  Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 535 Registered: 04-2006 |
Hey there detroityessers - I`ve done the usual archive search on the Detroit residency requirement, but found that the threads didn`t really delve into some of the more academic sides of this topic... i`m writing a graduate essay on this topic... high level officials in major cities and residency requirements... what do you think and do you have any good thoughts or links to scholarly articles on the topic that I could read? For example, do cities like NYC, Chicago, Portland have such requirements? if so, do you have proof of this? thank you. i`m just beginning my research on this topic and would appreciate any related information or discussion. I for one believe the obvious + & - are that first it might attract higherlevel officials to the jobs... BUT it means that whomever takes the jobs has less of an incentive to do a good job, they don`t have to feel the repurcussions - they also don`t really have a TRUE feel for the needs of the community. | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 580 Registered: 11-2006 |
kilpatrick has said that his cabinet appointments must reside in the city... | ||
Broken_main Member Username: Broken_main Post Number: 1313 Registered: 06-2005 |
Andylinn I work for the city and live in the city. When I was hired 11 years ago, it was required that all city workers reside in the city. When Archer was mayor, that was lifted. If I am not mistaken, somehow they found it to be unconstitutional. Now I am the minority in my office where the majority of the workers live in the suburbs. Some as far as the City of Lapeer, Independence. There is a (supposed) 25 mile limit boundary from the city limits in effect, but sadly, that too, is ignored. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 1935 Registered: 01-2005 |
When the residency rule was in effect for the City of Detroit, enforcement was a major problem....read that as "headache". Untold manhours were spent by the city following employees and investigating their personal data in attempts to find violators. Most of them had a Detroit address. But, then, what's the difference between that and one who has a cottage out in the boondocks? Nothing wrong with that. Residency requirements for grunt workers is just not really workable. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 125 Registered: 10-2006 |
NYC does not have such requirements while Chicago does. I would say that requirements are more trouble than they are worth. The requirements limit the potential pool of applicants and workers will try and evade the rules. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 456 Registered: 05-2006 |
quote: For some reason, this is a persistent myth. Numerous rulings by state courts have upheld the constitutionality of municipal residency requirements. The residency requirement was abolished in 1999 by an act of the state legislature at the urging of Governor John Engler THE RESIDENCY REBELLION By Alan Ehrenhalt) | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 143 Registered: 03-2007 |
Ray1936, I thought that somewhere along the line I heard the residency requirement was something that dated back to 1918. However, occasionally in the 1960's City of Detroit Polk Directories I noticed that some police and firefighters had listed addresses outside the city. I have some questions about this matter if do not mind. I believe your tenure with the DPD was 1959-84 (1) Were their any Detroit Police Department union contracts between 1959-73 that lifted the residency requirement during the length of the particular contract ? (2) Did the Miriani, Cavanagh, and Gribbs administrations along with the respective Police Commissioners make any effort to enforce the residency requirement ? (3) Would you have lived in Detroit regardless of the residency requirement, and if not when do you think you would have moved ? (4) What was your opinion of your co-workers that ignored the residency requirement ? I actually have a few more questions but I think this is a good start. I apologize if that is too many. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 142 Registered: 07-2007 |
BUT it means that whomever takes the jobs has less of an incentive to do a good job, they don`t have to feel the repurcussions - they also don`t really have a TRUE feel for the needs of the community. Base the hire on if they will do a great job, not where they live. Repurcusions of what? You don;t have to FEEL anything if you are doing the correct Thing. I would personally feel offended if a city demanded I live in a certain area to work for them. If they area is not that great to live in to begin with, why work there. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 1936 Registered: 01-2005 |
"(1) Were their any Detroit Police Department union contracts between 1959-73 that lifted the residency requirement during the length of the particular contract ? " No. (2) Did the Miriani, Cavanagh, and Gribbs administrations along with the respective Police Commissioners make any effort to enforce the residency requirement ? Frankly, it was pretty much a non-problem until after the 1967 riots, which were the Cavanagh administration. There may have been some enforcement efforts under Gribbs, but I can't recall any specific instance. With the Coleman Young administration starting in 1974, it became a major focus of police administrators, probably so directed by Young (personal opinion). (3) Would you have lived in Detroit regardless of the residency requirement, and if not when do you think you would have moved ? I did, and really had no thought of moving out. Hell, we all lived from paycheck to paycheck, and housing in Detroit was cheaper than in the 'burbs. But by the time I retired in 84, even though the Rosedale Park home we moved into in '77 was decent turf, I was ready to say adios, hombres. (4) What was your opinion of your co-workers that ignored the residency requirement ? Wasn't any of my business. And as a supervisor, I was never asked to check up on one of my crews. If I had been, I would have made a decent effort at it, though. Not all parts of the job were pleasant, and that would have just been one facet to grin and bear. Actually, I knew one guy who lived in Imlay City, and I thought he was out of his gourd to make that round trip every day. Shoot away with any other questions you might have. | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 144 Registered: 03-2007 |
Ray1936, Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions. BTW, Congratulations on that being Post number 1936 ! I have additional questions but I want to follow-up on one of your response to question (4) 4) What was your opinion of your co-workers that ignored the residency requirement ? *"Wasn't any of my business. And as a supervisor, I was never asked to check up on one of my crews. If I had been, I would have made a decent effort at it, though. Not all parts of the job were pleasant, and that would have just been one facet to grin and bear. Actually, I knew one guy who lived in Imlay City, and I thought he was out of his gourd to make that round trip every day." I found your thought interesting that residency situations were not any of your business. One could make the argument as a City of Detroit taxpayer-resident that is justification alone for questioning someone that disregarded that regulation. I had a discussion some years back about the residency requirement with a former DPD uniform Sergeant that worked at the Davison precinct. He is a World War II vet and was in the department from the early 1950's-late 1970's so maybe his response about the residency requirement is typical of his generation. Basically, he believed disregarding the residency requirement was arrogant because its sending a message that the residents are good enough to pay his salary, but living among those same taxpayers is beneath police/firefighters. However, it should be noted that during his years with the department and at least half of your time in DPD more neighborhoods were considered acceptable to live in from a safety perspective. The half of dozen City of Detroit employees I have known never lived in the suburbs while working for the city. However, all of them had one thing in common: They sent their children to Detroit Catholic Schools which is something that is relevant to my next question. (5)Based on your interactions with other DPD employees that did not live in the city, did it seem the Detroit Public School System was usually the justification for not living in the city ? (6) When you lived in the Pembroke-Southfield area did it seem that neighborhood had a high concentration of City of Detroit employees ? (7) Is it true that the Greenfield-Tireman area had a high concentration of Police and Firefighters until the early 1970's ? If so, was this due to cost of housing, schools, etc. ? (8) If the city in 1984 concerning the crime situation was more similar to the ways things were in 1959, would you have stayed longer than 25 years ? Did most of the people you knew that retired from DPD in the 1960's have more than 25 years of service, and did many more make it to 35 years especially compared to your era ? (Message edited by Whithorn11446 on September 17, 2007) | ||
Crash_nyc Member Username: Crash_nyc Post Number: 1031 Registered: 08-2004 |
Here's another angle to consider, Andylinn. As Crawford stated above, NYC does not have residency requirements, and this has presented "problems" in the past with regard to some people's opinions about whether or not suburbanites are fit to patrol high-crime neighborhoods in the inner-city. In the case of the fatal police shooting of Amadou Diallo in 1999, 41 shots were fired by NYPD officers, 19 of which hit Diallo (some of the bullets were even found to have impacted the soles of his feet). The plain-clothed cops claimed to have identified themselves as NYPD, and when Diallo pulled out his wallet, one of them yelled "gun!", and they opened fire. He was later found to be un-armed. The cops who fired the most bullets in this incident were raised in mostly low-crime, white suburbs. I remember that Kenneth Boss was from Kings Park, Long Island, 40 miles outside of NYC, where most kids' parents engrain within them an inherent fear of New York City in general (I lived in that area for about a year before moving to Brooklyn). This begs the question: should people who were raised in plush suburban atmospheres be assigned to hard-core, high-crime, inner-city neighborhoods -- neighborhoods that they would have never dreamt of even going near prior to their jobs as cops? They would obviously be nervous about going there in the first place, but now they're patrolling these streets with guns-at-the-ready and decidedly itchy trigger-fingers. This argument should present an interesting angle to your research Andylinn, as I remember it being raised during the months following the shooting. | ||
Smitch Member Username: Smitch Post Number: 23 Registered: 04-2007 |
Ramcharger, The link doesnt work. I am sure it would be interesting reading | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 1181 Registered: 12-2005 |
This is the correct link: http://www.governing.com/archi ve/2000/may/assess.txt | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 1628 Registered: 04-2006 |
This begs the question: should people who were raised in plush suburban atmospheres be assigned to hard-core, high-crime, inner-city neighborhoods -- neighborhoods that they would have never dreamt of even going near prior to their jobs as cops? I wouldn't go as far as to ban people who grew up with certain backgrounds... because how can you then justify sending American soldiers on U.N. peacekeeping missions? Or to patrol the streets of Baghdad? But in this day and age of "diversity" why isn't more being done to educate workers on cultural sensitivity or cultural biases? | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 536 Registered: 04-2006 |
thank you all for this information: Ramcharger do you have a newer link for that page/info/article? that link is dead i believe... BrokenMain / Anyone who has first hand experience with the residency requirement/lack there of, would you be willing to let me speak with you VERY briefly through email? my email address is Andylinn@gmail.com thank you! - andy | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 2489 Registered: 10-2003 |
It seems to me that when there was a residency requirement for DPD, they all lived in the same neighborhood anyway, so it didn't really have the effect of motivating them to keep their communities safe, since their neighborhood was always safe. Who's going to start trouble on a street full of cops? | ||
Whithorn11446 Member Username: Whithorn11446 Post Number: 146 Registered: 03-2007 |
"It seems to me that when there was a residency requirement for DPD, they all lived in the same neighborhood anyway, so it didn't really have the effect of motivating them to keep their communities safe, since their neighborhood was always safe. Who's going to start trouble on a street full of cops?" I will break this down to make the response a little easier to read. "It seems to me that when there was a residency requirement for DPD, they all lived in the same neighborhood anyway" Depends on the era you are referring to. Yes, even before Coleman was mayor certain Northeast and Northwest side neighborhoods were popular. However, DPD personnel resided in different neighborhoods on the east side whether it was Gratiot-6 Mile, Harper-Whittier,7 Mile-Hoover, Hayes-Outer Drive, etc. Ray1936 could speak about the west side. "so it didn't really have the effect of motivating them to keep their communities safe, since their neighborhood was always safe. Who's going to start trouble on a street full of cops?" At least those neighborhoods were safer when they were there. I'm sure some residents in Harper Woods were disappointed seeing the For Sale signs go up on the other side of Kingsville when the residency requirement changed. I think the lack of motivation to keep the rest of the neighborhoods safe outside of their own was more due to some other circumstances(1) Working in Detroit for only couple of years before moving to the suburbs(2)Recent generations of DPD personnel not being raised in Detroit and therefore a lack of family members residing in the city. It was still a fairly common situation into the 1980's for a Detroit Police officer to have at least a few relatives living in "regular neighborhoods" | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 150 Registered: 07-2007 |
i guess average people can't keep their own neighborhoods safe, what a shame this has become. | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 1938 Registered: 01-2005 |
(5)Based on your interactions with other DPD employees that did not live in the city, did it seem the Detroit Public School System was usually the justification for not living in the city ? I believe it was, at least for those who had children <g>. Thanks for catching that post #1936, I would have missed it completely. Where's my prize, Jjaba????  (6) When you lived in the Pembroke-Southfield area did it seem that neighborhood had a high concentration of City of Detroit employees ? Lord, yes, back in the sixties. In my block on Lindsay, just N of Pembroke, there were four police officers, two firefighters, and at least one Public Lighting lineman that I'm aware of. Moved to 20001 Houghton (Lahser/Pembroke) in 1972 and they were thick in that area also back then. (7) Is it true that the Greenfield-Tireman area had a high concentration of Police and Firefighters until the early 1970's ? If so, was this due to cost of housing, schools, etc. ? Um, I wasn't familiar with the Greenfield-Tireman area, can't really comment. (8) If the city in 1984 concerning the crime situation was more similar to the ways things were in 1959, would you have stayed longer than 25 years ? Did most of the people you knew that retired from DPD in the 1960's have more than 25 years of service, and did many more make it to 35 years especially compared to your era ? Let me answer the last one first. Most DPD employees "pull the pin" after 25 years. It's for a number of reasons. First of all, you're now around 50 and in no shape to be chasing after all the rummy-dubs in town. Police work is a young man's job. Secondly, it's economically practical to take your pension and go on to a second career. Some end up with a second pension, others (like me) end up with Social Security benefits and Medicare. Remember that police officers who are under a government pension plan are exempt from paying into (or qualifying for) Social Security and Medicare. So if one has any marketable talents at all, he/she would be nuts not to call it quits after 25 years. As to the first part of the question, my situation was a bit unique. My wife and I had fallen in love with the southwestern US as a result of our vacations, and some family members living there. The mild winters also rang our bell, because Winter in Michigan sucks, and it lasts for six months. I had many friends and contacts in Las Vegas, so from about 1970 on we knew that we would be leaving Detroit as soon as my 25 were in. My last working day in the DPD was July 13, 1984, and at 4:00 a.m. on July 14, the U-Haul and our car pulled out of Rosedale Park for the last time. Ended up with a position as Security Director of a local hospital and enjoyed my 2nd career greatly before retiring for good in 2001. Lengthy answer, but you asked! -- Ray in Las Vegas, home of O.J.Simpson | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1392 Registered: 07-2004 |
"I am writing a paper about residency requirements. I know I could look in the actual books and other primary sources that relate to the city code, but I was hoping some people could throw some information out there, some interesting hearsay, opinions, or other second-hand information. So, could, like, everybody talk out of their ass about this, whether they're qualified to or not?" Christ, am I glad I never became a teacher. | ||
Granmontrules Member Username: Granmontrules Post Number: 167 Registered: 01-2007 |
My wife works for the City. We live in the City and we BOTH support residency requirements for employees. We had a number of cops and fire personnel in our area, after residency at least 75% of them left the City. As far as not "really" being here but having fake addresses we didn't see that - they actually lived here. I say bring it back. It will be VERY popular with Detroiters. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 158 Registered: 07-2007 |
they left for a reason | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 384 Registered: 08-2007 |
Andylinn, Do you mean you're seeking anecdotal or empirical support for the scholarly research YOU should be conducting? For starters, very few née any, scholarly article links can be shared; access is via paid subscription databases through your *college* library. If you're really lost try, www.mel.org, or better yet, walk, no run, to a librarian. As a teacher, I'm near speechless... | ||
Japes Member Username: Japes Post Number: 30 Registered: 02-2007 |
While there are some upsides. The problem is that when employees live in the city you end up with a political movement that can dictate polices that are beneficial to the employee, and not what is in the best interest of the city, it allows employees to pick their own bosses. While this may not be as big of an issue in Detroit it can be in smaller cities where voter turn out is small. Back in the '80 River Rouge was in contract negotiations with one of its unions and for giving up the residence requirement in the contract the city didn't have to give a pay increase for the life of the contract. | ||
Craig Member Username: Craig Post Number: 367 Registered: 02-2007 |
The residency requirement was a tragedy. Workers who were too deep into a career to relocate and start anew were trapped in a City that was increasingly unfriendly and unlivable. An irony that was not lost was the inability of suburban departments to require residency of their applicants & hires while a strict standard was applied to Detroit. Rank and file City workers could not easily afford nice neighborhoods like Rosedale (Ray - how did you do it? Sgt.'s pay and a working spouse?), and the regular-guy hoods were awful... maybe good for a thrill like driving through and snapping shots of "fabulous ruins," but awful for living and raising a family. One last thought: picture yourself sitting down to dinner after a day in the scout car and then someone banging frantically at the side door. "Mr. Craig's Grandpa, Mr. Craig's Grandpa! Someone's breaking into the garage down the street." Happened all of the time. Talk about not being able to leave your work at the office... | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 331 Registered: 12-2006 |
All I know about residency is that from march of 1982 to 1999 my dad and a fellow Detroit firefighter "lived" in an apartment on the west side of the city. There were at least 4 other apartments in the complex that had the same setup. Once a week my dad and I would drive down to pick up his mail. The best part about the apartment were the furnishings. There was one leather chair with so many rips and tears in it that you could barely tell it was leather, a matching couch and a 17 inch black and white TV. In the bedroom there were two ancient looking twin beds and in the kitchen there was a fridge which probably had the same 6 pack of beer for about 6 years and there were 4 glasses and no plates in the cupboards. There literally was no food in the house. The only nights my dad actually spent there were in the winter when a storm was coming in and he had to work the next morning. I hated these nights because that meant I had to shovel the driveway by myself (I think that's the real reason he would spend the night in the city). | ||
Ray1936 Member Username: Ray1936 Post Number: 1942 Registered: 01-2005 |
"Rank and file City workers could not easily afford nice neighborhoods like Rosedale (Ray - how did you do it? Sgt.'s pay and a working spouse?)" You nailed it, Craig, with the additional bonus of a dear friend in real estate who knew of a super bargain price. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5362 Registered: 08-2004 |
There were plenty of Policemen and Firemen who lived in East English Village and Cornerstone Villiage(Balduck Park area) on the far east side. They could afford some very nice houses in those areas. But most have since moved away. | ||
Messykitty Member Username: Messykitty Post Number: 207 Registered: 03-2006 |
Even after reading this entire thread, I'm still puzzled that Portland is lumped in with Chicago and New York in the initial post. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 537 Registered: 04-2006 |
to respond to accusations that I am not doing research of my own here, i am. I am reading academic reports, looking at statistics, and reading articles. I am looking to use this thread as supplemental to improve - NOT MAKE - my paper. don't worry. I didn't go through four years of U-M undergrad to come out thinking I could have a paper written on forum talk. I just really enjoy the opinions and thoughts expressed here, and have already read some comments and heard from people in my email that will be helpful to more colorfully illustrate the points that I make in my paper. - andy |
