  Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 347 Registered: 11-2006 |
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070619/M ETRO/706190379 I remember starting a thread which was DOA about Ilitch hiring some an entertainment expert. I thought it might indicate something about a new arena. Apparently it had to do with the Masonic Temple: "The disclosure comes one month after Olympia hired an entertainment and sports facility operations expert. Dana Warg, president of Olympia Entertainment, was a vice president with sports and entertainment promoter AEG and oversaw day-to-day booking and operations of venues that included the Staples Center in Los Angeles. " Very interesting, I'd think. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 329 Registered: 05-2006 |
Funny how the Ilitch owned casino just a few blocks west of Masonic Temple isn't mentioned in the article. It is sad that even the Masons are abandoning their own temple. (Message edited by Ramcharger on June 19, 2007) | ||
Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 753 Registered: 02-2004 |
Why do businesses run to the Illitches? I can understand trying to get some of that concert money, but come on! | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1433 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Funny how the Illitch owned casino just a few blocks west of Masonic Temple isn't mentioned in the article." Probably because Olympia doesn't own it and the Masonic deal is with Olympia | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 330 Registered: 05-2006 |
Oh right, Marian Ilitch owns the casino and Mike Ilitch owns Olympia Entertainment. And, of course, they have nothing to do with each other and share no common interests; please! | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 314 Registered: 06-2005 |
I think he needs to fix the sht he owns now!! (UA)!!! | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 228 Registered: 06-2005 |
Thanks for posting that article. I'm glad to hear that there might be some positive changes for the Masonic. Sure the area is blighted, but it seems like just a few blocks. Cass Park could be a jewel once again. In fact, Horatio Earle said Cass Park was one of the major selling points for building the Masonic Temple at this location. If you're interested in seeing a little of the Temple this weekend, the Derby Girls have their last regular bout of the season on Saturday at 7pm. More info at www.DetroitDerbyGirls.com Go Pistolwhippers! | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4591 Registered: 08-2004 |
Let's quit the Ilitch bitching and be glad that someone is stepping up to the plate to keep it from closing, which would be devastating to Midtown AND Detroit. Do we need another empty MCS monolith on our hands?? It would be a sure way to kill off any potential plans for historic old Cass Tech. Who owns what is irrelevant, the fact is that this could be a win-win for both the remaining lodges at Masonic Temple, as well as Olympia, which will probably use it to host large events for nearby MotorCity Casino (and maybe even MGM), as well as events that normally bypass the Fox Theatre... who's stage is not as large as the Masonic's. I agree about the UA, but I don't see anyone else clamoring to take over booking for the Masonic. Is Bill Davidson doing anything besides figuring out how he can get another performance venue in the burbs... NO. So lets hope for the best. Since no one else is stepping up to the plate, the fact that Ilitch will totally dominate Detroit's entertainment, is of lesser interest than the fact that fewer empty hulks are sitting around rotting. | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 315 Registered: 06-2005 |
Gistok, the thing that gets me, when I was in town over memorial day. There was NOTHING at any venue other than the DSO and Tiger game. I wound up going to the GEM to see that play. Why would he want another venue when he doesnt even fill the ones he has! I couldnt even get into the Opera house or the Fox even for a tour! | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4592 Registered: 08-2004 |
Exmotowner, welcome to Summer!  The summer months are the slower months for performance venues around the country, except of course the outdoor venues. But also, there seems to be fewer traveling shows/concerts than in the past. These things seem to be cyclical for some reason (some years a lot of shows, other years fewer shows). Because of fewer traveling shows, some theatres around the country are in financial trouble. Masonic's problems are partly because of that, partly because of the flight of some Masonic lodges. | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 316 Registered: 06-2005 |
Yea, Your right I guess, but it just amazed me that with the city begging for people to come downtown, nothing was really happening. (venue wise). Hell if you want folks to come downtown, you have to give em a reason! Just my thoughts. | ||
Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 1152 Registered: 09-2004 |
Dear Exmotowner, I'm sorry there wasn't anything going on for you when you came into town. I promise to have something for you next year that isn't too hot (DEMF) or Cold (DSO). We'll have something just right. Sincerely, Detroit PS - I'm getting old and lonely, please tell me you'll visit more than once a decade. (Message edited by sharmaal on June 19, 2007) | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4593 Registered: 08-2004 |
The slowest month of course is August, which is the only month that Preservation Wayne can get into all the downtown historic theatres for our annual tour. Second Saturday of August! | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 120 Registered: 03-2007 |
The loss of the Shrine and Scottish Rite is devastating to the least. The Shrine was one of the most important tenants and paid the most rent of for decades. My association with the former Phoenicia Lodge #531 and Phoenicia-Waverly Lodge #527 through family members has allowed me to find out a few things. Throughout the 1980's and 1990's the Grand Lodge of Michigan would not allow any lodges to leave the Masonic Temple. In the 1980's Phoenicia was forced to merge with Waverly to stay in existence because Grand Lodge would not permit them to leave the Temple. Phoenicia-Waverly #527 attempted to leave the Masonic Temple for Farmington in the late 1980's in attempt to preserve the lodge because the rent is high at the Temple if the membership is decreasing or the number of life members is increasing. After 40 years of membership life members are not required to pay dues. Grand Lodge of MI forbid Phoenicia-Waverly #527 from leaving the Temple and consequently they dissolved around 2000. The remaining members joined Zion #1. MTA and Grand Lodge was unsuccessful in keeping the Shrine and the Scottish Rite there, so the choice becomes let the craft lodges leave or have more craft lodges dissolve ? That building one of the greatest buildings in the United States of America but the number of dues paying Masons are not able to support a building of that size anymore, sadly. However, I was surprised to see Perfection Mosaic Lodge #530 has returned to the Temple after 30 years. I wonder if they were "encouraged" by Grand Lodge. | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 64 Registered: 05-2007 |
Quote: "Funny how the Illitch owned casino just a few blocks west of Masonic Temple isn't mentioned in the article." Thejesus, interesting you picked that subtle omission up. From April 2005 to early 2006, Ilitch had highly promoted its acquisition of MCC. In fact, it was splashed all over the IH, Inc. web site, the logo had been added to the IH, Inc. masthead. Then prior to the SuperBowl, word began to get out about a possible "Focus on the Family" boycott of Little Caesars, Tigers, etc.; because, as Dr. Dobson's lieutenants said, gambling tainted the other wholesome IH, Inc. brands. (interesting Focus on the Family's web site quieted down and by the end of 2006 had even purged any talk of a boycott from web copy; however,some of us archived the web pages before they were sanitized or were able to grab them from Google via cache). It's been suggested that Dobson worked out some deal with Ilitch like the ones he had with Abramoff. Within 3-4 months, the MCC logo had been exacted from the IH, Inc. masthead (take a look at Ilitchholdings.com and you'll see the empty space on the far right in the line up of brands); nearly all but one or two references had been purged from IH, Inc. web pages; and MCC was no longer included in the boilerplate closing paragraph used in IH, Inc. press releases, etc. as it previously was. Conspicuous by absence given the big hoopla about the local gal buying the casino and keeping it all in the local family. (that's a fallacy too.) Then in December 2006 a NYT sports columnist began raising questions again about co-mingling the gambling activities with baseball. Even greater distance was put between MCC and the rest of the IH, Inc. empire at the beginning of 2007. Clearly someone was concerned. BTW, IH, Inc. is the holding co. for all M & M Ilitch companies. MotorCity Casino is not incorporated but is a d/b/a for Detroit Entertainment LLC. Detroit Entertainment LLC is owned by IH Gaming, Inc. When Marian bought outstanding interest Mandalay Resort Group (with blessing of MGM/Mirage), the transaction was a merger with Circus Circus Michigan, Inc. and IH Gaming, Inc. as the survivor. (all available for verification by reviewing documents at http://www.dleg.state.mi.us/) IH, Inc.'s V.P. tax affairs is also the authorized agent for IH Gaming, Inc. Mike I. is chairman of IH, Inc. and Marian is vice chairwoman of the parent company. It's assumed that IH Gaming, Inc. is a subsidiary of IH, Inc. as are all the other Ilitch family business units. Somehow they've convinced Bud Selig that layering Mike and the Tigers with two paper entities both of which are completely controlled by his wife who is the vice chairwoman of the parent co., makes it all ok. But at the end of the day it sure looks like Mike is chairman of the company that includes a subsidiary which wholely owns an LLC that's got one true member which does business as MotorCity Casino. There is a clear desire to create the impression that MotorCity Casino has been unlinked from the other Ilitch Holdings, Inc. brands, you're absolutely correct! If you've pulled off one elaborate sham, you've no doubt pulled off many others. And then it's all about "trust." I think this whole deal is what's called "having her cake and eating it too." | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4607 Registered: 08-2004 |
Verifiable... Marion and (by co-ownership) Mike Ilitch both passed the Michigan State Gaming Commission scrutiny before Marion got her gaming license. If there was anything shady in their past, wouldn't it have been uncovered? (Message edited by Gistok on June 20, 2007) | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 65 Registered: 05-2007 |
Marian Ilitch applied for a gaming license not Mike Ilitch. Quote: "Shady?" No one suggested shady. What's suggested is that MLB bans owners, managers, players involvement with gambling. If you're in one of those categories you can't even go into a gambling hall. Further, the scrutiny by MLB and by the MGCB you reference took place almost a decade ago. A lot can change in ten years. Just because their companies were set up a certain way ten years ago doesn't mean that's how they're arranged now. For instance, ten years ago the lady did not own 100% of MCC. There was no IH Gaming, Inc. etc. etc. etc. Now she's also involved in potential casinos in NY, elsewhere in Michigan and in CA. They've said there wasn't anything wrong with Gaming, that it was good for Detroit, etc. but now they're afraid to mention it in the same sentence with their other venerable brands. What sort of message does that send? "Shady?" She's got the Darth Vader from Grosse Pointe Shores office sharing in the Exec Suite of IH, Inc. And that guy's fully capable of doing anything that needs to be done so she can keep an arms distance. That guy beat on a 12 year old in the middle of the street late at nite until he was bruised and bloodied up and then attempted to portray himself as the victim because media reported on his shameful activity rather than accept responsibility. Then he married the kid's Mom and shortly there after started up an affair with a younger woman, the daughter of the chairman of a U.P. Indian tribe he partners with. When it came time to divorce the battered boy's Mom, they guy enlists the younger woman in a "scam" to shield assets during divorce proceedings, only to turn around and cheat her out of things he promised her if she helped. And then there's all the questionable political fundraising activity and in at least one case now he's been fined for demonstrating flat out arrogance and contempt for a state's political reform laws blowing off a requirement to report a $26,600 contribution to a GOP committee as if the law doesn't apply to him! [ALL Documented violations of the law] Who needs to be "shady" when shady works in the office next to you and you give Shady access to your private jet. | ||
Exmotowner Member Username: Exmotowner Post Number: 318 Registered: 06-2005 |
Sharmaal: Your funny! I promise I wont take another 10 years before coming home. The city looked great and even though I couldnt show my partner the fox or opera house, We had a great time and the city (downtown) never looked better. Hubby even said "it wasnt tragic" LOL. I did take him into the guardian building and he was impressed. (but how could you not be)? | ||
Astagafa Member Username: Astagafa Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2007 |
I think it's great that someone is taking over the management of the Masonic. Every time I go by there I shake my head. Nederlander obvious had more important things to worry about. I think the theater is actually a little smaller than the Fox at around 3,400 seats. but it should compliment the other Ilitch venues of Comerica Park, the Joe, Cobo, Fox and now the Masonic. The Masonic and the neighborhood needs to be cleaned up to make people feel safe. But things could be looking up for midtown. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4612 Registered: 08-2004 |
Welcome to the forum Astagafa!! The Masonic Temple Theatre is actually larger than you think. But this venue was built as an auditorium for Masonic functions, rather than a performing arts space. Originally it had about 5,000 seats (the Fox has 5,174 maximum seating). However due to the horseshoe shape seating configuration of the auditorium (most movie palaces have fan shaped auditoriums), there are extremely poor sight lines on the seats to the far left and far right of the stage. So they do not use those seats. Nor do they use the seats behind columns, of which there are several in the back of the main floor. The actual "used" maximum seating at Masonic is therefore 4,404. And you are correct... thank God that the Ilitch folks are negotiating a lease for the theatre space in that 1,038 room monolith. Leasing out the theatre space is what kept the building going for all these years. If the Masonic Temple were to close, it would be a devastating blow to the area, since reuse for that building is extremely unlikely. Just what reuse could one have with all those Masonic lodges? Certainly not use them for residential, retail or commercial space! The building heating bill alone must be outrageous! (Message edited by Gistok on June 20, 2007) | ||
Bumble Member Username: Bumble Post Number: 176 Registered: 11-2004 |
Nederlander isn't in charge of pulling the weeds in the sidewalk around the Masonic Temple. You'd think such an active organization would take better care of its physical surroundings. Those planters overgrown with weeds?! Sheesh. Clean that shit up. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4613 Registered: 08-2004 |
From what I understand flowers don't last long in that neighborhood. Drug addicts rip them out and try to sell them to passersby. The human population in that area needs to be cleaned up first... | ||
Bumble Member Username: Bumble Post Number: 177 Registered: 11-2004 |
Were you served that bullshit on a Masonic tour? Fact is the Masonic Temple has been grossly mismanaged for the last 25-30 years, and they are their own worst enemy. | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 121 Registered: 03-2007 |
Fact is the Grand Lodge of MI has not looked at the big picture over the years. The refusal of permitting certain lodges to leave has resulted in them having to turn in their charters and dissolve. Usually, the lodges cease when merging is no longer practical. "Fact is the Masonic Temple has been grossly mismanaged for the last 25-30 years, and they are their own worst enemy." What is your problem with MTA over the years ? Shrine, Zion, Scottish Rite, Knights Templar had too much control ? | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 122 Registered: 03-2007 |
" Leasing out the theatre space is what kept the building going for all these years" Gistok, I could not disagree with you more. What kept that Temple going all those years were the Shrine, Scottish Rite, Knights Templar, all the craft lodges like Zion, Ashlar, Palestine, Detroit Lodge #2, etc. and the defunct ones such as Phoenicia and Waverly. The Shrine and Scottish Rite leaving were devastating along with the other lodges dissolving over the years. The fact is the Temple is hurting because freemasonry is hurting. If the current lodges at the Temple were strong and several lodges had not dissolved over the last 20 years or left for the suburbs in the 1970's the revenue from the theater would be a luxury not a necessity. In regards to the neighborhood it was a concern in the 1950's to a small degree, and to a larger degree in the 1960's. In the 1970's it became the one of the biggest issues at MTA meetings. | ||
Bumble Member Username: Bumble Post Number: 179 Registered: 11-2004 |
I just looked at the annual reports going back 15-20 years. Same names keep popping up and millions of dollars in the bank. How else besides mismanagement do you get from that point to foreclosure? | ||
Bumble Member Username: Bumble Post Number: 180 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: And the MTA squandered its influence by proposing harebrained schemes like turning Cass Park into a parking lot for the theater. Silly. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4615 Registered: 08-2004 |
How ironic, an organization of mostly business people can't even manage the business of running an organization!  The sad thing about the Masonic Temple is that due to its' vastness of over 1,000 rooms, and the unique layout with all the lodges (and their suites of rooms) and the enormous public rooms (theatres, ballrooms, drill hall), any rehab possibilities are extremely limited. I see Masonic orders in general as going the same way as European ethnic Social Clubs of Detroit of the 19th and 20th century... disappearing one by one. | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 123 Registered: 03-2007 |
"I just looked at the annual reports going back 15-20 years. Same names keep popping up and millions of dollars in the bank. How else besides mismanagement do you get from that point to foreclosure?" Money for running the theater is a quick fix in regards to the foreclosure problem. The fundamental problem is those remaining lodges have memberships dying off and not enough incoming entered apprentices to offset. Also, lodges with many life members who of course are not required to pay dues hurt the lodge treasury. Grand Lodge needs to step up to the plate if they want to save that building. They have forbid the remaining lodges from leaving over the years. They need to compensate for that fact unless they want to lose more lodges. In my opinion the membership numbers are not there to support that building anymore, SADLY. What's your opinion of the neighborhood effect on the building ? I knew lodge members that were Detroit residents and that hated going to Temple for business meetings; but most of all election night because it ran late and degree nights to some extent. | ||
Bumble Member Username: Bumble Post Number: 181 Registered: 11-2004 |
It seems the Masons themselves are the only ones who don't recognize that Masonry will be included among other quaint practices in historical footnotes. A dwindling membership is not a new occurence, and a little foresight and business acumen fifteen years ago could have prevented the current crisis. Endowments and trust funds could have ensured the building's continuing stewardship. Too late for that now. I think the neighborhood has been a convenient scapegoat for the decline of Masonry. I don't care how few or how old its members, there's just no excuse for the state of the sidewalks and planters surrounding the Temple. The Masons have also gone out of their way to deplore the condition of the neighborhood. Hey, curse the darkness or light a candle. Why would anyone want to do business with you when you badmouth your own place of business?! At a time when other businesses are doing well in the same neighborhood, and at a time when other organizations sponsor events in parks across the city, the Masons are holed up in the Armory defending themselves against an imaginary enemy. Clubhouse mentality meets bunker mentality with disasterous results. . . . The Masons will be lucky if they get a break. Why not wait for foreclosure and just buy the whole place for a song instead of having to contend with a bunch of silly stipulations? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5675 Registered: 10-2003 |
While you make some good points, it's obvious you have an axe to grind with even the general idea of a Freemasons organization. The temple's fate has been that of most everything in Detroit: a dwindling population trying to pay for structures, programs, ect...meant for groups many times their current size. I'm not trying to excuse the mason's stewardship of the property (which really is lacking), but it shouldn't be shocking or unexpected when you see how good of stewards much of the business community has been to the greater community. | ||
Civilprotectionunit4346 Member Username: Civilprotectionunit4346 Post Number: 21 Registered: 06-2007 |
I really can't stand Illitch & the K' Kilpatrick. Both of them haven't done very good for the city, yes downtown has improved a bit, but what ive noticed is during and after major events the people who come downtown usually scatter like roaches when the lights come on once a game or event is over. People just don't want to stay downtown, I don't know why they want to build a Macy's downtown & why they spent money on the riverfront when they could've used that money to fix the rest of the city that's in bad shape. I don't know, please anyone don't take this post seriously this is my own take on the whole situation. Ive seen the Book-Cadillac restoration and it's coming along great. They can't get people to buy loft's downtown with the city tax and all. I don't know folk's I don't support the Illitch's...I think the city should spend money on Restoring MCS and the Historic Landmark Tiger Stadium. Want some revitalization....take dramatic steps. | ||
Bumble Member Username: Bumble Post Number: 182 Registered: 11-2004 |
Having an ax to grind would suggest that I have a dog in this fight, and I don't. I'm just an outside observer appalled by decades of miscues and bad decisions jeopardizing an amazing institution at a time when relative prosperity is at hand. To blame it on the neighborhood is insult to injury. quote: This is complete bullshit. Plenty of large and small businesses have pulled their weight and then some in this city, not that an municipality should consider itself a charity case. | ||
Astagafa Member Username: Astagafa Post Number: 8 Registered: 05-2007 |
Great ideas Civil but you can't restore properties that can not pay for themselves. If you restored Tiger Stadium...how do you you recoup the costs? There are about 1000 speculators in town and about a dozen developers. And nobody is developing without some kind of tax abatement or public assistance. The fedral/state/local programs are there to encourage folks to develop the projects in an urban area. I don't have any problem with them taking avantage of them. But they have to be projects that make economic sense. | ||
Civilprotectionunit4346 Member Username: Civilprotectionunit4346 Post Number: 26 Registered: 06-2007 |
Just an idea...I think that if they did work on MCS and restored it(gave some companies that would do the re-development of it some kind of tax break or something) I think more other firms would follow suit. I can dream can't I? What's strange is that they pushed the Ole' Tiger Stadium Demo' to Sept' of next year. Maybe someone's trying to do something about it, it is a registered historical landmark. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4630 Registered: 08-2004 |
Civil... a lot of folks scatter after a game to restaurants and bars downtown afterwards. It just so happens that Mike Ilitch had most of the land around Comerica Park cleared for a sea of parking. So there's no point in staying in that immediate vicinity. But walk along lower Woodward, Broadway and other restaurant rows, and you'll see the spillover after a game. Ditto for the Red Wings. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4631 Registered: 08-2004 |
Civil... a lot of folks scatter after a game to restaurants and bars downtown afterwards. It just so happens that Mike Ilitch had most of the land around Comerica Park cleared for a sea of parking. So there's no point in staying in that immediate vicinity. But walk along lower Woodward, Park Ave., Broadway and other restaurant/bar areas, and you'll see the spillover after a game. Ditto for the Red Wings. | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 339 Registered: 11-2006 |
I think detroit is coming along just fine. It takes time and the steps the city is taking are the building blocks for growing success. Now with the Masonic management for the theater is a start. Bay City's temple recently closed and a group has bought it for community use. The Scottish Rite has a building attached and still in use in Bay City though. Anyway, some ideas for reuse of the building, could it make good office space with out modification. I haven't walked though it. Or would it make a really interesting bed and breakfast. With some creativity there can be a vision for the use of the building. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4632 Registered: 08-2004 |
The only reuse I can see for the lodge suites of rooms is either courtrooms or churches. It would be strange to have a building of churches, so courtrooms is the only other even remote possibility I can see for the lodges. With 1038 rooms it's just too vast for a B&B... it would be like trying to turn the old GM HQ into a B&B! I'm sure someone with vision could turn it into some multipurpose complex... but I just cannot see it. 6nois, you really need to go thru it to know what I mean. It is sooooo unique and bizarre. From the 2 vast underground ballrooms, to a huge drill hall (that is so large it used to house the Detroit Auto Show in the 40's)... To some of the lodges that look like medieval cathedrals, ancient Egyptian Palaces, and English Neo-Classic Ballrooms... To the 3 theatres... the 4404 seat Masonic, the 1585 seat Scottish Rite, and the 900 seat unfinished never used theatre (with balcony) in the top of the tower... The place defies description! (Message edited by Gistok on June 21, 2007) | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 344 Registered: 11-2006 |
When do they do tours? I would really like to go through the building. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1293 Registered: 02-2004 |
From the Historical Museum website. This really is a great tour....too bad it's sold out. Call them and maybe they can add another tour this year. Masonic Temple Saturday, June 30 / 11 a.m. SOLD OUT! One of our most popular tours! When George Mason designed the largest Masonic temple in the world, he created a shrine to architecture at its symbolic apex. Design and ritual fuse on this adventure in Detroit’s mighty Masonic. Get caught in the mystery. SOLD OUT! | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 231 Registered: 06-2005 |
You can always contact the Temple directly for tours. quote: Really? I'm curious how they would get cars in there. I didn't think the freight elevator was that large. While Googling about this, I read that there wasn't a Detroit Auto Show from 1941 to 1953 due to WWII. http://www.naias.com/SubPage.a spx?id=246 | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 858 Registered: 11-2003 |
Some of this discussion triggers oddly nostalgic thoughts of Skulker. He must really be gone, because if he were still here, is there any doubt that a d*mbf*ck*stan smackdown would have been lobbed at a couple of today's posts in this thread? In any event, I hope that the Ilitch organization can provide some stability to the Temple and assist the Masons in reviving their organization. (Message edited by swingline on June 21, 2007) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3052 Registered: 02-2005 |
Perhaps, in addition to the theatres, it could become a convention/events center with rooms to rent for meetings, etc. Multipurpose is definitly the key. Theatre, restaurant(s), event space, hotel rooms, members-only space for the Masons. Perhaps a museum exhibit on Mason history (though they do like to keep quiet). | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4633 Registered: 08-2004 |
Fishtoes2000, glad you asked about the Drill Hall use as an auto show! They actually used outside cranes to hoist the cars up to the drill hall floor (something like the 5th floor). And then when it was over, they hoisted them back down. I'm assuming that some window opening was large enough, but it wasn't specified in the booklet on the Masonic Temple. | ||
Fishtoes2000 Member Username: Fishtoes2000 Post Number: 232 Registered: 06-2005 |
Wow, Gistok! That's very cool trivia. Thanks for posting that. | ||
Billk Member Username: Billk Post Number: 20 Registered: 09-2005 |
With Saint Andrews for sale, and the Moose being sold, this sounds like a good idea to me. | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 124 Registered: 03-2007 |
Actually, It wouldn't surprise me if a good number of Masons want the Temple in foreclosure. That way they can leave without having to dissolve and Grand Lodge will be unable to force them into staying in the Temple I think outsiders want the building saved more than the masons. However, Masons are the people paying the dues toward rent in the building. I agree that endowments should have been set up earlier and lacked foresight in that regard. However, many look at the Temple has simply a functional use building and not a museum. The neighborhood has been a factor for 50 years so we disagree on that point. It helped accelerate the decline of certain lodges. Ultimately, freemasonry would still face the lower membership crisis. However, to deny that remaining at the Temple has not accelerated the decline for certain lodges is not reality. Attracting new membership to freemasonry is difficult enough, but a a good number of potential members have been turned off by the Temple's location, and instead selected membership with lodges in the suburbs. Moreover, the neighborhood was a factor before they had the parking lot behind the theater and had to park on the streets. Additionally, it was a factor when drug deals went "bad" in the vicinity of the Temple. In regards to the "bunker mentality" the Masons are just out of their element in the Cass Corridor. Hell, even some of the masons that still lived in the Cass Corridor in the 1960's and 1970's had a bunker mentality towards the neighborhood. The last person left to close the lodge for a meeting has been a dreaded duty because of stuff that has happened over the years around there. The reality is they will probably lose the building at some point. The neighborhood factor has just accelerated that process a little faster. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 4634 Registered: 08-2004 |
Mackinaw, I too think that a convention center type facility would be a good idea. But it would probably work better without the Masons, since their lodges would be the meeting rooms. And what unique meeting rooms they would become! Between a Romanesque Church, Egyptian Hypostyle Hall, Ancient Greek Temple, English Neoclassic Ballroom etc, it would certainly be like no other meeting convention facility I know of. Of course, the key is to get the Cass Park area developed! And get rid of the riff-raff... | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 197 Registered: 02-2007 |
Add my vote for the "pro" column - I don't see anyone else with money to back their vision/dream. Detroit's I-man has a better track record than a lot of other "talkers." | ||
Bumble Member Username: Bumble Post Number: 183 Registered: 11-2004 |
Eh, other businesses and organizations have stuck it out and done right by the neighborhood. The Masons love to tell stories about the big bad Corridor. Too bad many of them are fabricated. I enjoy the one about a statue of Lewis Cass being carted away for scrap to be replaced by Robert Burns. Great story; complete bullshit. I think that's pretty much the case every time I hear about all the "bad things" that have happened to the Shriners parking on Temple or the Masons locking up for the night. It also strikes me that young members have been pretty gung-ho about the neighborhood and the building but have been scared away by the old timers who re-hash the same, tired stories of imaginary danger or who are so tied up in a we-don't-do-things-that-way mentality that it stifles any zeal for change. The old guard is afraid of something; I don't know what. | ||
Treble484 Member Username: Treble484 Post Number: 19 Registered: 02-2006 |
My Lodge Moved out in 2000 it was strictly financial. If we could have stayed we would have. Even after a couple of rent reductions we were faced with stay and spend ourselves out of existence or try and salvage the Lodge. It was designed when the Detroit area Masons numbered over 100,000. Now the membership in the whole state of Michigan is less than 60,000. The current membership can no longer support the building all by themselves. I feel that this is a move in the right direction for the building. Ilich is just what it needs right now to stay vibrant. | ||
Charlie Member Username: Charlie Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2007 |
I hesitate to post my first comment on such a polarizing topic but here it is anyway (I have always been more brave than smart): The MTA is largely responsible for the current state of affairs due to a lack of response or the wrong response to the realities of a declining membership. To be fair, the people who find themselves scrambling to save the MTA are not necessarily the people who got it there but the facts remain the same. The people who have run the MTA over the years have largely been a sincere and dedicated group but too many are just not qualified. Professional management and a concentrated effort to create trusts and/or bequests were needed long ago. Further, as someone who as seen the numbers in great detail I can tell you that the cost to operate and maintain this building are staggering. The extreme cost combined with the limited use and poor economic viability of the project further cripple a rescue attempt. 20 years ago it was a simple (though not easy) fix, 10 years ago it would have been difficult, 5 years ago it was possible but now it will take a "white knight". Illitch may just be that knight. Disclaimer: I am not now nor have I ever been a member of the MTA. | ||
Verifiable Member Username: Verifiable Post Number: 67 Registered: 05-2007 |
Charlie, your point seems well made. When I was in Italy three years ago, I had hired local guides (PhD's in art history, history, literature) in the big cities (Rome, Florence, Venice, etc.). I spent 4 hours with them each day and each of them explained a similar plight of the beautiful Catholic churches and cathedrals in Italy, and the guides claimed throughout Europe. Apparently many of them are being abandoned or close to abandonment for similar reasons, younger generations present declining interest and earlier generations failed to find new sources for endowments yet lived "good" lives on the funds left by earlier pre-world war generations until there was nothing left. Absolutely extraordinary structures were boarded and abandoned ... in Italy of all places, the country that hosts Vatican City. My great grandfather was a Mason but neither my father nor grandfather carried on the tradition... nor have I. Probably similar in many families and communities. |
