  Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 730 Registered: 12-2006 |
LY, right on. Whereas at American Universities, the highest paid professors fall into two categories: superstars or professors in hard-to-fill departments. Seniority is the main salary driver for the middle of the road folks, but not for the stars or the physics professors. That's why we are considered to have one of the world's finest University systems, but we're nowhere near the top in K-12. At Universities we follow basic economics and we pay for top performance; in the K-12 world we do neither. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 337 Registered: 08-2007 |
Mikeg, See Professorscott #2 on certification; I don't see him mention *sub* anywhere. "In unionized school district, a kindergarten teacher of 3-year (pick any nonzero figure...) seniority has far more suck and gets paid more than a zero-time physics teacher--probably the most difficult of all areas for finding a competent teacher, by far." Nope, this is another WAA or wild ass assumption; this practice varies widely by district. Some districts will pay a bonus in critical shortage areas. Truth is it comes to simple supply/demand. Most affluent districts want teachers with experience; however, if hired you start at Year 0 on the salary scale. They think being offered the chance to breathe in their rarefied air makes up for a $5-12,000 loss in salary. They start you at 0 because they can; everyone is clamoring to work in these districts, so they have no problem finding a physics teacher. As for in-district teachers with years of experience, well, they go without raises during bargaining periods which often go on for well over a year. Hiring practices are all over the place too. In fact, though much more qualified and being a district insider, I was passed over for a job given to an outside applicant fresh out of college with NO experience. In some districts it's more the "who you know" game. School unions are small time and wield very little power. Why Southfield? There's no real issue. Check out the number of vacancies in Pontiac, then think about it for all of one minute. (Message edited by Oakmangirl on September 11, 2007) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3910 Registered: 10-2004 |
Because of an acute shortage statewide for physics teachers, Michigan several years ago had set up some scheme for Internet physics education for those students without a physics teacher. I strongly doubt that Michigan ever did the same for kindergarten teachers or ever will... | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2587 Registered: 10-2003 |
It's crazy that Southfield lacks for teachers in any area of instruction. Of 768 districts in Michigan, Southfield teachers rank #4 for average salary ($72,777/year) according to the most recent Michigan Dept. of Ed Bulletin 1014. http://www.michigan.gov/docume nts/mde/B101406_193494_7.pdf If we as a society think that competent math and science teachers are important (yes) then we should be willing to pay what it takes to get them. If it takes paying quantifiably good HS physics teachers $125,000/year that's what we need to do. At the same time there might be other teaching positions that are flush with good candidates at $50,000. No need to overpay for those. Our current compensation model overpays plentiful teachers and underpays scarce ones. Would a business last long if they paid secretaries and engineers identical salaries? | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2373 Registered: 07-2004 |
Is a degree required to do most accounting work? No it's not, but most accountants and the accounting profession would tell you that it's needed. And they would be right to a degree because the language that they use, like debits and credits, would confuse most non-accountants, but if every day language was used in the place of debits and credits, anybody could do an accountant's job for the most part. Now, to limit the number of people who can do accounting work, the folks in accounting created certain requirements to make it more difficult for just anyone to be certified to do accounting work. Well, doctors, lawyers, dentists, nurses, and teachers came up with similar requirements. To limit the number of people doing the work of the professionals I mentioned above, tougher requirements are set into place so that there isn't a surplus of workers who can do the same work. A surplus of workers means that wages drop for those in those professions. No one in those professions wants that. Therefore, a college degree and the passing of some type of test or series of tests(medical exams, bar exam, CPA exam, nursing exam, and teaching exams) is what one must face if they want to work in those professions. Now, as a teacher I had to take a basic skills test, subject tests in my major and minor areas, complete a master's degree, and take continuing education units(CEUs) within a five year period after the master's degree to continue teaching. So, do you think I would have a problem with someone coming in and teaching because they have a degree in math or science. Yes, I would. If you want to teach, then go through what I had to go through to become a teacher. Ask a doctor or lawyer if they would be OK if the government said that anyone could practice medicine or set up a law practice without having college degrees or passing difficult certification exams. They would be up in arms just like me because we have all paid our DUES in blood, sweat, money, and tears and to just let anyone come in and do what we do is an insult. The pay that we earn, whether as a doctor or teacher, is a reflection of the sacrifices that we made. I have no guilt about the pay I make or the time I get for vacations. How many of you are up to two or three in the morning preparing for the next work day? A teacher teaching math, but not certified in math is an unfortunate situation. However, a teacher who is a certified teacher deserves to be in a classroom over someone who has earned a degree in math or science. Why? Because that teacher has paid their dues and the math and science major haven't. Now, once they take the appropriate state required tests and certification classes then I'll welcome them with open arms. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2588 Registered: 10-2003 |
So in a nutshell, Royce, your argument is that pretty much anyone can teach but entry is restricted to keep wages up. And since you've "paid your dues" by doing some things you don't think are actually necessary for teaching (BA, MA, tests, etc.), you should teach our children instead of someone who actually has a math or science degree but hasn't completed the requirements to teach that you feel are actually meaningless. It scares the hell out of me that you're teaching our children. Your reasoning is asinine, and completely self-centered. You reek of the entitlement stench that has fouled our state. The fact that you have a BA, MA and have passed the relevant tests required to teach in Michigan indicate how weak those requirements are. This state is screwed. BTW, you also don't have a clue as to what CPAs actually do. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3912 Registered: 10-2004 |
There's an old saying attributed to Yale which states that the widest road on that campus was the street separating its school of education from the rest of the university. The academics needed leading to teaching certification are nothing compared to the academics for almost any other major. Most ed mills want their teacher candidates to suffer through a series of pedagogical (form over substance) and psychobabble courses, though. | ||
Parkguy Member Username: Parkguy Post Number: 117 Registered: 04-2007 |
Teacher certification is not about power or politics-- it is law that aims to ensure that the people teaching our kids are capable. Certification is not about how many education classes a teacher has taken, although that is certainly part of it. It is there to ensure that teachers are well-grounded in their subject and know how to teach kids from the brightest to the most challenged. At the secondary level, you MUST teach in your major or minor; elementary teachers are more generalists. They have strengths in child development. Any shoddy districts that popped teachers into classes they weren't qualified to teach can't do that any more. If the No Child Left Behind law has any value, it is in requiring those districts to place qualified people in the classrooms. If a teacher is not "highly qualified," then they don't teach. Anyone with a background in math or science who wants to teach-- and will take a cut in pay-- can do so, either with year-to-year emergency certification, or by completing the education training and supervised student teaching required to get their certificate. I put myself through college by working on the line at GM, and when I finally found a teaching job, I took a 25% pay cut. That was years ago, and the cut would be more like 50% these days for a beginning teacher. Some corrections and extra points: (1)Summer is not vacation. Teachers are not paid for vacations. They work on a yearly contract which does not include vacations. (2)Summer break is two months, not three, but teachers are prohibited by law from filing for unemployment during that time. (3)All of the graduate credits required by law to continue teaching are paid for by the teacher. For example, the cost of my two master degrees totaled nearly $45,000. All from my pocket. I'm a better teacher for it, but, yes, I moved up on the pay scale, too. If I teach long enough, I'll make my money back, and hopefully actually come out ahead. I knew these things going into the classroom, but I went ahead, and I didn't leave later on. I love my students, and I love my job. I'm lucky in that regard-- I actually look forward to going to work every day. Oakmangirl-- you sound very dedicated. Keep at it. You'll find a place before too long. It took me over two years of subbing before I got my first full-time position, and then I got laid-off twice before I ended up where I've been for all these years. It has worked out very well in the long run, but I remember how discouraging it was at the time. Just keep focusing on your goals. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 3623 Registered: 11-2006 |
Why are there so many out of work teachers then? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3914 Registered: 10-2004 |
The Baby Boomlet from the Baby Boomer's kids finally went through their school years. Therefore, there were way too many schools, classrooms, etc. afterwards So, naturally--purely from a teacher POV--the teachers and their unions cried that they needed to decrease the outrageous pupil/teacher ratio so that they could keep their jobs. And on and on... Finally, the taxpayers and school districts wised up and booted many of them anyway. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 338 Registered: 08-2007 |
Cc, there has been a surplus of teachers; now even more with layoffs due to our *thriving* state economy. The "news" has been spreading the shortage thing for around 10 years now. Parkguy, thanks, I actually am currently teaching under contract. My district hired an outside, less qualified applicant into a position I desperately wanted. Royce, don't you realize that most people don't see us as professionals? Putting us in the same league as doctors and accountants really blows their minds. You also notice how no one questions a doctor's salary or the fact they often head to Aspen or Maui for certification "classes". One can teach with only a subject degree...at elite private schools. Unfortunately, the several I saw in action had elite degrees (Yale included) and sucked. Teaching well is an art, so sorry, but I believe a teacher should have at least one course in pedagogy. Do some colleges produce cookie-cutter teachers? Yes. Do some universities produce doctors that should not go near a patient? Yes. There exist brilliant, ho-hum, and downright disastrous practitioners in all walks of life. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3916 Registered: 10-2004 |
I surely wouldn't put teachers in the same professional group as doctors unless they possibly went under the name of Dr. Frankenstein or whatever. What some might perceive as envy of one sort or another is actually disgust that such education shams could continue for so many decades since the real professional teachers were depleted from the teacher ranks via retirement and were essentially replaced by a long series of doofuses. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6497 Registered: 02-2004 |
Yvette248 You call my comments racial. The quote is a demographic sentence not racist. You're answer to my comments is NON-SEQUITUR. Please respond to my comments correctly. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 3696 Registered: 11-2006 |
So my question is still unanswered...if there is a surplus of teachers, how could Southfield be short? | ||
Royce Member Username: Royce Post Number: 2374 Registered: 07-2004 |
Yeah, Livernoisyard, I know you wouldn't put teachers in the same professional group as doctors. You're hatred for teachers is one for the record books. I don't know who did a number on you, but I can only assume that it was a teacher. Did he or she embarrass you in class and as a result traumatized you for the rest of your life? Track75, you unfortunately misinterpreted what I was saying. The point of my post is that doctors, lawyers, accountants, nurses, and teachers have to go through a lot to enter and continue in their professions. For someone to say that anyone can teach just because they have a math or science degree without taking certification classes and passing subject tests is an insult to teachers just like it would be an insult to accountants/CPAs if someone claimed that they can do an accountant's/CPA's job because they're good at math? If people want to teach, then they should have gone into a teaching program and paid their "dues". The public thinks that just because someone knows their subject matter that they can teach to a classroom of students without taking any courses in pedagogy. BTW, I'm sorry if I offended accountants/CPAs, I was using the profession for example purposes only. (Message edited by royce on September 11, 2007) | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 733 Registered: 12-2006 |
Royce's argument is interesting, but the results don't bear him out. Here are a couple of things which I think are facts. 1. To teach at a K-12 school, the chief requirement is a teaching certificate, which is more important than subject-matter expertise. 2. To teach at University, the only requirement is subject-matter expertise. Now here are a couple of other things which are certainly facts: 1. Our K-12 system is mediocre, at best, compared to the rest of the industrialized world. 2. Our University system is top-notch compared to the rest of the industrialized world. If you can give me evidence that any of my facts are wrong, or if you can find any reason for these facts other than the obvious, let me know. Otherwise people are just ranting IMVHO. Or they think something about their own job security is more important than the fate of our young people, which is horrifying. | ||
Goblue Member Username: Goblue Post Number: 350 Registered: 03-2007 |
If the university system is "top notch"...why do so few of the freshman class graduate??...or even return for their sophomore year...universities don't teach...they simply provide information...very few profs have any comprehension of how learning occurs...they stand in front of their classes and read yellowed notes...if the students fail to understand its not the prof's problem...very different from K-12. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3921 Registered: 10-2004 |
I've been fortunate and always had great teachers. But that's the rub because today those teachers are mostly gone and have been replaced by a new breed of teachers who were merely C+ high-school students in an era of rampant GPA inflation when the median grades today are B+ or higher. In addition, many teachers are money grubbers (let's go on illegal strikes types) such as Royce, who with its entitlement mentality believes that cost equals value. [I paid blank dollars to further my education (translated, so that I make more...), so that I must (by definition) be worth more...] Well, there's nothing wrong per se with expecting to make more with more education. But seriously, the only reason for a teacher getting a Master's is so that they get more because the teacher's contracts are set up that way. If I got another Master's or so wouldn't entitle me to more income because most engineers are not in the public sector where such ridiculous contracts are in play. In the private sector, one usually has to produce and compete for better positions. There is little incentive to do better as a teacher because of the one-size-fits-all socialist mindset. So teachers get the ubiquitous, generally nonacademic Master's degrees in education. Case in point: WSU offers their MIT, which I believe is called Masters in Teaching or some such. It's a bull-shit Master's degree. All one needs is an overall 2.5 GPA in order to be admitted into the program. A 2.5 GPA today is comparable to a D back during the 1950s. Obviously, WSU takes nearly anybody with a pulse... Whoopy! That must be a degree where attendance is the primary consideration. That and about $11,000 to the ed mill at WSU--hardly a powerhouse in education at any level. (Message edited by Livernoisyard on September 12, 2007) | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 735 Registered: 12-2006 |
Goblue, I don't know what colleges you've looked at. Remember, the University system is (in a way) capitalist: any student can attend any University if they can figure out how to pay for it. So I'm sure some of them suck. But the fact is, the world considers the U.S. to have top-quality universities, which is why so many foreign students come here for college. The places I've taught, we do not graduate anyone without a comprehensive understanding of their major subject matter and a decent understanding of the humanities and some scientific topics... very different from K-12. I know high school graduates who don't really know anything about anything. In fact, we have to teach them high school subjects all over again since they didn't learn them in high school. I don't always agree with LY about everything, but I've got to say he is absolutely spot-on about this. By the way, so few of the freshman class who came from U.S. high schools graduate from U.S. colleges because they are in no way prepared to study at a college. Most of the foreign-born students graduate though. Chew on that. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3924 Registered: 10-2004 |
Unfortunately, less than 50% of US K-12 teachers have the necessary math and science training or ability to teach those subjects. While I don't know the current figure, I did know it at the time I taught last (2001). It was 41 or 42% then. The other odd 60% are probably those Royce (it's almost unfair picking on him...) types who seriously eat up (and drink the Kool-Aid) all the pedagogical nonsense that one needn't comprehend the subject matter in order to teach well. In any event, the US schools who don't have capable, competent teachers for those math or science classes literally draft them from whomever certified (in any subject area) teachers they have on their staffs or can pick up from somewhere. I doubt that this will significantly change with NCLB. A dead battery doesn't always take a charge... OTOH, the rest of the planet has nearly 80% of their teachers qualified to teach their math and science courses--nearly double the rate in the US. That's probably another reason why US colleges and universities, especially the polytechnical colleges, usually have over 50% of their professors as foreigners when first hired. Of course, many of those profs are US citizens by now because the US has been importing such profs now for four decades or longer. Ditto for many of the medical doctors, scientists, and engineers in the US. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 3712 Registered: 11-2006 |
So why don't students in education pursue the proper training? | ||
Gazhekwe Member Username: Gazhekwe Post Number: 493 Registered: 08-2007 |
They do, but the definition of "proper" is pretty loose. If you don't want to teach secondary math or science, no one is going to make you. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 348 Registered: 08-2007 |
I think the focus here should be on our education system, not on generalizations about how today's teachers suck. Truth is children do not learn in a vacuum; parental involvement, socio-economic differences, cultural norms, AND teaching all play a role- the variables are complex. Yes, other countries do fare better than us, but they also have (gasp!) national systems, more homogeneous culture, and teachers respected by society. The cultural plurality here does not lend itself to a system based on conformity; how many young Scottish children shoot each other? Do Asian students go to school in their countries with their asses exposed? I've seen enough 8 year old butt crack to last a life time, yet no uniforms here (guns are okay for teachers though) because we're wusses- afraid parents will complain or sue that it squelches rights. You want to blame someone? Look at the paper pushers who comprise the upper tiers at the state level; they drive curricula. They decide we don't teach grammar, yet fractals reign supreme. They sway with the wind every time there's a *new theory* to try. Oh, and in the 21st century, I have a large number of 11 year old students who can't even turn on a computer. So don't blame us, I shake my head in bewilderment every day. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 2625 Registered: 03-2006 |
Damn good thread folks, I learned quite a bit by reading it. | ||
Goblue Member Username: Goblue Post Number: 353 Registered: 03-2007 |
PScott: I've been faculty and administration at three major universities...the numbers are the same everywhere with the possible exception of the Ivies and the most elite schools...only 50% of enrolling freshman graduate...and... university professors face ABSOLUTELY NO evaluation of their teaching...15-20 hour work weeks in academe are typical for professors...its not a job...its a sinecure...professors routinely and proudly state "We don't teach students we teach subjects."...its an incredibly protected environment...far removed from the real world of K-12 education...and far removed from the real world...the average professor wouldn't last a week in a public school environment...I got out because I couldn't stand it anymore and came back to the world. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 350 Registered: 08-2007 |
Danny, What do you base your *observations* on in post #6489? Asians favored math over literature and philosophy?!?! With all due respect, what the hell are you going on about? Ever hear of "Tale of Genji"? Written by a Japanese woman, 11th century, and considered widely to be the first written novel. The Chinese have been writing since at least 220 BCE. Ever hear of Buddha? Why do you think a Westerner wrote the stupid book "The Tao of Pooh"? I teach Gifted students many of whom are Asian; many can write circles around their non-Asian peers; they transliterate and translate for their parents. And...many Asian kids struggle with fractions. Then you leap a chasm to African-Americans in Southfield? Could you please explain? | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 742 Registered: 12-2006 |
I keep reading anecdotes here, which mean nothing. Look at the facts and try to explain. 1. Our K-12 system is not excellent. 2. Our University system is. I base this, not on some abstract concept of how education ought to work, but on how we measure up to the rest of the planet. Oakmangirl: If someone exposes their ass in my University classroom, they are gone and nobody on earth can put them back into my classroom. I have control. High school teachers, apparently, do not. Maybe that's part of the problem. Let's consider this. If you lived in Michigan and we changed the rules as follows: you can send your children to ANY public school. What do you think would happen? | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 182 Registered: 09-2006 |
quote: quote: Gifted 11-year-olds can't turn on a computer? | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 351 Registered: 08-2007 |
Professor, As an educator with a PhD, you should be able to back up your claim that our universities are "top-notch"; some are, and you know that it varies widely by subject area. I, for one, am not impressed by a university that has *rock star* profs who deign to lecture once a semester when it's really a grad student who runs the class, grades, etc. for a course with 100 adoring fans. The grad student earns a pittance too. Why don't we discuss how European university *undergrad* programs are akin to our graduate level programs here? Yes, our secondary system is part of the difference; it's easy to blame; why do you think this is so? Ffdfd, I teach French, so I teach both regular ed and gifted. Where I teach, the gifted teachers use tech more than other classrooms, so regular ed kids don't get as much tech exposure. We have no computer teachers for grades K-5. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6510 Registered: 02-2004 |
Oakmangirl, I wrote in MOST Asian countries, math was their prime staple than writing poetry and philosophy. Yes there a couple Asian philosophers and novelists but there not enough to fulfill the historical views to both eastern and western civilisation. Besides that 11th Century Japanese novelist do you all know more of ancient novelists? |
