  Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2566 Registered: 07-2004 |
Is going down. I am surprised that it as not being bragged about here.However currently(right now) on ch 7 are the chief, u.s. atty and the detroit rep of the atf talking about an unprecedented cooperative effort that has reduced gun crime by 43% in parts of nw detroit.That is a signifcant reduction.It was in the print media a while ago_ It should be announced loudly and conspicuously. Because so many of you have grown weary of my constant pointing to nyc and how crime reduction transformed that city I hope you all will realize that direct law enforcement is what reduces crime_ nothing else works. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6357 Registered: 02-2004 |
YAY!!! Looks like the BROTHERS KILLING BROTHERS event is really slow down thanks to community involvent. But violent crime in Detroit will not vanish any time soom. The crime wave in Detroit is like a roller coaster ride. Once it goes up it would come down. | ||
Mike Member Username: Mike Post Number: 970 Registered: 11-2003 |
CL, i was just watching the same thing. but i was also thinking that there is another piece to the crime problem, oppurtunity, give citizens a chance at "making it" without have to strive to be a thug then crime will go down. when your forced with sports, music, crime, school. crime is the easist way out. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1867 Registered: 06-2006 |
Good news...I wonder how they are doing it... Anyone have stats for this year compared to other years? | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 95 Registered: 08-2007 |
Philly leads big cities in murder rates; in NY crime is up 10%. There are so many variables to look at- poverty rate being near the top. http://www.philly.com/philly/n ews/homepage/20070605_Phila__l eads_big_cities_in_murder_rate .html | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1399 Registered: 04-2006 |
Actually, this was spoken about on here but didn't generate a lot of buzz. I believe they are targeting gangs. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 1934 Registered: 10-2003 |
I don't know if murder is what makes people not live in Detroit. Break-ins and other non-violent crimes really make it a hassle, and are much more prevalent. Murders can give it a bad name, but vandalism, burglaries, etc. make day to day life obnoxious and not worth it for some. | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 281 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Good news...I wonder how they are doing it..." They're all leaving for more lucrative areas.. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1473 Registered: 10-2006 |
The press: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/110899.html?1187506715 | ||
Ohudson Member Username: Ohudson Post Number: 259 Registered: 09-2004 |
Philly leads in big cities of over 1 million. Detroit didn't make the list because it's under 1 mil. But if you read thru the article Philly is 4th in cities above 500,000, behind Detroit, B-more and D.C.. Detroit is doing better, but I don't think the article Oakmangirl referenced goes with the feel good theme of this thread. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1869 Registered: 06-2006 |
"but i was also thinking that there is another piece to the crime problem, oppurtunity, give citizens a chance at "making it" without have to strive to be a thug then crime will go down. when your forced with sports, music, crime, school. crime is the easist way out." We have a system where a high school diploma is a virtual guarantee of a college acceptance for most inner-city youths and a college degree is a virtual guarantee of a decent paying job... what more do you need? | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1270 Registered: 07-2004 |
Thejesus, your slip is showing ... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1401 Registered: 04-2006 |
Thejesus, your slip is showing ... Please don't give him a soap box for his stupid comments. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2567 Registered: 07-2004 |
I agree 100% thejesus.Poverty rates don't have shit to do with crime. Crime is done by mostly immature compulsive shitheads that want what they want right now.It is a tired ass myth that people have altruistic intentions as they are breaking into some old ladies house or stealing something out of a car_ when the hell can we put that shit to rest? John Lodge you make good points.Hopefully as violent crime goes down other crime will be focused on. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1871 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Please don't give him a soap box for his stupid comments." Actually, I asked a question, one that neither you nor Detroitnerd will take a shot at answering...nor would I expect you to. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1271 Registered: 07-2004 |
Actually, it's called "begging the question," not asking it. But, standards of rhetoric being what they are, you are excused. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1873 Registered: 06-2006 |
"But, standards of rhetoric being what they are, you are excused." Thank you. Now answer the question, light weight. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1272 Registered: 07-2004 |
Hahaha. OK, li'l guy. Here's the lesson. This is called "begging the question." "We have a system where a high school diploma is a virtual guarantee of a college acceptance for most inner-city youths and a college degree is a virtual guarantee of a decent paying job..." What does "begging the question" mean? That means that you have behaved as though these matters are all settled. You are using sloppy rhetoric to avoid defending your points. Here are the questions you have "begged." Is a diploma virtual guarantee of college acceptance? A college degree is a virtual guarantee of a high-paying job? These are open to debate. What you've done, however, is treated those matters as if they are settled. ("Begging the question.") But, those matters are not settled. And, even if they were, there are other points of logic to be addressed. (e.g., "Can all Americans afford a college education?") But, in your haste to say they ARE settled, you've marched us down the garden path to this question, which is patently rhetorical. Are you saying it isn't? "what more do you need?" I think it's hilarious that you have used bad rhetoric to set up a question that is rhetorical, yet you insist it isn't. Thus endeth today's lesson. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1875 Registered: 06-2006 |
Yep. I didn't think so. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1273 Registered: 07-2004 |
What? You? Not thinking? I don't believe it... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1877 Registered: 06-2006 |
Ladies and gentleman, I give you Detroitnerd... I rest my case... | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 96 Registered: 08-2007 |
Stop it you two! I'd love to be more optimistic but that 43% stat shared on TV centers on only parts of Detroit and is a "spin"; that number seems huge until you realize that they're referring to a small sample group. The REAL numbers published by the FBI are sobering. According to their stats, the only decreases are in population and aggravated assault; every other category has seen increases. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/06preli m/t4il_mo.htm The fact is, no matter what we may perceive as city supporters, others still see Detroit as a major crime capital. When I talk to others about moving back to the city, while hardly a scientific study, they all say crime is the #1 deterrent. That 43% is a start, but the police need to extrapolate- what's going right in that area and how can it benefit the entire city? When I see those FBI numbers go down, I'll be happy for our city. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 9855 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oakman - The preliminary FBI stats are from 2006. Typically they are released in October/November. The 43% reduction is 2007 compared to 2006. There is no question that the numbers are bad no matter what but decreases are certainly better than increases or no change. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 97 Registered: 08-2007 |
It seems a strong start, Jt1. Let's hope the numbers continue to decrease across the city this year. From PRNewswire: "Since Operation TIDE's inception in Detroit's Northwestern District in May 2006, homicides have decreased by 43% and non-fatal shootings have decreased by 26%. As of May 31, 2007, there have been 17 homicides in Northwestern Detroit, compared to 30 for the same period in 2006; and 87 non-fatal shootings compared to 118 for the same period in 2006. Comparatively, there was an 8% reduction in homicides and a 15% reduction in non-fatal shootings for the rest of Detroit during the same period." | ||
Rockcity2windycity Member Username: Rockcity2windycity Post Number: 222 Registered: 11-2005 |
Johnlodge i couldn't agree with you more. Most people are murdered by someone they know. But coming outside in the morning on your way to work and finding your tire slashed or coming home from work finding your window busted makes u say i cant take this shit and move. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1478 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Poverty rates don't have shit to do with crime." WHAT!?!?! It is clearly the case that poorer areas have more crime. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1518 Registered: 10-2006 |
"As poverty concentrates in poor central city neighborhoods and older suburbs, crime grows dramatically...In the poorest neighborhoods, violent crime rates were ten times higher than the metro average and thirty times the suburban average...When neighborhood concentrations of poverty passed a critical mass, violent crimes increased exponentially." Myron Orfield on pages 3-4 in "Metropolitics: A Regional Agenda for Community and Stability" | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 349 Registered: 05-2004 |
There may be fewer teenagers in the city than before. They seem to be the ones who commit most of the crime. With so many folks leaving the city, there just may be fewer criminals left. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1563 Registered: 10-2006 |
"With so many folks leaving the city, there just may be fewer criminals left." Interesting theory which may be the cause of or contributing to the declines in crime. Problem is is it seems that the percentage of population decreasing is necessarily greater now than at any other point. So where does that leave your theory? | ||
Craggy Member Username: Craggy Post Number: 276 Registered: 10-2003 |
Hey Paul... Question for you. As someone with significant ties to Detroit, what's your thought on crime here in Charlotte? My final story before I head back to Detroit is looking at people's PERCEPTION of the crime level in Charlotte. Its kind of funny...people here seem to think their own neighborhood is safe, but if they go into the wrong neighborhood, they will be a victim of violent crime. We talked to about fifty random people about it, and the answers were strikingly similar across the board, regardless of the race or perceived financial status of the people. As the police chief (Stephens) told me... "your actual chances of being a victim of violent crime are quite low...unless you can't manage relations with your family and friends; hang out in bars late at night; or are yourself involved in criminal activity...then, your chances are pretty darn good." | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 307 Registered: 02-2007 |
CP - did you (^^)observe that the pace of depopulation is accelerating? If so, then you have offered the evidence necessary to account the gross decline in reported crimes. And if PC is correct about the most crime-prone element leaving in disproportionate numbers, then the two of you have explained the drop. More as a crack than a legitimate observation I question the degree to which the "don't snitch" culture might be exerting downward pressure on the number of reported crimes. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1564 Registered: 10-2006 |
Craggy: "Its kind of funny...people here [in Charlotte] seem to think their own neighborhood is safe, but if they go into the wrong neighborhood, they will be a victim of violent crime." It seems to me that this is the perception of any people anywhere living in any metro area. Seems that every metro has its 'good' areas and 'bad' areas and those may be in fact quite different depending on one's income level. I live near The Plaza and 36th which is definitely not the best neighborhood in the view of the richest residents in Charlotte. In fact I got 'picked on' by people at work for choosing that neighborhood, but to someone with my just-out-of-college income level, it comes across as a halfway decent neighborhood that is on the edge of gentrification. In my perception, Charlotte has very few neighborhoods that would actually be a bad choice with all of the gentrification going on and such a strong rise in home values--I can't wait to stop renting and start 'investing.' Craig: To quote the beginning of this thread: https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/5/111082.html?1188558977 "Crime in Detroit Is going down. I am surprised that it as not being bragged about here.However currently(right now) on ch 7 are the chief, u.s. atty and the detroit rep of the atf talking about an unprecedented cooperative effort that has reduced gun crime by 43% in parts of nw detroit.That is a signifcant reduction.It was in the print media a while ago_ It should be announced loudly and conspicuously." 43% decrease in crime is no simple crack! Thing is that we all know that this same area of Detroit has not lost 43% of its population as well! So I would argue that the population is not decreasing nearly at the same percentage rate as the crime and therefore it hardly continues to be an explanation for the much larger decreases in crime. | ||
Craggy Member Username: Craggy Post Number: 277 Registered: 10-2003 |
Paul... now may be a good time...the national price decreases are finally starting to show here in Charlotte. Houses I was looking at a year ago that were selling for 275K are now going for around 245K. I have a good friend from work who lives in Commonweatlh-Morningside. That neighborhood is on the verge of exploding, but bargains can still be found. She loves it there, and its not too far from where you are now. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1511 Registered: 04-2006 |
Time to interject a quick math lesson. If you have a population and a steady number of actual murders from year to year, if the population drops over two years, the murder rate will increase, even if the number of murders did not increase. See example below: Hypothetical population in 2005: 1,000,000 Hypothetical number of murders in 2005: 100 % of population murdered: 0.0001%; in other words, 10 murders for every 100,000 persons Hypothetical population in 2006: 800,000 Hypothetical number of murders in 2005: 100 % of population murdered: 0.000125%, or 12.5 murders for every 100,000 persons The only thing that changed was some people moved away... for whatever reason. Maybe the economy turned sour, maybe a hurricane flooded out a neighborhood, or maybe a section of the town was annexed by another. Who knows? The takeaway point is that lower population does not equal automatic lower crime rate, and in fact usually means higher crime rate if all else remains the same. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 1982 Registered: 06-2006 |
Your hypos is not true if those actually committing the murders represent a disproportionately high number of the ones moving away...in that situation, a decrease in population could result in a decrease in the crime rate...your hypo assumes that the ones moving away do not commit murders... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1513 Registered: 04-2006 |
That's why it's hypothetical. It's also unlikely that the offending group would be the ones moving away in high numbers... ETA: Furthermore, the example was to highlight that there were the same number of murders both years, but the crime rate went up because the population dropped. (Message edited by iheartthed on August 31, 2007) | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1569 Registered: 10-2006 |
So, if Detroit's crime rate is going down, and people aren't moving in, then what is causing it to go down Iheartthed? http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070811/M ETRO/708110392&theme=Metro-Cri me | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1516 Registered: 04-2006 |
So, if Detroit's crime rate is going down, and people aren't moving in, then what is causing it to go down Iheartthed? Well, that's also part of my point too. The crime rate could be going down because of new methods of addressing problem areas... Or maybe they could have changed the way they report it (as other cities have done)? I really don't know for sure. But I think the criminals simply moving away is the most unlikely of reasons for the drop. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 367 Registered: 05-2004 |
You also have to wonder how many people don't even bother to report certain crimes. Unless there's a dead body or gunfire constantly going on, the cops don't show up anytime soon (if at all). | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1585 Registered: 10-2006 |
"You also have to wonder how many people don't even bother to report certain crimes. Unless there's a dead body or gunfire constantly going on, the cops don't show up anytime soon (if at all)." Well, one can always file a report at any police station at any time, so that could only be a matter of the victim being lazy. The police should NOT have to come to the scene of every incident. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 68 Registered: 07-2007 |
poverty doesn't kill people, stupid people with guns do. | ||
Crumbled_pavement Member Username: Crumbled_pavement Post Number: 10 Registered: 08-2007 |
"poverty doesn't kill people, stupid people with guns do." And what is the education level of affluent people compared to that of those living in poverty? | ||
Jhartmich Member Username: Jhartmich Post Number: 71 Registered: 04-2006 |
Maybe PART of the reason the crime rate is going down is because the criminals are going farther and farther out into the suburbs. One example that comes to mind was the series of bank robberies in Port Huron last year. The thieves stole cars in Detroit, drove to Port Huron, robbed several different banks, and then ditched the car. They were finally caught. I just spoke with a lieutenant cop friend in Birmingham about this; he estimated that 60% of the criminals they catch trace back to Detroit. No one really knows why the crime is declining. I am sure there are many reasons? It is what it is. I hope the decline continues in Detroit. We'll see what happens. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1591 Registered: 10-2006 |
Certainly should raise concern for the inner-ring suburbs that are less capable to deal with inner city crimes than the City of Detroit! | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2599 Registered: 07-2004 |
I believe the reason crime may be going down is the result of direct police work. I remember when crime in NYC went way down.Those not wanting to credit Guliani or the NYPD came up with every convoluted abstract bullshit reason why crime was down_ maybe the simplest answer is the likely answer_ The police and other agencies are responsible. As for suburbs being less capable in dealing with crime I frankly am confused by such a callow statement. Have you checked the suburbs rate of solving crimes, response to 911 calls and sentencing of defendants? Perhaps you meant the suburbs are less "capable" of putting up with crime. This is easily seen in the amount of crime (way lower) in the suburbs compared to Detroit. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1597 Registered: 10-2006 |
"the inner suburbs are less 'capable' of dealing with crime" is what I meant to say if that wasn't clear. I am not saying that currently inner suburbs are less safe or more crime riden than Detroit, but that they lack many of the larger resources that big cities get (e.g. funding from the Feds). It will be interesting to see what happens to the Oak Parks and Hazel Parks of the metro area in the next decade. Schools will likely be the first indication of problems... | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2601 Registered: 07-2004 |
How are they less capable of dealing with crime? That statement makes no sense. The reason crime is lower in suburbs is precisely because they are fairly quick and effective in dealing with crime. That imo is a working definition of capable. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1603 Registered: 10-2006 |
Again, they don't have as many resources as large cities such as Detroit. Also, I am not referencing Novi, Sterling Heights, or middle and outer ring suburbs, just the small inner ones border Detroit and stating that it will be interesting to see how they deal with the problems of Detroit within thier jurisdictions over the next decade or so. | ||
Arrogancy Member Username: Arrogancy Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2007 |
As was said in this thread, murder isn't what's keeping people out of Detroit as much as theft. Once people broke into my garage and stole something for the 6th time in a "good" part of the city, I said "screw it" and left. Nobody wants to deal with the crap. Murder is normally between people who know each other, so that's not as big off an issue with most people. | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 387 Registered: 05-2004 |
Amen, brother. | ||
Lombaowski Member Username: Lombaowski Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2004 |
Arrogancy hit the nail on the head. I honestly would not be worried about getting killed living in Detroit as I would be with everything I own getting carried away while I was gone for three days and then no one seeing anything. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1623 Registered: 10-2006 |
Yeah; all true. I am half tempted to move back to safe Detroit from unsafe Charlotte NC, after getting stuck up in front of home down here. Confusing thing is, during all my years in the D, I never once even saw a gun. I move down to 'safer' Charlotte, and in less than a year I get stuck up--go figure. That puts a dent in most people's comments about Detroit. | ||
Hybridy Member Username: Hybridy Post Number: 144 Registered: 08-2006 |
shit paul you're poor to begin with-what do want with you i guess we all do dumb shit when we need to hit the crack pipe | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 796 Registered: 08-2005 |
quote: No...it doesn't. Do you know why? Because your personal experiences do not reflect on the total population of Detroit. Clearly, things are not alright in this city because THOUSANDS of Detroiters are voting with their feet each year. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 892 Registered: 11-2005 |
<i>Looks like the BROTHERS KILLING BROTHERS event is really slow down thanks to community involvent. <i> Besides being grammatically impossible to read, this sentiment is impossible to NOT criticize. Such a sheltered existence. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 97 Registered: 07-2007 |
crime up or down is not really the issue, it's more of a media issue. the real issue is how the citizens, (ie: police, judicial, people, etc.) deal with it. As of yet, i'm not real impressed. mostly the people part. This is the main reason for people leaving. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1577 Registered: 04-2006 |
No...it doesn't. Do you know why? Because your personal experiences do not reflect on the total population of Detroit. Clearly, things are not alright in this city because THOUSANDS of Detroiters are voting with their feet each year. But they were also doing that when things were "good", no? |
