  Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2177 Registered: 06-2006 |
http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20070920/BUSINES S06/70920045 | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 326 Registered: 09-2006 |
30,000 square feet????????/ Why bother.? This will still leave the Cobo vastly undersized to compete with other cities. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1900 Registered: 11-2003 |
It makes sense as a stop-gap measure. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 328 Registered: 09-2006 |
I must admit I still think this is seriously undersized if it goes through. 30,000 sq feet is nothing for a convention area to add. There are homes being built in the burbs bigger than this. You would need at least 100,000 sq feet to make any sort of noticeable difference. | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 415 Registered: 12-2006 |
That's true. "Planned obsolescence" springs to mind. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 3999 Registered: 10-2004 |
Not a hockey fan here, but I got a few questions. (1) Why is it that many don't like the Joe? (2) The Red Wings usually sell out all their tickets (or so I hear), yet many say the attendance is "soft." Who buys the tickets and why don't all of them show? (3) How many empty seats are (were) there for the playoffs? Why the playoffs? (4) If attendance is "soft," why build another arena? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3689 Registered: 02-2005 |
4) To provide a fresh incentive to show up (as if a top notch team isn't enough). And because Ilitch has lots of money. And because the riverfront does not benefit from an arena. And because a world-class downtown arena would bring shows that currently go to the Palace back to the City. 3) 200-1000 empty seats per playoff game. Because Ilitch asked way too much, and people had a spoiled "wait and see" approach a la Atlanta Braves fans. | ||
Yaktown Member Username: Yaktown Post Number: 229 Registered: 02-2006 |
My opinion on LY's first two questions... (1) Many do not like the Joe because there is no ambience there. It's basically a tomb. Having to walk thru the Habitrail to the arena, then going thru metal detectors (!) and finally entering a gray and crowded concourse. This webpage believes it is one of the worst NHL arenas... http://www.thesportsroadtrip.c om/badandtheugly.html (2) True, the Red Wings usually sell out but the number of no-shows seems to be increasing. I guess the Ilitch empire doesn't care, as long as the seats are sold. These are people who usually buy the season tix to entertain clients or business associates but sometimes the butts just don't end up in the seats. In my opinion, the only saving grace about the Tomb...err Joe is the lack of suites between the upper and lower levels. This makes for some pretty decent sightlines even for the nosebleeds. | ||
Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56 Post Number: 110 Registered: 05-2007 |
Who the heck is building 30,000 sq ft and bigger homes in the burbs?? 3,000 sq ft is huge for a house. 30,000 would be ginormous | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3692 Registered: 02-2005 |
30,000 is the size of the Edsel Ford Estate. It's smaller than the Bishop Gallagher House in Palmer Woods, the largest in the City. So, an addition the size of a large mansion may seem really big, but not when we're talkin about a convention center. You need a bit more than that. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1561 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yes, adding 30,000 sq feet does not seem like much, but it provides a little more space and buys a little more time to come up with a permanent solution to Cobo's space woes. That was stated when the 30,000 proposal first came out. It buys time for the MI economy to improve and make a solution easier to come up with. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 2635 Registered: 10-2003 |
My beef with Joe Louis and Cobo is the fact that they ruin the riverfront. They are ugly, and about the only time you can enjoy the riverfront from them is when you take the people mover around the outside. However, it should be noted that Joe Louis is considered by many to have the best ice in the league. Hopefully any new arena will continue that tradition. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1669 Registered: 04-2006 |
I remember reading somewhere that 30,000 sq ft(or a number in that ballpark) was what the Auto Show was asking for. It's not even the size of GM's exhibit (somewhere around 100K sq ft, I believe) at the show, but apparently that is all they needed for Cobo to remain competitive, supposedly. I remember the number because I was thinking then that the queens were crying pretty loud for such a petty upgrade. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1562 Registered: 11-2003 |
My question is, where is this expansion going to be, or what within the current Cobo is going to be changed, expanded, or demolished to come up with the extra space? | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 485 Registered: 02-2006 |
Lodge- I totally agree. I wish the city placed a bid for the casinos to compete for a new billion dollar convention center/hotel/casino away from the river. Washington Blvd should extend to W. Jefferson and W. Jefferson should be extended and made a blvd type surface street like E. Jefferson. <313> | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5385 Registered: 08-2004 |
The article doesn't mention where that 30,000 sq. ft. is going to be. Weren't they planning on changing the interior space between the main halls and the riverfront ballrooms older section of Cobo. Remember that section was never renovated during the 80's renovation, because a $25 million bond issue was rejected by voters during the CAY years. The additional space may also likely include that long beige ceramic tile hallway that has (or had?) a Sports Hall of Fame wall. That area was tacky. And it may include the riverfront ballrooms. So I don't think that they are intending to add on a puny 30,000 addition on one of the sides of Cobo, just increase the interior space. I personally think that they could save money by converting existing Cobo Arena into a 3 story meeting/ballroom space with windows punched into the sides of the building. It would likely be cheaper than ripping it down and redoing all the roadway and ramp to Atwater. Imagine turning the circular (dome ceiling) top level into a main ballroom with windows to give a 360 degree view of downtown and the waterfront. (Similar to California's Catalina Islands Casino Ballroom pictured here.)  | ||
Kslice Member Username: Kslice Post Number: 157 Registered: 04-2007 |
I hate the idea of a new arena in Foxtown. No other city does that, build all their arenas within a few blocks I mean. Like we want all people from out of town in one area. We cant let them go anywhere else. I don't know of any other town that has located all it's teams within a 3 block radius. Chicago, Kansas City, Indianapolis, they're stadiums are all over those cities. businesses who run off the Joe (Post, Cobo Joe's) would also be out of luck since no one who comes for games would ever leave the foxtown area. Just seems dumb to be able to stand in one place and say, hey, there's Ford Field, Comerica, and ______ (red wings arena). | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 2676 Registered: 10-2003 |
But what good does Joe Louis do for the area around it? Who WALKS from Joe Louis after a game to go do something? Nobody, it's like a concrete fortress. It doesn't benefit that area of Detroit at all. So what's the difference? (Message edited by johnlodge on September 21, 2007) | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 3329 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Ah, Philly does! They have a new baseball stadium, football stadium, and two arenas all clustered together, and surrounded by nothing but parking lots. The baseball stadium itself looks ridiculous sitting there without a context. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 460 Registered: 05-2006 |
Many people walk through Cobo Center to get to Joe Louis Arena. They also use the Riverwalk in nice weather. | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 423 Registered: 12-2006 |
Daninindc spelled backwards is Cdninad. But that in and of itself looks ridiculous sitting there without a context. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 186 Registered: 07-2007 |
ok, here's my idea. strange but it could work. put a hotel on the river front in front of the Joe, Put a new convention behind it (on top of it), after Joe it demolished, and attach to Cobo Arena for a Huge Convention Center. Make it into one huge convention complex. People Mover can take people to and fro. This will solve two problems at once and create some momentun all over (theoretically). | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 1721 Registered: 10-2006 |
Long term idea: I think that it might be better to build the new convention center up behind the FOX and build a new arena near where the Joe is now. In my opinion that's what I would do in an ideal world. Probably would enver happen that way though. | ||
Erikd Member Username: Erikd Post Number: 898 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Kslice, Building a new hockey arena near Comerica Park and Ford Field is a great idea. The area around Comerica Park and Ford Field has sprouted a number of new bars and restaurants since the dual stadia have opened, and the addition of a new hockey arena in the stadia district would be the final piece of the puzzle. The Tigers draw millions of people from April to September, and the Lions pack the fans in from September to December. Due to the combination of the Tigers and Lions, there are a number of nearby bars and restaurants are able to make enough money between April and December to get through the lean months between December and April. The Red Wings draw large crowds to the JLA from October to April, but there are very few bars and restaurants around the JLA, because they can't survive the lean months between June and November. As it stands, the JLA doesn't add nearly as much spin-off business and foot traffic to its surrounding streets compared to Ford Field or Comerica Park. If the Red Wings moved to a new arena in Foxtown, it would fill in the lean months perfectly, and solidify the neighborhood as one of the hottest places for year-round sports, and supporting bar/restaurants in the country. | ||
Emu_steve Member Username: Emu_steve Post Number: 464 Registered: 11-2006 |
Erikd, Agree with your comments. Quote: "If the Red Wings moved to a new arena in Foxtown, it would fill in the lean months perfectly, and solidify the neighborhood as one of the hottest places for year-round sports, and supporting bar/restaurants in the country." The idea being is to be sure that sports venues are not spread too far apart. And that a bar or restaurant can support baseball in the summer and hockey in the winter. bars and restaurants need to be able to thrive 52 weeks a year. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 409 Registered: 01-2004 |
What about building east over the highway that already goes under Cobo (Jefferson). This may be an expensive option, but is not unprecedented. | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 87 Registered: 08-2007 |
ErikD you explain the rationale to consolidate the stadia locations perfectly. Expand Cobo: tear out that 'roid of basketball arena, open the riverview side with shops and cafes that could serve the Riverwalk traffic and convention goers. Tear out The Joe, it is an eyesore, blocks the view of the water, sucks all energy from that end of Jefferson when it isn't in use. | ||
Jsmyers Member Username: Jsmyers Post Number: 1918 Registered: 12-2003 |
Can somebody help me understand why Cobo Arena (not hall) is considered so disposable? It seems to me that it fits an important niche, right between a large theatre, like the Opera House or the Fox, and a bigger arena, like JLA or the Palace. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2207 Registered: 06-2006 |
It sounds like the 30,000 square foot expansion mentioned in the article above is just the temporary expansion that we heard about in another article a few months ago See this Crain's article... http://www.crainsdetroit.com/a pps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/2007 0924/SUB/709240332 | ||
Gnome Member Username: Gnome Post Number: 104 Registered: 08-2007 |
Jsmyers: 1. Accostics are poor for basketball and horrid for music. The place is fine for Oz Fest because hearing is optional. 2. Handicap access is limited and difficult 3. Ballroom ceilings are too low for large crowds and too tall for small ones. 4. Stagehand load-in is below grade and limited to two trucks 5. A river needs to be looked at to be appreciated and an arena/auditorium doesn't need windows. 6. Concessions are equipped for late 1950's circus fare. 7. It currently works almost 30 dates a year. 8. It has all the warmth of a mother-in-law's kiss. | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1365 Registered: 02-2004 |
9. Restrooms are small and tired. | ||
Motorcitydave Member Username: Motorcitydave Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-2004 |
If acoustics are so bad, why did they record basically every best selling live album there in the 70s? | ||
Crew Member Username: Crew Post Number: 1366 Registered: 02-2004 |
....because, according to Rolling Stone, Dee-troit audiences are the best Rock-n-Roll audiences in the world. | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 285 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote:Pittsburgh's are all pretty close too. Mellon Arena is across the river from the others, but they are still pretty close. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4185 Registered: 10-2004 |
The string of consecutive sellouts for the Red Wings came to a halt this week, and there was an much lower attendance at the game. Why should another hockey rink be built when the bloom is apparently off the rose for Detroit hockey? Or is somebody going to chime in with more of the inane Build it and they will come nonsense? | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 2038 Registered: 01-2005 |
I had that thought reading the paper today about the empty spaces at The Joe last night. But Illich also noted it and said something to the effect that prices "might be too high". I think the man is aware, anyway. But all this bodes ill for new arena plans; for the immediate future, anyway. | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 623 Registered: 11-2006 |
i guarantee the game would have sold out had it been a new stadium. the amount of press it would generate would be better marketing than all of the NHL's marketing scheme has done.... | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5456 Registered: 08-2004 |
Yeah Livernoisyard... I guess 1 weeks worth of attendance logically makes for a big enough sample to base his arena business decision on.... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4186 Registered: 10-2004 |
Hockey is pretty much a dead sport for attendance, except in a very few markets--Detroit being one of the few. Hockey needs fan support in more cities to survive. Maybe the lockout did have an effect after all--albeit delayed. And how much more expensive would ticket prices be after a new rink? Considering Illich's past history, the prices would certainly rise, not go down. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 843 Registered: 12-2006 |
The various sports teams have built new arenas over the years even when they haven't been doing spectacularly well. I think the Ilitch family leaders are long-term thinkers and they're not likely to be swayed, one way or another, by a season or two of better than usual or worse than usual attendance. Just my humble opinion. | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 297 Registered: 08-2006 |
Curious, were the Tigers a good team selling out games before the move to Comerica? Truth is it doesnt matter if the team is selling out games to move to a new arena. The Wings put a top notch product out there year in and year out. If Illitch get a new arena he can compete more with the Palace for concerts the require that kind of venue. It still makes great business sense to build a new arena. Its laughable that one game not selling out sparks conversation that the Wings no longer need a new arena and that people dont care about hockey anymore. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4187 Registered: 10-2004 |
It's not just the failure to sell out their only home game so far, but Red Wings hockey game attendance had dropped last year too--meaning more no-shows, even though being sold out. Even the Lions needed corporate support and an NFL extension of a day or two to help "sell out" their first home game this season to avoid a TV blackout. However, their 3-1 record so far should help them through the rest of the season. | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 894 Registered: 11-2003 |
As Drew Sharpe pointed out in his column this morning, this was against the champs on opening night. How many people are going to show up on a cold winter night when they're playing Columbus? I don't hear anywhere the same buzz about the Wings that I heard years ago. I think it's getting back to being a sport that will just bring in the hard core fans in Detroit. The casual fans seem to have left the sport. Reminds me of the saying that there are 20,000 hockey fans in this area and they all show up at the JLA for the games. The problem is that you can't even use the number 20,000 now. |
