  Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1048 Registered: 07-2004 |
I just thought I'd get the ball rolling on this: We've got to help billionaire Mike Ilitch build his new stadium. Why? Because it will keep the Red Wings in Detroit. But all decisions regarding the stadium need to be made by Ilitch and his organization. We mustn't hinder his vision of progress. Even if it means getting rid of streets in downtown while adding a traffic-generating monster that will tie up precious city resources paid for by the public. And, whatever you do, don't spend precious taxpayer dollars on streetcars, commuter rail or these other "pipe dreams." We need to spend our tax dollars where they count most, helping a billionaire. (The above was satire.) | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2001 Registered: 02-2004 |
It's barely satire. It's more of a prophecy. | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 119 Registered: 01-2007 |
Nothing like another superblock in the CBD to make navigation downtown interesting.;) | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1178 Registered: 08-2006 |
I don't like it either, but you gotta wonder w/o Comerica Park and Ford Field, how much worse off would Detroit have been the past couple years? GM Ford and DCX sure ain't doing much. It's like the coneys at Lafayette, just keep eatin and lovin' em, but don't dare ask how they make 'em. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4571 Registered: 08-2004 |
Was it really necessary to open YET ANOTHER thread about a new arena, especially a sarcastic one? So a 2 block stretch of Clifford, Columbia and Elizabeth will be closed off... big whup-tee-do! At least it will probably not impact the Woodward Plan of downtown radial streets. Another superblock? Yes, just like Cobo Hall, the new FBI HQ, MGM Grand, Edison, Blue Cross, DMC, WSU, Henry Ford Hospital, GM Poletown Plant, Jefferson Jeep Plant, etc. etc. etc. No building complexes in Detroit that take up more than a city block should ever be allowed in the city, only out in the cornfields... Sarcastic enough? As for all the rest, go re-read the other 3 threads on the topic of an arena... | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1049 Registered: 07-2004 |
We'll never know what condition Detroit would have been in if we had left those preservation loons put in their antiquated streetcars and commuter rail stations. Talk about crazy! Why leave development to those people? They actually thought that old buildings like the Statler were ASSETS, not liabilities. They probably wanted to pump money into all these other things that, to their credit, seem to work elsewhere. But this is Detroit, where we build cars, so everything has to be car-centered. And where we like sports. So we've got to pay demolition contractors to come in and sweep away all that old stuff, so we can build nice new sports stadiums to help the economy. That's solid thinking. That's what works here. We're not going to try those far-out experiments, effective though they are in almost every other place. Detroit is a special place. We care about sports and cars. It's a no-brainer. But you don't have to sit there idly, impatient to buy your first overpriced beer or admission ticket. You can join in the excitement by starting to pay for it RIGHT NOW. With taxpayer dollars, we can turn our whole downtown into gleaming stadiums and streets jam-packed with traffic almost all the time. Will that discourage some business downtown? Maybe, but downtowns aren't for business anymore. They're for sports stadiums! Yes, who knows what the CBD would be if we hadn't made all of these wise decisions. Who knows what might have been if taxpayers' money had gone into unproductive stuff like refurbishing empty buildings and laying light rail, instead of into our gleaming new buildings. Such follies were avoided. Thankfully, we will never know. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1419 Registered: 06-2006 |
to those of you who are against using tax payer money to fund stadiums, do you feel that it would have been worth it to lose the Tigers to one of the suburbs if it meant that Detroit didn't have to spend a dime to build the team a new stadium? If yes, then I regret to inform you that you're an idiot... If not, then STFU! | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2002 Registered: 02-2004 |
The bigger issue for me is the fact that I will pay for the new hockey arena. I will never see a hockey game. I would use a mass transit system, I would sort of use the FBI or a hospital. Mike Ilitch, who is a BAD MAN, will not share the riches he reaps with me. It's going to happen, I am not going to waste my precious life fighting it, it's barely worth mentioning except for the joy that sarcasm brings me. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 644 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thing is, streetcars and commuter rail stations and empty statler buildings don't really help if there isn't some sort of demand for them. You did not need a streetcar between jefferson and foxtown twenty years ago. Now that section of Woodward is starting to come to life, and maybe eventually you will. Part of that is the stadiums. Part of that is Compuware/Campus Martius. If sports Arenas can bring people downtown instead of out to Pontiac, so be it. Hopefully using as little taxpayer money as possible. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1050 Registered: 07-2004 |
That's the spirit, Thejesus. Say it enough times and maybe they'll start to see how wrong they really are. And you've described exactly what they should do. Shut up. This isn't any of your business. It's only your tax money. Sit back. Do what we tell you. Don't object at all. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 645 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sometimes it seems like we get so excited to have billionaires move their companies to Detroit and do business here, but once they are here and are doing business the way billionaires do, we don't like them anymore. Is this how we'll treat Quicken if they move downtown? Yay yay yay Quicken has moved downtown. Boo, they knocked down my favorite abandoned decaying pile of bricks to do it! How dare they! They should have saved that building and turned it into a station for light rail that nobody will ride because there still isn't enough footraffic downtown to warrant it. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4572 Registered: 08-2004 |
I can see the city/state spending some money for infrastructure improvements (moving sewers, utility lines). But I don't see them spending any money on the actual Arena. That is how it was with Ford Field and Comerica Park. However, with those 2, the county and state chipped in some big bucks. There's no point in arguing about things that we don't know. For all we know Ilitch can't get all of the land he needs (since the eminent domain that was used on the Stadia is no longer an option), and may just decide to redo JLA. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1420 Registered: 06-2006 |
DetroitNerd: Wrong...it IS the taxpayers' business...it's their business to decide whether to pay for an arena and have it built in Detroit, or to save their money and allow it to be built somewhere else... you can't have both...not when there are plenty of other cities in SE Michigan that would happy to contribute $$$ to have an arena built in their neck of the woods... that's how it works... perhaps you think that whining about it and acting like Detroit is somehow ENTITLED to have an arena built in their city without having to pay for any of it is the way to go...why don't you give that a shot and let us know how it works out for you | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1051 Registered: 07-2004 |
Gistok: I totally agree. But there is one way to make SURE that Ilitch builds a new arena, and that's to give him our tax money. Naturally, it goes without saying that we'll do anything within our power to wipe away streets, reroute sewer or steam lines, subsidize him with (unofficially, of course) dedicated police and ambulance service, and maybe even more. But we can get him to keep his business, with all its profitable concessions rights, right here in the city if we pay him. For all we know, he doesn't have the land he needs, but maybe we can give him some more. We've all got to pull together on this project! Now, more than ever, we've got to get our tax money out of the mismanaged city budget and put it where it belongs, in Mike Ilitch's pockets. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1421 Registered: 06-2006 |
"The bigger issue for me is the fact that I will pay for the new hockey arena. I will never see a hockey game." then elect officials that will refuse to fund stadiums with taxpayer dollars and allow them to be built in the suburbs if that's what you want | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1052 Registered: 07-2004 |
Way to go, Thejesus. I'm glad we finally see eye-to-eye. Our choice is either to throw in our tax money to Ilitch, or to watch our team leave. We're not entitled to all the benefits that come with having a hockey arena: The lovely architecture, or the commodious parking facilities and the lively concessions booths Ilitch operates so profitably. We have to ask ourselves, as taxpayers and as Detroiter, how is Ilitch going to get the most out of this arrangement. As for those whiners who say we might better spend our money on all these other silly things when one of the world's richest people needs a little help, go give that a shot and see how it works out. This is still America, dammit. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1422 Registered: 06-2006 |
so you'd be happy then to not spend any money on the arena and watch these teams relocate to the suburbs? thanks...got it...you're an idiot for being OK with this but I'm glad you shared what your position is with the rest of us | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2676 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: What's the cost/benefit ratio, huh? Glad to see you're thinking--calling everyone an idiot for disagreeing with a position you have yet to defend. Maybe you can go to work for Mr. Ilitch, squeezing every last precious taxpayer dollar out of the City of Detroit to enrich your own well-being. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4575 Registered: 08-2004 |
Actually we have to look no farther than the Hockey players strike of a few years ago. A lot of downtown restaurant/bar owners were really struggling at that time. Some may have even gone under. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1423 Registered: 06-2006 |
^uh, Dan, just so you're on the same page as everyone, a sports arena is a virtual guaranteed boon to any city that gets one, and no one is even arguing that not spending money on a new arena is worth losing a team as that notion is ludicrous... my point is, unless you're will to support that ridiculous position, then there's nothing to even say because that's the alternative to a city not offering money to help build an arena in a place like SE Michigan can't have ti both way, regardless of how entitled you might think you are to having it both ways | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1053 Registered: 07-2004 |
We certainly have too many idiots on this board, incapable of seeing that we need to step up, right now, and do anything Ilitch needs so we can keep the Red Wings playing here in Detroit. Take Danindc, for instance: What's all this shit about facts, Dan. Don't you realize that sports stadiums are the key to our success as a city? That's just a fact, Dan, and that means that we've got to do whatever we can to help them stay. We'd be FOOLS not to. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1425 Registered: 06-2006 |
Gistok: There's risk associated with any business venture such as the one you pointed out...when it comes to building a sports arena, however, consensus seems to be that the potential rewards greatly outweigh the potential risks | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1054 Registered: 07-2004 |
I anticipate that some of you whiners are going to complain about who gets the rewards and who gets the risks. That the public must put up money and that Ilitch gets all the concessions rights and everything. Who cares? If it means that one more dollar winds up being spent in Detroit, who cares if a billionaire gets it and the public subsidizes it? You've got to break a few eggs to make an omelet. Same thing with stadiums. You gotta spend money to make money. And we've got to guarantee that Ilitch can make money by giving him some more! | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 237 Registered: 12-2006 |
The real question, to ask is, how much help are they asking for and how does that compare to the amount of income it brings into the city. This income can come from a lot of things. The Red Wings, like other teams inside the city limits have to pay a commercial income tax. How much tax revenue does that generate a year? All the side business like parking lots, bars, restaurants, etc make money off wings games that is in turn eligible for the city's commercial income tax. How much does that generate? Also, all employees of all these businesses have to file either resident or non-resident city income taxes as well. This includes the players. Next year, the expected NHL salary cap is going to be between $48 and $49 million. Let's assume that Ken Holland will leave a few million free for potential trades and assume that all the players live outside the city. Then you could apply the city's 1.25% non-resident income tax to determine what the city's take on the Red Wing's player's combined salaries is. It turns out that it is equal to over $500,000 in tax revenue next year alone. Remember, that is just the players. Depending on how much Ilitch asks for, it is possible that the project will "pay for itself" in a few years anyway because of the increased revenue keeping the Wings in Detroit would provide. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2678 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Of course! Look at how much Auburn Hills reaps off the Palace. How could I be so stupid? Thejesus, most businesspeople understand risk vs. reward. Different from your approach, however, they actually quantify these items before making a decision instead of guessing. Ilitch, of course, is going to soak the taxpayers for as much as he can, in order to reduce his risk. If Bill Davidson can do it, if Abe Pollin can do it, then Mike Ilitch can build his own damned arena. The City can't afford to look out for billionaires when it has more pressing concerns. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 707 Registered: 01-2005 |
Let's say Ilitch decides to totally renovate Joe Lewis. Who do you think will have to pay for that? The City owns it and the City, insolvent basically, will have to. Ilitch may end up paying for it eventually in the form of higher rent for many years, but I's cash-flow won't be diminished. And, the whole idea of renovating or building new is to put more revenue in I's pockets (nothing wrong w/ that) so he's not going to be too keen on paying higher rent for a renovated JL. The whole ides of a change is to provide a Palace-like structure (can't be done @ JL) and control of the area around the arena to generate parking, restaurant etc revenue. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1055 Registered: 07-2004 |
The project will pay for itself. The only thing is, we need to pay for it first. Then, after years and years, it's a sure thing that money will be made. So who cares if much of that money goes into billionaire Mike's pockets? We'll pay our taxes, the tax money will got to Mike Ilitch, and he'll spend it wisely. He'll even pay taxes on it. And taxes go back into the city budget over time. Think of it as an investment. We'll invest our taxes in Ilitch, and he'll hold onto our money for us. Over time, we'll give him more money through his exclusive concessions business and parking business. And we'll give him subsidies via infrastructure and police, fire and ambulance coverage (unofficially, of course, unofficially). Over time, Olympia will pay taxes, and through those taxes, it'll be like he paid it all back. And so it'll pay for itself, once we do. So the project will pay for itself. What's more, I'll bet we'll be welcomed as liberators. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2679 Registered: 10-2003 |
You know, I really can't wait until Ilitchtown is finished, and he starts fencing it off from the rest of the city. You won't be able to get in, but you can take satisfaction in knowing that you paid for it. | ||
Oliverdouglas Member Username: Oliverdouglas Post Number: 96 Registered: 02-2006 |
What an awful thread. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1057 Registered: 07-2004 |
Laugh all you want, Dan. We'll be laughing last. All this stuff about light rail being the number one driver of urban investment and development in the country just won't work here. We love our cars. The single biggest driver of urban development here is Mike Ilitch. He just needs a little help from you and me. Who are we to begrudge him a little assistance? | ||
Jeffrey_thomas Member Username: Jeffrey_thomas Post Number: 55 Registered: 10-2005 |
I helped! 5$ hot and now for lunch! | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1427 Registered: 06-2006 |
Danindc: You seemed to have missed the fact that "anti-taxpayer-money-to-fund-s tadiums-crowd" still wants the stadium built in Detroit even though they don't want to chip in... their argument basically that Ilitch is a successful businesses man and that he therefore is somehow obligated to not only pay for the stadium himself, but also to build it in Detroit even if other cities are willing to chip in where Detroit is not simply b/c stadiums "belong" in Detroit... the bottom line is that if the city were run by DYers like DetroitNerd, Detroit would lose the Tigers, Lions AND the Wings...but in doing so, they'd preserve their right to call Ilitch a "bad person" as often as they want, and maybe that's all they're really after...who knows with this crowd (Message edited by thejesus on June 18, 2007) | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 55 Registered: 05-2007 |
You'll be able to get into Ilitchtown, as long as you're willing to pay the toll to get in. Ilitch is free, unregulated, to raise his "taxes" and surcharges but doesn't believe the state should levy one to pay for education. Isn't it about time the Family (and their fans) replenish the general tax pool rather than look for another handout. And when's he going to step up and volunteer to pay the traffic cops required to police streets on his game days? Do you realize with the jackpot renewal clause he scored from Coleman Young, he'll have the most lucratige NHL deal in America? He's already filthy rich ... when's enough enough? Why not use some of the slot money from MotorCity casino to pay for his Arena; afterall, Marian says she's keeping it all here in Detroit ... so where's it going? | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 56 Registered: 05-2007 |
It takes almost 51,000 Detroit area families to collectively make in one year what the Ilitch Family says they take in each year. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1058 Registered: 07-2004 |
Thanks for doing your part, Jeffrey. Now, everybody all in unison: 1, 2, 3, 4, What do we pay taxes for? Ilitch! Ilitch! Yay, Ilitch! | ||
Downtownguy Member Username: Downtownguy Post Number: 30 Registered: 07-2004 |
The thing that has always frosted me about the Ilitch lease is how, because it is so cheap, he basically shuts the Joe down from most other events so he can keep it all to himself. If, for his paltry $25,000 a month lease payment, he actually aggressively worked to bring in other events--instead of seeing them go to the Palace-- then it might be worth it. Bars, restaurants, parking lots, vendors, etc. would reap the benefits of this taxpayer subsidy. But no, that's what a good corporate citizen would do. Make no mistake, Mike Ilitch is a shrewd businessperson, but he is nowhere close to being the good corporate citizen that so many people give him credit for. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 648 Registered: 10-2003 |
Detroitnerd, while we all enjoy posting the sarcastic posts and the ol' Johnathon Swiftesque proposals now and then, your argument would be better served at this point by just laying out your case. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1059 Registered: 07-2004 |
It's not sarcasm, it's satire. Calling it sarcasm just means you're not laughing anymore. ;) And so, my proposal is we should give Ilitch everything. Taxes are too high in Michigan, businesses are leaving, and people can't afford them. So we should only raise them when we can give them to a billionaire to build a new arena. These frills like light-rail (we need more FREEWAY LANES, not trolleys that nobody will ever use, ever, not one person will use them!), commuter rail (too expensive, not enough volume, there's already train service), or education (they're lucky they get a heated building and a working Coke machine), we need more sports stadiums, and if getting them means paying for it for a guy with a billion dollars, so be it. He'll get the money, he'll build the stadium, and then he'll pay the taxes. It'll be like those taxes weren't taxes at all, but repayment of our taxes that we gave to him. But as long as it's a net gain for the city (someday, maybe), it doesn't matter. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1428 Registered: 06-2006 |
"He'll get the money, he'll build the stadium, and then he'll pay the taxes. It'll be like those taxes weren't taxes at all, but repayment of our taxes that we gave to him. But as long as it's a net gain for the city (someday, maybe), it doesn't matter." I'm hoping that you started to see the light as yo typed this...it's the only intelligent thing you've ever posted... | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4576 Registered: 08-2004 |
Yes this is an awful thread... blah blah blah... One guy thinks that because the Palace... which is nothing but traffic gridlock going in and going out, and is surrounded by a sea of parking (and you CANNOT walk in... no car, no entry) that if it doesn't generate spinoff, then how can a new Detroit Arena)... another guy thinks that Ilitch is purposefully keeping other shows from coming to JLA just so that he can keep the place to himself (Hockey).... jeese! Thejesus, you and I don't always agree, but I generally agree with your posts this time... And I never thought I would say this, but Skulker & Jelk are sometimes right about this forum... | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1060 Registered: 07-2004 |
Yes, I see the light. I'm converted. To hell with stuff like funding education, health care, human services, and all that stuff. Taxes are WAY too high. We need to spend our tax dollars on something that matters: Sports. This profitable enterprise, with attendant concessions deals and public subsidy, can bring some money into our downtown. Therefore, we should do everything possible to keep it here. Remember, it's his team, and it's his right to do with it what he wants to. So we should pay him a princely sum to sort of, you know, bribe him to stay here. We can't afford NOT to do it. Maybe we can start a fund drive just to show him we care. How about setting up a Web site with PayPal so we can all give generously right now. That way, when it comes time to levy a special tax, he'll know we're not afraid to shell out more money, even if the prices for games wind up being beyond our reach. We can call it Let's Help Mike (perhaps at letshelpmike.com), and people can give money, not a lot, just a bit, as a token of good faith, to show him that we want him to keep his business here and will let him do whatever he pleases. Anybody with Web savvy want to help? | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1895 Registered: 12-2003 |
Coleman made the arena deal with the Norris family to keep the Red Wings from moving to Pontiac not Mike Ilitch. Ilitch came along 3-4 years later. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2681 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Portland, Oregon has only one major league team. No MLB, no NFL, and no NHL. They probably get so BORED there because there's just no reason to go downtown. Yet it's probably one of the most livable cities in North America. How do you reconcile that, thejesus? | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 1132 Registered: 12-2006 |
quote: I sincerely hope that you were being sarcastic on the last part. Do you honestly think he is going to move this team out into the suburbs? That has not come up once, and it would take a miracle for it to happen. quote: If he didn't want to stay here, he would not have renovated the Fox, bought the GAR, bought many land parcels behind the Fox, etc. Why leave now? He's invested too much here. This has got to be one of the dumbest threads possible. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1061 Registered: 07-2004 |
But have we given him enough? How can you be so sure, Scs100? There's only one way to be sure, and that's to give him more money whether he asks for it or not. The schools have some problems, and the city isn't as safe as it could be, and, yes, I'll admit we have some transit issues (we need more buses), but I'll be damned if I'm going to gamble with something as important as whether or not our most important billionaire gets enough subsidies to stay. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1896 Registered: 12-2003 |
He will get money one way or the other, Stadiums are just to expensive an undertaken without assistance. It is just the way it is. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 1135 Registered: 12-2006 |
quote: You just made the dumbest remark possible on transit. We need more buses? We have the buses, we need light rail/heavy rail and commuter rail. Then we have transit. The bus system is ok for now (although some hybrids would be nice if we could get the money), but the rest needs to come and soon. I don't care what happens, this city will be screwed without better transit if it doesn't come in the next 15-20 years. And I highly doubt that Ilitch is going to need our money. He's got enough as it is. quote: I'm starting to agree with you Gistok. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1062 Registered: 07-2004 |
That's right. SJ raises another good point. Stadiums are just too expensive to build without our help. How are we going to continue to build new stadiums for our sports team owners every 30 years without a little public money? It's just unrealistic. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2685 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Hmmm. That wasn't the case with the Palace, MCI Center, or Pacific Bell Park. How much is Ilitch worth? Even more importantly, how big of a loan could he obtain? And a new arena will cost what, $350 million? Yes, throw money at him. Lord knows Detroit can't afford to have Ilitch get upset just because the City didn't want to incur a $350 million debt for his benefit. Seriously--the guy renovated the Fox Theatre. It's the least that Detroit can do. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2004 Registered: 02-2004 |
I have a serious question. Is there so much money in NHL hockey right now that we should honestly worry about another city taking the Red Wings? | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 1136 Registered: 12-2006 |
Pittsburgh's new arena will cost $290 million. So the estimate of $350 million is probably a good one. Here's how the one in Pittsburgh was built. http://thesportsbizblog.blogsp ot.com/search/label/Pittsburgh %20Penguins The Pittsburgh Penguins new arena funding plan is an intricate web of state, local and private money stitched together with revenue derived from new casinos being built in Pittsburgh and throughout the state. Because of the central role being played by casino funds in the arena funding plan, any delay in the building of those casinos could have a significant adverse impact on the arena. License challenges are currently pending in court for license in Pittsburgh and several other areas in the state. The owner of the Majestic Star, Don Barden, has committed $7.5 million a year to the arena from gaming proceeds. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 1137 Registered: 12-2006 |
quote: Thank you! | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4578 Registered: 08-2004 |
Thanks _sj_ for pointing out the fact that the so called "sweatheard deal" between the city and Ilitch about JLA had NOTHING to do with Mike Ilitch, but the Norris family. That point seems to have been forgotten in this discussion. When did JLA open... 1979? And Ilitch took over the Red Wings when... around 1984? Maybe it would have been a smart thing to do, had we waited until Mike Ilitch put his cards on the table before having this thread discussion. Otherwise, we're just arguing about what "we think is gonna happen". That seems to be a waste of peoples time? The anti-Ilitch folks are going to have a field day one way or another. Even if he decides to stay put, and remodel the Joe at his own expense (to get the private box royalties), some are going to say it is still a sweatheart deal. All we have here on this thread is the "my mind is already made up, so don't confuse me with the facts" crowd arguing over a deal that has yet to be made. How hilarious is that!  | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1063 Registered: 07-2004 |
Not true, Gistok, we're just trying to avoid disaster if Ilich leaves. What are YOU doing to keep him here? With your whiny comments about waiting, while one of the city's most important institutions could be in jeopardy! | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 58 Registered: 05-2007 |
Ilitch can't afford to leave. The News makes it clear today, even if he just options the current deal he's got the best deal in the NHL ... doubtfful he's going to beat that AND ... the Ilitch Family's vision includes the Red Wings in Detroit. Their other business units are counting on it. And what the hell would they do with all the land they've already purchased for it. Leaving isn't all that easy. Owners always threaten period ... it's part of negotiations. blah blah blah. He's posturing so that he can get a deal as good as that he is guaranteed if he stays in the Joe when he builds his new arena. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2686 Registered: 10-2003 |
Detroitnerd, thank you for all the much-needed laughs. What a way to start the week! | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1429 Registered: 06-2006 |
You all are being irrational and hypocritical by getting on Ilitch's case for trying to get the best deal he can... how many of you don't try to get the best deal you can when shopping for a car or a house? If it's a buyer's market and the car dealer is willing to give you $5k in incentives if you'll buy their car, how many of you would turn down the incentives and just pay full price because you have the $5k to do so... you're all so full of shit that it's comical | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 653 Registered: 10-2003 |
I have to agree with Thejesus. Basically reiterating what I said above. Is this how you'll treat Quicken loans if they decide to move to Detroit? Be all happy and giddy for a year or so, and then start complaining about the Tax incentives and "sweetheart deals" they may have gotten to lure them in? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2687 Registered: 10-2003 |
Okay, thejesus. Where is Detroit hiding the $350 million that Ilitch is going to seek for an arena? And how long will it take Ilitch to pay that money back, if at all? Why should Detroit extend its bonding capacity (which, really, is not so great) to benefit one person, when there are over 800,000 other people in the city to serve? Make your case. My "irrational" eyes are open. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1430 Registered: 06-2006 |
JL: These people have no idea how to build or revitalize a city...they just know how to destroy them and allow them to rot... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2689 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^Do you have ANY idea what I actually do for a living??? Stop talking out of your ass and back it up for once! | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1431 Registered: 06-2006 |
^^I've backed up everything I've posted, Dan...the argument you tried to make about Portland being a nice city despite having only 1 sports arena is not even remotely relevant to this discussion, which is why you didn't get any responses...I'll respond to your posts like I do everyone else's once you learn to stay on topic...until then, you're a waste of my time...good luck | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2690 Registered: 10-2003 |
Backed up with what? You put up no numbers, identified no sources of funding, or anything. Yet you're ready to throw piles of money at Ilitch before he even asks for it. Way to go, Gordon Gekko. Your reasoning? Because having the Red Wings in Detroit makes it a better place to live. I named a city where professional sports does not equate quality of life, and you summarily dismiss it for no good reason, other than you're a stubborn, undeducated prick. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1897 Registered: 12-2003 |
Palace was paid for with loans and money from suite sales not exactly all Davidson Money, which the city was also on the hook for infrastructure improvements. Rumored at one time to be almost $40 million. Also don't forget he had partners. If you remember Davidson also had others telling him to stop because he was going to ruin himself. Of course his gambled paid off but what if it wouldn't have. Abe got a cool $60 million from the government And Pac Bell received money from other sources except for the initial 170 million investment, including at least 15 million from the city. I still don't see the big deal, Ilitch ponied up over 60% of the financing for Comerica Park. What makes you think he won't do the same for a more stable entity then the Tigers were at the time. Not like the City was on the hook for it all, like you are suggesting. (Message edited by _sj_ on June 18, 2007) | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 59 Registered: 05-2007 |
Relying on one man, one family to be the anchors that revitalize a city like Detroit is foolish. Diversification is what's needed. That family's so highly leveraged as it is; if one thing goes wrong, they're going to be in big trouble. And so will Detroit. At present the Wings have a 35% debt to value ratio putting them in the middle of the NHL pack, and there will be far more teams with lower ratios than the Wings if he builds a new arena. The Tigers have a 59% debt to value ratio placing them among the six worse in MLB and the pennant win did little to effect that. MotorCity was valued at $1.1 billion when she bought it in 2005. Her lawyers indicate she borrowed roughly that to buyout MGM/Mirage and the other local shareholders, finance the expansion and service debt short term. In fact her leverage ratios are higher than expected and as a result both Moody's and S&P downgraded MotorCity's Credit ratings giving status equal to junk bonds. Fortunately at present the Pizza biz has apparently picked up and is undergoing successful expansion, but then again that's a cycle too. Little Caesars number are finally back to where they were in the early 1990s before their partner KMart went BK. No one wants to relocate their businesses or their homes to a town that's got a crime problem or where they can't adequately fund education. It reflects rather poorly when a community and its business leaders put money into new sporting venues rather than public safety and education. Besides the more we let ride on the Ilitch Family the more power and leverage we give them and that's poor business practice. Let Ilitch do what he needs to do but focus taxpayer dollars on public safety and education first! consider a property tax break for Ilitch the back end but conserve cash now. Let him use casino money to finance the new arena; after all, Marian makes a big point to her credit about how under her ownership she's keeping the casino money in Detroit rather than sending it out of state or off to some Indian Tribe. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 712 Registered: 01-2005 |
It's not uncommon for casinos to be financed with junk bonds or worse, including the Venetian, a very successful casino | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2691 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Given current trends, i.e. Tony Williams's mistake of committing 100% public dollars to the new Nationals stadium, I wouldn't be surprised to see every sports team owners to seek similar deals in the future. DC screwed that one up for everybody. | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 60 Registered: 05-2007 |
Ilitch didn't "pony up 60%" for Comerica; "his" 60% is coming from tickets, naming (licensing), advertising, concessions and parking revenue, and management contracts for Comerica and Tigers Stadium. Sure he financed the earlier debt on "his" 60% and put his collateral up to do it which is his real commitment. Now the fans and sponsors are paying "his share" off, let's not fool ourselves. | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 61 Registered: 05-2007 |
When Comerica opened ticket prices increased 103%; the highest increase in the country based on a study of 14 new or remodeled stadiums conducted by ERA in 2006. That's how Ilitch is paying his 60% share off. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1064 Registered: 07-2004 |
While milking the Tiger Stadium "security" fund. Oops, got serious for a moment. Good stuff, guys. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1789 Registered: 10-2003 |
No help for Ilitch! Never! I mean, we're talking about hockey here. It's not like it's baseball or something important like that. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 714 Registered: 01-2005 |
None of you bat an eyelash over the $120,000,000 of public money "financing" (read "handout") given to the Book-Cadilac renovation. (Message edited by 3rdworldcity on June 18, 2007) | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1791 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Book-Cadillac is architecturally and historically significant. Hockey is culturally and socially insignificant. | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 62 Registered: 05-2007 |
quote: "No help for Ilitch! Never!" Fury13, you're hearing something in your mind ... what people are saying is ... "Enough is Enough! You've made yourself the 6th richest man in Michigan partially knowing how to milk taxpayer subsidies." What a fabulous Legacy Mike Ilitch would leave all the people of Michigan who have bought his pizza, cheered on his teams or taken in a Show at one of his stages; fund a public arena, call it what ever he wants -- Big Mike Ilitch Arena or Little Caesar's Olympia Coliseum ... whatever -- and leave it to all the good people of Michigan and Hockey Fans everywhere. Instead he wants taxpayers to fund an arena for him so he can bequeath it to those fortunate (or not) enough to have been in his sperm pool. Years ago Marian and some of her political Bag Men buddies had plans to build a casino in Detroit that would fund a new baseball stadium before the Comerica Park Scheme was adopted; why not resurrect some version of that plan, she's already got control of the casino and hockey has no ban on co-mingling gambling bucks with the NHL. And she's made a big deal about how she's so cool because under her ownership the money from Detroit's MotorCity Casino stays in Detroit. | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 122 Registered: 01-2007 |
I have no problem with a new hockey arena. The one person that had a new olympia arena website had a great idea. I don't believe the proposed location is a good one.(my opinion). What is wrong with a spot along Clifford and I-75, or how about on Grand River near Motor City Casino? Two Ilitch entertainment venues side by side? Wherever he decides to put it, I do hope for greater spin off for local bars and restaurants. His past performance in this area is not encouraging unless we get it in writing. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4588 Registered: 08-2004 |
Warrenit84, probably the only good thing about JLA (which Ilitch I'm sure doesn't like) is the fact that the People Mover has a station there. That makes for convenient parking elsewhere, and also helps other bars/restaurants. Ditto for those establishments that have shuttle service to and from JLA. |
