  Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 342 Registered: 08-2007 |
From our *thoughtful* legislators...apparently, someone in Lansing thinks it's a good idea for teachers to tote firearms in the name of national security. As a teacher, sometimes I feel the need to protect myself from Livernoisyard, but seriously- I find this obscene; have we learned nothing from Columbine? DPS is totally against this, thank goodness. http://www.allheadlinenews.com /articles/7008468834 | ||
Ed_golick Member Username: Ed_golick Post Number: 814 Registered: 10-2003 |
I know of a few Detroit teachers who carry a weapon in their buildings. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2088 Registered: 06-2006 |
so you think the lesson from Columbine is that teacher's SHOULDN'T carry weapons? I'm not saying I necessarily support this idea...I think extra funding for dedicated school police officers would be better...but Columbine would seem to suggest that at least SOMEONE of authority in the school should be armed | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10132 Registered: 10-2003 |
Teacher carries gum, gun gets stolen, someone gets shot by stolen gun. School and teacher get sued for millions costing schools even more financial resources they can't afford to lose. Stupid, stupid, stupid. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 343 Registered: 08-2007 |
Scary thing is 15 legislators support this inane idea! | ||
Cgunn Member Username: Cgunn Post Number: 107 Registered: 01-2004 |
Well said Jt1. | ||
Stinger4me Member Username: Stinger4me Post Number: 44 Registered: 08-2007 |
It may go against the current CPL laws to carry a firearm into a school. | ||
Jtw Member Username: Jtw Post Number: 163 Registered: 06-2005 |
better to have trained security on-site than to allow teachers to carry guns. i would rather allow teachers to carry (and use) a switch. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2089 Registered: 06-2006 |
JT1: If they require the teachers to have CCW, and the law simply exempts them from the law that says others w/ a CCW can't carry on school grounds, then the schools wouldn't be liable for a thing...the teacher would be perosnally liable...now, if they required teachers to carry weapons, that would be another story... P.S. Again, not saying I support this idea, so please don't jump on me | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 599 Registered: 06-2005 |
The one thing we should have learned from events like Columbine and Virginia Tech is that students and staff can do very little to defend themselves against armed attackers. IMO denying trained, law abiding citizens their right to defend themselves is "obscene". | ||
Paulmcall Member Username: Paulmcall Post Number: 400 Registered: 05-2004 |
Hope they'll be a day when kids will carry concealed school books. | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 481 Registered: 08-2007 |
Yikes! Descent to the bottom continues. Home schooling anyone? | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 345 Registered: 08-2007 |
"so you think the lesson from Columbine is that teacher's SHOULDN'T carry weapons" How is arming teachers a solution? As others have said, a student can easily then get a gun or two from a teacher and go on a rampage. We can't solve that issue by turning teachers into vigilantes. | ||
Boshna Member Username: Boshna Post Number: 181 Registered: 01-2005 |
And what about a teacher losing it and going on a rampage? This is a poorly conceived idea. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6501 Registered: 02-2004 |
Teachers packin' heat to shoot at trouble students. Teachers don't need to buy guns to kill kids if they get in trouble. What kind of educational system are we running here? It comes to show that when your're going to school be prepare to defend yourself. | ||
Motorcitymama Member Username: Motorcitymama Post Number: 1 Registered: 09-2007 |
Three cheers for Paulmcall's post! Perhaps arming people with conflict resolution skills as well | ||
Philbert Member Username: Philbert Post Number: 278 Registered: 10-2003 |
Johnnny5, I completely agree with you. I know when I fly I wish we were allowed to brings guns aboard. I want to be able to defend myself. | ||
Ferntruth Member Username: Ferntruth Post Number: 149 Registered: 11-2006 |
"The one thing we should have learned from events like Columbine and Virginia Tech is that students and staff can do very little to defend themselves against armed attackers. IMO denying trained, law abiding citizens their right to defend themselves is "obscene"." If thats the case, let's train the students and make guns MANDATORY in schools. That way, everyone will be able to defend themselves... ...and America's love affair with firearms continues...... | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 170 Registered: 02-2007 |
Mini Police Stations in schools, now the suggestion that teachers pack a weapon!!! Are parents expected to take ANY responsibility for these unruly kids or is society supposed to police them? When will people start taking responsibility for themselves and be good parents and role models to their kids? After all, aren't the kids the ones who should mean something here? Why on earth should we have police in schools? Why would there even be a hint of teachers carrying guns? Are police there to control the kids in school, make sure no drugs get into classes, make sure no one gets beat up. Teachers are supposed to do WHAT with that gun? My God, educate the stupid parents who do absolutely nothing to nurture their children and then expect society to take care of them. This is really sickening. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1616 Registered: 11-2003 |
I'm with Johnny5 on this one. | ||
Master_debator2 Member Username: Master_debator2 Post Number: 31 Registered: 01-2007 |
Ok, heres a very simple solution to it. You make it a mandate that if the teachers were to have a firearm, that they need to use one that can be fired only from them. This can be done very easily via a microchip in a ring finger that is designed only for an individual gun. This was introduced, but I believe was shot down. Also, there was legislation to allow the staff/faculty/students at VA Tech to carry firearms. This was (pun intended), shot down. Look what happened there. Also, not to my knowledge, have we ever had a VA Tech/Columbine like massacre here in Detroit. Mainly because of all of the people who own guns at home. In a society where it is required to have a firearm, you have less crime...plain and simple... http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=55288 (Message edited by master_debator2 on September 13, 2007) | ||
Newport1128 Member Username: Newport1128 Post Number: 127 Registered: 05-2007 |
Buyamerican, nice sentiment, but that's not how things are going in modern day America. We have police presence in our schools because some parents don't do their jobs, and also because there are insane people out there, kids and adults, who would walk into a school and start blasting away. Until the worlds is an ideal place, our school kids need all the protection they can get. I don't know if arming teachers is the answer, but the knowledge that there is an armed police officer in a school might be enough of a deterrent to stop at least some of the crazies. | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1920 Registered: 01-2004 |
"Teacher carries gum, gun gets stolen, someone gets shot by stolen gun. School and teacher get sued for millions costing schools even more financial resources they can't afford to lose." Only police in this area should have guns stolen from their cars. | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 171 Registered: 02-2007 |
Newport1128, I understand your point. There needs to be stricter laws passed to make these parents act more responsible. Ultimately, it is the parents who teach their children between right and wrong, good and bad....too many children are roaming the streets, unsupervised and not noticed until it's too late for them. The idea that a kindergarten teacher could carry a gun is repulsive to me and I'm sure many others out there. Guns in schools are not the solution to this growing problem. Parents, guardians, the courts, the system, someone, needs to get tough. There should be no exceptions when a child acts out in school. Kick them out and ticket the parents. If it's done immediately instead of letting them keep attending school after many infractions of the rules, maybe someone will learn. The kids are in the biggest danger taking the bus to school. Why no seatbelts? There are not too many people concerned about that. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6507 Registered: 02-2004 |
Welcome to American. WERE PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE! BROTHERS KILL BROTHERS! RACE AGAINST RACE! MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY! What a bunch of Necromongers we are! WE KILL WHAT WE KEEP! | ||
Dbc Member Username: Dbc Post Number: 72 Registered: 09-2006 |
I love how the gun crowd thinks arming school faculty is the solution and imply that armed teachers would have prevented Columbine or VA Tech. Sorry, but life is not the movies. Police are heavily trained in firearms and dealing with armed criminals, but, incredibly sadly, dozens are shot and killed in this country every year. But a bespectacled, balding Humanities teacher with a spare tire, khakis, and a CCW (snide hyperbole intended) is going to somehow overcome gut-wrenching fear and calmly track down an armed nut-job and shoot him dead without hitting students or getting himself shot and giving the perp another weapon. I'm not buying it. | ||
Fordaspiregv Member Username: Fordaspiregv Post Number: 10 Registered: 07-2007 |
I don't know about teachers, but I think airline pilots should carry something. It only makes sense. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 808 Registered: 08-2005 |
quote: I guess you've never heard of the 1997 school shooting in Pearl, Mississippi? A 17-year old student walked in and killed his ex-girlfriend and another girl and wounded several other students before he was STOPPED by the assistant principal, who was armed with his own handgun. The assistant principal held the student at gunpoint until the police arrived, no doubt saving lives through his quick action. http://www.lubbockonline.com/n ews/101297/LA0540.htm So I guess your anti-gun stereotypes didn't really apply in that case, now did it? I suppose you'd rather that the student had killed a few more people rather than allow the assistant principal to have a gun? BTW, Israel began allowing some teachers to carry guns after Palestinian terrorists stormed an Israeli school in the town of Ma'alot and slaughtered 26 children. In 2002, an Israeli teacher shot and killed a Palestinian suicide bomber before he could detonate his bomb near the school, averting a tragedy that would have almost certainly occurred had the teacher not been armed. | ||
Dbc Member Username: Dbc Post Number: 73 Registered: 09-2006 |
Warriorfan, good post, and I'm aware of the Pearl shooting. I just don't know how the idea of more guns - let alone in schools - is supposed to decrease gun violence. With guns and gun control, people can always cite incidents on both sides of the debate to prove their point, but I think the arm everybody solution is a simplistic and myopic solution to the problem. Also, I can only extrapolate from general society, but if more guns equals less such incidents, then why does the country have such a high murder rate? Moreover, why do states with a tradition of gun ownership and less gun restrictions have such high violent crime rates? (South Carolina, Tennessee, Florida, Alaska, Nevada, and Louisiana ranked 1, 2, 3, 7, 8, and 9 for violent crime rate in 2005 according to the FBI.) If murder occurs frequently in our country despite the high number of legal gun owners, why should I believe that school staff with guns will decrease school shootings? It's a touchy subject and debating the issue is always interesting, but I just completely disagree with the concept of giving teachers guns. Instead, invest in greater security, like metal detectors and security. To me, that is far less onerous than the shop teacher packing a nine. Just my two cents. | ||
Richardgreenough Member Username: Richardgreenough Post Number: 3 Registered: 09-2007 |
Dbc, like I pointed out before, look at that town in Georgia where every household has been required to own a handgun for the past 25 plus years. http://www.worldnetdaily.com/n ews/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=552 88 | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 809 Registered: 08-2005 |
quote: I would expect that teachers who choose to carry guns (no one is suggesting that ALL teachers should be forced to carry guns) would be subject to the same type of intensive training and rules that pilots who wish to carry guns are subject to. The standard CCW training would not be sufficient, these teachers would have to undergo formal defensive and tactical shooting classes and demonstrate proficiency in shooting. Also, the firearm should be securely locked up when not in the teacher's physical possession, just as pilots keep theirs in a lockbox in the cockpit. I feel this would be more than sufficient to keep any "accidents" from occurring. Back in 2001 when Michigan was considering shall-issue CCW permits, Granholm and the other hysterical anti-gunners claimed it would turn Michigan into the Wild West, that people would be shooting each other in the streets over petty arguments and that innocent bystanders would be routinely gunned down by citizens with poor aim. That Chicken-Little fantasy never materialized, it was just fear-mongering based on prejudices against guns and not in reason, fact, or logic. The same is true in this case. If carefully implemented along with mandatory training and regulations stipulating the safe storage and handling of the guns, then we would have nothing to fear from teacher's being armed anymore than you or I have to fear from the 150,000 Michigan citizens who have permits to carry a handgun. | ||
Dbc Member Username: Dbc Post Number: 75 Registered: 09-2006 |
Richard, not everyone in that town has a gun. According to a Kennesaw police lieutenant, about half of the populace owns a gun. He also credited proactive policing and close police ties with the community and business groups for the low level of crime. A bit self-serving, yes, but he would know better than you or me. http://www.reuters.com/article /inDepthNews/idUSN171925762007 0418?pageNumber=1 Warriorfan, another valid point. But, although we are armed to teeth in this country, the murder rate and prevalence of school shootings is despicable. Given that we have the highest rate of gun ownership in the world (2007 Small Arms Survey); the highest murder rate among highly-developed Western democracies, such as Canada, Western Europe, Australia, and New Zealand (UN study); and two thirds of the murders are committed by guns (anti-gun control website), it is reasonable to assume that the prevalence of guns is, at least , a contributing factor in the terrible amount of murders and school shootings we have in this country. Consequently, I just don’t see how the idea of more guns – other than possessed by trained law enforcement and security officers – is the answer. Quite frankly, I think it’s crazy to arm teachers. I mean, if school SHOOTINGS are the issue, then, maybe I’m the one who’s crazy, perhaps guns are part of the problem rather than the answer. (For what it’s worth, I believe the Second Amendment provides the individual right to own a firearm. However, as with freedom of speech, press, and assembly, I believe that right is subject to restriction.) | ||
Newport1128 Member Username: Newport1128 Post Number: 129 Registered: 05-2007 |
Does anybody know of a school that has really good security? Think about the elementary school in your neighborhood, or where your kids attend. How good is their security? For most schools "security" means an unarmed hall monitor or office secretary. Guess who gets shot first when a "visitor" pulls a gun out of his pocket? Even though most schools have put some measures in place, I think a determined individual or group of individuals could walk into almost any American school and murder a large number of people before being stopped. The same thing applies to shopping malls, restaurants, churches, etc. Until the police arrive, the only ones who could stop them would be armed citizens. In a school, those armed citizens would be the employees who work there: teachers, administrators, custodians, secretaries. | ||
Michmeister Member Username: Michmeister Post Number: 247 Registered: 10-2006 |
How about the teachers walk through the principals office, all go in separately, but only one is issued the firearm of the day, while the others get a dummy.One is actually ready to respond in a stress situation whereas nobody knows which one besides the teachers themselves, keeping everyone honest. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 371 Registered: 08-2007 |
Mich, How about...no. I'm a teacher; we can't even get a fire drill right. | ||
Psychgrad Member Username: Psychgrad Post Number: 6 Registered: 12-2004 |
Bad bad bad bad bad idea! We do not need guns in schools or teachers acting in that capacity. We need teachers to teach and that is all! Hire a full time policeman - fine. Have him carry a gun - no prob by me. Teachers though, have enough to worry about beyond needing to have that huge additional responsibility placed on them. It might be nice if more parents did their job too, and actually parented their child. Maybe we wouldn't need to be worrying about teachers teaching with guns then... (Message edited by psychgrad on September 16, 2007) | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 2792 Registered: 03-2006 |
It is strange to blame the tool used in a crime for the attack itself. Saying the murder rate is high because of the prevalence of guns is a correlation/causation error. Perhaps we have a more violent culture in certain sectors of our society that causes more people to seek guns for reasons of attacking someone and others for defending against that. There are lots of guns in the suburban and rural areas but very few gun crimes as compared to the inner cities. Efforts to dis-arm the citizenry will only result in law-abiding folks to become defenseless against criminals who don't give a damn about gun laws. It always cracked me up how Michael Moore was interviewing all of these pro-gun weekend warrior types in "Bowling for Columbine" and implying their support for the 2nd amendment was somehow causing gun crime in this country. Of course none of these guys had committed any gun crimes that I know of. Those that are doing that, for example the gang bangers and drug dealers in the inner city were conveniently ignored. It makes total sense to arm SOMEBODY in the schools. Why allow an attacker to operate in a "weapons free zone," where he knows he can just kill people unopposed ? | ||
Buyamerican Member Username: Buyamerican Post Number: 173 Registered: 02-2007 |
Teachers aren't allowed to give a kid a hug or put an arm around the shoulder of a youngster to comfort them without fear of being prosecuted for sexual child abuse. They are constantly in fear of being assaulted by the very students they are educating. The idea of giving them a gun is a repulsive one and shouldn't even be discussed. Give them more latitude and allow them to show compassion towards the students and let the PARENTS teach their children right from wrong. Parents need to take a bigger role in their children's lives and start teaching them early to respect teachers, as well as others. Let the policing be done by the police. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 2797 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: The police normally don't get involved before it is too late. They aren't there when the crime is occurring. And actually, it should be discussed, that is called freedom of speech. The current system we have is not working. Saying the parents should be doing a better job is great but how as a society do we get them to do that? Allowing the teachers to give their kids a hug isn't going to stop these attacks either. | ||
Psychgrad Member Username: Psychgrad Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2004 |
"Allowing the teachers to give their kids a hug isn't going to stop these attacks either." While this may be true, it does not mean that teachers having a gun in the classroom is the best answer either. For one, investing in our schools financially needs to be a priority in every area of our country. And yes, while that isnt going to be the only thing needed to fix the problem, better schools that are financially stable offer more kids more quality options. The biggest thing will always come from home. Parents have to parent and be positive role models to their kids. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 2806 Registered: 03-2006 |
We spend tons of money on education and that is completely unrelated to the issue at hand. Giving teachers even better benefit packages than they have, which is where alot of spending increases go is not going to prevent mass killings in the schools. I don't think the Columbine or the VA Tech shooters knew or gave a damn about how much per student was being spent by the government. I love how every thread with the word "school" in it turns into complaints about some supposed lack of funding. | ||
Newport1128 Member Username: Newport1128 Post Number: 133 Registered: 05-2007 |
Perfectgentleman, I work for a public school system, and we've had no improvement in our benefits in the last 10 years or more. I now have a $10 prescription co-pay where it used to be $2. They are cutting-back hours for custodians, bus drivers, cooks etc. so that they are now mostly part-timers who don't qualify for benefits. Newly hired teachers have greatly reduced benefits and must pay for part of their health insurance premiums. And at least some of that money HAS gone into better security, such as video surveillance cameras and security personnel. Back on topic, it would be great if all parents were responsible and loving and raised their kids properly, but that hasn't happened so far in human society, and probably won't happen, because no one can control how other people raise their children. So, right now, we have angry, maladjusted, sociopathic and just plain crazy kids and adults running around. Until utopia arrives, we need police and better security in our schools to protect the innocent. | ||
Eec Member Username: Eec Post Number: 152 Registered: 06-2007 |
I wouldn't think that, just because you know more than Perfectgentleman and what you know conflicts with what he believes, he's going to change his mind on this. Nice of you to try, though. I can see the logic of putting more cops in schools, and letting them carry guns. I can see the logic of hiring off-duty police officers as security and letting them carry. I think that if we start arming teachers, we'd also have to start giving them lessons on handling guns, self-defense, etc... While there might be some justification for that, it's also moving them one more step away from being educators and toward being prison guards. Something needs to be done to protect the kids (usually from other kids), but I'm not sure arming teachers is it. | ||
Newport1128 Member Username: Newport1128 Post Number: 134 Registered: 05-2007 |
Me either, Eec. I agree that, if it were tried, those teachers and other employees who would volunteer to take part would have to be carefully screened and well-trained. Teachers, as well as other school employees, have to go through fingerprinting and background checks as it is, but even more scrutiny would need to be applied before they are allowed to carry firearms in schools. The current CCW regulations forbid carrying a concealed weapon in a school. | ||
Goblue Member Username: Goblue Post Number: 400 Registered: 03-2007 |
A superintendent friend of mine was murdered in his office after a grievance hearing in Chelsea, MI about 10-15 years ago...by a teacher...the guy killed my friend and shot two or three other people in the room...teachers can lose it too. The last thing we need is MORE guns in schools! Federal law prohibits carrying a gun on school property UNLESS authorized by the superintendent...or as a law enforcement officer. If someone is determined to kill there is very little that can be done to prevent it. At one point in my career I had a bodyguard with me when I was working because a school employee had threatened me after a disciplinary hearing (I was an urban school district superintendent)...even if I had been carrying a gun there is no way I could have pulled it out in time in the event of a surprise attack. I knew that if the guy wanted to get me all he had to do was be hiding in the bushes around my home when I came home after a night meeting. | ||
Detroitteacher Member Username: Detroitteacher Post Number: 1167 Registered: 06-2006 |
I'd never carry a gun to work. I'd be worried that a little darling (or their parent) upset over his/her grade might take it from me and use it on ME. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 228 Registered: 07-2007 |
What a bunch of violent freaks there are running around in the schools. I really feel sorry for all the teachers who have to worry everyday for their lives. I guess the family structure breakdown has broken down the schools. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3180 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: Ooohh. That must be tough to swallow. That extra 8 bucks must be a real killer. Most of us have much larger co-pays than that. quote: Welcome to the real world, the rest of us have been doing that for years. | ||
Goblue Member Username: Goblue Post Number: 410 Registered: 03-2007 |
Lefty: Schools are simply the mirror of the communities in which they exist. Every community has the schools it wants to have. | ||
Eec Member Username: Eec Post Number: 163 Registered: 06-2007 |
Perfectgentleman said: _____ Welcome to the real world, the rest of us have been doing that for years. _____ But we've been paying for it out of significantly higher salaries. | ||
Detroitsuperfly Member Username: Detroitsuperfly Post Number: 62 Registered: 07-2005 |
National security? That is insane!•••••• Personal protection? Indeed! Detroit teachers need them. Although, only if they went through the same training as law enforcement gets. (Message edited by detroitsuperfly on October 02, 2007) |
