  Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 925 Registered: 10-2006 |
Missing teachers anger parents Southfield uses substitutes until it can hire more math, science teachers. It might be the second week of classes, but at least seven Southfield classrooms are lacking one key element of their students' education: teachers. The district has seven openings for math and science teachers at Southfield and Southfield Lathrup high schools, and district officials say they don't know when they'll be filled. The jobs are posted. "We are advertising for highly qualified teachers with a valid teaching certificate because we need five math and two science teachers in the high schools," said district spokesman and assistant superintendent Ken Siver. "We don't know how long it will take." For now, the classes are being taught by substitute teachers, some of whom aren't measuring up, according to parents. Zenia Joiner said the substitute teaching her daughter's geometry class at Lathrup appears to be unfamiliar with the subject matter. "My daughter told me there's no teacher in her geometry class," said Joiner of her 16-year-old daughter Mersades. "There's a substitute teacher in there who doesn't know anything about geometry and just told the class to go to page 112 and follow the directions because he doesn't know anything about geometry. That's unacceptable." http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070911/S CHOOLS/709110375 | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 2272 Registered: 10-2003 |
He doesn't know anything about geometry?? What a square! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3897 Registered: 10-2004 |
Not having subs with sufficient experience in math (often simple arithmetic, BTW) is troublesome in and of itself because it demonstrates just how acutely serious the level of mediocrity is across the US. A sub requires at least 90 hours of college credits, but most of them are college grads and some even have advanced degrees, including doctorates in areas other than education (meaning much more qualified than education). So, just what do our college graduates learn while in high school and college? Teaching simple to only moderately difficult subject matter to kids is not rocket science. I was asked to teach the fifth grade at a school where its teacher (a recently retired high-school teacher from a adjoining inner-city western suburb) could not even teach fractions to her kids, in addition to science and English. So, Southfield's problems are most definitely not unique to this area. | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 458 Registered: 08-2007 |
Ugh, that's sad. If I were asked to sub in geometry, math or algebra, I would have trouble. For one thing, the language is a bit different. What the heck are fractals, anyway? I think I would get in some remedial training myself, especially if the assignment was to continue for some time like this. It isn't fair to the students to just tell them to read the book. | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 453 Registered: 07-2004 |
but, but...there are no jobs in Michigan! Shows that we need EDUCATION to prepare qualified people for these jobs. Not the time to cut support of universities. Also shows that slashing and attacking teacher pay and benefits is not the solution to budget shortfalls. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1367 Registered: 12-2003 |
There's also the issue of, why would people with math and science skills doom themselves to a lifetime of teacher's wages? I'd like to hear from all of the folks who think teachers get paid too much. If they were, there would be no problem filling vacancies. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3898 Registered: 10-2004 |
BTW, many metro Detroit school districts have been using Kelly Services for attaining their subs the past five years. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1596 Registered: 04-2006 |
Actually, there has been a nationwide shortage of math and science teachers for quite some time. I have been hearing about it for nearly 10 years already. The few math and science teachers there are out there quickly get sucked up by the more desireable districts to work for. Maybe Southfield should join Teach For America? | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1161 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: 10 districts in Macomb County recently formed a consortium and as of Sept 1st, they have contracted with a company (not Kelly Services) to dispatch and pay their subs for them. So instead of directly working for their district(s) as a sub, the subs have had to fill out employment application paperwork to become employees of this company before they can re-enter the same buildings to substitute teach again this year. Even after paying the contract house for their services, this should amount to a wash or a small net savings for the districts since they no longer have to send 17 cents for every dollar earned by the sub to the state to pay for teacher pensions and retiree health care benefits. However, some districts took this opportunity to scale back the daily pay for subs by as much as 18% and they are generating significant savings with this privatizing consortium. Almost all districts have a policy that says only certified teachers may substitute in the same classroom for more than five consecutive days. Therefore, as a retired mechanical engineer with multiple degrees, but no teaching certificate, I cannot work as a long-term substitute in a math or science class, yet anyone with a certificate can, regardless of their major. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3902 Registered: 10-2004 |
Mike, you know that's the way the teachers' unions want it. In fact, it better not be any other way. Just why did those unions pay so much for Granholm's two election campaigns (second highest paying "contributors" only outdone by the tort attorneys)? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1598 Registered: 04-2006 |
It's funny how certain people speak out of one side of their mouth about the mediocrity of the American educational system, and on the other side complain that teachers are over-compensated. If teachers were truly overcompensated then we wouldn't be sitting on such a shortage of math and science teachers now. I know a lot of people with strong math backgrounds (myself included) who would love to have 3 months of summer vacation, a week for spring, a week for winter, and two weeks over the holiday season. If only it paid better... | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1368 Registered: 12-2003 |
It has nothing to do with the teacher's union, the subs with teaching certificates are not in the union any more than the retired engineer is. It's white collar day labor. I've done it. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1162 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: It has to do with the antiquated notion promoted by the teacher unions and accepted by administrators that the teaching certificate is more important than subject mastery. quote: Pay scales that are negotiated between teacher unions and school districts typically provide salary increases based on longevity and the number of degrees earned and they make no distinction between the type of majors/subject taught. Why would people with solid math and science skills, who can command a high wage for themselves in the private sector, ever consider working in such a unionized teaching environment where their relatively scarce skills are compensated at a rate no better than the ubiquitous art majors? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3904 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:Utter bullshit... The cartel comprised of the ed mills, teachers' unions, and their overseers in state (and federal) government see to it that the supply of teachers be limited in numbers. Otherwise, there would be much more than enough retired professionals teaching--the last thing that the teachers' unions want to happen. Hence, they see to it that the state governors also see it their way. [That's the primary reason why the teachers' unions "contribute." It's a quid pro quo.] Many professionals offer their services to teach for nothing in their home school districts--only to be turned away. Even Bush's father offered to teach for nothing after he returned home as a torpedo-bomber pilot after WWII. He too was turned down because of stiff teacher union resistance back during the 1940s. So what has really changed over the past sixty years? Apparently nothing; even the same bull shit is reused. (Message edited by Livernoisyard on September 11, 2007) | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 1911 Registered: 01-2005 |
I've always noted that on Jeopardy! most contestants avoid the "Science" and "Physics" categories until the very last. I guess that's indicative of our society as a whole. Sad that "Rock groups" and the like are picked first.....  | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6489 Registered: 02-2004 |
In most western nations, our culture is more into reading and writing poetry, novels, novellas, philosophy than doing math. For our left side of our brains don't necesary work to compute in numbers. That's is why a lack of math teachers means of lack of student influence in mathematics by generation. In most Asian countries in the east. They were more into mathematics the reading and writing poetry, novels, novellas and philosophy. Their right side of brains can't compute well with western language and wisdom reasoning leading a generation of strict minded families bounded by the cultural feudalism. For example if your parents are born to do math, then kids will do math, also and many more collective culture doings. Meanwhile the increase of African American student enrollment in Southfield Public Schools leads to not only lack of reading teachers but also math teachers as well. Some folks think the Southfield Public Schools is going to fail like Detroit Public Schools, but NO! SPS is doing excellent in math, science, reading and physical activities. The SPS school board knew the signs are coming and the board needs to take steps to increase education to their students. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6490 Registered: 02-2004 |
By the way in 2002, The students in Vandenburg Elementary in Southfield, MI. score the highest MEAP test scores in mathematics in the State of Michigan. The school recieves a visitor from President George Bush and a recieve a presidental recommendation from him. Why can Detroit Public Schools can do it? Most of the teachers and administrators are clowning around with their students and the students clown not think about their future in the everchanging American society. Some of them will drop out, flight to those EVIL public charter schools or suburban schools, or end up dead in the ghettos of Detroit. DO SOMETHING PEOPLE!! If we adults don't change or habits, our children will go bad someday. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3906 Registered: 10-2004 |
Any success in Southfield will much more likely be attributed to the parents' efforts there than due to the school district. One major reason for the black migration there was to get away from DPS. That migration was primarily effected by parents moving there and away for good from Detroit and not by Southfield attracting them. Still, it's Southfield's game to lose at this point because that school district hasn't yet thrown in the towel. | ||
Belleislerunner Member Username: Belleislerunner Post Number: 348 Registered: 12-2003 |
Is it better to sell your soul for 20K more a year doing a job you hate than doing a job you're passionate about? Average salary of teachers in Michigan is above the average salary of all Americans. Those who complain they aren't teachers because it doesn't pay enough are doing us all a favor. I would never want a teacher who did it for the money. I want one who is passionate about helping others learn. | ||
Goblue Member Username: Goblue Post Number: 344 Registered: 03-2007 |
There is absolutely nothing antiquated about expecting teachers to understand how learning occurs...the most brilliant content specialist is worthless in a classroom if they lack an understanding of how knowledge and understanding are acquired. This problem has been decades in development. We've known that retirements would create a tsunami in the schools...nothing was done. In addition, teacher pay has not improved since the early 1960's for the most part. It was almost 30 years ago when I was a young school district superintendent and lost a very bright young female physics teacher to GM simply because of salary. They paid her a small fortune...or so it seemed...to work on something that sounded crazy at the time...called a GPS. Who could blame her? If districts like Southfield are having trouble you can just guess what its like in the small more rural districts. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 2118 Registered: 02-2007 |
"What the heck are fractals" They are teaching fractals in HS geometry now? http://math.bu.edu/DYSYS/FRACG EOM/node2.html#SECTION00020000 000000000000 | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 178 Registered: 09-2006 |
quote: I don't think we should pay teachers at all -- then we'll get the truly passionate, not posers who worry about things like paying the mortgage and buying food. I think we all know passion = competence. Just look at any beer league hockey team. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 729 Registered: 12-2006 |
This is a simple problem; it comes down to three things, two of which I've seen mentioned above. 1. If you have math or science skills, you can make a lot more money doing things other than teaching. It's not about being rich or not being rich; it's about making a decent living or not. Teachers just don't get paid very well. 2. I personally think it's ridiculous that you can teach anything so long as you have a certificate that says you can (generically) "teach". Several posters hit the nail on the head; it's an idiotic job-protect move by the NEA that does nothing but harm children. Nobody mentioned this, though: in addition to low pay, it's a royal pain in the ass to be a school teacher because you don't just teach. You have to deal with the school bureaucracy, but worse, you have to deal with modern parents who will take the child's side against you in any dispute, because of which it is very hard to maintain order in a classroom. I teach at University and I would not in a million years consent to teach at a K-12 public school, not even if you paid me a real salary. I don't have to deal with parents at all; I can remove any student who is unruly; I don't have to try to teach anything but my subject (in which I have expertise). Now a new question: why Southfield in particular? | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1663 Registered: 10-2006 |
This is a problem everywhere. Down here in Charlotte the district was 84 teachers short the first day of school, and 48 of them were in critical areas like math and science. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6495 Registered: 02-2004 |
Southfield Public Schools are over 93% black and 5% white and 1% other. but not enough math teachers to teach them plus and minus to trigonometry. | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 926 Registered: 10-2006 |
Danny, I hate to burst your psycho racial bubble, but this is not a racial thing. Detroit, Warren, Highland Park, and other high minority districts HAVE math teachers. It also is not a compensation thing since Southfield has one of the highest school taxes in the region. This is an educational thing. Southfield is just not running their districts right to have NO MATH TEACHERS in the middle or high schools -- for over a year!!?? I agree with the previous posters that its really ridiculous to require a Certification over proficiency in the Subject. It is also ridiculous that college educated people can't teach high school math. There truly IS something wrong with our entire educational system. We all need to be up in arms over this or our children - and our nation - will continue to suffer while other, better educated countries continue to surpass us in skills and technology. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 336 Registered: 08-2007 |
Wow, the misinformation and misconceptions... 1.I am a teacher. Not sure if all those Southfield vacancies were miraculously filled today, but no vacancies are posted for those elusive math/science teachers. 2. It's a fallacy that there's a teacher shortage in MI; actually, there's a surplus thanks to the degree mill at EMU. 3. You can't just teach science or math without having such an endorsement on your certificate for middle and high school levels; increasingly, even at the upper elementary level too. 4. Teachers don't make enough? No, we make too much? Make up your minds, as you're all experts. We generally top out at around $80,000. Not too shabby. Ever wonder why it's called a "noble profession"? No, of course not, who out here would actually want a socially redeeming profession. 5. Teaching, if done well, is extremely demanding and requires creativity, dedication, and energy. We need summer to recoup. BTW, the outmoded model of following an agrarian calendar is ludicrous; I'm actually an advocate of year round schooling. "It's funny how certain people speak out of one side of their mouth about the mediocrity of the American educational system, and on the other side complain that teachers are over-compensated." For certain people, I suggest home schooling. With all the money you rake in, surely, the little woman can stay home and teach/indoctrinate for you. (Message edited by Oakmangirl on September 11, 2007) | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1372 Registered: 07-2004 |
For certain people, I suggest home schooling. With all the money you rake in, surely, the little woman can stay home and teach/indoctrinate for you. Oh-ho-HO! Burn! | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1164 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: No one said otherwise. Are you implying that such an endorsement is also a requirement for substitutes? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3907 Registered: 10-2004 |
In a unionized school district, a kindergarten teacher of 3-year (pick any nonzero figure...) seniority has far more suck and gets paid more than a zero-time physics teacher--probably the most difficult of all areas for finding a competent teacher, by far. This might compare analogously with the bat or ball boys at Comerica Park out-earning a star Tigers rookie who's also the AL batting champ. Does that make sense in the real world? Undoubtedly, no. So how come the nation's unionized school systems get away with their nonsense? Simple--because they can. (Message edited by Livernoisyard on September 11, 2007) |
