  Trying_2_stay Member Username: Trying_2_stay Post Number: 40 Registered: 08-2007 |
Detroit news article states that just half of Michigan juniors passed the state's new high school exam in English while fewer than half passed the math section, according to lackluster results released today by the Michigan Department of Education. This is all of the state not just DPS schools. Does this say suburban schools are teaching our children any better? http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070815/U PDATE/708150440 | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 638 Registered: 12-2006 |
Standardized tests don't mean much. This particular result means schools haven't been teaching students to take this particular exam. Don't worry, they'll change, so the scores will improve, but not because students are learning any more or any better. The scores will improve because teachers will teach students exactly what they need in order to do better on the test. Any time you implement standardized testing and you hold school accountable to the results of the tests, that is the behavioral change you will get, with 100% certainty. | ||
Trying_2_stay Member Username: Trying_2_stay Post Number: 41 Registered: 08-2007 |
Is that the same with the MEAP scores too? The students are just taught how to take the test to get better scores, not learn the information for future use? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1846 Registered: 06-2006 |
Horray! | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1380 Registered: 04-2006 |
I wonder how well the MEAP test matches up with the required curriculum that the state of Michigan requires students to learn. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1847 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Does this say suburban schools are teaching our children any better?" btw, the article doesn't indicate that all Michigan schools are having problems... There are probably numerous districts in the state that have stellar passage results on ths exam, and others like DPS that probably represent a disproportionately high percentage of those that failed... Edit: So to answer your question, yes. (See Mike G's post) (Message edited by thejesus on August 15, 2007) (Message edited by thejesus on August 15, 2007) | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1079 Registered: 12-2005 |
There is still a major difference between the percentages at a school district level who met or exceeded the standard. For example, the percentages of students who met or exceeded the Math Test standard statewide was 47%. However, here are the Math Test percentages for three selected districts: Detroit - 13.8% (662/4769=0.138) Flint - 16.2% (118/727=0.162) Utica - 57.5% (1343/2335=0.575)    (source data) (Message edited by Mikeg on August 15, 2007) | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 1134 Registered: 06-2006 |
Standardized test scores improve when teachers become familiar with the test. Teachers teach kids how to take that particular test. With the ACT being part of the MME, teachers will most certainly review the test, give practise tests, etc. Standardized testing usually does not require students to know much...just how to take that particular test. Most standardized tests are flawed and not a valid instrument to measure what any student has learned. Since I teach the ACT review every year at the beginning of the year, my students did better on the MME this year than most other students in the building. The average score for ACT in our building prior to this year was a 15, this year the average for my classes was a 19. Not all schools are having problems. We just test the kids far too often, which makes us lose sight of teaching them what they need to know for the real world vs what they need to know for the test. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1849 Registered: 06-2006 |
Detroittecher: What do you feel is the main cause of the discrepancy in test performance between DPS and some of the other suburban districts... For example, I was just browsing some of the other suburban school districts and most seem to have a passage rate on the math portion in the 50-60% range. By contrast, the DPS schools' passage rates are mostly in the 10-20% range... I was also looking at the social studies scores...most of the suburban districts have a passage rate in the 80-90% range, while DPS schools fall below 50% for the most part... | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 881 Registered: 01-2005 |
Detroitteacher: Haven't seen you posting much lately. Have missed your insight into things. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 639 Registered: 12-2006 |
The discrepancy between Detroit/Flint and Utica means either of the following two things, or a combination of both: 1. Utica is doing a better job in general of teaching the subjects at hand than Detroit or Flint 2. Utica is spending more time and effort preparing the students for this test than Detroit or Flint My opinion: #1 may well be true, but #2 certainly is true. We need to focus our attention on student achievement in other ways. The standardized tests are a huge distraction that benefit nobody. It's difficult to really measure student achievement, and we use standardize tests not because they are good measurements (which they are not) but because they are easy to take measurements. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 1136 Registered: 06-2006 |
As for the discrepancy in scores...I'd have to say the old standard test prep (practise, getting decent sleep, breakfast) is lacking. Many DPS students do not take these tests seriously, MANY MORE are behind from the get go (elementary school). MANY MANY MORE just have horrible teachers or no teacher at all (long term subs who aren't subbing in their area of expertise). There are so many factors...I don't know why my kids do better than most of the other kids in the bldg. It could be that I do test prep for about 10 minutes every day (general test prep), I do a unit on ACT material, we go through the writing process extensively from the beginning of the year throughout, we do test vocab (which could also be a major factor in the discrepancy). Many kids just don't know what the question is asking because of vocab. DPS has its own independent tests it gives the kids. There are far too many of these and many DPS kids get burned out prior to the state tests. Many roll their eyes and just mark any old answer because they are tired of taking these tests. Who can blame them? DPS gives HS kids 4 tests (each year), in addition to the state test. I really think reading has much to do with the discrepancy. One must be able to comprehend what one reads in order to pass the test and many DPS kids have issues with comprehension (because they are too busy decoding the words). Early reading programs (prior to kindergarten) would be beneficial to the kids. They need to start reading at home, early on. I also find that the kids who do the best have strong parental support and are in class daily. Our school has above average social studies scores for DPS. Our ELA scores leave much to be desired. Math is just a wash for us. Science is getting better. Lack of organization for the test on the part of DPS has much to do with how well the kids do. We received the wrong tests for the wrong kids this past year. Our test coordinator didn't figure that out until 2 days before the test (and only because one of us pointed it out). Test site conditions are less than stellar (we were interrupted so many times with the PA system it was unreal), it was HOT (no air and no water was allowed), kids were not allowed to use calculators (although it was allowed by the state), and proctors for the test were talking, on cell phones, eating, etc. All of this is distracting to the kids taking the test. DPS also has a large population of students in Special Ed who should be taking the MI-ACCESS test but because of the 1% rule, had to take the MME. Only 1% of the student population is allowed to take the MI-ACCESS. If more than that take it, the additional scores are counted as zero (which leads to lower numbers). **These are my thoughts and certainly don't represent the thoughts of Detroit Public Schools. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3745 Registered: 10-2004 |
Just why are teaching the students better in the subject areas they need to know PLUS teaching them to learn the subject matter in various standardized test considered to be mutually exclusive? Are running backs on the school football teams encouraged to rush in their line of play but not be expected to catch passes, too? Are doing both considered to be too hard or impossible to do? And another thing... If some 50% of those juniors could not pass various tests, how come 94% of them were considered eligible for the state scholarship funds. Aren't scholarships supposed to be based more on academics instead of mere attendance or test participation? And an ACT of 19 (the mean score of this crop of scholars) would hardly get them into a community college that is low on expectations of their applicants. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 1137 Registered: 06-2006 |
LY: State scholarship funds are mostly needs based. Many students retake the tests and score better the 2nd time around (thus qualifying them for the scholarships). Where did you get the 94%? I haven't seen that figure. Please provide a link to a reliable source for this! Curriculum is NOT aligned with the test or state standards. Not much we can do about that. We have to sneak stuff in when we can. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3746 Registered: 10-2004 |
DT: The more than 94%... statement was contained in the article linked by the OP. A little reading is all what is needed for that. It's located more than halfway through the article... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1381 Registered: 04-2006 |
>Curriculum is NOT aligned with the test or state standards. Not much we can do about that. Which pretty much would explain why half the state flunked the MEAP... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3747 Registered: 10-2004 |
The MEAPs differ from the ACT or the SAT. The latter two are normed tests, whereas the MEAPs were originally designed to be achievement tests--with expected minima. However, the MEAPs are being continually dumbed down (or planned to be eliminated) due to political pressure, especially from the educationists who seemingly cannot educate the kids (for whatever reasons...). | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 640 Registered: 12-2006 |
"Educationists"? That's a new one. Teaching the subject matter plus teaching the standardized test taking skills eats into the finite amount of time given to the school day, plus there is all this nonacademic nonsense schools are required to do nowadays that was the parents' concern when LY and I went to school. LY, the community colleges in Michigan are open admission. You don't need any test score at all. I teach teachers, that's one part of my gig, and I can tell you the quality varies wildly. Parental involvement is a key for students to succeed in an environment where some teachers are good and some are awful (which is to say, any school). This, unfortunately, is lacking within DPS. That's not my opinion; that is based on reports from the teachers in my classes. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3748 Registered: 10-2004 |
Educationist is not a new term, but it's probably not in everyone's vernacular or lexicon. (Message edited by Livernoisyard on August 15, 2007) | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1537 Registered: 11-2003 |
LY is correct, educationist is a term used quite often in books on educational theory, including many textbooks. It is mostly used when citing research on educational theories. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 1138 Registered: 06-2006 |
LY: If you had ANY clue regarding Michigan schools, you'd know that the MEAP is no longer a test for HS students. The MME is now the norm and it includes the ACT. What link do you have to education in Michigan? Doens't seem like much, other than what you read. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3749 Registered: 10-2004 |
It's too bad that an achievement test (the former high-school MEAP) was replaced with a normed test. By definition, normed tests have no meaningful passing score,but instead reflect that particular test-taker pool--whether they be competent or otherwise. The scores are used for comparison (e.g., the state average, etc.). And I knew about that particular MEAP being canned, and I alluded to the reasons why. Still, the other grades' (4-8) MEAPs are still in use--or at least until they too are scrubbed and replaced with simpler tests. As to such SAT and ACT tests: Both Scott and I know that the raw scores for those peaked around 1960--1962 for the SAT. Those raw scores (which are hard to come by) have come way downhill since and aren't even close to their 1960 levels. In fact, the test scores of the entire Baby boom generation and those later were far lower than those of the previous--the Quiet--generation. (Message edited by Livernoisyard on August 15, 2007) | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 643 Registered: 12-2006 |
LY is right. One of the side effects of all this is that many colleges and universities have devoted a lot of effort to providing remedial high school level courses. For the student, what this means is if you come to college not prepared (which very many do), you are going to pay college tuition for high school level classes for which you do not receive college credit. This is a booming business, but awful. | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 872 Registered: 10-2006 |
My neighbor pulled her child out of Berkley schools because she felt she wasn't being taught anything and there were "rowdiness" problems. However, certain people on this forum want to make it seem like only blacks are stupid which is why they focus on DPS (and the City, and Kwame, and and and and.....) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1382 Registered: 04-2006 |
As to such SAT and ACT tests: Both Scott and I know that the raw scores for those peaked around 1960--1962 for the SAT. So, I guess the next question is how has the tested curriculum changed since the early 1960s? Then how have the demographics changed of test takers? I'm pretty sure there are a lot more people taking the test now than back then, which would almost automatically lead to a lower average... | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 836 Registered: 09-2005 |
Math is one subject where testing can be useful because it is so black and white. I didn't like math in junior high because there were a lot of story problems which required me to memorize a lot of formulas or at least it seemed like a lot of formulas like speed x time = distance and it's two corollaries. Algebra, on the other hand, gave me some rules so I could devise my own corollaries. I never fell in love with math, but I could do it. My daughter, on the other hand, can't seem to do math or maybe she just doesn't want to be bothered to learn the multiplication tables and the steps for long division. She's intelligent, but she is not interested in anything that is not instantly clear to her. She keeps saying that she doesn't understand and I keep telling her that math doesn't have to be a question of understanding. You just follow the rules and juggle the numbers. I have to say that a semester of trig in high school did put my powers of memorization to the test. I wish the teacher had given us some idea what all those equations, like sin over cosine = whatever, were good for. Maybe if he had said that trig was the beginning of rocket science, I would have been more interested in it. As it was, it just seemed like a lot of nonsense to learn. Small calculators now relieve kids of having to learn that stuff. Consequently, I got good grades in math and science, but never took a math class in college. I can still do high school level algebra and geometry and have even learned a few more math skills from some Saxon books I bought. I am very interested in science, but I steer away from the math aspect because I never took calculus. So I guess what I am saying is that teaching math presents a special challenge especially since the people who tend to become math teachers love it and don't understand why others struggle with it. When I substitute I tell kids that knowing math is like an intelligence test. It lets employers know what you are capable of learning. If you can learn advanced algebra or trig, you can probably be trained to learn what most businesses need. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 556 Registered: 10-2003 |
The generation before the Boom is known as the Silent gen, not the Quiet (c.f. Strauss & Howe, 1997). The difference between 40-50 years ago and now was that there were many viable career paths for students who were better suited to technical education. Having a good, middle-class life did not require a bachelor's degree in those days because we had not yet eroded our agricultural and manufacturing base. When we made the choice to force all students into compulsory education, and to move vocational education out of the high schools and into postsecondary "community colleges", we did not have a lot of foresight. Poor kids aren't stupid. They know that their education and the culture is NOT preparing them for 21st century jobs. Suggested reading for the experts around here: read the recent report from the National Center on Education and the Economy: "Tough Choices or Tough Times: The Report of the New Commission on the Skills of the American Workforce" (2007). The commission is a blue-ribbon, bipartisan group of leaders in business, education, and politics. I have long posited that suburban parents around the nation comfort themselves by looking *down* at the racial achievement gap, when those of us in comparative education are looking with horror at the international achievement gap. I learned this for certain when I left Cass Tech in Detroit and started teaching in the Ann Arbor schools. I was expecting to teach kids who were critically literate and hungry for success; instead, I taught kids who were complacent and spoiled. Thomas Friedman's *The World is Flat* points out that our top students at our top schools are eclipsed by millions of top students in countries where there is a very real hunger to be #1. (Another scary vid is on YouTube in 2 parts: "Shift Happens.) Very good topic. Just know that it isn't just Michigan schools that are failing. It is United States schools that are failing, en masse, and yet middle America refuses to wake up. As long as we get to put a magnifying glass to the bottom 25% of the population to make ourselves feel better, we don't have to worry about the coming shift in hegemony. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3750 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Perhaps, but only for those sufficiently pedantic to believe (err. insist) that the same thing cannot have differing nomenclature. quiet gen quote: And one can find other sources describing the Quiet Generation on such sites as JSTOR, etc. There's no shortage of them. | ||
Trying_2_stay Member Username: Trying_2_stay Post Number: 42 Registered: 08-2007 |
I just posted the thread because everyone is always putting Detroit students down when they aren't the only ones failing tests and dropping out. It's just the emphasis and media coverage is always on Detroit students. I agree with English all of America is failing our students. I still believe that parents can make their children the best students possible by taking an interest in what they are learning, what they have problems with and get them the help needed. My daughter was like Themax's daughter but after finding the Math Corp program at Wayne State in 8th grade she was doing Calculus because they made learning fun and easy. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3751 Registered: 10-2004 |
There could be several factors resulting in a general decline in US public and private education. TV and other distractions--hours spent daily on cell phones, text messaging, video games, etc., to name the most obvious. Today's teacher candidates now predominately come from the bottom quartile of those in college. That's no secret. ETS and the College Board has been warning about this for decades. Little parental involvement, coupled with destructive peer pressure from kids, is probably the most serious problem in education, err. schooling. Also, they're the easiest to rectify because virtually no added funding is involved. But because of the extreme difficulty in turning around decades of bad habits, these problems are not expected to go away anytime soon. Martin Gross's popular book from the 1990s is a good and cheap read about this: The Conspiracy of Ignorance: The Failure of American Public Schools. It could be picked up used for only a buck or two. |
