 
Hawthorne
Member
Username: Hawthorne
Post Number: 8
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 11:33 am: |    |
When we moved to Detroit in 1964, the entrances to all the expressways were marked with small green signs showing the name of the X-way and the direction of travel. Coming from California where we called them freeways, I always wondered why they were called expressways here.
Technically, an "expressway" is a divided highway for high-speed traffic with at least partial control of access, while a "freeway" has no at-grade cross-traffic. Is there an historical reason why Detroit's freeways were once called "expressways"? |
Mauser765
Member
Username: Mauser765
Post Number: 1558
Registered: 01-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 11:39 am: | |
More confusing is the term "highway" which is on the Secretary of State (DMV) driver test they give you when you renew your license. The question pertains to speeds, which is arbitrary if you dont know what the hell they mean by "highway". Some roads are NAMED highway (Groesbeck for example).
I would think that an "expressway" would have actual express lanes, like I-96.
Good question Hawthorne, I know somebody on here knows the answer in excruciating detail. |
Detroitnerd
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Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1044
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 11:40 am: | |
It may be becau they were built while the terminology was still evolving. Lodge was begun right after the war, I think. Davison was done already. In New York, there were many limited-access roads, but they were Moses' "parkways" not "expressways." Also, the term "freeway" seems to be applied mostly to interstates, part of the Ike-signed interstate act, which came after several of Detroit's expressways. |
Xd_brklyn
Member
Username: Xd_brklyn
Post Number: 242
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 11:50 am: | |
"with at least partial control of access"--I take it you mean stoplights or intersections or does an entrance ramp light count? It looks like there was a light at one time at the Warren Street(?) entrance ramp to Northbound-75, so if this was functional, would it qualify that stretch of 75 as "expressway"? Curious. |
Hawthorne
Member
Username: Hawthorne
Post Number: 9
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 12:01 pm: | |
Xd_brklyn: My definition was quoted from Wikipedia. Controlled access means interchanges rather than intersections with traffic signals. On a "freeway", this eliminates all cross traffic. This type of signal does not change a freeway into an expressway because the signal does not stop through traffic.
The entrance ramp lights you refer to were used at one time on several freeways during rush hours to space out the cars entering to allow smoother merging with through traffic. It's hard to let five closely-spaced vehicles merge in front of you when they come down some of our blind ramps. |
Bulletmagnet
Member
Username: Bulletmagnet
Post Number: 633
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 12:19 pm: | |
Freeway, Expressway, Highway, in Detroit, it's all called the "Ditch". I thought Freeways were called that because they were toll free. Expressways because they had limited access. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 440
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 1:04 pm: | |
An expressway is a limited-access road. A freeway is an expressway that does not charge a toll. So all freeways are expressways, but a toll expressway is not a freeway. |
Quozl
Member
Username: Quozl
Post Number: 761
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 1:09 pm: | |
Now is it true that Avenues in Detroit run north and south and Streets run east and west? Boulevards have grass in the middle that is rarely mowed? |
Hawthorne
Member
Username: Hawthorne
Post Number: 10
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 1:26 pm: | |
Not necessarily: Mack and Jefferson Avenues run mostly east/west while Linwood and Conant Streets run mostly north/south. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1046
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 1:33 pm: | |
Unlike other cities, the terms are used more loosely here. I believe the Road, Avenue and Highway designations identify thoroughfares. |
Burnsie
Member
Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 1037
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 1:45 pm: | |
Some people say "highway," and it takes a while to realize their definition of "highway" means only the freeway. To me, a highway can be any paved road with two or more lanes that travels a considerable distance, and has a speed limit of at least 50. |
Dnvn522
Member
Username: Dnvn522
Post Number: 251
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 3:22 pm: | |
quote:An expressway is a limited-access road. A freeway is an expressway that does not charge a toll. So all freeways are expressways, but a toll expressway is not a freeway.
That is not true. Hawthorne had the correct definitions, and I think Detroitnerd had the best guess at explaining his question.
The simple definitions as stated in the MUTCD published by the Federal Highway Administration are:
Expressway: A divided highway with partial control of access.
Freeway: A divided highway with full control of access.
A lot of Detroit's freeways were originally designed and/or built as expressways. I think that's why that term tends to be more widely used here. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 626
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 3:27 pm: | |
"Boulevards have grass in the middle that is rarely mowed?"
LOL |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 224
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 15, 2007 - 6:12 pm: | |
On 11 Mile just west of Woodward there's a sign to the effect of "up to $100 fine for throwing trash on highway." That particular stretch of 11 Mile is a residential four-lane with a 30 mph speed limit and curbs on each side. Is that a highway?
I've always called controlled-access roads expressways. Since metro Detroit doesn't have any real "expressways," I never learned the distinction until I took a trip to West Virginia a few years ago. There, an "expressway" typically has a speed limit of 65 (as opposed to 70 on a "freeway"). When an expressway crosses a major road, there's an interchange, but minor roads just cross at grade, sometimes with traffic lights. Expressways can even have businesses on them with driveways, although these are few and far between. There are a few expressway-like roads in Michigan (US-127 in Gratiot County comes to mind), but they aren't officially termed as such, so "expressway" as a colloquial label for what are more properly called "freeways" works fine around here, and I haven't stopped calling them expressways. |
Bulletmagnet
Member
Username: Bulletmagnet
Post Number: 646
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 7:58 am: | |
Professorscott, thanks for agreeing, but, who's on first?
PS please see the '(Another) I-94 Question' thread. |
Kville
Member
Username: Kville
Post Number: 62
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 8:37 am: | |
I don't know if I can add anything here except an historical perspective that I remember from the media when growing up. When originally built, Detroit's freeways were called expressways, but it wasn't long after construction that "officially" they started calling them freeways. I recall the media pointing out that the word expressway implied high-speed, and they were trying to downplay that aspect in order to keep drivers from going too fast. As for all the official definitions of these kinds of roads, or any other kinds of roads, the terms have always been loosely used throughout the country. Chicago has historically used the word expressway and in New York, most anything goes. Although I find it interesting that in New York, the term freeway is rarely, if ever, used. In smaller cities (where I now live near Fort Wayne, IN), I used the term expressway once, and no one knew what I meant. They asked, "Do you mean the INTERSTATE?"
The street/avenue/boulevard issue is another matter entirely. No matter what the official definitions are, in Detroit these terms don't seem to matter. I used to live on Elmdale, which is an average-sized residential side street, but it was called Elmdale "Avenue." To my way of thinking, an avenue is usually a wider thoroughfare. A boulevard usually is thought to have a median in the middle, but it's not always so. In Detroit there is no such thing as streets running one way and avenues running another (like New York). For one thing, on the east side where I lived, no one could figure out which direction the streets ran - there was no E-W, or N-S. |
Burnsie
Member
Username: Burnsie
Post Number: 1038
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 2:15 pm: | |
Dnvn522 wrote, "The simple definitions as stated in the MUTCD published by the Federal Highway Administration are: Expressway: A divided highway with partial control of access."
That's true. But as others have stated, when Detroit's freeways were built they were all called "expressways," signed as such, and had complete control of access (except, initially, the Willow Run Expwy.) |
Royce
Member
Username: Royce
Post Number: 2255
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 4:52 pm: | |
Limited-access I think I get. An expressway, having only certain spots in which to enter, would be a limited-access roadway. Therefore, partial control of access is the same as limited-access, right?.
Now, a freeway, having several spots to enter would be an unlimited-access roadway. Therefore, complete control of access is the same as unlimited-access, right?
Now, this terminology of "control" I'm not sure about. Does the "control" refer to being in the hands of the driver or the governmental entity that oversees the running of the freeway/expressway? Who can explain this? |
Bearinabox
Member
Username: Bearinabox
Post Number: 226
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 16, 2007 - 5:08 pm: | |
My understanding is this:
Complete control of access means there are no at-grade intersections, only interchanges. Unlimited access means there are no interchanges, only at-grade intersections. Partial control of access means that there are both at-grade intersections and grade-separated interchanges. Limited access is a more general term that encompasses both fully-controlled and partially-controlled access. I think the official definitions are a bit more complicated, though.
(Message edited by BearInABox on June 16, 2007) |
Dnvn522
Member
Username: Dnvn522
Post Number: 252
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, June 18, 2007 - 10:25 am: | |
Burnsie, I think you are correct.
Bear, you've got a good understanding, except if a road is all "limited access"...access would be fully-controlled (because the only access is at interchanges). Partially-controlled access (an expressway) would have some limited access right-of-way and some full access right-of-way. A good example of an expressway in metro Detroit is M-5 north of I-696. There are a few driveways and other access points including at-grade intersections but the amount of them has been restricted...hence the "partial control" of access. |
Hawthorne
Member
Username: Hawthorne
Post Number: 28
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 3:18 pm: | |
Here's a good clarification I found online:
"Contrary to the belief of most people in the Northeast and Chicago regions, an expressway (as defined by the US Federal Highway Administration and most state departments of transportation) is not the same thing as a freeway. Freeways are fully controlled access highways with no at-grade intersections. Expressways are a cross between a freeway and a normal road. In short, an expressway is a highway with at-grade intersections and possibly traffic lights, but with strict restrictions on the existence of driveways. These highways are useful because they move traffic more efficiently without all of the costs and disruptions of a freeway. Officially, the FHWA defines expressways as highways with “partial access control” and defines partial access control as “the exercise of police power to limit access to a highway from abutting land to specified and controlled points. In addition to possible interchanges there may be some crossings at grade with public roads, but direct private driveway connections have been minimized.” |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 480
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 3:48 pm: | |
Based on that, Hawthorne, are there any expressways in the Detroit area? |
Hawthorne
Member
Username: Hawthorne
Post Number: 29
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 4:37 pm: | |
Professorscott, yes: M-5 north of 12 Mile Rd. in Oakland County is a divided highway with at-grade intersections with signals about once/mile. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1076
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 4:59 pm: | |
Based on the FHWA definitions, I would say ... they have little or no bearing on the way lay people discuss roads in this area. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 481
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 22, 2007 - 5:02 pm: | |
It just occurred to me that a decent size segment of Metro Parkway fits the technical definition as well - it has service drives like a freeway, but no driveways itself, and traffic lights at intersections. Not the whole road, but a pretty long part of it. |