Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 8 Mile-Woodward mall plan gets boost Previous Next
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Kpm
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Username: Kpm

Post Number: 45
Registered: 08-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 8:17 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

8 Mile-Woodward mall plan gets boost
Senate panel OKs Detroit tax deal

June 14, 2007
BY BOWDEYA TWEH and JEWEL GOPWANI
FREE PRESS STAFF WRITERS

Detroit took a major step toward getting a long-awaited retail development Wednesday as a bill allowing for the creation of an outdoor mall at 8 Mile and Woodward moved out of a state Senate committee...

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20070614/BUSINES S06/706140428
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 1110
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 8:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While some might argue that any development is good, I am kind of concerned about this one. Woodward and Eight Mile are the two most famous roads in Detroit. So it seems to me that whatever goes in there needs to be more than a strip mall and celebrate the intersection. It does sound as though they are planning something nicer, "The project is being pitched as an outdoor lifestyle center, like the Village of Rochester Hills, which has attracted major retailers such as Victoria's Secret and the Gap that line a main street that leads to the anchor store, Parisian." I suppose some landmark or something would at least be appropriate.
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 1920
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 8:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it should be called the "Last Chance Shopping Centre"
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2951
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 8:58 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know the plan will be improved, but I'm a little more eager to see this happen now because the attitude of the developer towards creating a good design and not just another standard mall is evident. I really believe in the ability of the surrounding community to support it. Palmer Woods, University District, Ferndale and Royal Oak. Eastland is heavily frequented by suburbanites. A mall that's much nicer, and more centrally located, should do much better.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 596
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 9:29 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is a pretty exciting project to me. I hope they are able to emphasize pedestrian traffic over automobile traffic, so people want to walk around and spend some time there instead of just moving their car each time they want to go to a new store.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 1025
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 9:51 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I cant stand freep.com posters.
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Redvetred
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Username: Redvetred

Post Number: 28
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 9:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Psip, you must be referring to the "Last Chance" Bar formerly located right on the corner of Eight Mile and Woodward. A neighbor was a bartender there and my father hung out there. I think it was demolished prior to me being of legal drinking age.

Security should be easier there since no residential neighborhood is close by but traffic may be another problem altogether.
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Defendbrooklyn
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Username: Defendbrooklyn

Post Number: 279
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 10:08 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree with lodge...I hope we can easily walk to and around the structure...Also, a unique landmark would be appropriate. What types of stores will the mall house. Is JCPenny still in the mix.

What is ideal?

The new road construction in that area is nice...
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Defendbrooklyn
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Username: Defendbrooklyn

Post Number: 280
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 10:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Never mind about the stores....i should of read the article...

Barnes and Noble would be GREAT!
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 6047
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 10:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I recently heard that Granholm sign a bill to eliminate the SBT and install a new business incentives to bring international businesses and more jobs to Michigan.

YAY!!! GRANHOLM

A liberal leader who does action NOT TALK!
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 1921
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 10:13 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Redvetred :-)
I think it was closed in 76-77 somewhere around then.
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Masterblaster
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Username: Masterblaster

Post Number: 49
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 10:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The neighborhoods of Palmer Woods, University District, Green Acres, Sherwood Forest, Detroit Golf Club, and the Bagley Community already have a shopping district/mall that they can patronize. It's called the "AVENUE OF FASHION" and it's on Livernois around Curtis Street up to about 8 Mile Road.

Instead of building another shopping district. Why don't they revitalize one that ALREADY EXISTS!!!

The new JC Penny that is going in that mall could be located where the Parking lot of the soon to close Farmer Jacks is. They could build a multi-level underground parking garage under the new J.C. Penny to serve as parking for not only the J.C. Penny, but also the surrounding businesses.

IT COULD BE BEAUTIFUL!!!! A charming urban, upscale shopping district integrated into upscale neighborhoods. Where is the vision????
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2645
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 10:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Outdoor lifestyle center" is just a euphemism for a strip mall.

What bullshit. The region is already over-retailed, and Detroit has too little urban fabric as it is. Strip malls don't help that. Never mind the permanent traffic disaster it will cause at Woodward and 8 Mile.

Yet more inside-the-box 1950s thinking from the Big Diamond. Yee haw.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 9407
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 11:28 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is an opportunity for jobs in a city with a 15% or so unemployment rate. It is an infill project for a city of 139 Sq. miles that has way too much vacant land. This is an opportunity for Detroiters to be able to spend their money in Detroit.

It might not be the best design but to say that the design trumps the benefits is bs. You seem to think that any planning that works in major cities can work in Detroit but that simply is not true. Detroit is in a very unique situation and needs to address retail needs, employment, filling land, etc.

The challenges in Detroit are not typical to other cities and expecting that we can address development the same way is very shor sighted.
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2547
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 11:28 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The region is over-retailed but the area around 8/Woodward sure isn't. That's why the local residents (including persnickety Palmer Woods folks) support it, and people in Ferndale and Hazel Park are excited to have closer (even walkable) shopping.

Dan, are you familiar with 8/Woodward? It's not "urban", and it's built for high traffic volumes already. Jefferson and Woodward, you'd have a point. 8/Woodward, not so much.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2647
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 11:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

It might not be the best design but to say that the design trumps the benefits is bs. You seem to think that any planning that works in major cities can work in Detroit but that simply is not true. Detroit is in a very unique situation and needs to address retail needs, employment, filling land, etc.



If the design were BETTER, the benefits would be GREATER. In other words, if effort went into revitalizing a neighborhood retail strip, such as the Avenue of Fashion, the benefits could spread outward. This is a self-contained suburban strip piece of shit, whose benefits will be minimal. New jobs at $6/hour? Woo hoo! Detroit is certainly on a roll, isn't it?

Stop making lame excuses for a distinct lack of standards. It's the "take whatever crumbs we can get" attitude that keeps Detroit from improving. Is it really too much to ask a city to behave like a city?

(Message edited by DaninDC on June 14, 2007)
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Llyn
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Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1849
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 12:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The region is already over-retailed, and Detroit has too little urban fabric as it is. Strip malls don't help that. Never mind the permanent traffic disaster it will cause at Woodward and 8 Mile.



Dan, you've got to be kidding. While there is a lot of retail in the Ferndale/R.O. area, there are almost none of the large retailers that people are dissing but probably shop at regularly. I'd love an electronics retailer or major clothing and household retailer or an Office Depot/Staples, etc. near me. The closest comparable is a Home Depot store that's a ten minute drive. The one in Madison Heights is actually as quick for me to reach.

Come for a visit and I'll show you just how wrong you are.

quote:

The neighborhoods of Palmer Woods, University District, Green Acres, Sherwood Forest, Detroit Golf Club, and the Bagley Community already have a shopping district/mall that they can patronize. It's called the "AVENUE OF FASHION" and it's on Livernois around Curtis Street up to about 8 Mile Road.



Fact, they are working on it.

Second, what is there now is: banks, hair salons, specialized clothing stores, and drug stores. Oh yes, and we do have a dry cleaners. It's limited. Take a drive. Do you realize to what an extent people in my neighborhood are forced to shop and eat in Ferndale?

I wish some of you would actually live where I do. There'd be a lot less of this idealistic crap and a little more reality and excitement that something is being built here.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 863
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 12:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Minimal benefit? Try telling that to people who live in this neighborhood. Or have forgotten the lack retail in Detroit? You act like building something suburban in a rather suburban part of the city will compromise it.

Just for your information this area is part of the mayor neighborhood initiative and one of the focuses is on improving that stretch of Livernois. Making more pedestrian friendly, attractive, etc
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2648
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 12:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Second, what is there now is: banks, hair salons, specialized clothing stores, and drug stores. Oh yes, and we do have a dry cleaners.



How is this problematic? Sounds like neighborhood retail to me. What does your vision look like?
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Masterblaster
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Username: Masterblaster

Post Number: 50
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 12:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Llyn - the Avenue of Fashion COULD be that location where you can shop and eat, as opposed to going to Ferndale. Isn't that what it used to be? Currently, it has A LOT of vacant storefronts.

I just wish the millions of $$ that will be spent on this new lifestyle center, could be spent on beautifying and revitalizing that stretch of Livernois.

We do not yet know if the city has any money to go through with the Neighborhood Initiative that the mayor is championing for the Avenue of Fashion.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2955
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 1:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who says this will be neccesarily suburban-looking. Did you get any of the same vibes as me in the story? Sure this will be a low-rise structure with lots of parking...such are the facts of a mall, but this won't be a fortress. If I were to develop a mall in an urban area, stores would bump right up against the street, and you'd have parking at the far ends of the strip, or behind the strip, or across the street with multiple pedestrian bridges leading to the small. That way you provide the neccesary parking, but allow the mall to be complementary to the landscape.

Jt1 hits on the most important point, though. This provides jobs, tax revenue in the city, productive use on a large empty space...and a nice gateway into the city.

If enough money is put in up front, this could be a home run. What I mean, is, if this has a unique design and they don't use crappy materials, etc...and we get something that it is in the same class as Somerset, it will be a destination for a large group of people.

The only thing I feel bad about is the fact that we'll be luring retailers who, ideally, should be downtown. But maybe it is for the best that first we get these retailers into Detroit proper, show them that they can do well, and then they'll look downtown. Likewise for shoppers. Start bringing some people to 8-mile, and then next thing you know they'll want downtown shopping, too.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2650
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 1:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Will this development include housing? No. Will it be single-use zoning, comprised primarily of one-story buildings, with acres of free off-street parking? Yes--ergo, "suburban".

Detroit is only going to get as good a product as it demands. And since you folks are happy with any ole piece of shit, as long as you don't have to cross Big Bad 8 Mile into pastoral Ferndale, then the developer is going to run roughshod over you and give you the cheapest suburban piece of shit he possibly can.

Mark my words.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2957
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 1:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It should include housing, I agree.

But look at what we've got now:
http://local.live.com/default. aspx?v=2&cp=42.445026~-83.1206 65&style=h&lvl=17&tilt=-90&dir =0&alt=-1000&scene=5623073&enc Type=1

How high should our standards be?
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 438
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 1:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Keep in mind, Dan, that the outer portions of the City of Detroit were developed in a suburban fashion from the start. More than in most cities, everyone lives in single family houses or duplexes, most neighborhoods have driveways and some have garages, businesses are located only on main roads and so on.

So this isn't a development going into a very urban-style area to start with. It's more of a dilapidated suburban area. This type of development will improve it more than no development, which is the other realistic option. We can't force developers to do things that make a project economically infeasible; they will simply drop the project.

And for people who ride transit, it makes a great big difference whether something is on the DDOT side of 8 Mile or not. The buses in the area on the DDOT system run more frequently and over more hours than the SMART buses. Plus your DDOT monthly pass doesn't work on SMART, and so on.
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2651
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, I think we're getting into semantics here, over what the definition of "suburban" is. While Detroit has historically been comprised of single-family homes, those homes have had a relatively tight relationship with the street and each other, making the streets walkable. Other large cities have many neighborhoods with single-family homes, yet they do not resemble Troy or Auburn Hills, and neither does Detroit.

Detroit has EVERY right to demand a good design for this project. If the developer can't make money off it, that's his problem. Detroit does not need the congestion brought about by single-use automobile-dependent development, or the environmental problems wrought by additional impervious pavement. Is Detroit looking out for its own well-being (and that of the people), or the developer's?

There is simply no excuse for bad design, which includes the physical layout of the buildings themselves. Just because this particular parcel does not resemble Midtown Manhattan does not mean the final product can look like Great Lakes Crossing.

The corporate whore attitude does not befit such a great city.
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Johnlodge
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Post Number: 607
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think we should cancel the project because some guy in DC doesn't like it.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2653
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I think we should cancel the project because some guy in DC doesn't like it.



Don't be such a boob. Willful idiocy is the biggest plague on this forum.

All I'm saying is that instead of generic suburban schlock, Detroit deserves to have new development be urban in character and contribute to the health of the surrounding area, rather than Xerox the existing suburbs due to a lack of creativity.

Then again, this is also the forum where people argued whether or not a Wal Mart could/should go on the site of Tiger Stadium, but I digress.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4543
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan, have you ever even been to 8 Mile & Woodward?

When you're talking traffic congestion... did you know that there's a triple decker intersection with Woodward bridging over the intersection, 8 Mile tunneling underneath it, and the local traffic at street level.

And this intersection has been handling the Michigan State Fair (which is next door to this shopping plaza) WITH EASE for decades.

So that traffic congestion excuse just doesn't cut it. Traffic at 8 & Woodward is only about 1/2 of what it was in the 1950's (before I-696 was around). So that intersection can handle ANY amount of traffic that that shopping plaza can throw at it, without interfering with Woodward or 8 Mile Rd. traffic flow.

Now that said, I don't know how well that shopping center will do. I look at the Belle Aire Shopping Center near 8 Mile & Van Dyke, and see how poorly that new shopping center is doing. So I am not as upbeat about it as others here.

But traffic congestion? Not an issue.
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Fareastsider
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Username: Fareastsider

Post Number: 432
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would like to compare articles about the Belle Aire Center before it was built and compare them to ones of this project. This is by the way an un biased statement I hope the new project if ever built does well.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2654
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

But traffic congestion? Not an issue.



The shopping center isn't built yet, either.
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Jt1
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Post Number: 9411
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Belle Aire is a different situation since the location makes it seem cut off to many people. I also don't believe that Belle Aire ever had a great selection of stores.

This will have the financial impact of the communities around it as well as quick access along Woodward.

I'm sure that Dan will tell me I'm wrong.
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Johnlodge
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Post Number: 608
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Don't be such a boob. Willful idiocy is the biggest plague on this forum. "

Relax, it was obviously a joke. I already stated above I'd like the place to be pedestrian oriented and not just another strip mall. I just found some humor in the fact that the biggest opponent on this thread doesn't even live here. Like, I'd have a hard time spending all day debating what they're going to build at the intersection down the street from your house that I will never see. (PS yes that intersection is down the street from my house, and I do care about what is built there.) It doesn't need to be God's gift to retail zoning, it just needs to be nice and help spark some redevelopment in that area.
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2655
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^Sorry, johnlodge. I'm just a bit on-edge today. Nothing personal.

I'm just not sure what's more irritating to me--that a developer is going to foist Soylent Green on Detroit, or that the masses are lining up for it. I guess if you've never had steak, you don't realize how shitty McDonald's tastes.
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Jt1
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Post Number: 9412
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I guess if you've never had steak, you don't realize how shitty McDonald's tastes.



McDonalds can be pretty tasty if you haven't been able to eat in a long time. It's all about perspective.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2963
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm agreeing with Dan more now. See my other thread so that we can all be reminded of other cases in which poor design hurt our city.

However, just know that I still support the mall plan with the condition that it isn't another typical mall. In addition, the fact that that parcel is currently nothing and we are not uprooting any exisiting homes and businesses makes this much different than some of my examples.
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Johnlodge
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Post Number: 609
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Could this be another case of the forum getting up in arms about the design of something before anybody has any idea what the design is? Although I agree, the safe bet is that it's a crappy strip mall, but you never know. maybe they will surprise us.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2657
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 2:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

However, just know that I still support the mall plan with the condition that it isn't another typical mall.



Agreed. Historically, however, the builders of these "lifestyle centers" are just strip mall builders who have retooled, rebranded, and remarketed their product to APPEAR "urban". In reality, they tend to behave just like a regular strip shopping center UNLESS certain design objectives are met. An example of the latter would be Crocker Park, in the Cleveland suburb of Westlake, but even then, it's relative isolation amongst generic suburbia overpowers its own design strengths.

(Message edited by DaninDC on June 14, 2007)
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Johnlodge
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Post Number: 610
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 3:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is the forum's take on the "Main Street" retail area in Novi? This area is made to look like a downtown area with sidewalks, and the parking is kept in one area. if you don't know what I mean I am talking about the brick retail development on the north side of Grand River accross from the Mall that has Mongolian BBQ and Post Bar and such in it. I think it's some improvement over the standard strip mall. Thoughts?
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 4544
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 3:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

With 14 lanes of traffic on 8 Mile (8 lanes underground, 6 lanes at street level), and 12 lanes of traffic on Woodward (6 lanes over the bridge, 6 lanes at street level), traffic will NOT be a problem...



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Udmphikapbob
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Username: Udmphikapbob

Post Number: 362
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 3:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, Johnlodge, Main Street Novi has an awful lot of vacancy, for one. So did/does FountainWalk on the other side of Novi Road.
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Masterblaster
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Username: Masterblaster

Post Number: 51
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 3:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Johnlodge wrote:

"What is the forum's take on the "Main Street" retail area in Novi? This area is made to look like a downtown area with sidewalks, and the parking is kept in one area. if you don't know what I mean I am talking about the brick retail development on the north side of Grand River accross from the Mall that has Mongolian BBQ and Post Bar and such in it. I think it's some improvement over the standard strip mall. Thoughts?"

There is already a Main Street area relatively close to 8 Mile and Woodward. It's called "THE AVENUE OF FASHION" (Livernois), but from the responses of the people on this forum so far, nobody thinks that the Avenue of Fashion basically could serve the same purpose as this proposed lifestyle center.

Why re-create something new (the lifestyle center), when there is already something nearby(Livernois) that could the fill same niche, and that is already integrated into the existing well-kept residential neighborhoods?
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Johnlodge
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Post Number: 612
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 3:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Livernois does not have a Barnes and Noble or a JC Penny. Livernois has a lot of boutiques directed solely towards the African-American demographic, as well as a church that seems to be slowly taking over the area bit by bit with purple signs and banners. No, I don't think it could serve the same purpose as this proposed lifestyle center.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2661
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 4:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Livernois does not have a Barnes and Noble or a JC Penny.



But it could.

One thought that hasn't been mentioned yet--how much more difficult this new project will make it to revitalize Livernois, due to market saturation. This project, in effect, will help maintain blight.
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Gistok
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Post Number: 4546
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 4:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan, where do you get your convoluted logic from?

Let's not develop anything new in Detroit, so that none of the older stuff will get hurt in the process.

No, lets just let the suburbs build all the new stuff, since Detroiter's won't bother driving all the way out there, what with all the existing shopping that's available here in Detroit.

Arggggh!!!!

Where's Skulker when you need him...
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2663
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Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 4:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^Well, explain why you want to plop a generic-looking piece of shit into the middle of the city? How is that going to make Detroit attractive compared to another city, let alone any of its own cookie cutter suburbs?

Yeah. People are going to stop fleeing for Chicago and elsewhere because of some plastic fantastic Barnes and Noble set amidst acres of free parking. Don't you get it? Detroit needs to embrace its "Detroit-ness" to survive. If you keep emulating the God-forsaken suburbs, DETROIT WILL DIE. It's that easy.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2974
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 4:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sure, we need SOMETHING there at 8/Wood, but Danindc is not wrong to point out that we have plenty of other retail districts (i.e. Merchant's Row for gosh sake) that continue to be underutilized. Why not be ambitious and make these places the focal point for new retail. With a master plan and some economic incentives, it could happen.

The more I think about it the more I worry that, contrary to what I said earlier, this mall will continue to distract retail from downtown in the same way as Eastland and Northland, the only positive difference being that it is economic activity in the city.
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Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd

Post Number: 1042
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 4:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Economic activity is good, but I get the sense that the merchants on Livernois keep a share of their profit in the community. I see malls as tending to vacuum up any profit and send it to an accounting office that's not in the Midwest, let alone not in Detroit.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 975
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 5:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I want to see someone with the balls to turn Woodward/8 Mile into a giant roundabout.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 11602
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 5:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

It's the "take whatever crumbs we can get" attitude that keeps Detroit from improving.



DaninDC,

Let me start by saying FUCK OFF! Once again, I'm sick and tired of listening to your whiney ass posts from half a nation away. You don't have a clue how much Detroit is improving. You don't live here, you don't see the development, you simply base your opinions on what you read in the papers. The area surrounding my neighborhood, as well as downtown Detroit, and many other areas of the city, have all seen significant improvements over the past 5 years. There is a housing development I can almost see from my front yard which will add about 70 brand new housing units, though has yet to make the papers. There are many other nearby buildings being rehabbed, and lots of improvements and upgrades to many nearby apartment buildings, though you won't read about that in your papers either.

You're just some jackass in DC acting like the typical know-it-all when it comes to Detroit. It should be noted that you don't know shit when it comes to Detroit. You turned your back on Detroit, you left, YOU are part of the reason Detroit isn't living up to YOUR standards in which YOU require. If you wanna help make Detroit the city you want, move back. I know that's asking a lot, that's why I suspect you'll simply continue to bitch from a distance.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2666
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 5:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nothing personal, sport, but sometimes, I find it hard to believe you're a college graduate. Seems that you're the one doing the bitching. Considering that the only place you've ever lived outside of Michigan was the thriving metropolis of Indianapolis (for 2 years) I question if you even know how a healthy city looks, feels, and functions.

Pardon me for thinking out loud and trying to get others to do the same. I guess it's more important that your pride and ego shout down anyone who might disagree with your simple impulses.
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Quozl
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Username: Quozl

Post Number: 753
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 5:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Let me start by saying FUCK OFF!


Is that what that cop told you when you tried explaining your way out of the "alcohol consumption in public view" ticket on the Tiger's Opening Day? IS that what you are going to say to some poor black kid when you have him pulled over for expired tags or putting a can of whoop ass on some poor panhandler when you get your job at the Cop Shop?

Come on Sporto, ease up on the Danno dude. Take some chill pills or head down to Cheli's, I'll buy you a few rounds, you and the Mrs.
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Jjw
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Username: Jjw

Post Number: 332
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 6:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Golly. I hate to admit this but I agree with Dan (a First by the way). What is wrong with asking for the new development to have a touch of class and contribute to a future that is more pedestrian-friendly? But, before I add any more comments, I will refrain until I actually see a picture of the new development. It is possible that all of this debate may be unnecessary. Here's hoping that whatever is built will be state-of-the-art and contribute to a new and better Detroit! (It would be disheartening to see another strip mall in a city and region already overloaded with them).
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 2318
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 6:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Let's start by saying thanks Sport for calling it like you see it.

Why anybody would choose to debate vs. dismiss Dan is beyond my comprehension.

I guess that just makes me a dumb provincial bumpkin, who, if I only had the insight, the education, and the urbanity that our dear friends Dan does, I would be able to say that we should stop all development that does not meet his standards.

Detroit should be rebuilt according to l'enfant's perfectly conceived master plan.

If only Dan would come back on his white horse and save us all from ourselves. We are so dumb. We are so backward. We are so blind.

Dan, here's an idea -- as you know exactly what will make detroit shine -- put your ideas down in the form of a business plan, go out and raise some funds from the multitude of rich visionaries like yourself - that should be easy, as everybody you deal with is soooo smart they should be able to see that investing in the new high density detroit should be easy money.

Then, once your funds are raised, visit detroit, find some property that is in one of the backwards, low density, suburban-like areas within the city and buy and build.

It should be easy.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2667
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 6:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Detroit should be rebuilt according to l'enfant's perfectly conceived master plan.



Anyone who knows anything about Detroit knows that Judge Woodward's Plan was based on the L'Enfant Plan for DC.

I've never asked anyone on here to kiss my ass--just to THINK before rushing into anything. You have an opportunity to rebuild a great city. Why would you ever want it to look and behave like the generic bullshit suburbia you can find in any metropolitan area?
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 2319
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 6:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why? Because it is all we can afford.

Do you think that nobody here has "thought" before rushing into anything?

Do you think that many of us have not spent a decade or more first dreaming of the perfect urban environment, dismissing gated communities and strip malls? But then realizing after 4,5, 6,10 years of living with virtually no amenities, that waiting for perfection was an attempt in vanity?

Get over yourself. Get over the fact that none of us have every thought about density, and walkability, and public transportation before.

I wrote my honors thesis on the "Pragmatic Constraints on Idealogy" -- while that was more philosophical in nature, after living in detroit for a decade, and having children in the city (before I, like so many others moved) the same constraints apply here -- pragmatism.

Sometimes one is in such a world of hurt that the luxury of idealism does not exist.
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 98
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 7:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

IMO Dan sometimes has some good points, but in this case he is mistaken. 8 Mile is a suburban, auto-oriented corridor and nothing besides a big-box strip mall makes any economic sense.

I think people are reacting more to the constant "DC does it right" refrain. DC does some things right but has so many natural advantages it could hardly fail.

The end product is pretty generic and is limited to a few yuppie/tourist corridors. DC is hardly a model. 60% of the city continues to be terrible and the remainder, while rich and successful, has the sterile, whitebread, corporatized feeling of Maple and Woodward in Birmingham. Unless you're into chain restaurants and government lawyers, there's not much interesting for urbanites in places like Georgetown or Dupont Circle. Philly, Boston and Chicago are much better and NYC is of course in another universe.

Similarly, the suburban transit-oriented successes (Bethesda, Arlington), while booming and environmentally sound, couldn't be more generic. They are basically urbanized versions of Southfield or Troy.

I guess I'm saying metro Detroit is completely different from DC and really can't apply anything from DC to the area. Even if Detroit could take some cues, there are much better models that would preserve the metro area's sense of character.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 11603
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 7:14 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I've never asked anyone on here to kiss my ass



Really? So when you constantly call out our city for it's lack of progress and calling out Detroiters for not demanding more, you don't see yourself asking others to demand what YOU want?

Dabirch,

Thanks. While you may have caught some flak from many of us for jumping ship for a bit, I don't find you bitching and complaining about the progress Detroit has made. You were in Detroit long before I, so you very well know, as you have seen first hand, just how much Detroit has changed in recent years. I'm not sure why Dan has to bring whether or not somebody went to college into the picture, as a high school drop out could recognize that his stupid ass has little clue as to the progress this city is making and has made. I'm sure he drops in to visit family a few times a year, drives around a bit in Detroit, and reads the papers and all of the sudden feels he is an expert on the city. I don't try to get into debates with the guy, it's more of a relief valve that triggers after reading weeks upon weeks of his same old blather. Blah, blah, blah...I'm so cool because I live in DC, you Detroiters should demand more! Yawn.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2981
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 7:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"We are so dumb. We are so backward. We are so blind."

Too many among us are. A classic example is the way that some are so hostile to outside input. This is a freaking internet forum. Of course Dan can at least try to educate us. None of his points on this thread should have their validity predicated on where he currently lives. Bless him for even caring about Detroit from a distance. Will I get in trouble if I go to NY to finish my studies, but keep chiming in around here? I hope not.

Dabirch, with every new development, and every new opportunity that comes up as we head into a brighter future for Detroit, we should take advantage of these moments to once again try to make our city a more appealing place. Dan never said that we are ignorant of the benefits of transit, good design, or density, he merely implored us to strive for all of this here with this newest frontier of development. And sadly, it is true that many in this area are ignorant of the benefits of all these things, or, at the very least, are too stubborn in their ways to change their mind and embrace such ideas. I don't agree that the luxury of idealism-- or the pursuit of perfection for that matter-- should not exist in Detroit. That would be giving up.
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 2320
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 7:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I don't agree that the luxury of idealism-- or the pursuit of perfection for that matter-- should not exist in Detroit.



Say that after you buy a house, pay taxes, get robbed, have your car stolen, drive to the burbs for a big box, have your wife and infant attacked by ghetto dogs, pick up trash so your kid can play at the park, clean up broken glass on your sidewalk or street on an almost daily basis, see hookers walking down the street every day to and from work, see beautiful structures stripped bare and rendered unsalvageable because copper is $3.00 a pound, watch bums shit in the alleys and parks, take you wife and children for a walk run into some deranged person with his cock in his hand, and all the while your taxes go up.

Yeah, I think we need to worry about making 8-mile dense and urban.
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Dbest
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Username: Dbest

Post Number: 29
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 7:43 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm not 100% sure but I believe were I live in Fort Wayne, Indiana we have one of these so called lifestyle centers(Jefferson Pointe shopping center) and while ya they are a bit better than some average strip mall they are very generic(suburban) in there own way, Sorry I cant put up a link with better photos, but heres there web page: www.jeffersonshopping.com Only one picture on the website of the center during the intro slideshow.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2984
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 7:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well that's looking at the bright side, isn't it.

You have your attitude. I'll keep mine.
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 2322
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 7:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

You have your attitude. I'll keep mine.



Until you actually live in the city.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2985
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 8:29 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess that's a dare. I'll keep you posted.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 11604
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 11:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Say that after you buy a house, pay taxes, get robbed, have your car stolen, drive to the burbs for a big box, have your wife and infant attacked by ghetto dogs, pick up trash so your kid can play at the park, clean up broken glass on your sidewalk or street on an almost daily basis, see hookers walking down the street every day to and from work, see beautiful structures stripped bare and rendered unsalvageable because copper is $3.00 a pound, watch bums shit in the alleys and parks, take you wife and children for a walk run into some deranged person with his cock in his hand, and all the while your taxes go up.

Yeah, I think we need to worry about making 8-mile dense and urban.



Touche to Dabirch, for also calling it like you see it! LOL

Once again, to address Dan's comment

quote:

It's the "take whatever crumbs we can get" attitude that keeps Detroit from improving.



I'd like to say that me and my girlfriend spent the evening downtown, getting ice cream from one of the at least 4 ice cream places within a few blocks of Campus Martius. We then sat in Campus Martius for an hour or so with a few dozen others enjoying the park. We watched the fountain, looked at Compuware, the recent addition to the park, the Redico building, a hoppin' Hard Rock cafe, a CVS, and two blocks of Monroe in sight that is now filled with businesses. NONE of this existed 5 years ago.

We had originally planned on stopping into The Well for drinks with friends, but instead I suggested we check out the Riverwalk, now that the extention was open.

As we headed towards the river, we passed many others out and about, walking the city, on a Thursday night. Not something I would have seen 5 years ago. We got to Hart Plaza to see the cleaning crews working away, emptying trash, washing the sidewalks, and keeping things tidy, something you didn't see 5 years ago.

As we strolled down the riverwalk, I looked at many other things that weren't there 5 years ago, such as the Riverwalk itself, the monuments and sculptures, the Wintergarden, the restaurants in the RenCen facing the water, the valet parking, Asiantown, etc.

There were literally hundreds of people along the water tonight. They were fishing, jogging, biking, and simply sitting on the benches. Many of the people were there with their families. This whole scenario was non-existant just 5 years ago, yet here we were on a Thursday night at 10 pm, with many others enjoying the scenery.

So for those who don't understand why I take such offense to Dan's criticisms, it's because I take great pride in this city. I see the improvements first hand, I see how far we have come in the short time I have lived here. So when some stupid ass makes a comment that "attitudes will keep Detroit from improving," I tell him what I am thinking, and that's suggesting he shut the fuck up because he doesn't know what he's talking about. This city is on the rise, and perhaps he's just jealous because he's missing out because he jumped ship a bit too early.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2988
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 11:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I appreciate your story, in addition to the imagery that I cannot now enjoy as I am trapped in quiet old Ann Arbor now.

The city is on the rise. I believe that attitudes have changed a ton in the last five years, and this is part of the amazing transformation we've seen. There are surprisingly few things keeping the city from continuing or increasing the pace our improvement, but lingering attitudes and preconceived notions can hold us back. Again, dreaming and thinking about what would be 'ideal' is totally appropriate in our city.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 865
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 1:17 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I couldn't agree more with Dabrich. Should our idealism get in the way the greater good? There many instance where Detroit doesn't have luxury idealism and this one of them. It's very telling that someone who lives in neighborhood like Llyn is excited about possibility of more retail. While someone in a city without a similar retail shortage turns thier nose up at the project because it's not ideally urban.
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Jjw
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Username: Jjw

Post Number: 333
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 5:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Supersport, With all of the improvements you mention, the city is beginning to be in a position that can demand new development to "up the stakes" so to speak. So in a sense, you are actually supporting Dan's side of the debate. Also, although residing in an area definitely gives someone an edge in terms of what is happening, you don't have to be a chicken to know what an egg is. Just because someone does not live in Detroit does not discount his or her opinions. I like Detroit. I don't live there. Am I wrong in saying that?
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Jjw
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Username: Jjw

Post Number: 334
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 5:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.belvederesquare.com /
The link above is something I think would be appropriate for 8/W. It is in a very similar situation sitting in the city but right along the city/county border at a busy intersection. The neighborhoods are also similar. It is attractive, served by transit, and has become quite successful spawning new residential development in that area. It is also pedestrian-friendly in that most parking is located in a deck behind the structures giving it a nice streetscape. I really think Detroiters can demand this type of development rather than another strip-mall. Here is hoping something is built there that really does attrack people.
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Sg9018
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Username: Sg9018

Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 8:47 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Mall developers hope to land bookstore eateries such as Borders or a Barnes & Noble,Chili's Grill & Bar, T.J. Maxx
Here is a link to todays article,
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070615/BUS INESS06/706150369/1002/BUSINES S
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Oliverdouglas
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Username: Oliverdouglas

Post Number: 94
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 9:58 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jjw:

I just followed your link - that looks great. It made me think that a Nino Salvaggio or Westborn Market would be a great tenant for the 8W project. Of course it would also be great in place of the Farmer Jack we're losing at 7/Livernois.

I've been in Green Acres for 12 years now - this area so badly needs better quality retail. If I had any money at all, I would definitely do something on Livernois; there's enough discretionary income around here to support it. The urban density approach is entirely appropriate for the Avenue, but unless the very nature of the 8/W area changes (less traffic, slower traffic), it doesn't make as much sense here. That's not to say that crap is OK. Just recognizing that the intersection is what it is.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 976
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 10:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

>but unless the very nature of the 8/W area changes (less traffic, slower traffic)

Hence, my roundabout comment above.

Honestly, I'm a bit apathetic about the project. It's good in the sense that it will retain tax revenue from city residents that would have otherwise gone to support a suburban community. I think that's probably the biggest plus.

Bad in the sense that it will in turn drain revenue from somewhere else. Likely one of the older, inner-ring malls like Northland, Eastland or Fairlane... in order of likeliness.

As for the urbanity of that area, there wasn't really much there before if I'm recalling the location correctly. It was part of the State Fair grounds, correct? They'd have to slow the traffic through that intersection (a start would be making the roads actually intersect...) to bring any type of urbanity to there. I'm willing to bet that most of the people living within walking distance of there will opt to drive instead because neither of those thoroughfares are pedestrian friendly.

I hope the next mayor addresses the traffic pattern issues in the city more directly.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 615
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 10:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That bridge was just refurbished recently. They opted to spend MORE money fixing it than tear it down. It SHOULD have been torn down.

"The bridge once carried more than 70,000 vehicles a day. According to MDOT, the daily count is now below 30,000. Barwin and other Ferndale officials began thinking of a different solution to the bridge question-demolition. They began talking to consulting firms, real estate agents, developers and citizens from the surrounding community, and a vision began to emerge of a Woodward and 8 Mile intersection without the bridge-for about the same price as rebuilding it.

Controversy escalated, and the project quickly came off the MDOT's Categorical Exclusion list. An Environmental Assessment was started. MDOT hosted a series of public meetings and heard concerns from a well-organized group of community residents who lived near the bridge, as well as from historic preservation interests and engineers concerned about traffic safety. Barwin talked to real estate representatives and developers who said that removing the bridge would improve property values within a half-mile of the intersection. "

http://www.mecprotects.org/MER /Aug04/8%20mile.htm
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 977
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 10:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

>Johnlodge

Yeah, I vaguely remember the spouting off about that bridge. I can't see why anyone who lives in the area would want to keep it. That bridge, coupled with the Greenfield bridge, allows traffic to move way too fast on 8 Mile. You can easily be doing 60 MPH and still be in line with the flow of traffic.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 616
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Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 10:56 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Plus it destroys the potential for any sort of pedestrian friendly environment there. As you said in your previous post "I'm willing to bet that most of the people living within walking distance of there will opt to drive instead because neither of those thoroughfares are pedestrian friendly. "

It was a bad decision before, now with this retail development going in, it's an even worse decision.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 1032
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 11:13 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pedestrian-friendly? No, probably not. But the mere presence of highways does not discourage pedestrians. I find myself walking under the Kennedy here in Chicago rather often. Along with many others. It starts with building sidewalks, for christ's sake. But people will walk if there's something to walk TO.
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 1540
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 11:18 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The people who lived in those neighborhoods wanted traffic to be able to move quickly through that area. Congestion fears and fears that folks would avoid the intersection by taking shortcuts through their residental streets were some of the top concerns.

They are currently rehabbing the bridge and that intersection and even though lanes and closed and shifted it's a million times easier to drive on right now. That bump at the top of the bridge where you felt like you were going to fly off into Palmer Park is gone.

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