 
Rooms222
Member
Username: Rooms222
Post Number: 19
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:27 pm: |    |
I had dealings with one of the partners at one of the Major firms mentioned above, and was surprised that they only had three summer associates this year. Yes, they were from local law schools, but that is a very small number to hire. The growth has not been present in the Detroit lawfirm market for at least a decade. Even then, routine work for the Big 3 was being shifted to firms in Grand Rapids, St. Louis, Cleveland, etc. that offered a "better overall experience and outcome" for less money.
If you are going to be a lawyer, go to the best school you can and be ranked as high in the class as you can. The top 5% of Cooley will have a good range of opportunities while the top 20-25% of Wayne State will also have a good range of opportunities. Most people at the U. of M. will have a good range of opportunities, both in law school and afterwards. |
Spaceman_spiff
Member
Username: Spaceman_spiff
Post Number: 84
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 12:36 pm: | |
Anybody know of good discussion forums for practicing lawyers and law students?
-spiff |
Upinottawa
Member
Username: Upinottawa
Post Number: 925
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:05 pm: | |
^One appears to have been created! |
Sarge
Member
Username: Sarge
Post Number: 684
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:10 pm: | |
Spiff,
It appears there are quite a few lawyers here. Post your questions and see if you don't get the answers you seek. |
Detroitrulez
Member
Username: Detroitrulez
Post Number: 308
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:38 pm: | |
vault.com |
Spaceman_spiff
Member
Username: Spaceman_spiff
Post Number: 85
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 1:40 pm: | |
Off the top of my head...
What legal markets are currently underserved in metro Detroit? Are there growing fields for which clients must employ attorneys outside the city? What legal contract services are in place for lawyers who are in a time crunch and need research help? Is there a market for entry level lawyers who are willing to access remote depositions, courtrooms, difficult clients? What are typical billing rates for new lawyers (flat fees?)? What are cost effective marketing techniques for accessing non lawyers/clients. for other lawyers? What legal suites are currently operational in the city / How does one locate legal suite listings? Is offering services for space acceptable in the legal community? What elements need to be included in a legal business plan in order to inspire confidence in lenders? How do your offices handle file management and storage? What agencies and organizations offer low cost mailings or forms for practice? Are court appointments easily obtained? What other sources of income are available. How does one write a P/L for a solo/small practice with the above uncertainties? Is it better to practice with another firm or agency for a few years or to start a practice out of law school?
More to come later
-spiff |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 4733
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 2:47 pm: | |
http://messageboard.tuckermax. com/showthread.php?t=9395
This link has a lot of great insight for those thinking about a career in law. Check it out. |
Cman710
Member
Username: Cman710
Post Number: 350
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 3:28 pm: | |
Mackinaw,
I would highly recommend going to the best law school that you can. More than in most fields, your post-graduation options can be severely limited based on where you go to school. Moreover, the higher ranked school you go to, the less pressure there will be for you to do well in school, since you will have an easier time finding a job after. You might gain more practical experience at a more "local" school, but you will be just as valuable to many employers having gone to a "national" school. In fact, you may be more valuable having gone to a "national" school. That's because, regardless of where you go to school, you will not know much about the practice of law when you graduate. So really, many employers will look for the smartest employees they can find, given that you will learn so much as you go along.
I would be happy to elaborate (privately) if you like, but I can say that while attending a top school may not have given me a better legal education, it did provide me with many more options afterwards. And I think that as I get deeper into my career, that will only become more and more important. |
Mayor_sekou
Member
Username: Mayor_sekou
Post Number: 1170
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 1:40 am: | |
This struck me on the message board link:
"Remember in HS there were those people who would not let you copy homework and would look at you in disgust for even asking. Well get ready because 95% of law school are those people. So you will be surrounded by people you either cant stand or you are one of those people that the rest of us cant stand."
And I HATE those type of people, good god, no wonder people hate lawyers. This thread and that site is eye opening though. |
Upinottawa
Member
Username: Upinottawa
Post Number: 926
Registered: 09-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 9:23 am: | |
I would not go as far as 95%. There are plenty of decent people who go to law school. That being said, do not expect your law school friends (on average) to be nearly as interesting and diverse (by way of interests) as your undergrad friends.
Here is another tip: during your first year of law school you will be bombarded by why you want/need to work for a Wall Street firm (in Canada, it was a Bay Street firm). You will be surprised when even your Socialist, Hippie, Feminist friends start to buy into the Wall Street thing.
Don't worry, though. By the start of third year those who do not get Wall Street jobs will say how they never wanted to sell out in the first place....  |
Sarge
Member
Username: Sarge
Post Number: 688
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 11:55 am: | |
Spiff,
I’ve tried to answer your questions. Some are beyond my expertise. Hope this helps.
quote:What legal markets are currently underserved in metro Detroit?
You probably would have to check with the local bar associations or social scientists for a comprehensive answer to this question, but I would assume it would be those who can’t afford lawyers (working class folks who haven’t been damaged enough to warrant a contingency engagement) or those folks who have been damaged but whose right to recovery has been severely limited by the legislature. (i.e., insureds vs. their carriers – at least when I was practicing there)
quote:Are there growing fields for which clients must employ attorneys outside the city?
I wouldn’t think so unless there is some local prejudice or conflict. There are a LOT of lawyers in the metro area.
quote:What legal contract services are in place for lawyers who are in a time crunch and need research help?
I have no idea, but I am sure they exist. Moreover, there are always solos available on a contract basis.
quote:Is there a market for entry level lawyers who are willing to access remote depositions, courtrooms, difficult clients?
I’m not really sure what you are asking here.
quote:What are typical billing rates for new lawyers (flat fees?)?
It depends on the type of engagement. Some criminal and family lawyers accept flat fees. PI lawyers usually have contingency arrangements. Other civil and commercial litigation is usually hourly and the rates vary based on a number of factors. You might be billed out at $300 an hour as a first year associate at one firm but only $150 at another, regardless of the value of the work you actually do.
quote:What are cost effective marketing techniques for accessing non lawyers/clients for other lawyers?
Publicly writing and speaking. Joining groups that further the public good and place you in the company of those who have the need for lawyers.
quote:What legal suites are currently operational in the city / How does one locate legal suite listings?
No idea. Check the publications of the state and local bar associations.
quote:Is offering services for space acceptable in the legal community?
I’ve never heard of such an engagement, but I would certainly consider it if I thought it was a net gain for my firm.
quote:What elements need to be included in a legal business plan in order to inspire confidence in lenders?
No idea. Probably the proven ability to generate cash flow.
quote:How do your offices handle file management and storage?
Hard copies of file onsite for active cases and those that have been active within the past 12 months. All others sent to low cost storage. Digital copies of files on computer unless too voluminous or otherwise unnecessary.
quote:What agencies and organizations offer low cost mailings or forms for practice?
In Michigan, the Supreme Court offers a plethora of accepted forms for use by lawyers. I’m sure there are also litigation guides published by the state bar or MCLE. Mailings are pretty standard per USPS. If you're looking to advertise with low cost mailings/handbills, I’m sure it varies by area.
quote:Are court appointments easily obtained?
I really don’t know.
quote:What other sources of income are available?
You can do all sorts of things. Your only limitation is you.
quote:How does one write a P/L for a solo/small practice with the above uncertainties?
I don’t know the answer to this as I haven’t had to.
quote:Is it better to practice with another firm or agency for a few years or to start a practice out of law school?
You absolutely should practice with another firm or agency for a few years before hanging out a shingle (assuming that is what you want to do). There is nothing that drives me crazier than having an opponent who has no idea what he or she is doing and tries to figure it out as he or she goes along. It makes the case that much harder to deal with for all involved. I know this sounds crazy, but nine out of ten times I would much rather have a smart and experienced opponent than some goofball who is trying to figure it out on his own. Having a good mentor is crucial -- Not only to teach you how to do things, but also to teach you how NOT to do things. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1694
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 12:03 pm: | |
Sarge:
Thank you posting those replies to Spiff...I also found them helpful... |
Sarge
Member
Username: Sarge
Post Number: 689
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 12:15 pm: | |
No prob, TheJ. Learn as much as you can early on. You will appreciate it later. |
Spaceman_spiff
Member
Username: Spaceman_spiff
Post Number: 86
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 5:18 pm: | |
Thanks for the input Sarge. This forum has indeed been extremely helpful to me thus far.
-spiff |
Goblue
Member
Username: Goblue
Post Number: 196
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 7:21 pm: | |
If there's one attorney living in a town he/she will starve to death...if there are two they both make a good living. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1700
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Friday, July 27, 2007 - 10:58 am: | |
A couple of you have mentioned that PI work isn't what it used to be because of laws/regulations that were passed during Engler's administration...
I am curious to learn more about this and I was hoping one of you could point me in the right direction to shorten my research
Thanks in advance |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1711
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Monday, July 30, 2007 - 12:43 pm: | |
bump |
Sarge
Member
Username: Sarge
Post Number: 691
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 31, 2007 - 12:41 pm: | |
TheJ,
I haven't practiced in Michigan in almost 8 years and when I did I didn't do any PI work. However, if the law there is anything like in Texas, you might find some of the following:
1. Damage caps on anything other than economic damages. (i.e. impairment, pain and suffering, mental anguish, etc);
2. Crazy procedural hurdles if you are trying to recover for medical malpractice. (Docs and their malpractice carriers have a lot of power with the legislators.);
3. Limitations on the admission of expert testimony.
4. All sorts of other idiotic procedural hurdles to recovery;
5. Allowing Defendants to identify responsible third parties without any evidence to support same. (i.e. "I didn't cause the accident, it was a shiny red car filled with people from the wrong side of the tracks who fled from the scene.");
6. Limiting or eliminating the collateral source rule. (i.e. you only get to recover the medical expenses you actually pay out of pocket, not those paid by your insurance carrier. Despite the fact that YOU don't pay those premiums to let people who hurt you off the hook.)
There are probably more but these are the first that come to mind......
Hope this helps..... |
Ron
Member
Username: Ron
Post Number: 336
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 1:22 pm: | |
Two of the more insidious remnants of Engler's era are the "open and obvious" doctrine (judicially expanded by Engler appointees), and the raising of the threshold injury to recover in auto accidents (death, disabled, or "a serious impairment of an important bodily function"). The open and obvious doctrine has done more to cripple the PI practice than anything else, IMO. |
Ron
Member
Username: Ron
Post Number: 337
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 1:25 pm: | |
Oh, sorry. I forgot to mention the total abrogation of liability for pharmaceutical manufacturers for drugs that received FDA approval, even if that approval was obtained via fraud. Along with the limitations on damages and other items very similar, mentioned by Sarge. |
Ray
Member
Username: Ray
Post Number: 967
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 01, 2007 - 7:26 pm: | |
The legal market here is terrible. Go to Chicago. Do not even think about going into practice solo out of law school. Get a job at the biggest and best firm you can.
I don't understand the knocks on lawyers. They are one of the most liberal groups around. They do a ton of volunteer work. The are very honest in practice.
Law students do tend to be duche bags but they mellow out after the work and have kids. |
Mikem
Member
Username: Mikem
Post Number: 3451
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 10:05 am: | |
For the future 1Ls on the board:
quote: For Lawyers, Boom Also Brings the Blues
A rising tide, they say, lifts all boats. And law firms are no exception: recent years have bestowed a bounty upon the legal profession as work for mergers and acquisitions, leveraged buyouts and hedge-fund deals has surged. Profits per partner are rising because firms can charge clients more per hour. Lawyers at New York firms are making record salaries even as many of them grouse that they should be making more.
Yet according to The New York Observer, morale in the legal trenches is grim. Why? Because, David Lat writes, lawyers are increasingly becoming business products, not masters of a craft.
At issue is the growing competition that has been commodifying the legal field. A profession that once saw itself as a genteel class of philosopher kings — or so practitioners claim — now finds itself pressed to adopt the same allegiance to profits that already dominates the investment banking industry.
First-year associate salaries have been rising steadily. But so has the number of billable hours that those lawyers must work, Mr. Lat writes. Meanwhile, partners on the high end must prove themselves to be increasingly productive or risk facing the dreaded “de-equitization” process, in which they retain the title of partner but lose their right to a direct cut of the firm’s profits.
As a result, morale is down, as newer entrants become less sure of why they took on six-figure debt to become lawyers in the first place, Mr. Lat writes. Morton A. Pierce, the chairman of Dewey Ballantine (a firm that, owing to competitive pressures, tried — and failed — to merge with a rival), said that new lawyers will never make hedge-fund-level compensation. “You have to ask yourself what your goals are,” he said.
Many in the field have accepted that times have changed and there is no going back. One anonymous partner told Mr. Lat: “It’s like we’ve been hit by an asteroid, and soon all the dinosaurs will be gone.”
The comments which follow the article may be of interest to you eager beavers. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1878
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 20, 2007 - 10:19 am: | |
So lawyers earn high wages and are expected to work a lot of hours? Who knew? ; ) |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1903
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 22, 2007 - 12:33 pm: | |
Sarge, 3rd World, or anyone else who can speak to this...
I was wondering if you guys would mind commenting on what you feel are the better legal specialties to go into in terms of pay and employability, other than IP...
thanks... |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 9
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 11:19 am: | |
Pay and employability are going to vary over time for an attorney based on the underlying economy. It's very difficult to say what is hot now will be hot in 2 years. It also depends on how many and who of the older attorneys retire and move on.
If you honestly want an opinion as to where you could probably get a job easiest with at least decent starting pay... check the Big 4 accounting firms. Frankly, they need accountant-lawyers moreso than the law firms need lawyers. |
Sarge
Member
Username: Sarge
Post Number: 737
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 23, 2007 - 1:16 pm: | |
quote:I was wondering if you guys would mind commenting on what you feel are the better legal specialties to go into in terms of pay and employability, other than IP...
IMHO, there is no good answer to this question, TheJ. It really depends on several variables.
Feel free to email me at spamsucks2257-at-y@h00.com if you want to discuss the matter further. |
Sparty06
Member
Username: Sparty06
Post Number: 17
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 1:56 am: | |
Does anyone have information on good quality of life firms/bad quality of life firms in the Detroit market? Also, how far deep into the class are the big firms willing to go at a school like Wayne.... top 10%, 20%, top 50%? |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2025
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 8:57 am: | |
Sparty:
There's some good discussion of QOL at Detroit firms on the Greedy Detroit board...
http://www.infirmation.com/bbo ard/clubs-view-all.tcl?topic=G reedy%20Detroit
Also, going by Wayne's current OCI grid, most firms appear to hover around top 20%, though some will a consider top 33% and some only top 5-10% |
Paulmcall
Member
Username: Paulmcall
Post Number: 384
Registered: 05-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 11:38 am: | |
There are way too many lawyers and doctors. Now whether there are too many good ones is another question. |
Meaghansdad
Member
Username: Meaghansdad
Post Number: 100
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 12:22 pm: | |
Like a few of the other posters on this thread, I'm seriously considering law school. As such I'm interested in some valid opinions on the next growing subspecialty in the legal field.
I think I would be greatly interested in IP law, but I've got a couple of rugrats, and I have no time to spend another 3-4 years to make a pittance.
Any thoughts/opinions would be greatly appreciated? |
Rooms222
Member
Username: Rooms222
Post Number: 29
Registered: 04-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, September 06, 2007 - 12:32 pm: | |
that greedy detroit is cool......like this post..says it all
>>>>>I seriously think there are more attorneys entering the market here than there are jobs. I've heard several extreme low-ball offer stories (35-40k 1st yr)from people that did pretty well at their respective schools. While I don't think there's anything a 1st year could do, or bill, to deserve $160k, on the flip side, offering someone with an advanced professional degree $40k is insulting. |
Sparty06
Member
Username: Sparty06
Post Number: 24
Registered: 03-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 12:39 am: | |
Any info on hours per week for associates at the bigger/mid size Detroit firms? This is total hours per week, not just billable hours. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 3578
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 10, 2007 - 1:37 am: | |
To many Doctors?? Actually an area of shortage, to the extent that imported Physicians (FMGs) are becoming the norm. Even then, the demand is outstripping supply.
(Message edited by ccbatson on September 10, 2007) |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 905
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 11:09 am: | |
A very interesting article. http://online.wsj.com/public/a rticle/SB119040786780835602.ht ml. Some tidbits: quote:Many students "simply cannot earn enough income after graduation to support the debt they incur," wrote Richard Matasar, dean of New York Law School, in 2005, concluding that, "We may be reaching the end of a golden era for law schools." quote:Adding to the burden for young lawyers: Tuition growth at law schools has almost tripled the rate of inflation over the past 20 years, leading to higher debt for students and making starting salaries for most graduates less manageable, especially in expensive cities. Graduates in 2006 of public and private law schools had borrowed an average of $54,509 and $83,181, up 17% and 18.6%, respectively, from the amount borrowed by 2002 graduates, according to the American Bar Association. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2201
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 11:52 am: | |
Yeah, I read that yesterday. In this state, that's especially a very big issue for students from schools like Cooley, Mercy, and MSU where tuition is extremely high and employment prospects are medicore....
While UofM has the highest tuition in the state, graduates' employment prospects are excellent
And while WSU's employment prospects are mediocre, it's tuition is subsidized by the state and is about half of the tuition at the state's private law schools...we're talking a difference of about $50k for a law degree from WSU and about $100k from those other schools... |
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