 
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4044
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 1:57 pm: |    |
Cambrain: Over 100,000 Michiganders will lose their jobs this year--if not, already. Just why should they or others be overly concerned about your or some state employee's job? Are you implying that you're better or worth more than them or any others?
If the automakers can your ass, it's probably because they're trying to remain in business longer. The only means to sustainably do that is to make money and cut unnecessarily high co$t$. It's not about YOU!
(Message edited by LivernoisYard on September 24, 2007) |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1638
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:02 pm: | |
Right, but there millions of me's and if we have no job security and boss's who are always measuring our work value against an asian's how can you call that good for our economy? |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10225
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:03 pm: | |
And there are 10s of millions of 'not you' |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1639
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:07 pm: | |
Right! Problem is you haven't a clue who I am or what I'm about, so don't strain your brain trying to figure it out JT1. |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10226
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:14 pm: | |
I was talking about the unionized vs. non-unionized positions. You stated that there are 'millions of me' which seemed to imply UAW.
If I am straining my brain it is because what you are writing makes little sense if you aren't referring to 'millions of you' as UAW or unionized workers. |
Spartacus
Member
Username: Spartacus
Post Number: 231
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:15 pm: | |
Cambrian:
I think after reading over a thousand of your half-baked posts we have a really good idea of "what you're about." |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4046
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:18 pm: | |
UAW membership is getting so low that the UAW is actively recruiting RAs and TAs on US college and university campuses. Will nurses be next? |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2706
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:20 pm: | |
"Detroit's automakers lost a collective $15 billion last year, and all say they need labor cost parity with their Asian competitors in order to turn consistent profits. GM said it pays its workers $73.26 per hour in wages, pension and health care benefits, while Toyota Motor Corp. pays an estimated $48 per hour, according to an estimate from U.S. automakers. Retiree health costs are a large part of that gap."
Explain to me how this problem is solved without UAW concessions, those who are siding with the unions. |
Dougw
Member
Username: Dougw
Post Number: 1906
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:23 pm: | |
Agreed with Jt1/Profscott & others. The whole notion of "job security" as a right is unsustainable. The UAW was gaining my respect as it looked like it would be agreeing to take over health care from GM, which is ultimately the right thing to do long-term for both them and GM. But the whole shifting of justification for a strike to "job security" is pretty disgusting. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 1640
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:33 pm: | |
Yep sparty and I know what you're about too. I'm sure you're a good fella, but I don't think anyone could be more uninformed.
John it wasn't the UAW that got GM where it is now, it was the irresponsible mgt. Yeah toyota doesn't have a bunch of retirees yet. GM does, so what's the solution? Mgt is coming to the table with threats and they aren't giving up anything. Most of these retirees where people GM cut loose early in attempt to get people off the payrolls, so the retiree problem is largely caused by them. This desire to get lean as toyota was a foolish move. They got rid of too much talent and gave up a serious competitive advantage. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2708
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:36 pm: | |
So you've identified what you believe the problem is, and who caused it. Now what? |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 10227
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:36 pm: | |
quote:John it wasn't the UAW that got GM where it is now, it was the irresponsible mgt.
Anyone that wants to assign blame entirely to one side shows howw biased they are. Both sides have made many mistakes and continue to do so. |
River_rat
Member
Username: River_rat
Post Number: 300
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:43 pm: | |
You hear that noise? It is the sound of nails being driven into the coffin of the Michigan economy. The next sound will be the dirt falling on top the coffin.
It is unbelievable that a strike has started. Scratch that. This is Michigan. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 786
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:46 pm: | |
GM loses money on every small car it sells. This is caused by many things, but one of the things is the difference between GM's overall labor costs and those of the transplants. How they and the UAW work that out will determine, to a great extent, whether there is any domestic-owned auto industry building cars in the United States anymore. My guess would be, we're at the tail end of that era. It quickens the end for the two sides to be so furiously working to destroy themselves. |
Belleislerunner
Member
Username: Belleislerunner
Post Number: 362
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 2:59 pm: | |
"Detroit's automakers lost a collective $15 billion last year. GM said it pays its workers $73.26 per hour in wages, pension and health care benefits, while Toyota Motor Corp. pays an estimated $48 per hour, according to an estimate from U.S. automakers. Retiree health costs are a large part of that gap."
"Explain to me how this problem is solved without UAW concessions, those who are siding with the unions."
Isn't the answer just to raise the price of cars? Then we wouldn't be in this situation.
Signed,
Michigan legislature. |
Cincinnati_kid
Member
Username: Cincinnati_kid
Post Number: 13
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 4:30 pm: | |
It's funny nobody is mentioning the huge amounts of income being taken in by the upper management of the "Detroit 3" Whether there is a strike or not, they won't have to worry about where their next paycheck is coming from. it's totally unacceptable that these guys that push the buttons ( the wrong ones I might add) get these outrageous salaries, and expect the rank and file to live off peanuts. It's managements fault they are in the position they are in from bad decision making, but they give themselves a hefty raise for it. Something is wrong with this picture. Then I'm hearing that GM wants to change the work rules at most of the plants, and eliminate jobs that they say don't directly impact the assembling of a car, such as truck driving, sanitation etc... they would rather farm those jobs out to someone making 10-12 dollars a hr. While the big cheeses bring home major bank. Unbelievable.
(Message edited by cincinnati_kid on September 24, 2007)
(Message edited by cincinnati_kid on September 24, 2007) |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 1333
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 4:45 pm: | |
Cincinnati_kid, the "management salaries" subject is a red herring. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4322
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 4:47 pm: | |
What would it take for the UAW to be expelled and dissolved?? It is becoming clear that a level playing field with the competition cannot be had while the unions exist. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 788
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 4:48 pm: | |
I don't know, I think there's a huge issue in America regarding corporate executive compensation overall. Nowhere on Earth do so many people get paid so much to fail so abysmally.
Now, having said that, if you cut every executive's salary by 90% right now, GM is still structurally unprofitable, so that's not enough.
To sum it up: Cincinnati_kid is right, but it doesn't matter. |
Belleislerunner
Member
Username: Belleislerunner
Post Number: 363
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 4:55 pm: | |
Please, CEO's do more work for their salary than baseball players do. The grass is always greener... |
Wash_man
Member
Username: Wash_man
Post Number: 474
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 5:12 pm: | |
"It's funny nobody is mentioning the huge amounts of income being taken in by the upper management of the "Detroit 3" Whether there is a strike or not, they won't have to worry about where their next paycheck is coming from. it's totally unacceptable that these guys that push the buttons ( the wrong ones I might add) get these outrageous salaries, and expect the rank and file to live off peanuts."
And Ron Gettlefinger isn't getting paid during the strike? NOT |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 1334
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 5:14 pm: | |
quote:To sum it up: Cincinnati_kid is right, but it doesn't matter.
Which is the definition of a red herring. 
quote:A red herring is a metaphor for a diversion or distraction from an original objective. An example can be found in academic examinations, particularly in mathematics and physical sciences. In some questions, information may be provided which is not necessary to solve the given problem. The presence of extraneous data often causes those taking the exam to spend too much time on the question, reducing the time given to other problems and potentially lowering the resulting score. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 789
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 5:15 pm: | |
Belle,
I know CEOs do more work than baseball players. But if a baseball player has a bad year or two, he is fired and goes away. A CEO can earn millions while driving a company into the ground and squandering shareholder wealth. That was my point. |
Johnlodge
Member
Username: Johnlodge
Post Number: 2725
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 5:17 pm: | |
Also, you get to hit a baseball player with a 95mph fast ball once in awhile. Unfortunately, you can't do that with CEO's. |
Alec
Member
Username: Alec
Post Number: 3
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 6:34 pm: | |
Ccbatson-
The Unions fought for the lifestyle that many of us lead and expect today, whether we're in the manufacturing sector, or not.
Some acknowledgement is necessary. |
Yeti
Member
Username: Yeti
Post Number: 2
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 6:38 pm: | |
Can someone drop me a high-level overview of what plants have walked out? Is it EVERY single plant, just the assembly plants, the guys that make wheels?
Also, how long before this starts to affect suppliers and distributers? |
Wash_man
Member
Username: Wash_man
Post Number: 475
Registered: 05-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 7:04 pm: | |
"Nationwide" means that all GM plants are on strike. The impact on suppliers is felt immediately, thanks to Just-in-Time shipments. (JIT). My sister works for a supplier. The people in her plant that produce GM products were sent home today and don't know when they will come back. This trickle down doesn't make the news and these people earn about one-third what the GM people earn. |
Dabirch
Member
Username: Dabirch
Post Number: 2411
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 7:15 pm: | |
quote:Ccbatson-
The Unions fought for the lifestyle that many of us lead and expect today, whether we're in the manufacturing sector, or not.
Some acknowledgement is necessary.
Agreed and acknowledged.
However, the union also brought about the belief that an unskilled laborer could afford a house and a vacation home, and top shelf medical benefits and full pensions -- leading to multiple generations of people not seeing the need for an education.
This has helped exacerbate the problem of what is happening to workers when high paying jobs go away.
Some acknowledgement is necessary. |
Titancub
Member
Username: Titancub
Post Number: 80
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 7:23 pm: | |
I hate seeing this happen as its just another sign of whats wrong with Michigan and why we amazingly STILL haven't hit rock bottom. Throw in the horrendous 'leadership' in the state on the budget issue and its a tragedy to all of Michigan.
Who wants to come open a business or invest in a state with all these damned problems going on?••• |
Kjwick
Member
Username: Kjwick
Post Number: 43
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 24, 2007 - 7:56 pm: | |
are there non-unionized employees in gm's manufacturing plants? i know some of the tier1 suppliers have both unionized and non-unionized plants....even within the city of detroit.
what factors are preventing a similar situation as the nwa mechanics strike? obviously there are many more auto workers than airplane mechanics. |