  Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 339 Registered: 11-2005 |
I have seen the Gary Glazer documentary Stranded at the Corner and have often wondered why a plan such as The Navin Field plan never took off I am proud Corktown resident and lifelong Detroiter and in my opinion a baseball stadium with history makes much more sense in an area such as Corktown than a condo development. Reasons I feel this way... 1)Tourism. Which makes more sense a stadium that preserves history or a condo development? People will pay to come to the corner to watch a good ballgame some may even spend the night. 2)Retail. Both plans provide opportunities for retail but only one gives a significant customer base. With the size of Navin Field at 10,000 seat capacity promises that there will people frequenting Corktown on a regular basis. Condos would rely on people off the street that would not be able to provide the numbers that a stadium would. Plus the Navin Field plan also does not mean that no residential can be built, with only a lower deck and 10,000 seats, residential along with retail can be constructed! 3) Detroit is a sports town! And Corktown is where baseball belongs! 4) Parking, the lots would be slimmed. The lots adjacent to the stadium would be sufficient parking for a 10,000 seat stadium. So there would be significant infill in Corktown. 5) Recognition: Which would Detroit be more acclaimed for? Another condo development, or a preserved stadium offering people a chance to relive there past while watching the future players. Restoring Tiger Stadium to its Navin Field form would receive national acclaim. 6) Independent baseball does not require permission to be in the same city with a major league club, restored a field could provide many opportunities. 7) Many groups have expressed interest in playing in such a stadium Legion ball, Little League championships, Collegiate Wood Bat League, high school and college championships, women's professional baseball, maybe even Detroit Sandlot Baseball. There are many possibilities for Navin Field and Michigan and Trumbull would once again be a destination for baseball. So why won’t the city even look at the plans, does Illitch really have that much more say than the residents of the city? Please anyone who gives a damn about the city come to this meeting and voice concerns! The City of Detroit Planning Commission is holding a public hearing regarding handling of Tiger Stadium site. The meeting will be at 5:30 p.m. Thursday, June 21, 2007, on the 13th floor of the City County Building. | ||
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 1151 Registered: 09-2004 |
"10,000 seat capacity promises that there will people frequenting Corktown on a regular basis." How do you figure? | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 363 Registered: 02-2006 |
There's a 13th floor in the City County Building? Scary! <313> | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 340 Registered: 11-2005 |
Compared to just condos, addition of a independent team would mean that more people would be in the area. I am not saying that it will become NYC, I am saying more there would be more support for business. | ||
Xd_brklyn Member Username: Xd_brklyn Post Number: 244 Registered: 10-2003 |
Even in the middle of the Tiger's thirteen-year losing streak, a trip to Detroit during baseball season wasn't complete without a stop at Tiger Stadium. Anything that keeps even an echo of the old ballpark will get a regular visit from this ex-pat. My favorite part of the original Corktown plan kept the light standards. Hopefully, they are still in good enough shape they can be used in any new plan. | ||
Tompage Member Username: Tompage Post Number: 27 Registered: 01-2005 |
I think Navin Field/Corktown would be an ideal place for the home stadium for a Major League Soccer (MLS) franchise, as well as for baseball. Unfortunately, many people here look upon soccer (Futbol) as a fringe sport, much the way they looked at Toyota as a fringe auto company. | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 341 Registered: 11-2005 |
tompage, I wish MLS could be here after all the location is Ideal Michigan ave with South west and dearborn right here it is in the best spot in the city to support it. However I think investors would be a little more skeptical but it is a great Idea. | ||
Tompage Member Username: Tompage Post Number: 28 Registered: 01-2005 |
I agree, urbanoutdoors. There's already a huge constituency of Futbol enthusiasts within a few miles of Michigan and Trumbull. A soccer field/small stadium would also be consistent with the historical roots of Navin Field/Bennett Park. I really think Detroit should jump on this now before a place like Troy does. | ||
Dbest Member Username: Dbest Post Number: 32 Registered: 03-2007 |
Urban, I was at the opening of Stranded At The Corner at the Gem and it was indeed truly sad to sit through the showing of the film and to have the history of the ballpark reinforced in our minds, I also had a chance the night before to chat over the phone with Peter Riley (Michigan and Trumbull LLC), what he told me was really frustrating because he couldn't get the support of any of the city council as they had there minds made up as to what they wanted to happen with the field, to think they had a great plan for minor league baseball at the corner and a potential team lined up as well only to be shot down on numerous attempts? Im sorry for your pain being a lifelong resident and the agony of watching this palace rot! Thanks Illitch | ||
Drm Member Username: Drm Post Number: 1113 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote:The current plan will preserve the history of the site. The field will be available for youth baseball, soccer, etc. quote:Who says the city didn't look at them? Peter Riley? The same guy who claims that the city wants to demolish the stadium so that it can sell the materials in order to balance its budget? Also, see below regarding the voice of residents. quote:You're about 9 years too late. The current plans are based upon a study by Zachary and Associates before the stadium closed to learn what use the residents of Corktown prefer for the site. The bad part is that it took the city this long to listen. But, the good part is that the city DID listen to the neighborhood and the residents are getting exactly what they asked for. How often does that happen? | ||
Xd_brklyn Member Username: Xd_brklyn Post Number: 246 Registered: 10-2003 |
"But, the good part is that the city DID listen to the neighborhood and the residents are getting exactly what they asked for." I thought the Corktown Plan was looking to use some of the stadium, not the next-to-nothing outlined in this Detroit News article: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070607/U PDATE/706070506 Saving just the field and putting some retail around the perimeter is something, but it isn't what I would call notable. I would think the Corktown people would want something of distinction. Also per the above article, The Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy looking the to save a portion of the stadium isn't given much of a chance. Considering the mixed signals from the city, if you were interested in Tiger Stadium it would probably be a good idea to go to the CoD meeting. | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 342 Registered: 11-2005 |
Riley was not the only person to come up with a plan, I feel there was a much better navin field plan submitted with every detail analyzed and even money to back it up and the planning commission would not even look at it. The current plan has no funding and no developer. Plus under the current favored plan the tax payers of the city would have to pay for the demolition (along with money from the memorabilia why not the developer? I believe a site like michigan and trumbull needs more than "youth baseball, soccer, etc" The current plan lacks thought and creativity. The area deserves at least the opportunity for all plans to be looked at and then a decision to be made. | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 2 Registered: 06-2007 |
I think we put too much emphasis on parking. YES! I work in the city i know how much parking sucks! I'm just sick of everyone building everything as 'destination developments'. I agree that the plan lacks any imagination and turns it over to an unknown developer to propose whatever can warrant profitable returns in their proforma (i.e. suburban style 'lofts' with plenty of parking lots). Our whole system of government is blinded by this type of development. Our State is planning to fund the infrastructure costs of an amusement park in ...##**@FFT (that was me puking)...Grayling! Forget about schools closing, forget about smart growth, basically...forget YOU Detroit! They seem to want you to have to get in your car and out of your communities to drive to a destination. They see short term profit in parking lots, not people that live and work here. When was the last time you walked to your local market? Seriously! When was the last time you wandered down the street to watch the best local players play ball, maybe hoping to get a chance to swing a few (or kick a few)? All i'm saying is that such an icon of Detroit history deserves to be given back to the people. I'm happy the field is planned on staying, but we're still not seeing the bigger picture here. Communities! not isolated condo owners behind iron gates in private parking lots (secure parking will still be provided). ""10,000 seat capacity promises that there will people frequenting Corktown on a regular basis." How do you figure?" How do you NOT figure? Open it to the public, let them find their own way to the Stadium during the day to play amongst themselves. Charge $5 for nightly games for the experienced teams with rosters (not hard to organize people!), amazingly you'll automatically get constant activity there from 10:00am until 10:00 pm on most nights. Now imagine yourself as a condo owner in tower buildings of varying heights tying into the stadium and overlooking all the activity. Don't talk to me about sound control or criminal activity, these things can be controlled through smart planning. I'm just sick of people only planning as far as they can make their first buck or a quick buyout after five years. The city needs to start planning a little further into the future and investing in it's own communities. Who cares if they can balance budget this year, what about in ten years once you've salvaged and picked apart everything that wasn't nailed down. Do we start chopping up people and propagate a thriving black market for organs? I hope not. I welcome any questions or arguments that you may have. If you think Tiger Stadium should be tore down, your only seeing things fairly shortsightedly or catering to a developer that lives in the suburbs and sucks money out of the City while creating areas of isolation or worse a false sense of identity with the City and it's history in favor of a cultish car-culture hell bent on strip malling and life-style centering the life out of the dynamic interactions of a true city. | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 344 Registered: 11-2005 |
Drm, Rileys plan would be to keep the whole stadium not take it down to to Navin Field levels. Much different plans. | ||
Huggybear Member Username: Huggybear Post Number: 297 Registered: 08-2005 |
Tiger Stadium! Briggs Stadium! Navin Field! Bah. The site is really Western Market. If we are fixated on rolling back to the past, let's roll back to the beginning. | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4443 Registered: 10-2003 |
First off any plan that involves outlaw league baseball at Tiger Stadium lacks any real business sense. The best independent league teams draw at best 3000 fans a game. Those teams operate in towns far away from Major League Baseball. Tiger Stadium is of course less than a mile from the defending American League champs. I suppose an independent league team may draw well initially but the novelty would where off quickly. More to the point independent league baseball is a stupid idea for the hallowed ground of Tiger Stadium. Players on independent rosters are probably better athletes than anyone on this forum but in the hierarchy of professional baseball, they are the bottom of the barrel. Are you suggesting that good-enough-to-dream ballplayers hanging onto professional baseball by a thread is really an appropriate way to honor the century-old legacy of Tiger Stadium? The beauty of the Corktown Plan is the focus of youth baseball. Urban areas, Detroit especially, are lacking appropriate facilities for youth baseball. The ESPN Chattering Class wrings their hands weekly about the decline of African-American participation in baseball from tee ball all the way to the Majors. Restoring the hallowed field of Tiger Stadium for Detroit's young baseball players continues a tradition of baseball on that site that goes back 140 years. It also creates an opportunity to strengthen the game in Detroit for generations to come. quote: The current plan lacks thought and creativity. Really? Let's compare the plan the city of Detroit and Greater Corktown is putting together with what has happened in other cities. quote: Really? Let's compare the plan the city of Detroit and Greater Corktown is putting together with what has happened in other cities.  Shibe Park - Then and Now   Griffith Stadium - Then and Now   Comiskey Park - Then and Now  {image{Forbes} Forbes Field - Then and Now  Shall I continue? Because I can. | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4444 Registered: 10-2003 |
oops...here is Forbes Field back in the day:  | ||
Jb3 Member Username: Jb3 Post Number: 3 Registered: 06-2007 |
Jelk, i agree with you. Just do me a favor and don't get caught up in the 'all or nothing' mentality. Cities and especially public rec spaces are dynamic. They present opportunity for interaction for many facets and many generations of our citizens. You are right that turning Tiger Sta. into strictly an independent league for baseball is a stupid idea and that our youth deserve to have it. Doesn't mean that organized sports and leagues have no business there. "Are you suggesting that good-enough-to-dream ballplayers hanging onto professional baseball by a thread is really an appropriate way to honor the century-old legacy of Tiger Stadium? " Not everyone plays sports for prestige and money, there are actually alot of people that play for the love of the game (soccer, baseball, rugby...whatever) I'm sorry, but i don't see the 'bad business' sense by getting the community to use the field. It would strengthen the city's tax base tremendously by inviting amiable conditions to build new housing in the surrounding area. New housing means new business and more people. But huggybear is right, what about markets? Like i said before, there is an opportunity being missed here by focusing on an 'all or nothing' solution. Diversity is the word of the day. Great pics of before and after! | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 350 Registered: 11-2005 |
Just checked the time and I guess it has been changed to 6:30. | ||
Xd_brklyn Member Username: Xd_brklyn Post Number: 249 Registered: 10-2003 |
When the City of Detroit collected money for the maintenance and possible re-use of Tiger Stadium , it was to my knowledge the first time any city had ever thought of preserving & maintaining a Major League park. Even if you're a skeptic and think it was just a ploy to get Illitch some extra cash, it was an original idea. Since Detroit made plans to re-use Tiger Stadium, there's been a string of plans to reuse beloved sports parks. There's the reuse of Arsenal Stadium in London, the Maple Leafs Garden in Toronto, and possibly even something of Yankee Stadium, though I've heard mixed things there. And if the Red Sox ever move, it's unthinkable Fenway will get not get better treatment than all of the above. Back in the day, it was just common practice to level a Major League park. In 1965-64 during the New York World's Fair, people looked to Shea Stadium as the future. Little did they know, some forty plus years later that vision of the future would be replaced by a replica of old Ebbet's Field. To be fair, all these cities mentioned above are major municipalities with tax bases that Detroit can only imagine. But now with Cleveland looking to revive League Park, it is clear claiming something of your city's sport heritage adds to its status--even for a mid-tier city. It is obvious to see that the city did great harm to any re-use plan by waiting to do something for so long, and now when they decide to do something after the stadium has long been neglected, the City of Detroit and State of Michigan are in such bad shape, it makes it extremely difficult to do something right and exciting. If the Corktown Plan is the one the City of Detroit is going with, the news from the last Detroit News article sounds like it is a severely compromised Corktown plan. The idea to get urban kids a ball field to get them to play baseball again is a good one, but to get the kids excited about a baseball field now you will need a "wow" factor. Preserving as much of the stadium as possible is more likely to generate excitement than less. My take is that if there's no money now, any plan should wait until things got better or until The Tiger Stadium Conservancy has been given a reasonable time for raising the necessary funds. But then again, who knows what shape the stadium is in or will be in when things improve, but if there's time left better to use it to a better job than a mediocre one. | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4448 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Since the Detroit News article offered no specifics about the Corktown Plan I hazard to wonder why you would assume that the plan has been severely compromised? I remember about four years ago all the buzz and glitz over the Kimberley-Clarke preservation of the Book-Cadillac. It was a media feeding frenzy. That plan fell though. John Ferchill picked up the slack, kept his head down, and is getting the project done. I think Tiger Stadium is probably the same way. Many people have run their mouths with big ideas and vague platitudes about the stadium. All they've accomplished is putting some bumper stickers on the stadium walls. Corktown seems to be keeping its head down and keeping focused on success in the long-run as opposed to seeking out positive press in the short-term. (Message edited by Jelk on June 21, 2007) | ||
Xd_brklyn Member Username: Xd_brklyn Post Number: 251 Registered: 10-2003 |
"The plan approved Wednesday by the city's Economic Development Corp. calls for the stadium structure to be demolished by September 2008, if the conservancy doesn't come up with a plan to save the front entrance." I could be wrong, but I thought the front entrance was a given in the Corktown plan. So that would be a compromise and a good-size one if so. Again, my take would be to give Corktown a longer run to get it right and than the quicker one the city seems to be forcing on The Tiger Stadium Conservancy, which is an off-shoot of the Corktown group, correct? | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4449 Registered: 10-2003 |
I can understand how you saw that line in the story as suggesting compromise but since the Corktown plan has always talked about Michigan and Cochrane (the entrance has always been at Michigan and Trumbull, there were no gates at the other corner) I bet the reporter didn't get it exactly right. | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 351 Registered: 11-2005 |
The most historic part is at michigan and cochrane. I was at the hearing and gave my two minutes. They decided against the conservancy's plans because there was no money and no financing in place and they even said that there is a chance they might not be able to develop the plan and it could be sold to the highest bidder no matter what the plan. So the final decision from the planning commission... They decided to not let the conservancy's plan go to council at this time. One bright note is that DEGC asked for a copy of the navin field consortiums 2002 proposal. (Message edited by Urbanoutdoors on June 21, 2007) | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 352 Registered: 11-2005 |
So its back to the drawing board... | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4450 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Planning Commission didn't vote against anything. They didn't vote for anything either. But not voting on something is different than voting against it. | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 355 Registered: 11-2005 |
good point jelk, I changed the language. Thanks. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11610 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Seems they are leaving the planning commission out of the loop too. http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070622/UPDAT E/706220413/1003 | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4451 Registered: 10-2003 |
Actually the Corktown's Executive Director, the community project's Citizens District Council, and two representatives all spoke in favor of the project plan and answered questions about the communities plans for the Stadium. The Planning Commission non-decision was interesting to say the least. When the Historic District Commission opposed the demolition plan for the Madison-Lennox, for instance, they discussed the issue and voted on the subject. The Planning Commission did not discuss the Project Plan amongst themselves. They did not offer any comments in opposition to the plan nor did they express any opinion. They didn't even table the question until they could receive more information or receive clarity of unanswered questions. Basically they looked at the issue at shrugged. Typical Detroit-style timidity. New Detroit marketing slogan... Detroit: Can't Someone Else Do It? | ||
Xd_brklyn Member Username: Xd_brklyn Post Number: 252 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thanks for providing some of the details from the meeting. Appreciate it. | ||
Urbanoutdoors Member Username: Urbanoutdoors Post Number: 356 Registered: 11-2005 |
yeah what I got from the meeting is that there were too many question marks and not enough answers as of yet so they didn't really have anything left to discuss. If the conservancy comes up with some answers then it may pass eventually but it needs to have a plan that is backed up for after demolition instead of saying if the city demolished the 8.5 acres then it would be a more desirable space. | ||
Spacemonkey Member Username: Spacemonkey Post Number: 202 Registered: 03-2006 |
Make it a race track. Dirt track. Midget racing. |
