  Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 439 Registered: 08-2006 |
Upriver from all of us is a plan on the canadian side of the Saint Clair River to build a new 8 Billion dollar refinery. I know it is NIMBY but I dont want it. http://sarniavoice.com/index.p hp?name=News&file=article&sid= 56 | ||
Kid_dynamite Member Username: Kid_dynamite Post Number: 23 Registered: 06-2007 |
wouldn't that mean cheaper gas for us? The proximity to a refinery should equate to that, right? Screw NIMBY. | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 91 Registered: 05-2006 |
Cheaper gas? This a joke right? You could be next door to it, and you'll be paying over $4 a gallon by the time the thing gets built. Besides- its for Canadians. We are too busy rebuilding them in Iraq. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 443 Registered: 12-2006 |
The fact is, no new oil refinery has been built in the US since the 1970s; yet every time gasoline prices spike, the oil companies trot out the same old sob stories, one of which is "trouble with limited refinery capacity". A new refinery in Sarnia may or may not help with US gas prices; I don't know enough details about how oil moves around within North America. But it certainly can't hurt. Fareast, what are you concerned about? The chemical valley complex has poisoned the strait that we call the St. Clair River over the years with things much more vile than oil. I think it will help our neighbors (or "neighbours") across the river with jobs, will help the continent with a wee bit more refinery capacity, and won't hurt us on this side of the water at all. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 444 Registered: 12-2006 |
Incidentally, for an interesting article about how Sarnia, Ontario's regionalism is transforming the Sarnia area into a booming economic midsize city, while across the so-called river Port Huron is a rolling train wreck, read the Times Herald (www.thetimesherald.com). They have a seven-day archive of stories, or just pick up the paper at your local good newsstand. The essence: Sarnia cooperates with the surrounding rural area, a good bit of which has been incorporated into the City; Port Huron is a victim of Michigan's wonderful "home rule" which we are all riding to our collective economic grave. | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 93 Registered: 05-2006 |
The fact is, no new oil refinery has been built in the US since the 1970s; yet every time gasoline prices spike, the oil companies trot out the same old sob stories, one of which is "trouble with limited refinery capacity". There is a reason for this. Do you honestly think that oil companies, some of which are making profits in excess of 30+ billion a year, really want to add capacity? If it were a real problem, with the kind of capital they now have at their disposal, they would be building them left and right. Actually the US now imports a lot of refined gasoline from other countries, rather than spend the cash, and increase capacity domestically. As well environmental and labor regs to refine in other countries are easier to deal with. There is a reason no refineries have been built here in 20 years: they don't want to, the status quo for the oil companies is fine, and they can raise prices if there any glitches. | ||
Sailor_rick Member Username: Sailor_rick Post Number: 184 Registered: 02-2004 |
Prof, Where on the waterfront in Port Huron would you propose building an oil refinery? | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8070 Registered: 09-2005 |
Uh, not so fast - from today's paper: Refinery expansions put on hold in wake of push for biofuels Associated Press Jun. 18, 2007 12:00 AM WASHINGTON - A push from Congress and the White House for huge increases in biofuels, such as ethanol, is prompting the oil industry to scale back its plans for expansion of gasoline refineries. That could keep gasoline prices high, possibly for years to come. With President Bush calling for a 20 percent drop in gasoline use and the Senate now debating legislation for huge increases in ethanol production, oil companies see growing uncertainty about future gasoline demand and little need to expand refineries or build new ones. Oil industry executives no longer believe there will be the demand for gasoline over the next decade to warrant the billions of dollars in refinery expansions - as much as 10 percent increase in new refining capacity - they anticipated as recently as a year ago. Biofuels such as ethanol and efforts to get automakers to build more fuel-efficient vehicles have been portrayed as key to countering high gasoline prices, but it is likely to do little to curb costs at the pump today. | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 779 Registered: 07-2005 |
Sorry to inform you Karl, but the United States Congress and the White House does not have jurisdiction in CANADA, where the proposed refinery would be built. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3892 Registered: 10-2003 |
All the more reason why I will continue to buy and drink bottled spring water, as I have for the past 15 years. It began after learning about yet another toxic 'accidental' chemical release into the St. Claire river by yet another Sarnia chemical plant. Combined with Midland's poisoning of the Saginaw bay and the countless sanitary 'storm surge' poisonings of the Clinton River and Lake St. Claire by Macomb County drainage, I reluctantly had to give up on my family drinking Detroit water which draws almost of all its water downstream from that sewage. Sorry, water treatment is good for killing bacteria but it can't get rid of molecular-sized poisons. What a shame about what has been done to our beautiful fresh water Great Lakes. | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 782 Registered: 07-2005 |
This poor kid was born to a loving Garden City family. During the pregnancy, the mother regularly drank and bathed with City of Detroit potable water at her mother-in-laws home over on Ashton and Lyndon. He has born with some kick ass baby incisors, did not need Gerber baby foods and reluctantly could not be breast fed. It is a tragedy that thousands of mutants are born daily because of the unsafe water supply in this country!  | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1544 Registered: 11-2003 |
Hmmm... I can't think of any vacant land off the river where they're proposing on building this new refinery. According to http://www.ene.gov.on.ca/envis ion/env_reg/ea/english/ToRs/sh ell_tor.htm the new refinery will be 20K downstream from the existing refinery. Doing the distance in my head it sounds like it might be right across from St. Clair... but I still can't think of any vacant land that this will fit on since that area is all residential. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 8073 Registered: 09-2005 |
Quozl, both of your posts are bogus. The USA claims no jurisdiction over Canada, and if Shell wants to spend $8B there, let 'em. The point of the article was that there will be emphasis placed on biofuels in the future (read: subsidies) - not on gasoline production. The economic incentive is what may push more/less investment in each area. Both the picture and your claim "thousands of mutants are born daily because of the unsafe water supply" are completely phony. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 646 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Both the picture and your claim "thousands of mutants are born daily because of the unsafe water supply" are completely phony." THANK GOD you cleared that up for us Karl. We all thought that photo and claim were authentic. Quozl, please be more obvious when employing satire! We are too stupid to understand it! Um, another thing Karl. "The USA claims no jurisdiction over Canada, and if Shell wants to spend $8B there, let 'em. " THATS WHAT HE SAID!: "the United States Congress and the White House does not have jurisdiction in CANADA, where the proposed refinery would be built." | ||
Bulletmagnet Member Username: Bulletmagnet Post Number: 670 Registered: 01-2007 |
This refinery is a good idea. Cinderpath is right about the way the refineries owners think about production and profits. It would take about 20 years for new refineries to begin to bring in profits. So why would they want to build new when they can keep production at present levels and make bucks now. The more demand we put on the present supplies, the more we pay, and the more they make. Why mess up a good thing? | ||
Quozl Member Username: Quozl Post Number: 784 Registered: 07-2005 |
Karl, again you are incorrect on both counts. You wrote: quote: The refinery in question AND the subject of this thread concerns a refinery being proposed in Ontario, CANADA. Who give a shit about your C&P concerning USA biofuels, as it will have no bearing on what the CANADIAN Government wants. Second of all, you are proof positive that thousands of mutants are born daily in this country. I am correct on both counts, you are wrong, go back to your hole. Thank you for your continued cooperation. (Message edited by karl on June 18, 2007) (Message edited by quozl on June 18, 2007) | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 2329 Registered: 12-2005 |
I'm a bit suspicious of the following article's objectivity but it does contain some interesting information. The Real Reason Gas Prices Are High quote:I believe they're referring to Mount Vernon, Indiana. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 2330 Registered: 12-2005 |
There are several informative fuel-related articles in today's Detroit News:
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3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 706 Registered: 01-2005 |
Cinderpath (and others): Your post(s) evidence an absolute lack of any understanding of the oil, refining, and energy business in general. Why do you think no new refinery has been built in the U.S. in 30+ years? Is Shell spending $8B (Canadian) because it likes Canada better? No refineries have been built here for a simple reason. The U.S Govt inspired by "environmentalists" as a practical matter won't permit any to be built, at a cost which is even theoretically financially viable. So, the oil companies import up to 15% of all refined products from Europe, primarily. At a higher cost to U.S. consumers, but at less cost that if the oil companies had to build new refineries here and pass the costs along to consumers. For several years I had an output contract w/ Total Petroleum to buy all the oil we could produce. The oil was sent by pipeline to Total's Healdton, OK refinery, a couple hundred miles away; Total owned and operated 4 refineries in the U.S. (one in MI.) Then, the EPA told Total it had to spend $500,000,000 to "upgrade" Healdton. (I've been to that refinery and it was one of the most modern in the country.) Total said "f___ you," sold its refineries and 1200 gas stations and pulled out of the U.S. Total is a French company and one of the top 5 majors in the world. The MI refinery was closed shortly thereafter and probably 200 people were put out of work. A month or so ago Marathon announced it is going to spend $3 billion to expand it LA refinery in order to produce more diesel which it claims will overtake gasoline by 2020. No one knowledgable person that I know, people in the business who could care less what fuels are used (because they can make money whatever it is) believe that biofuels, in particular ethanol, will ever be more that a niche market.There are many reasons for that view as have been discussed on this forum in the past. Healdton is now owned and operated by Teppco, to whom we now sell our oil, who "upgraded" the refinery. Of course, that cost is now passed on to the public in the form of higher gas prices. Lowell: Every year at the "Municipal Water Works" (or whatever it's called) convention, there is a blind taste testing and purity analysis of municipal water from around the country. Year after year, Detroit wins. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3899 Registered: 10-2003 |
^Hey, Detroit water tastes great, no argument there, although in the spring I think it can taste funky at times. It might be the stuff they put in to keep the zebra mussels from clogging their piping, before the other things they add to water. Still, Irish Hill spring water tastes even better. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 708 Registered: 01-2005 |
Where I stay in TX frequently the water is so bad the hotel has a refrigerator and free bottled water in every room. In the rural areas down there, there is so much natural gas in the water that at times the glass will be blown out of your hand when you turn on the faucet if you hold the glass under the spigot. It's been a long time since water has caught fire I'm told, but it's wise when getting water from the kitchen sink to make sure the oven is off. That's why I love Detroit water. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 1333 Registered: 02-2007 |
Well, Shell has always been the best Gas Station (under ExxonMobil). This is good for th economy and our pockets. | ||
Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 442 Registered: 08-2006 |
I guess it doesnt help though that for years the companies in Chemical Valley dumped there waste into empty salt caves far beneath the city. Some estimates put it at a billion gallons. In the 80s a wierd blob was seen on the river and the underground wastes were suspected. Also a few years ago on the superbowl all the cities here along the river and Anchor Bay had an emergency message not to drink the water because of a factories release....and god only knows what was ejected into the waters during the blackout. My girlfriend lived in PH at the time and said it looked like armageddon when all of the factories released all kinds of shit into the air due to emergency releases from the loss of power and who knows what was released into the water. I dont care one bit about gas prices there are other changes I can make in my life to save more money than 2 dollar a gallon cheaper gas. I just dont want any more heavy industry in an area with a bad track record.Here is a radio broadcast from the 80s about the "blob". http://archives.cbc.ca/IDC-1-7 5-1390-8684/science_technology /great_lakes_pollution/clip8 | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 709 Registered: 01-2005 |
From the June, 2007 issue of "Hydrocarbon Processing" which I received today: BP Products North America, Inc. is gearing up for construction of a planned $3 billion expansion of its Whiting, IN refinery to process Canadian heavy crude (coming in from the tar sands projects.){We should be producing millions of bbls per day from our shale oil deposits - over 1 TRILLION bbls in 4 western states - but we're too damn dumb to do it. And the fact we are puts more money in my pockets because the last thing I want from my own pocketbook is more oil coming on the scene, from anywhere.) Motiva (a refiner) is gearing up to construct a new 325,000 bbl/day expansion of it's Port Arthur, TX refinery. Several new gas processing plant expansions were also announced. And for all you environmentalists, from the same issue, the U.N. has a new study of bioenergy production (www.un.org) which warns that "unless new policies are enacted to protect threatened lands, secure socially acceptable use and steer bioenergy development (biodiesel and bioethanol) in a sustainable direction overall, the environmental and social damage could in some cases outweigh the benefits." In the last couple of weeks cereal prices have increased 5-6% (the price stays the same but content is reduced), milk prices and beef have increased, all because corn prices have increased as ethanol use of corn is outstripping supply. There have been price increases of many other products recently as well. Here's the interesting part: the Administration has suggested FOOD and GASOLINE prices be removed from calculations of the Consumer Price Indexes. Imagine that; government does not want anyone to know the true cost of these alternative fuels, which in all cases are less energy efficient than gasoline, and therefore substantially more costly, even w/o the significant govt subsidies which we all pay and which push up the cost of alternative fuels even higher. P.T. Barnum was right. |
