 
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1331
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 3:51 pm: |    |
What does it matter if we're in good company? |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3097
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 3:57 pm: | |
If you're happy being in good company with thriving urban moonscapes like Cleveland and Columbus, then sprawl on.
Continuation of this pattern of development, though, doesn't exactly speak to innovation or creativity. It shows that the region is trapped in the 1950s mindset, is wasteful, and is oblivious to anything regarding urbanity or the decline of oil production.
But won't it be cool to hear piped-in banjo music while you shop? |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1332
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:09 pm: | |
Let me rephrase.
If the problem suuuuuuuuuuuucks, what does it matter if we're not alone in it? |
Fareastsider
Member
Username: Fareastsider
Post Number: 562
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:14 pm: | |
I also hate the term progress to describe things like the new Meijer on 26 mile like the guy here does who is loosing his springfed lake to the expanding Detroit Water system...
http://www.macombdaily.com/sto ries/082707/loc_20070827003.sh tml |
Brightonirish
Member
Username: Brightonirish
Post Number: 1
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:14 pm: | |
Well, it maybe a "boom" for the big box stores, hopefully they can sustain themselves. However, for the small boutique businesses Southeast Michigan is like walking onto death row.
I just closed a niche gift shop after 12 years in a burb only 25 miles out of Detroit's city center.
We watched our store lose over 32% of our business over the last year and a half. We couldn't make our rent. (Which by the way was completely out rageous) The small "mall" (actually an old building that was turned into a boutique mall) that I was annexed to lost all but 6 out of 15 total retail rentals. Most of the business owners that I have gotten to know over the last 12 years are suffering as well. The area they are in extends from Sterling Heights to Downriver.
As far as Detroit proper, we looked at a location, when we out grew our first location 10 years ago, that would have been lovely for us. Great size, completely updated, etc. However, after a poll of our customers it was obvious that they "wouldn't go into Detroit" for a variety of reasons, the most common was they didn't feel it was safe.
At any rate, I don't hold any large corporate announcements that claim retail etc., is looking up. They have very deep pockets, and can afford to ride out economic downturns. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3099
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:15 pm: | |
quote:Let me rephrase.
If the problem suuuuuuuuuuuucks, what does it matter if we're not alone in it?
You raise a good point. But like I said, it seems to me that the urban core of Detroit is more severely under-retailed than in other (smaller and less wealthier) areas. Given the number of dying malls in the first-ring suburbs, this isn't a pretty picture--it's just a shift in investment from the inner ring to the outer ring.
And while other cities are trying to bring more retail into their downtowns and neighborhoods (even if Cleveland did build a POS strip mall with Wal Mart, it's still retail), Detroit is content to let it's downtown be little more than a party zone for suburbanites. It's just not sustainable. SE Michigan is economically fragile as it is; I don't know why you would intentionally create a more vulnerable situation. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 109
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:17 pm: | |
Assuming the economy remains crappy, it's quite possible Partridge Creek will be the nail in the coffin for Eastland and Macomb malls, and Twelve Oaks will be the nail in the coffin for Oakland and Northland malls.
These four malls are obviously struggling, and it won't take much to turn them to Dead Malls. Oakland might survive intact but not the rest. |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1333
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:21 pm: | |
Maybe you still don't understand me, Dan. These concerns are dismissed by Gistok, who says, this problem exists everywhere. Are we to believe that the problem is no big deal, since it exists "everywhere?"
In short, my question is more rhetorical: Just because something is a national tendency, does that mean we must embrace it? |
Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried
Post Number: 1050
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:23 pm: | |
Dan, we'd probably give you much more respect if you didn't always state your opinion as if it were fact, weren't so arrogant, and weren't so damn condescending.
------------------------------ ---------
I never said it was a Detroit-only problem. It's just that Detroit perfected this destructive art, and continues to suffer the most from such short-sighted development.
------------------------------ ------------------
So old wise one, please tell us what we should do. Do you think the leadership here doesn't see the big picture and understand that changes need to be made? There has never been more discussion regarding regional cooperation, sharing services, promoting inner ring development, farmland/open space preservation, and probably most importantly mass transit, etc, etc... Does that mean that we should just forget about the communities that have been built over the last 30 yrs? Should these people have to drive 20 miles to shop for luxury goods? There are about 300k people within 5 miles of this location, and about 700k within 10 miles. This is nothing like the malls being built on the greenfields in that past.
Sorry, but it's not realistic to demand that the entire world be a sustainable wet dream. Unfortunately we do not have a viable mass transit system in place, yet, so that results in this development being built to serve people in an area where there is demand for it. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1469
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:26 pm: | |
>Brightonirish
Would you consider going into the city now? What type of store did you own? If there's any place where you'd be insulated from the competition of a big box store, it'd be in the city proper now... |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1334
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:31 pm: | |
Gosh, Jfried, what optimism. You sound like you may even be convinced that the suburban lifestyle could somehow be "sustainable".
You ask, "Does that mean that we should just forget about the communities that have been built over the last 30 yrs?"
Why not? The banks are paid off by then. And, shortly after, the residents give up on them too.
You ask, "Should these people have to drive 20 miles to shop for luxury goods?"
Only for the first few years they live in the "country."
You say, "There are about 300k people within 5 miles of this location, and about 700k within 10 miles. This is nothing like the malls being built on the greenfields in that past."
No, it's like a mall being built on a semi-green field in the present.
I think your real reasons for your stance are concealed in your final sentence. You want to live the way you want to live, no ifs, ands or buts. The only thing is, Jfried, we ALL pay a price for YOUR choices, because the government seems geared to using our resources to finance your lifestyle. |
Jjw
Member
Username: Jjw
Post Number: 432
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:31 pm: | |
"Do you think the leadership here doesn't see the big picture and understand that changes need to be made?"
---The short answer: yes. |
Crawford
Member
Username: Crawford
Post Number: 110
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:34 pm: | |
Actually, DC and other cities have this same problem, though in Detroit it's worse because the economy sucks and the population is stagnant. In DC, Landover Mall is a classic dead mall. Others are the crappy one in downtown Silver Spring, Iverson Mall, Forest Village Park Mall and PG Plaza. The opening of Bowie Town Center really hurt PG County retail.
Other malls that have been hurt from competition are Georgetown Park, Mazza Galeria, Chevy Chase Pavillion, the Shops at National Place and Wheaton Mall. Granted, none of these malls are dead, but they are hurting relative to the Tysons Corners of the world. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3100
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:35 pm: | |
Detroitnerd--gotcha!
quote:Do you think the leadership here doesn't see the big picture and understand that changes need to be made?
Yes and Yes.
quote:Does that mean that we should just forget about the communities that have been built over the last 30 yrs?
When existing retail options in the regional core die because of oversaturation, this is exactly what you're doing.
quote:Should these people have to drive 20 miles to shop for luxury goods?
Should people in Detroit have to drive 20 miles for groceries or a hardware store?
These Faux Riche chose to live in the sticks. Fuck 'em. What about the people who have lived in that area for generations, when it was still rural? Do they get a say in what gets built in their area?
It's not necessary to pave EVERY GOD DAMNED ACRE just to make it nice and easy for Paris Hilton wannabes to buy a Prada bag.
quote:Sorry, but it's not realistic to demand that the entire world be a sustainable wet dream.
Well, it was reality prior to 1945, for about 6000 years of civilization. That's a hell of a wet dream, ain't it?
Anyone wanna guess who's picking up the infrastructure costs for these new POS malls? |
Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried
Post Number: 1051
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:40 pm: | |
Crawford, I'm not as familiar with Eastland, but Macomb Mall is not stuggling, it is adapting. The tenents in the mall have shifted to a more urban focus. Many Detroiters utilize the Gratiot Corridor for the majority of their shopping from Eastpointe, to the Macomb Mall area in Roseville, up to the Star Theater in Clinton Township. I mentioned above that Macomb Mall has an excellent occupancy rate and one of the best lease rates vs. carrying costs in the country.
Dan your ignorance is showing again. The City of Detroit, the DEGC to be more specific, has busted it's ass to get more retail in the city center. They have had a greater presence than any other city at the International Council of Shopping Centers events for years. The retailers are the ones who still do not have the confidence in the city's market. This is starting to change with the recent announcements of the gourmet grocer coming to brush park, and the retail springing up around campus maritus, and the wsu campus. Much of this is the result of the city's efforts, and ability to encourage retailer to look deeper than their traditional market indicators. This trend will gain even more momentum as more people move the the cbd.
This mall, specifically, in Macomb County, has very little to do with the market in the city proper. Even if Hudson, Federals, the Gap, or any other national brands were still in the city, there would still be demand for this in the burbs. For you to make this a city/suburb, white/black thing is crap. |
Jjw
Member
Username: Jjw
Post Number: 433
Registered: 10-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:42 pm: | |
Ah, but Crawford, you forget one very important detail: DC has many viable options to shop within the city limits; which Detroit does not have. All places have sprawl; there is no denying that. I think Dan is correct in saying that this new mall will only hurt older commercial business and will also hurt Detroit's chances of getting more retail. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3101
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 4:45 pm: | |
^^^It certainly ain't gonna help!
(I didn't respond to Crawford because I didn't want to sidetrack the thread.)
quote:This mall, specifically, in Macomb County, has very little to do with the market in the city proper. Even if Hudson, Federals, the Gap, or any other national brands were still in the city, there would still be demand for this in the burbs.
It has a LOT to do with the market in the city proper. Chain retailers, especially, are only going to locate so many stores in a given market. They don't distinguish between Detroit or Dearborn or Livonia and Clinton Township--they see one regional market.
The problem you refuse to acknowledge is that the demand in the burbs is ALREADY met. Unless, of course, my ignorant ass missed the part where six-figure income earners are flocking to Macomb County from other parts of the country.
(Message edited by DaninDC on August 27, 2007) |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 4848
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 5:15 pm: | |
Technically, I wouldnt consider this development at Partridge Creek to be sprawl. Sure, the area is filled with mcmansions and big box stores, but they have been around since the early 90's. Partridge Creek comes later. This is just another brick in the wall. Not saying it's right but still.
You dont need 6 figures to spend $$$. It's called instant gratification and all those nurses and tool/die dudes out in Macomb County have the loot to buy what they want even if it's on credit. |
Gistok
Member
Username: Gistok
Post Number: 5201
Registered: 08-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 5:36 pm: | |
... and you don't understand me Detroitnerd... my only comment in regards to this scenario happening nationwide is that it is not local to Detroit... nowhere do I say that because everyone else does it, does it mean that we should be able to do it.
I was only replying to Dan that this problem is a nationwide scenario... and everyone is therefore "hitting their collective heads against the wall", and not just metro Detroit.
Got it?
This country is spending trillions of dollars on sprawl that we are ALL going to have to pay for (to maintain)... whether it's crumbling infrastructure, roads, sewers, bridges, etc. |
Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried
Post Number: 1053
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 5:36 pm: | |
Well, yeah Dan, I think you are missing an important concept. Yes, national retailers are only going to locate so many stores in a specific region, but what you're failing to see is that there has been a pent up demand here for a long time. It was mentioned above that two Nordstroms will be opening in metro Detroit in the next 8 months. They typically open 4-5 new stores a year. One of those locations could have easily been in Detroit if it was only about the numbers. Many of the indicators show that new retail development would do great in the city, however, much of the time it comes down to the city’s reputation and that’s what the DEGC, Detroit Chamber, and other groups are starting to change.
About 20% of the households in that 5 Mile radius of Partridge Creek have a household income over 100k, with an average income of 85k. It wouldn’t be practical for most of these people to travel downtown even if the same stores were there.
And who is picking up the infrastructure for these malls? As Patrick pointed out, this area has been nearly built out approaching 20 yrs. Very little site/infrastructure was needed and that’s a big part of why an 800k development is going up in less than a year.
Detroitnerd – I live, and own both commercial and residential property in the city of Detroit. I do not choose to live this way, and frankly I don’t get it either. What I do get is that people do have the right to their own choices, to an extent, and that government and business alike have to follow the demands of their respective markets. As much as you folks would like to believe that the government does whatever they want, if they didn’t follow the desires of the majority they would be out of a job. Is that right, not always, but it is what we call democracy. |
Brightonirish
Member
Username: Brightonirish
Post Number: 3
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 5:37 pm: | |
To: Iheartthed
I think WE would have loved to be located in the city proper. We owned an Irish import store. And found a great store front on Michigan Ave right down the street from the Gaelic League in old Corktown.
Unfortunately, with the debt we incurred while trying to maintain our business in Farmington, it would be impossible now. At the moment we do internet sales and hope to eke out enough to pay the debt off.
My husband is a native Detroiter, I grew up Downriver. We both love the city and before moving out to the Brighton area we had considered a 1900 duplex home in Corktown. However, we still had one child in high school and didn't want hin in a Detroit Public school and couldn't afford a private school. We decided if we couldn't have the city, we didn't want a suburb so we went to the county.
We both love Detroit's older neighborhoods, have no problem living in a racially mixed area and feel with the right precautions the crime consideration can be handled.
But......... |
Detroitnerd
Member
Username: Detroitnerd
Post Number: 1335
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 5:52 pm: | |
Gistok: I see. So, you're basically saying that since everybody is sprawling, er, then, we're all hitting our heads against the wall? Maybe so, but can you blame anybody for seeing that sort of comment as palliating the extremity of our situation?
Anyway, if your point was that we're not hitting the wall any harder, I still don't buy it. Detroit is held back by by politics and by provincial attitudes. I've lived in other cities, and I saw urban investment as an economic driver there. In New York, for instance, I had to keep moving farther and farther away from the city center to AFFORD staying there. The far-flung upper classes are moving back into the city. So, I'm not sure how that fits with everybody sprawling. It would seem we are not all sprawling. At the same time Detroit was shrinking, New York hit 8 million; and don't tell me that was because of new subdivisions in Richmond County.
And who pays for it? Is it subsidized? Given Jfried's rosy view of matters, I incorrectly assumed that he was a suburban dweller. Sorry about that, Jfried. But I still detect an ideological adherence to sprawl as a "free market" enterprise. Guess what? If you subsidize things, they happen. And if things happen, then you say that is what people want, and you subsidize it more. Is that a free market?
Did most people at one time want to live in the suburbs? Yes. Where are their children moving now? Some are following the conestoga wagons into the exurbs, but many are just ... leaving. And is that a national trend for large American cities? |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 645
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 6:24 pm: | |
To be honest, I don't get why Metro Detroit needs another mall.
Is that all people do now a days is shop?
I just don't know how a region that has about the same people now as in the 60-70's can justify more of the same stores you can find in every single suburb in Metro Detroit.
To be honest, even in growing regions, I don't know how GAP for example with stores every five blocks, make a profit with so many stores in the same area.
But anyway, North American cities are way over retailed.
All this retail, and we have less selection now then we did before.
Nothing in our metro regions offers the diverse shopping options that made city retail famous, like downotowns use to.
All these malls for example with the same stores, and probably less watch selection then what the 15 floors of just the Metropolitan Building in downtown use to offer. |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 4851
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 6:53 pm: | |
People in Metro Detroit like change and new things every few years. Honest to god, people will refuse to visit Macomb and Oakland Mall simply because they are "old" and dated looking. yes, I know...stupid, but the view is quite common here. Like I said...instant gratification.
No one cares about the effects of sprawl. Hell, most do not even know what the term means. People want new, new, new. People in Metro Detroit love their NEW leased cars and their NEW homes in Mountain Meadows Subdivision and they want to shop in NEW malls.
It's the "me" idea to the extreme. |
Terryh
Member
Username: Terryh
Post Number: 469
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 7:01 pm: | |
Now is the time to catch the end of season sales. You can get some great buys on summer clothes and shoes. |
Rjk
Member
Username: Rjk
Post Number: 818
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 7:10 pm: | |
People refuse to visit Oakland Mall? I rarely shop there but drive by it on I-75 and 14 Mile Road. If they're refusing to shop at Oakland Mall they're making good use of their parking lot and shopping somewhere else. |
Oakmangirl
Member
Username: Oakmangirl
Post Number: 197
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 7:33 pm: | |
You nailed it, Patrick. Let's not hope anyone like a panhandler impinges on the consumer frenzy.
No, seriously, new malls are subsidized because people want 'em. I know that this is oversimplification, and I don't want to veer the thread on a tangent. However, I think consumer economics is inexorably tied into land use, but is it the chicken or the egg?
"If you subsidize things, they happen. And if things happen, then you say that is what people want, and you subsidize it more. Is that a free market?
It becomes a vicious cycle.
Even famous "urban" shopping districts from the Champs Elysees to Newbury in Boston and Rodeo Drive; all have a very unified, bland, cheesy glitz covered by a veneer of wealth. Times Square has too fallen victim; they all have shopping mall vibes because people now expect to have a mall experience everywhere they go. So even if you stop the new mall mania, I doubt most consumers are going to hoof it around a city to seek out funky little shops off the beaten path. It's taken us 50 plus years to become mindless mall shoppers, and it's going to take a loooong time to reclaim the urban core for retail. Is it any wonder the remake of Dawn of the Dead is set in a mall? |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6399
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 8:50 pm: | |
YAY urban sprawl!
It can be both a blessing and a curse. People need to a place to to shop something close to home instead of driving many miles to find another shopping district or going down the ghettohoods and shop at a ghetto mart. Urban sprawl will cover every useless farmland and forest until the stores disapear. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 512
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 9:22 pm: | |
Danny, how SMART do you think it is to shut down public bus service to build more freeways for Wal-Marts?
It's corporate welfare that destroyed the Livonia SMART bus service by allowing our state to slash the operating budgets of SMART.
Danny, learn the facts on my website OR debate me in public ASAP.
Judging from your posts, I might be more SMART then you but it does not matter because I want to educate the public to make everyone less stupid and more SMART. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3105
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 27, 2007 - 9:29 pm: | |
It's about damned time Trainman showed up on this thread! Ha ha!
What took you so long? |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1946
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 4:54 am: | |
"Should people in Detroit have to drive 20 miles for groceries or a hardware store?"
I suppose this is fault of that all-knowing, all-powerful force known as "the suburbs" too...yes, they conspired to shut down all the grocers in Detroit by forcing idiot residents to steal from them and not spend money there... |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 647
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 8:29 am: | |
Can't Metro Detroit put a cap on suburban shopping mall expansion?
Ottawa, Ontario had a suburban mall ban for close to 20 years, banning all regional size suburban malls. The only retail that could be built, was local retail like food stores. But other then that, it was a no go zone for malls.
I think the ban went into effect after they had two or three suburban malls already, and they were worried about the downtown declining.
The ban has worked. The number one retail area is still downtown.
Of course, the Ottawa Metropolitan region was controlled by the Ottawa-Carlton Regional Government, which could inact laws like that. But I am sure something could be done in the Metro Detroit area to put a ban in place.
(Message edited by miketoronto on August 28, 2007) |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1952
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 9:07 am: | |
"Can't Metro Detroit put a cap on suburban shopping mall expansion?"
Not if public officials want to keep their jobs...
For all of you who hate all this sprawl, you all seem to refuse acknowledge that there are more people who like it...as a previous poster stated, metro Detroiters like everything new, new, new!
And I don't like it either, but I'm not nearly arrogant enough to suggest that our government should prevent people the freedom of choosing where they want to live simply because a minority of people (myself included) would prefer to see less sprawl |
Buzzman0077
Member
Username: Buzzman0077
Post Number: 108
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 9:28 am: | |
BrightonIrish could you post the website you use for your sales? A couple of times a year I am in need of such things and would rather buy it from somebody local than just some random website. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 648
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:28 am: | |
The Thejesus, there are plenty of American cities that offer the sprawl lifestyle.
If Metro Detroit officials made an effort to grow different, then people still have a choice. They can move to Houston, Atlanta, and countless other cities that have sprawl.
Look at Portland. The gov has made a decision to be anti sprawl, and that metro region is more famous then ever. People still have a choice.
I don't think people would be as against development caps as you might think.
Most regions in the world have bylaws. In England for example suburban malls are basically banned(one mega mall was opened in suburban London, and after that the gov banned malls). Same goes for Paris, where suburbs are not allowed to build mega malls anymore.
In England for example, IKEA is starting to look at downtown locations, because the laws are so strict with opening up retail on the fringe.
The gov leaders can do it if they want. They just have to have guts. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3108
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 10:30 am: | |
quote:For all of you who hate all this sprawl, you all seem to refuse acknowledge that there are more people who like it...as a previous poster stated, metro Detroiters like everything new, new, new!
Then why are your housing values shit compared to regions that have healthy core cities? You can't tell me that some plastic fantastic McMansion in Macomb Township is more desirable than the equivalent size house in Georgetown, Beacon Hill, or Alexandria.
quote:And I don't like it either, but I'm not nearly arrogant enough to suggest that our government should prevent people the freedom of choosing where they want to live simply because a minority of people (myself included) would prefer to see less sprawl
Arrogant, nothing. I'd prefer to see my tax dollars fixing up the places where people ALREADY live, than to create new UNNEEDED places to live. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1957
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 11:47 am: | |
"If Metro Detroit officials made an effort to grow different, then people still have a choice. They can move to Houston, Atlanta, and countless other cities that have sprawl."
Not only is this a retarded statement for the shear fact that displacement is inconvenient, but you still seem to be unable to grasp how the American system of democracy works....metro Detroiters aren't going to move to Houston if a public official says they can't build new neighborhoods out at 101 Mile...no, they're simply vote that public official out of office and vote in one of their own... |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6400
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 11:49 am: | |
YAY GRANHOLM!
More 1,000 jobs are coming at the new mall at Clinton TWP. That's the same kind of number that Google WHQ in Ann Arbor has. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1958
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 11:53 am: | |
"Then why are your housing values shit compared to regions that have healthy core cities?"
Uh, because healthy core cities make a region's property value higher, perhaps? People here, however, seem to prefer sprawl...you act as though there's one or two sprawl-happy people here deciding for the other 5 million of us that we have to live in new mcmansions built on farmland...it seems inconceivable to you that this is what people here actually want...I suppose once you get past that you'll have a better understanding of how this region works...
"Arrogant, nothing. I'd prefer to see my tax dollars fixing up the places where people ALREADY live, than to create new UNNEEDED places to live."
Except you're in the minority on that issue in this region...there are plenty of people here who'd prefer to see their tax dollars spent building new communities, hence all the sprawl we have in Metro Detroit |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3110
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 11:58 am: | |
Thejesus, it's really hard to say that people are "choosing" sprawl in Detroit, when frankly, it's the only realistic option.
It's like going to a pizza shop and saying that no one there orders cheeseburgers. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1471
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 12:01 pm: | |
there are plenty of people here who'd prefer to see their tax dollars spent building new communities
Surely you weren't serious when you made this statement... |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1961
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 12:06 pm: | |
"Surely you weren't serious when you made this statement..."
Surely YOU weren't serious when you made this inquiry...
...who do you think is buying all the new McMansions that have gone up in Metro Detroit during the past decade and a half?
It's like another poster said...metro Detroiters want new, new, new! |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 1473
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 12:17 pm: | |
...who do you think is buying all the new McMansions that have gone up in Metro Detroit during the past decade and a half?
People who are chasing the infrastructure. I think most taxpayers would rather their money go into maintaining their own communities than building new ones... |
Jfried
Member
Username: Jfried
Post Number: 1055
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 12:23 pm: | |
-------------------------
Thejesus, it's really hard to say that people are "choosing" sprawl in Detroit, when frankly, it's the only realistic option.
It's like going to a pizza shop and saying that no one there orders cheeseburgers.
------------------------------ ------------------
come on. people are ordering burgers, but they're just on the kiddie meal (because the majority isn't ready for them, yet). but there are people who desire & choose the urban environment. This segment is growing, and soon enough, every pizza joint in the city will be serving up those burgers. As the demand for burgers rise, the pizza place must deliver, or just like a developer that does not produce a product that his customer desires, will go out of business.
until then, do you want chessy bread with that?
(Message edited by jfried on August 28, 2007) |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 9877
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 12:25 pm: | |
quote:come on. people are ordering burgers, but they're just on the kiddie meal (because the majority isn't ready for them, yet). but there are people who desire & choose the urban environment. This segment is growing, and soon enough, every pizza joint in the city will be serving up those burgers. As the demand for burgers rise, the pizza place must deliver, or just like a developer that does not produce a product that his customer desires, will go out of business.
until then, do you want chessy bread with that?
That's a cruel post so close to lunchtime. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6401
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 12:26 pm: | |
Trainman,
It's not just corporate welfare that cause the folks in Nazi-Livonia to opt out SMART. It's about dealing the black folks who are coming to Nazi-Livonia to work, visit their friends and play. The possible growing black employment for EVIL Super Wal-Mart and other fears of having black folks moving to those cookie cutter homes in South Nazi-Livonia area made the folks to vote YES on the SMART bus opt out. Plus the folks in Nazi-Livonia City Council claims that they don't have enough money to pay SMART. As for right now those folks in Nazi-Livonia had made their decision and its in their right to decided to have any transportation in their street. You also have known that Novi, Northville, Northville TWP. and Canton TWP have opt out SMART bus in the 1990s. Why not make a campaign to bring the SMART busses back to those areas.
As for right now Nazi-Livonia remains the whitest suburb in the Metro-Detroit area. There are a few black folks living the area but NO full black community there. Their police force is getting tough on motorists who speed their streets and receive bonus paychecks if written more tickets and they sometimes racially profile black folks in any main streets. Sometimes they call for back up if one white Nazi-Livonia cop can handle 2 or more black folks. Nazi-Livonia's population is dropping and Its Downtown businesses corridor is almost an instant white man's ghetto. Nazi-Livonia will meet his doom real soon if they clean their act right away and welcome people with ethnic background. Nazi-Livonia can't be PLEASANTVILLE forever. It has to have some color like the rest of inner ring suburbs. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 1963
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 28, 2007 - 1:21 pm: | |
Mall job fair draws at least 1,500 so far today
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070828/UPDAT E/708280414 |
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