have transit troubles too.

(Message edited by dexterpointing on June 11, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Oldredfordette
Member
Username: Oldredfordette

Post Number: 1965
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 9:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

No, he's talking about the way other countries connect their cities by rail or bus. If Detroit and it's surrounding suburbs didn't hate each other so much you could have this conversation clearly.From London, you can get almost everywhere in England by rail. In Europe, from thriving city to small hamlets, you can get there by rail. It used to be like that in America, gone gone gone.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1376
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 10:00 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^while I wouldn't go so far as to say the 'burbs have nothing to do with Detroit, people from Detroit do tend to vastly overstate the city of Detroit's importance to the health and continued existence of the suburbs...

I grew up with some people who have never even been to Detroit once in their lives, and yet they've enjoyed ample entertainment and shopping, graduated from college and are lucratively employed (which isn't surprising when you consider that Southfield alone has more commercial office space than Detroit)
Top of pageBottom of page

Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 561
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wrong Dexterpointing. The transit in the North East is not that good by world standards, and the transit use % shows that. Once you get outside of the city limits of Philly, NYC, Boston, etc, you run into the same problems you do in Detroit. In Boston most suburban bus lines end at 7PM for example. Same problem.

The North East has just as much problems, and the services are far from world class standards outside the core inner cities.

And it does not matter if it is a seperate city council. All the suburbs and the City of Detroit form one region and city. And that is Detroit, if you like it or not. People do not visit Detroit and go "oh we are in Livonia". When my family visits for example, they consider everthing from like 25 Mile Road and south as Detroit. You are really one city with different city councils just like everywhere else. Time to start acting as one.

And about Southfield. Southfield does not have more office space then Detroit. Southfield covers a large land area, and if you include the entire City of Detroit, or even the amount of land that Southfield covers, then Detroit would have more office space.
Southfield always says they have more office space, but thats because they on;y count the 1sq mile area of downtown Detroit for office space.
Top of pageBottom of page

Dexterpointing
Member
Username: Dexterpointing

Post Number: 123
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 11:05 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote;

The North East has just as much problems, and the services are far from world class standards outside the core inner cities.


WRONG******

THE NORTHEAST DOES NOT HAVE THE SAME PROBLEMS and the transit here is tops by world standards.
You cannot begin to compare detroit with any other major city in the US simply because there is no other city here that has taken the downfall detroit has.
the mass transit in the northest corridor is unmatched regardless of what you would like to say to prove your point.
Transit in the corridor connects all small towns and major cities. Mostly anywhere you live you are near mass transit that runs 24hrs.
Mass transit in this portion of the country does not close down but merely slows down on off hours.
I love it when the bashers come out of the woodwork to try and drill their points across when things dont go their way.

Detroits surrounding cities are not a part of frickin detroit. Stop trying to lump them all in together dammit.
When people I know are going home they say either Michigan or actually name the town they live in.
They dont pretend they are from big bad detroit. They are proud of the towns they come from.

(Message edited by dexterpointing on June 11, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 562
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 11:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote
---
When people I know are going home they say either Michigan or actually name the town they live in.
They dont pretend they are from big bad detroit. They are proud of the towns they come from.
----

Sorry dude, but Detroit does not end at 8 Mile Road. And untill the suburbanites figure that out, the public transit picture will never get fixed.

You are all one region and city if you like it or not.
The suburbs need an attitude adjustment, and need to understand Downtown Detroit is more important then them.

You go to Melbourne for example, and suburbs one hour from the downtown area that are their own city councils still say they are from "Melbourne", and they fight for the rights of the central downtown and city area.

Time for Detroit's suburbs to think regionally. And that can start with transit.
Top of pageBottom of page

Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2624
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 11:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT THRIVING CITIES LIKE LONDON, TOKYO AND THE LIKES. oF COURSE they will have more transit. Hell look at thriving cities in the U.S., they have great transportation also.



Coincidence???

quote:

I grew up with some people who have never even been to Detroit once in their lives, and yet they've enjoyed ample entertainment and shopping, graduated from college and are lucratively employed (which isn't surprising when you consider that Southfield alone has more commercial office space than Detroit)



Except Michigan bleeds college graduates faster than any other state. And then there's that pesky employment problem and other quality of life issues, significantly impacted by the horrible inefficiency of Detroit's (largely) auto-only transportation system.
Top of pageBottom of page

Dexterpointing
Member
Username: Dexterpointing

Post Number: 124
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Sorry dude, but Detroit does not end at 8 Mile Road.


Yes, it does end at 8 mile road.




Quote:
And untill the suburbanites figure that out, the public transit picture will never get fixed.


Until the city of Detroit figures out that it needs to clean up its own mess and not count on the money from the burbs detroit's public transit will never get fixed and thats all that needs to be said about that.
Top of pageBottom of page

Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 941
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 12:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"And yet we're the wealthiest, most prosperous country in the would. Go figure."

And how was that built?

ETA: Detroit was once one of the most properous cities in the world.

(Message edited by iheartthed on June 11, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1377
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 12:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^um, capitalism and free enterprise...
Top of pageBottom of page

Eric
Member
Username: Eric

Post Number: 856
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Until the city of Detroit figures out that it needs to clean up its own mess and not count on the money from the burbs Detroit's public transit will never get fixed and thats all that needs to be said about that



It's not about fixing Detroit's public it's about fixing the regions public transit. The poor regional public system has put the metro area at competitive disadvantage and whether you admit or not the rest of the world our suburbs as Detroit.
Top of pageBottom of page

Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 563
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dexterpointing I am surprised you are on a forum like this considering how much you seem to hate Detroit City.

The entire region has to work as one, including the suburbs. Because all problems, in Detroit or in the suburbs are regional problems.

And atleast Detroit City has buses running 24 hours and seven days a week. Its the suburbs that need more transit, not less.

There is a reason the region is called METRO DETROIT. Because you are all one region and city when it comes down to it. Cities don't stop at city limits. And the buses should not stop at city limits either.

I say that if the suburbs do not start working with Detroit to fix regional problems like transit. Then i think a forced merger should be done, merging city and suburbs into one government. Because that may be the only way to get things done and teach the suburbs a lesson at the same time.

(Message edited by miketoronto on June 11, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Dexterpointing
Member
Username: Dexterpointing

Post Number: 125
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 12:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

It's not about fixing Detroit's public it's about fixing the regions public transit.


The above statement I can agree with but first you need to figure out how to get the population to grow.
Mass transit costs, and it aint cheap.
Top of pageBottom of page

Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2625
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The above statement I can agree with but first you need to figure out how to get the population to grow.
Mass transit costs, and it aint cheap.



No, but every other region seems to be able to find a solution. Every region, that is, except Detroit. How can you NOT afford to have decent public transportation?
Top of pageBottom of page

Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto

Post Number: 564
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mass transit was only costing the average Livonia household $65 bucks a year on thair taxes. Even if you were to almost double that amount to 100 bucks, its not that much to ask.
Funny how you don't mind paying taxes for roads.

I know this is for Toronto. But this is the break down we got from the City of Toronto on where our property taxes go. As you can see, transit does not cost that much. I only listed the services down to transit.

On Municipal Property Tax of $2,174.60 a year, your money goes to the following.

Police Service: $531.00

Debt Charges: $265.00

Fire Service: $226.00

Social Services: $182.00

Shelter, Support, and Housing: $173.00

Toronto Transit: $160.00


Public transit really does not cost that much. You are also saving money in the long run, becuase your kids don't need cars, etc. We pay $125 a year on our tax bill for transit. But we also save over 10 grand a year, because my family only has one car. No need for cars for each family member.


(Message edited by miketoronto on June 11, 2007)

(Message edited by miketoronto on June 11, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 943
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"^um, capitalism and free enterprise..."

And a damn good transportation network for it's time.
Top of pageBottom of page

Eric
Member
Username: Eric

Post Number: 857
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The above statement I can agree with but first you need to figure out how to get the population to grow.
Mass transit costs, and it ain't cheap.



Population growth comes with jobs and they're going to cities/regions that offer better mass transit. It's not the only issue for job attraction here, but it's a major one. St Louis a city that lost a higher percentage of it peak population than Detroit started light system about 10 years and now it's population has stabilize, maybe even rise. I say we can't afford not to invest mass transit.
Top of pageBottom of page

Dexterpointing
Member
Username: Dexterpointing

Post Number: 126
Registered: 05-2007
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

No, but every other region seems to be able to find a solution. Every region, that is, except Detroit. How can you NOT afford to have decent public transportation?


Thats because every other metro area conforms and changes with the times. Detroit refuses to drop the union shop mentality which is why no one wants to do business there.
If I had my place of business there I certainly wouldn't like my employees or some ragtag union rep trying to tell me how to run my place of business especially if I am doing the right thing.
Seems to me people think they are worth far more than they really are.

And before you proud off the wall union members start bashing me just take a moment and think about it.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1378
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Mass transit was only costing the average Livonia household $65 bucks a year on thair taxes. Even if you were to almost double that amount to 100 bucks, its not that much to ask."

getting $100 per household to build a monument Eminem in the town square isn't that much to ask either, but that doesn't make it a good f*cking idea

"Funny how you don't mind paying taxes for roads."

because we drive on the roads you dumbshit
Top of pageBottom of page

Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9379
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Refine those numbers since the vast majority is going into transit, just a Livonia run transit system. I believe the net savings to Livonia would be $400K/yr, hardly $100 per household.

According to SEMCOG there are 37,657 hoseholds in Livonia, 39,757 housing units. The 400K divided by the number of housing units is about a total savings of $10 per year.

So can people that don't use the roads opt out of the expense?
Top of pageBottom of page

Eric
Member
Username: Eric

Post Number: 858
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

people from Detroit do tend to vastly overstate the city of Detroit's importance to the health and continued existence of the suburbs...



If you haven't noticed to no region thrives without healthy central city

quote:

getting $100 per household to build a monument Eminem in the town square isn't that much to ask either, but that doesn't make it a good f*cking idea



Except that ensuring that one the largest suburbs in the region has a good mass transit with central central city would be considered a good idea everywhere else.
Top of pageBottom of page

Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9380
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eric - See my above post about the $100 per household.
Top of pageBottom of page

Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2628
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

"Funny how you don't mind paying taxes for roads."

because we drive on the roads you dumbshit



I pay taxes that go toward roads, but I don't drive at all. You dumb shit.

Gee, I certainly can't figure out why Michigan is going into the toilet. Maybe it's because the state is filled with selfish rednecks who can't see the big picture? It's hard to say.
Top of pageBottom of page

Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9381
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't you get it Dan - everyone should pay for raods but only users of mass transit should fund that.

At least that's what the people in this ignorant state seem to believe. I sure how LBP gets his billions to widen I-75.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1379
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"So can people that don't use the roads opt out of the expense?"

everyone uses the roads, so no. but you go ahead and ask the state of Michigan if they'll let you not pay for roads you don't use and see what their response is...

in this case, we didn't need to ask anyone since it was our decision to opt into SMART, and thus our decisions to opt out.
Top of pageBottom of page

Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9382
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

everyone uses the roads



Have you contacted everyone?

At least your willing to admit that your hypocritical in your beliefs.
Top of pageBottom of page

Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2629
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't have any kids in school. Can I opt out of paying taxes for that too?

Michigan = Mississippi of the Midwest. Good luck in your race to the bottom. You may beat Ohio yet!
Top of pageBottom of page

Eric
Member
Username: Eric

Post Number: 859
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah and I haven't called the police, fire or EMS in years can I get a refund?
Top of pageBottom of page

Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9384
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 2:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PS - My 400K numbers are based upon an article of the estimate that Livonia would spend for internal transportation.

I will try to find the article to confirm.

Eric - Those are necessary because people that can afford cars might need them.
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1380
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 3:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I don't have any kids in school. Can I opt out of paying taxes for that too?"

Nope, because it was never your choice to opt in, for obvious reasons...
Top of pageBottom of page

Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2630
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Nope, because it was never your choice to opt in, for obvious reasons...



Huh???
Top of pageBottom of page

Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 1381
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"At least your willing to admit that your hypocritical in your beliefs."

not at all...it's perfectly logical...if you use a service, then you should have to pay for it...

your face an uphill battle in your quest to convince people otherwise
Top of pageBottom of page

Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 431
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is getting silly. Let's reset.

Even people who have children and choose to home school them or to send them to private or parochial schools have to pay taxes to the public school system. It's considered a basic government service, like police protection, parks, libraries and water service.

The question is how do we divide the pie. In metro Detroit, more than other regions, we have chosen to spend more on new and wider roads and less on public transportation. (We don't properly maintain the roads, but that's a different issue; the fact is, we built 'em.) We also spend money differently in other areas but that's too broad, and off-topic.

Very few people get to choose where they work based on the convenience of the location, these days. Jobs are where they are. More than in most other regions, a person who has no car, or has no license, or can't afford to drive with $3.00 gasoline, has got a tough time ahead of him trying to use public transportation to get to work.

No major region relies entirely on buses, as we do. The biggest issues for transit riders are that the buses on most routes don't come frequently enough and are slow. I've heard DDOT is not reliable but that has not been my personal experience, though every now and then I see a DDOT bus out of service at the side of a road.

Any kind of train - commuter, light rail or whatever - makes the entire system more efficient by moving larger numbers more quickly and by enabling the bus systems to serve more of a connecting role. The question in metro Detroit is, do we have our act together enough to make the improvements every other big-city region has made, or do we not?
Top of pageBottom of page

Danny
Member
Username: Danny

Post Number: 6029
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 8:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Miketoronto

That's right all U.S. major cities should have mass transit system. But has to be within the request of the people and government bureaucracy and lobbyists.
Top of pageBottom of page

Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman

Post Number: 415
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 8:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The campaign to keep SMART in Livonia was supported by false propagandas and
empty promises. The Transportation Riders United – TRU came to Livonia looking through rose colored glasses and lost as a result. They were unprepared. No real match
as those they picked to debate the city council blew it by not clearly defining any purpose to stay with SMART.

SMART no longer qualifies for federal transit grants for minorities or the low-income as a direct result of the Livonia opt. out. Our votes in Livonia did not count because the DARTA agreement was illegal at the time. The newspapers and other reliable sources showed the
cost of the DARTA was over $200 Million plus an additional $70 Million per year without any adjustments for inflation AND without any viable federal or state funding sources.
The agreement was not included in the three county millage votes.

Livonia stood up for human rights, proving that even crippling the handicapped is fair
game for forced tax increases without a vote to raise and protect existing tax mechanisms.
Some of our leaders speak without shame in claiming that the state fuel tax is
no longer a viable means to pay for basic public bus service. These same officials refuse to allow multiple tax mechanism to protect incompetence and discourage competition.

Too few of us are willing to face the truth about the need to vote in place real mass transit leadership into our federal and state governments who are God loving people that can and will stop the freeway and rail expansions until Detroit has decent, clean safe, reliable, cost effective public bus systems that serves Detroit and all the inner suburbs. We need to attack M.O.S.E.S and the TRU to get them on television and in the newspapers because they are not getting the real facts to the voting public at this time. They are presently more interested in raising taxes then gaining industry support, much the same as our lazy government leaders who do nothing to attack SMART and DDOT who caused the Livonia opt out without the need for help from their opponents.

If the new manager of SMART does not "Bring Back Livonia" then the answer is NO. It is against the morals of mainstream religious leaders to leave Livonia out. When one crosses Rouge Park and then Inkster Road, the problems and the cost of government do not change. There are thousands of Detroit residents moving to Livonia and they will demand good schools and public transit, just like they did in Detroit. Livonia will be BACK. So, write to SMART today and tell them to come back to Livonia.

Livonia residents are martyrs in the fight against top
transportation officials at SEMCOG and MDOT meetings
who pretended to listen while being paid six figure salaries, drove big cars, never or rarely ever used
public transit and know nothing about how to survive on low Wal-Mart wages with little or no benefits.

(Message edited by Trainman on June 11, 2007)
Top of pageBottom of page

Danny
Member
Username: Danny

Post Number: 6032
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 9:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Trainman,

You really up to bring the SMART Bus system back to Nazi-Livonia. You can also do a campaign to bring the SMART bus back to Northville and Canton TWP, too.
Top of pageBottom of page

Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman

Post Number: 416
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Monday, June 11, 2007 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Northville and Canton are not inner suburbs that are losing population as a direct result of discrimination.

Danny, Canton and Northville never had large bus service.

Danny, the loss of state and federal funds to Detroit and Livonia is grossly immoral without alternative taxes such as Proposal S. The state cuts to SMART are counter productive in the best interests and sound economic principles of our entire state.

Danny and others in DY, what is a good name for the Bring Back Livonia campaign? Imagine if everyone voted NO unless the large buses came back to Livonia?

Why not? We have nothing to lose but more empty promises.

Danny, by federal law, if Proposal S loses the state is required to pay and all the bus drivers jobs are protected.

Danny, if you vote in higher local taxes you will not get for federal or state support.

And, Wal-Mart will still pay third world wages while the new SMART leader never never comes to Wal-Mart in Livonia to get more riders.

Danny, we must attack the new SMART manager hard and fast because the old management failed. Do you know that 72 percent of the voting public support mass transit taxes? Yes, this is a fact and our government and transit providers know this and will use this fact to milk the taxpayers like a bunch of cows if people like you and I don't go after them.

I'm hoping the new manager of SMART can get more industry support and to get both federal and state funds from the tax on fuel.

Then, not only Livonia will opt. in but all of Wayne, Oakland and Macomb counties. Industry support is the key factor to make this work and to get more jobs and tourists.

Add Your Message Here
Posting is currently disabled in this topic. Contact your discussion moderator for more information.