  Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 650 Registered: 07-2004 |
Many cities now are starting HIGH FREQUENCY bus programs, where riders know that certain key routes will always have a bus every 15min or less, seven days a week. Here is my idea for a started high frequency network for Metro Detroit. What do you guys think? Are there other routes that should be on there? Would these routes work? For the city routes, I took the routes that have the highest ridership in the system, with 9,000-over 12,000 boardings a day per route. Anyway let me know. This would be a great way to start improving the transit network without huge sums of money. HIGH FREQUENCY NETWORK Wait 15min or less seven days a week between the hours of 5AM and 10PM. WAIT 15-30MIN AFTER 10PM SEVEN DAYS A WEEK. CITY ROUTES ------------------------ WOODWARD AVE SUPER FREQUENCY ZONE Service every 7min or better, between Downtown Detroit and McNichols and Woodward. Service every 15min or better north of McNichols and along East Jefferson to Belle Isle Park. 1: WOODWARD-JEFFERSON Belle Isle to Woodward and 8 Mile, via Jefferson and Woodward. 2: WOODWARD-U OF DETROIT MERCY University of Detroit Mercy to Downtown, via McNichols and Woodward. ------------------------------ ---------- 3: GRATIOT Downtown Detroit to Eastland Mall, via Gratiot and 8 Mile Road. 4: GRAND RIVER Downtown Detroit to Telegraph, via Grand River. 5: SEVEN MILE Telegraph and 7 Mile to Eastland Mall, via 7 Mile Road, Kelly, and 8 Mile Road. SUBURBAN SERVICE 6: VAN DYKE Downtown Detroit to Lakeside Mall, via Gratiot, Van Dyke, and Hall Road. 7: MICHIGAN AVE Downtown Detroit to Westland Mall, via I-94, Michigan Ave, and Wayne Road. Service will operate express from downtown Detroit to Fairlane Mall. Then local to Westland. 8: WOODWARD 8 Mile Road, to Sommerset Collection, via Woodward, and Big Beaver Road. (Message edited by miketoronto on August 29, 2007) | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 229 Registered: 10-2006 |
Sounds like an Great Idea!! Has anyone every tried to Pitch an idea to MDOT or do they all get shot down?? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1390 Registered: 04-2006 |
Sounds a lot like MAC's Speedlink proposal that folks on this forum slammed as a crappy substitute for light-rail. Why folks think that light rail is a better system is beyond me. I personally like using buses, upgrading the infrastructure so they can operate faster, and decrease headways. For what its worth, I'd support Mikes proposal over light rail. We are broke and can't afford billions for an all-new system. If we're broke we should fix what we have as best as we can. | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 213 Registered: 08-2007 |
I like that. I want some more crosstown routes, how about 8 Mile and Warren? West side North-south routes, how about Livernois or Greenfield and Telegraph? | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 651 Registered: 07-2004 |
High Frequency bus routes is a great way to prime an area for LRT and also can attract many new users to transit. Adelaide Australia started the idea of special corridors where people know they never have to wait more then 15min for a bus. Now several cities have started similar programs, including Portland, OR and Minneapolis in the USA. It is a great way to get more people onto transit without spending a ton of money. High frequency service can make a world of difference. A study in Toronto found that two suburbs that are right next to each other had different ridership patterns due to bus service frequency. One suburb has buses every 5-15min and over 15% of the population uses the bus, compared to people in the suburb just over the city border line, where buses come every 30-60min and only 5% of the people use the bus. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 694 Registered: 12-2006 |
I have in my possession many of the current DDOT schedules. Woodward is on a 15 minute or better schedule from 4 a.m. to 1 a.m. M-F (I don't happen to have the S-S schedule). Dexter, which runs from Southfield to downtown via UDM, runs 15 minutes or better M-F from 5 a.m. to 5:30 p.m. but doesn't have that frequency on weekends. Gratiot has that level of service M-F from about 6 a.m. to 6:30 p.m. The SMART 560 bus runs 15 minutes or better much of the day on weekdays. So such routes exist, but they don't all provide weekend service at these levels. Now here's the problem with the concept, and I like the concept, but there's a problem. The amount of money in the systems is fixed, and decreases year over year. If we add buses to provide higher frequency on certain lines, we have to cannibalize other routes in order to achieve that. So folks on (say) Seven Mile get better service, but on (let's say) Vernor the frequency decreases from 30/40 to 60/90 and perhaps no weekend service at all. Or is the idea to find extra money from somewhere to get this done? If that's so, then I agree wholeheartedly with the concept. The details we can twiddle for days (hell, that's what a blog is for). Prof. Scott | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2749 Registered: 10-2003 |
So you think going from a separation of every 15 minutes to 10 minutes would increase ridership? The woodward route #53 and other high use routes are already on a 15 minute schedule weekdays? People don't want to ride busses. Increasing the frequency of the busses isn't going to change anything. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 695 Registered: 12-2006 |
Vast numbers of people ride the DDOT Woodward and Dexter buses and the SMART Gratiot bus, which I know from direct personal experience, because I ride those routes regularly and usually have to stand up for at least part of the trip. If you think nobody is riding the bus, get yourself on the damned bus and take a look. What makes you think people aren't riding them? More people aren't on them because the service is lousy in most corridors. Incidentally, frequency is one of the two problems; the other is trip time, and that's a problem with buses everywhere. That's why every other big-city region has some form of rapid transit to cover distances, and use buses for shorter trips. For instance, I can drive from (say) UDM to downtown in 15 minutes at mid-day; it takes nearly an hour on the Dexter bus. You need a faster mode to cover longer trips, such as Toronto and everybody else has. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3133 Registered: 10-2003 |
French--because of Michigan's strong local control laws, MDOT won't get involved in local (or regional) transit issues. quote: What city has ever implemented high frequency buses as a planned prelude to LRT? I've never heard of this being done. Most studies find it more cost-effective to just build the rail in the first place (Dulles Corridor transit study, for one). Frequent bus service is definitely desirable. I would expect it to be a supplement to rail, though, and not the end-all be-all. SMART's average trip length is still way too long (and slow) for a bus system. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2750 Registered: 10-2003 |
I didn't say nobody is riding the bus. I said nobody wants to be on them. IF they had another choice they would take it in a heartbeat. Increasing the frequency will not increase ridership. Increasing the frequency doesn't solve the issue of the bus taking forever to get anywhere. Travel times are still far too long. They offer no increased assurance of not being stuck in a traffic jam. I could ride the bus from the front of my place in the city all the way to the parking lot at the suburban office where I work. Would I ever take that bus? Hell no. It takes twice as long to do that trip as it takes me in my car. If it were a train, where I could be assured of not being stuck in the traffic I get stuck in every day with my car, I would be all over that. More frequent bus service is definitely not going to improve ridership. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 2104 Registered: 10-2003 |
Note that cities with viable transit systems, like NYC or Chicago, have BOTH high-frequency buses AND rail. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3135 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Exactly. I use both rail and the bus for different purposes. There is a busy bus route on my street (every 10 minutes or less), but if I'm going more than a couple miles, I prefer to take the subway. Typically, I'll use the bus once I go as far as I can on the subway, and then transfer to the bus for the remainder of the trip, which is usually the case when I need to go somewhere in the suburbs. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 696 Registered: 12-2006 |
That is exactly how most people use transit in real cities. The subway or commuter train or whatever goes reasonably fast, then most bus routes are configured so as to connect the rapid transit to off-corridor destinations. Without any rapid transit mode, the buses have to do too much, and you get the result we have here. It's infrequent and slow and few people choose to use it unless they have to. | ||
Tigers2005 Member Username: Tigers2005 Post Number: 140 Registered: 02-2005 |
Right on the money, Prof. I usually don't have enough time to park at 23 Mile or in New Baltimore, jump on the 560 and go downtown because it just takes too long. We need to have busses, but as a support system to a fixed rail system serving the major arterial corridors. Busses seem to be quite frequent on Gratiot and I still don't ride because of the time involved. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1864 Registered: 11-2003 |
We need both. That is, more high-frequency buses (even if it means some consolidation of routes), AND the addition of light rail lines for major spokes. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1391 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here is my take, right now we can afford to do major upgrades to busses, but putting in light rail would cost billions. I for one would rather see upgrades to the buses take place now as that would increase the likelyhood of ridership and better serve the transit dependant. Once we show that folks use transit, it would be easier to get the federal money to build rail full-scale rail projects. By decreasing headways on major routes and adding GPS rquiped traffic signal prioritiaztion for buses, we could make much headway into making the current system more rapid. (Message edited by Detroitplanner on August 29, 2007) | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 110 Registered: 04-2007 |
I'm all for increased bus service, but we also need a couple of other things to have a decent system. I know that some of these things are already being studied. 1. A fixed service up Woodward to 9 Mile at least is a must, and probably on Michigan-- and that should go as far as Merriman, with a transfer to an airport shuttle. Better yet would be a line directly out to the airport. 2. Express or limited bus lines 7 days a week, and very late on weekends, probably tied into park and ride locations. If you want to get suburbanites "on board" you'll have to provide FAST, CONVENIENT, and FREQUENT service. As far as I can tell, DDOT only runs one limited route: Grand River/Greenfield to Northland. 3. A system that treats the rider as a human being. Clean stops, easy to buy passes or tickets, seats at stops, shelters at least at busy locations, and route information signage. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 652 Registered: 07-2004 |
The thing with many DDOT routes is that they don't operate frequent service seven days a week, or at all times. And if you market certain corridors as high frequency, even if they are now, it can make a world of difference. Marketing is important. As for LRT, you guys do know that most LRT systems are just as slow as buses right? LRT overall does not compete well with car travel, because LRT still runs in the middle of roads. There are only select LRT networks which are just as fast as cars or faster. And those are the networks in St Louis, Calgary, Edmonton, and parts of the Denver and Minneapolis system. And that is because the LRT is built like a subway with stations spaced farther apart, and no street running operation. But go tell people in Portland LRT is fast. In one Portland suburb the mayor is calling for the return to express buses, because the LRT that replaced the buses takes double the time to get downtown. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 697 Registered: 12-2006 |
A pure streetcar isn't any faster than a bus, but tends to be more popular. The fact of that is well documented but the reasons for it are speculative. There are things you can do to make a bus or a streetcar or light rail system faster but they cost money. So the question is, is speed worth money, and how much? The essentials are, if people are going to use transit, it has to be clean, reasonably frequent, reasonably fast, and safe, and it has to be easy to figure out how to use. I'm not sure our current systems measure well on very many of these criteria. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1280 Registered: 02-2006 |
I think the first priority is to get DDOT to follow their schedule, from what I hear from residents. And if they can't follow their schedule (most companies can't), then switch to interval scheduling, rather than times. Say we don't know when the bus is coming, but goddamnit, they're coming 8 minutes apart. But Ndavies is right. I live in Chicago where there's great bus service. I have the Brown Line right out my door, but I occasionally will take the bus to the Blue Line which is a 3.5 mile journey. The only reason I can stand it is there's an express bus on that route that stops AT MOST every half-mile (4 blocks). Local buses do not work over great distances. I would never ride a local bus to work (7 miles), even though it would be literally door to door service for me, conveniently. It would take over an hour and be the most stressful, stop/start, jerky hour of my life. That, plus while the bus outside my door runs every 12 minutes or so, the train 2 blocks away runs every 4 minutes, and takes half as long. Decision made. (Message edited by focusonthed on August 29, 2007) | ||
Rokk_krinn Member Username: Rokk_krinn Post Number: 56 Registered: 10-2003 |
French777: I have actually submitted several road improvement ideas to MDOT, and they have actually responded. An engineer reviewed my idea, listed his/her concerns, and responded. While I don't know how receptive they would be to a mass transit proposal, I can say from past experience that they do seem to be receptive to ideas from the public. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 513 Registered: 04-2006 |
I filled up lots of SMART and DDOT buses in June 2003 with my mass transit plan. See this plan under DETROIT LINKS Yes, I will go on television and prove to everyone with facts that show without any doubt that I will fill all the buses on the major routes connecting downtown Detroit to the airport and the county seats of Oakland and Macomb. I've done this before and I'm sure I can do this again. I want to run SMART when I retire from my job. Hopefully, I won't have to with new leadership that can bring back Livonia by protecting state and federal funds and competently securing solid industry support at the fare box. I'm not against the local SMART tax, if we can all work together to gain solid industry support to benefit everyone first. I'm presently preparing a letter to publicly challenge the new SMART leader on television and in all the major newspapers. I want him to come to Livonia city hall to help him out. I'm sure if he supports my plan that Livonia will come back. | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 653 Registered: 07-2004 |
The thing with these frequent service bus routes is they are marketed as frequent. Its amazing what a little marketing can do, to boast ridership and even get non-riders to try it out. The bus may come every couple min on Woodward, but I bet there are tons of choice riders between downtown, the cultural centre, and New Centre, that would give the bus a try, if it was marketed as running every 15min or less, and has special bus stops, and the buses are guaranteed to be clean and safe, etc. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 1281 Registered: 02-2006 |
Well when it took a fight and a strike to get cops to ride the bus (and when you need cops to ride the bus anyway), "safe" might be a tough sell, unfortunately. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 514 Registered: 04-2006 |
MikeToronto, I challenge you to a debate. You are stealing my ideas and invading my territory. You must meet me on television. Your posts are too good to be true because they make too much sense. Why do you think our state will not pay for existing frequent bus service? Why are multiple operating budgets prohibited, when in fact this is the best method of supporting bus service? At Livonia city hall, SMART officials could not defend revenue sharing against average city council members who know nearly nothing about mass transit funding. MikeToronto, how do you propose funding the ideas you post? | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 654 Registered: 07-2004 |
Easy. The transit authorities have to better manage their money. In DDOT's case, you guys may not like to hear it, but DDOT could shave off a couple routes and use those buses to add service to the 15min service routes. DDOT needs a major route overhaul, as to many routes operate within blocks of each other, both with poor service levels. Better to consolidate and offer one frequent route, equal distance between the two older routes. Ontop of that, you need more money. The gov would have to fund the couple million it would cost to add frequent service. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 516 Registered: 04-2006 |
On Michigan Ave. alone SMART and DDOT easily waste Millions of dollars every year but they compete for the best routes. The use multiple tax mechanisms can overcome this and a one or two cent gas tax increase could do this. Actual statistics show that 40,000 cars could be removed from area freeways and roads with only a small gas tax increase. Even without a tax increase we could do more and we should considering that this would mean more good jobs. Miketoronto, seriously we need to go on television with SMART and get the 285 bus back. This bus line was full but was replaced with new routes that go around Livonia and they are not working because the jobs are not there but instead along Middlebelt road. If state funding were restored then SMART could bring back frequent service and the voters would not complain that their local tax dollars are going to other cities. This was the big issue in Livonia as bus money was going to Dearborn. This is why state revenue sharing is best restored. In all cases, states that fund public bus service get the most riders and the most federal transit grants. The FTA database proves this. Look at New York and Texas for examples and you will see this. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 698 Registered: 12-2006 |
Actually during the business day SMART and DDOT do not compete for the same riders on any route. Take, for instance, Gratiot, because that's the one I'm most directly familiar with. If you are boarding in Detroit and alighting in Detroit, you must ride DDOT; you have no choice. If you are boarding and/or alighting north of Eight Mile, you must use SMART. There's no competition whatsoever. It would make no sense to have a single local-stop bus on that entire 30+ mile route because the trip would take two hours. It actually makes some sense to have one bus serving local stops in the City and another serving local stops beyond plus suburb-to-city rides. I'm not sure it's optimal, but it's working okay. The real problem is no bus should have to serve that long of a route. Mike, you have to understand a lot of DDOT riders are elderly and/or disabled, and having to go a short distance on foot is very difficult. The essential cure for DDOT is for the City to stop using it as a whipping boy whenever money is tight. Just about every time there's a budget crisis in Detroit, which is every year, they propose to cut DDOT service. In 2006, they discontinued seven routes entirely, leaving just 45. The system is decimated as it is. There are very few places where buses operate "within blocks of each other" for any distance. DDOT needs more money and better management, and to revisit their timetables (which could be considerably sped up on many routes, which would help quite a bit). But I don't see how DDOT is likely to get either. SMART is simpler; it's pretty well run, it just needs more money. It would help if cities, such as Trainman's beloved Livonia, would join back up. But I don't see how Trainman sees the Livonia situation as he does; the fact it, the City opted out, and nobody pushed them into it. Most cities have opted to stay in. It's Livonia's fault, and their and some others' problem, but only Livonia can undo what Livonia does. Keep posting though, Train, it wouldn't be the same without ya. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 517 Registered: 04-2006 |
Livonia is a unique case because the DARTA agreement was not yet illegal. When the rest of the area voted for or against SMART, the DARTA was abolished. The DARTA could have worked if the cost savings were done first to coordinate the two systems and the work agreement protect and existing funds were protected and we had competent DDOT management but the state provided no money or any support for DARTA to ever work. There were other issues but the good news is that SMART intends to come back but Livonia residents can not stand alone on this issue. We need solid support from our state leaders and all the other communities and also strong industry support. I'm sure the TRU can help us out but they must stop looking through rose colored glasses and stop telling the public that we must raise local taxes to get federal transit grants. The TRUth is that there are many factors that determine what Washington will pay and also it will take lots of hard work and cooperation from many to bring good quality public transit to our region. The taxpayers deserve this and I'm sure Livonia will come back if the voters see this. Someday, I will be old and it would be nice to have bus service and if I can't then I want to help others out. I largely view mass transit as a quality of life issue. For example, if more people rode the bus downtown, we could have more parks instead of ugly parking structures, less traffic jams and lot of outdoor cafes instead of more ugly parking lots. I'm still protesting the large freeways and I think that good mass transit should come before more roads. Or, we should make the truckers and the drivers pay more. There is a large cost to urban sprawl and it should not be the lower income city of Detroit resident’s job to pay for the large new suburbs that need new roads and schools. Livonia is an inner city suburb thus has many of the exact same problems as Detroit. Thus, I want to get our city council members to meet with the Detroit city council to discuss solution to help SMART by cost effectively getting people to work. The FTA database shows that this is what gets federal transit grants the most. I'm also hoping that you DY'ers will vote in real mass transit leadership. We have lots of leaders in Lansing that talk mass transit but too few that TRUly understand that we need SMART and DDOT to be more cost effective by getting MDOT and SEMCOG to remove cars from the roads instead of adding a new road or a new lane all over the place. Y'all should look at the SEMCOG plans and see for yourself. We need to charge the big developers and make them pay first before they build so cities such as Detroit can have more money and then work to help Detroit do more with our limited tax dollars. Then people will move back in and then the local Detroit tax base will grow to help out with the increasing cost of schools and all other essential government functions. The TRU says that I’m preaching to the band when I speak to them but I’m not. They did more damage then good in Livonia and were a joke. They supported StaySMART which got slammed by city council members. I saw the debate and I wanted to debate for the TRU instead but the TRU supported clowns instead. The TRU needs to stop supporting the trucking industry and start listening more to the bus riders then maybe they can help Livonia bring back SMART. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 435 Registered: 10-2005 |
Danndc:"What city has ever implemented high frequency buses as a planned prelude to LRT? I've never heard of this being done. Most studies find it more cost-effective to just build the rail in the first place (Dulles Corridor transit study, for one). Frequent bus service is definitely desirable. I would expect it to be a supplement to rail, though, and not the end-all be-all. SMART's average trip length is still way too long (and slow) for a bus system." Dan, For the past 4 months, Baltimore has been running the #40 as a high-frequency bus line in a study for a possible extension to the metro with a red line. So far it has been meeting with success, making stops similar to light-rail or metro by stopping every every 7 or 8 blocks on average. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 436 Registered: 10-2005 |
Dan---link to study: http://www.baltimoreredline.co m/flash/redline_video/redline_ video.html | ||
Miketoronto Member Username: Miketoronto Post Number: 655 Registered: 07-2004 |
------------------ What city has ever implemented high frequency buses as a planned prelude to LRT? ------------------ Actually yes. Vancouver stared a high frequency limited stop B-LINE bus route in the Vancouver-Richmond corridor. That corridor is now getting a subway. The B-LINE did pretty well also. For a bus route, the new high frequency limited stop service, attracted 20% of the people who use to drive in the corridor onto transit. |
