  Postbop Member Username: Postbop Post Number: 9 Registered: 09-2007 |
Has anyone heard what has happened with the case against Ellen Bowen, the choir director at GPS High School? Last I heard, she was getting the book thrown at her for her road rage against a student in her choir. If any Grosse Pointers have heard anything, please post. | ||
Kimistree Member Username: Kimistree Post Number: 94 Registered: 01-2004 |
I did a search in the Grosse Pointe News, it says that she is suspended until Oct 1., and that she is waiting to hear from the State department of Education as to whether she will retain her teaching certificate, or have it suspended or revoked. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1783 Registered: 12-2005 |
you're flatting! you're flatting! | ||
Harpernottingham Member Username: Harpernottingham Post Number: 273 Registered: 04-2006 |
The pictures I've seen of her ... well, is it me or does she look like a he? | ||
Belleislerunner Member Username: Belleislerunner Post Number: 364 Registered: 12-2003 |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070724/NEW S02/707240317&imw=Y It's a little over a month old but don't think the State has issued a ruling since then. | ||
Lfrac88 Member Username: Lfrac88 Post Number: 12 Registered: 07-2007 |
I unfortunately had to play under her for West Side Story in the pit. It was possibly one of the most horrifying job's I have ever done: besides all of the musical etiquette rules she broke, she yelled at people for pointless reasons, and made pretty terrifying threats to her students. The worst incident that I was witness to however, was when, while we were rehearsing bows, she yelled at some of the girls on stage for not lifting up their skirts high enough- saying that they looked "like a bunch of dykes". At first me, and the other hired musicians thought that she was joking, but then quickly realized, by the lack of laughter from her and the students, that she was completely serious. I could go on with stories I have heard from one of my friends who was in a choir camp with her, but since they aren't my experiences, I wont elaborate. | ||
Soomka1 Member Username: Soomka1 Post Number: 43 Registered: 02-2007 |
She looks like a psycho. The parents must be so concerned with their kids making the cut that they allow this lady to get away with terrible behavior. If a little league coach acted like that, they would put him in jail. I don't know what it is about music teachers, but we had one who had been at the school for over 20 years and she lost her job when I was in fourth grade. She grabbed the biggest kid in my class for fooling around, picked him up and shoved him against the chalkboard so hard that it broke. | ||
Conman Member Username: Conman Post Number: 38 Registered: 06-2006 |
Throwing things at her students? Spreading rumors that a certain student is pregnant? The pyscho needs help. | ||
Russell Member Username: Russell Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2003 |
Lfrac88 - that sounds like her typical behavior. I was glad when my child quit her choir. She has no class (no pun intended.) The road rage was against a former South student that I don't believe was ever in her choir. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 910 Registered: 01-2005 |
I went to one of her productions recently and was put off by the excesses and the sexuality. High school girls in fishnets straddling chairs and strutting. Overall production way over the top. Have to ask what becomes of her prodigees that GPS spend so lavishly on? Famous young musical stars from the same musical genres from the region are Jack White and Celia Keenan-Bolger - both products of Detroit Public Schools. I just thought, when I was there, that the young people would come out of that sort of tub of butter and be surprised that they and their talents would be little valued by the big world. | ||
Kimistree Member Username: Kimistree Post Number: 95 Registered: 01-2004 |
Oh... it wasn't road rage against a student in her choir, it was road rage against a student who went to Grosse Pointe South and recognized her. From the articles I have read about this it's 50/50 for and against her. She had disciplinary taken against her concerning students before, so all that is being weighed in the final decision about her fate. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1784 Registered: 12-2005 |
I can't condone any physical or emotional abuse by any educator (or anyone else for that matter), but I can tell you that getting a large group of individuals together to make truly good (technically difficult, properly emotional) music is one of the absolutely difficult triumphs of human endeavor. Ever been in a garage band? You know how difficult it is to get four people to do the same thing at the same time? Imagine trying to get 40 or 60 kids together. The people who lead some of the best work aren't nice guys. They have the task of getting all of those minds focused on the same thing, to follow the lead of the conductor to a tee. Many a symphonic or choral conductor has been both feared and respected for what they bring out of a group of people. It does sound like she needs to take some meds and anger management. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 3708 Registered: 02-2005 |
I'm with 56packman. The work the GPS choir has done over the years is too great to just let her disappear w/o giving her a chance. They sang in St. Peter in Rome in 2004! | ||
Jazzstage Member Username: Jazzstage Post Number: 117 Registered: 08-2007 |
I taught at St. Paul's on the lake and our students went to South. People used to rave about her. Her programs were supposed to be out of sight but her expectations were also. Grosse Pointe is a community where these types of expectations are valued and supported. You won't find that in many places. The experience those kids are given are priceless but I often question how hard certain people push their kids. Most of the kids I taught were busy almost every night with activities. I don't know how they had the chance to be kids. Nevertheless, the language Lfrac88 alleges is certainly grounds for some sort of disciplinary action. On the other hand, creative people are obviously required for these jobs. Musicians and other artists filter info far different than most others and what comes out of their mouth often does cause trouble. People usually understand some zaniness as the consequence of a good creative program. Offensive language is another story. Can't comment on the road rage though. | ||
Cjdb16 Member Username: Cjdb16 Post Number: 167 Registered: 11-2003 |
FYI southwestmap Celeia-Keenan Bolger studied privately with Ellen Bowen while a student in DPS and is a supporter of hers. visit ellenbowen.com | ||
Bongman Member Username: Bongman Post Number: 1511 Registered: 12-2003 |
I have worked with this individual extensively in the past. She is absolutely nuts. The road rage incidents have been going on for years, including one police stop where she was clocked going 95 mph with 8 students in the vehicle. This is far from her first incident. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 911 Registered: 01-2005 |
Bongman: I know that they know each other because Bowan took her students to New York and they went backstage to talk with Keenan-Bolger. But - perhaps that's just because of the Detroit artist connection. Wouldn't then be hard to get Keenan-Bolger to put her name on a list. She's out of town and probably not too connected with the situation. More interested in the fact that Keenan-Bolger studied with Bowan - would be more in keeping with her parent's values for her to study under someone in Detroit. And she left town as a very young woman, so her time here was in her parent's home. What is your source for the assertion that Keenan-Bolger was a student of Bowan's? Not saying it didn't happen - but just questioning. Also, she didn't mention the connection in the back-stage visit. | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4624 Registered: 10-2003 |
As a GP South alum I can tell you the Ellen Bowen stories are all true. She's like the Bobby Knight of high school choir only more violent. Her behavior was beyond the pale a decade ago but she had her allies with the GP South Mothers Club mafia that really set policy on Fisher Road. My only personal interaction with Bowen took place when I was a sophomore. I was leaving gym class and stopped in the hall because someone called out my name from behind me. I turned my head and POW. Ellen Bowen plowed over me running down the hall though at first I had no idea who did it. My initial reaction was visceral: "what the fuck asshole?" I just assumed it was another student. Spent the better part of that afternoon in detention because I swore at a teacher who assaulted me. I didn't think of it as assault at the time but that's really what it was. And Harpernottingham let's just say she's a big Larry David fan. Huge. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 2815 Registered: 06-2004 |
Why did GP ever give her tenure? We had a bad band directors years ago when I was at Ferndale, and they denied her tenure - she was gone after about three years. | ||
Cjdb16 Member Username: Cjdb16 Post Number: 168 Registered: 11-2003 |
Celia and I have been friends for many years. We met while we were both students of Ellen Bowen. Here is what Celia has to say (taken from ellenbowen.com) Celia Keenan Bolger, Broadway Singer/Actress and 2005 Tony Award Nominee for Best Featured Actress in a Musical: “Ellen was the first voice teacher I ever had and she was instrumental in my decision to pursue a career in the arts. As a teacher, she was the perfect combination of tough and supportive. She prepared me for the harsh realities of a life as an actor/singer while instilling the confidence I needed to become a successful performer. I am so grateful to know her and say she was my teacher." | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 913 Registered: 01-2005 |
Okay, I was wrong! Mea culpa. If Keenan-Bolger so approves, I back off. | ||
Lfrac88 Member Username: Lfrac88 Post Number: 13 Registered: 07-2007 |
Trust me, I know from personal experience that arts education (especially music) takes talent, energy, and discipline- but obviously some people, like Bowen, take it too far. It would be interesting to know how many talented individuals she scared away with her actions, and how much better her programs might have been. Obviously the fear she instilled in her students brought out talent, but then again I know that there are far better methods for bringing out the best in students. I also have to wonder how many students ended up resenting music after their time with her- I don't think I would have gone into music as a career if it hadn't been for teachers who both drove me to succeed and were compassionate enough to connect with me personally. | ||
Postbop Member Username: Postbop Post Number: 11 Registered: 09-2007 |
My experience with Ellen concerns getting hired by her while in music school at Wayne State. I was 22 and had been out of high school for 4 years but was being paid to pretend that I was a high school instrumentalist so she could have a 'ringer' band to take to Disneyworld for a show-choir competition. Me and a couple colleagues were paid very well to go and represent Grosse Pointe South. It was funny and pitiful at the same time because my 23 year old friend won the award for best high school soloist. It's too bad a high school kid didn't win it. We were sworn to secrecy, but I feel no allegiance to Ellen and don't care for her teaching style. I know a lot of 'creative' people who don't cheat, intimidate and abuse students, and involve themselves in illegal activities that are life-threatning to others. I hope they don't let her anywhere near a classroom again. | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 177 Registered: 10-2005 |
Post- I don't know Ellen Bowen or if what you said is even true, but, your moral outrage rings a bit hollow as apparently your integrity comes cheap. I'm curious as to how much you got paid to screw over some highschool kids. You may know "creative" people who do not cheat, however, you clearly can not count yourself among them. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1048 Registered: 10-2003 |
I know Ellen. I have relatives that have all been in her productions including a daughter that did the Show Choir summer program. She is excellent. I had three of her predecessors when I was at South, of which only Dietrich came close to her caliber (Recinto(SP) was before my time). Whoever Postbop is, you have 0 credibility. Good luck in your liable suit. | ||
Rb336 Member Username: Rb336 Post Number: 2601 Registered: 02-2007 |
she looks like a love child of andy warhol and les nessman (wkrp) | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4630 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: By that logic if Steve Alford says Bobby Knight was a good basketball coach then it must be ok that he choked a student or intimated that he was going to bullwhip Calbert Chaney. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 915 Registered: 01-2005 |
I didn't say that suddenly approve of the sexuality and "spoiled children" aspect of her showmanship (which GPS parents seem not to notice so blinded are they by their Ellen) I just said that I back off from my questioning of a Keenan-Bolger-Bowen relationship. I knew her mother and thought it unlikely. I was wrong about that. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5421 Registered: 08-2004 |
I can't believe what I'm reading here... just because she's a very gifted and talented woman she should be shown leniency and have her reckless behavior tolerated??? Does that mean that if she were only a mediocre teacher, she should have been tossed out on her ears? Some of you folks sound as appologetic as all the bigwigs that came to billionaire Al Taubman's defense when he got jail time for the Sotheby's fiasco with Christie's. If she's guilty, then she should be punished. I'm sorry, but there's NO EXCUSE for the whims of the "artistic temperment". Talk about double standards... | ||
Crystal Member Username: Crystal Post Number: 35 Registered: 05-2007 |
I also can't believe what I am reading here. The same thing happened in my town with its HS marching band director. He was abusive to average students, but the top students were treated well. He was a driven and gifted musician, but not a good teacher. He was eventually forced out. This same sad scenario happens every day with athletic coaches and teachers. People have to speak up. There is no excuse for the GP teacher's behavior. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1054 Registered: 10-2003 |
Then have your kids take another ELECTIVE. The reality is that people who are whining about this the most don't have kids in her class or programs. The people who do, who see the fabulous work that she has done with their kids, are completely behind her. That is why, if she is still there when my kids are at The High, they will be in her class if they wish to be. and people who couldn't figure out how to excel at anything will continue to complain about teachers like her that push to get the best from their students. If we wanted dullards who weren't going to push our kids, we would put them in another school. | ||
Tkshreve Member Username: Tkshreve Post Number: 180 Registered: 07-2006 |
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070927/U PDATE/709270480/1409/METRO She was a high school monster. The same way you people have double standards defending her, she treated students with double standards. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1057 Registered: 10-2003 |
Do you have personal experience TK or are you just reading the paper? | ||
Soomka1 Member Username: Soomka1 Post Number: 47 Registered: 02-2007 |
Irish, since you are from that area, do you remember the drama teacher at North back in the late 70's? One of the boys is his class got in an accident driving the teachers car on a Saturday night, all messed up on prescription pills. This teacher was nothing special, but the school district and the parents made sure to keep it quiet and the guy didn't lose his job. | ||
Swimmaven Member Username: Swimmaven Post Number: 8 Registered: 05-2007 |
Wonder if she has Aspergers Syndrome. | ||
Postbop Member Username: Postbop Post Number: 12 Registered: 09-2007 |
Higgs1634: Ms. Bowen neglected to tell us that we were being counted as high school students when we were contracted for the gig. I think, therefore, it was HER integrity that came cheap; after all, I'm not the convict. She should have told us what she had in mind. I probably would've turned the gig down; it didn't pay that well anyway. Your anger is understandable, just misfocused. Believe what you want- I don't have to prove anything you. I read all of these posts and mine seems tame in comparison. IrishMafia: "Whoever Postbop is, you have 0 credibility. Good luck in your liable suit." Your posts will have 0 credibility to me or others when you misuse key words. Liable is an adjective. You're using it as a noun; maybe you mean libel. Anyway, I'm not here to pick fights with you or anyone else- I don't know if she's a good teacher or not; I'm not qualified to judge. I just worked with her in a professional situation. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1058 Registered: 10-2003 |
Soomka, I didn't know him. I was at South where, I believe Kefgen, was doing the Pointe Players. We had our own share of stepping over the line. | ||
Texorama Member Username: Texorama Post Number: 63 Registered: 12-2006 |
< < Choir teacher appeals Controversial Pointes instructor fights road rage conviction > > http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070928/METRO 01/709280363 | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 184 Registered: 10-2005 |
quote: Still trying to figure out how you justify your complicity in the scam. Whether or not you knew about it before hand (which strains credulity), you quite obviously knew once you were there that you were being paid to screw over highschool kids. You are an adult, you owed it to those kids to stand up to Ellen Bowen and walk. Especially when one of you won an award. You chose to play along, you can't blame Bowen for that. quote: quote: Uh, which is it? I'm not angry at all. There are few things on this earth I could care less about than Ellen Bowen or the South Choir. I went to South, I didn't know her personally and wasn't involved in music. I don't care if she goes to jail, or never teaches again, or gets off scot free. However, she obviously wronged you somehow and you have an axe to grid. Fine. Knock yourself out. Revel in the schadenfreude. Just don't try to claim some sort of moral superiority here. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5424 Registered: 08-2004 |
What's funny about all this is that even the now late Leona Helmsley, the "Queen of Mean", had folks who defended and supported her! I guess a troubled 22 year disciplinary history mean nothing to some folks. Postbop, welcome to the forum and to its' many sceptics. I don't see you gaining anything by lying to the forum, so I don't discount your story. There are folks (and parents) in this world that are so competitive that they'll do anything to get ahead, even cheat if they have to. This woman seems obsessive enough to do even that. | ||
Fjw718 Member Username: Fjw718 Post Number: 117 Registered: 11-2005 |
http://gpsouthchoir.org/who_we _are/meet_the_director.htm | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1059 Registered: 10-2003 |
Higgs, The reason that PostBop's assertions don't seem to add up are, most likely, that they didn't happen. This thread was started by this "new forumer" who was looking for an avenue to slam Bowen. He/she/it is making outrageous assertions that have never been brought forward by real people that aren't anonymously posting on a forum that they suddenly appeared on. | ||
Postbop Member Username: Postbop Post Number: 14 Registered: 09-2007 |
Higgs1634: To clarify: As a 22 year old college student, the gig paid a lot; in comparison, it was better than working at the campus parking garage for $4 an hour. It did not pay that well after learning what I had to do to earn that money. In retrospect, I wouldn't taken the gig, but hindsight is 20/20. | ||
Tkshreve Member Username: Tkshreve Post Number: 182 Registered: 07-2006 |
Do you have personal experience TK or are you just reading the paper? When i went to South I had several classes within the music department. While i never dabbled in Choirgeeking, I did have a direct class with Bowen, two indirect classes with her and two classes with Mr. Miller, who had a long knock-down drag out battle with Bowen over the years. My understanding and memory of that debacle consists of Bowen wanting the majority of resources for her own use and what ever trickled through could then be used by other teachers in the music department. Also, Mr. Miller ended up quitting/losing his job due to her brash and selfish attitude. She created a very aggressive and competitive environment within the music department at school. She was also very forward and too self encompassed to care about other things happening in the school. Her smug attitude did not make her a get-to-know-me person. Instead and in place of that, many of the students painted quite a negative picture of her during my student "tenure" at South. | ||
Raptor56 Member Username: Raptor56 Post Number: 119 Registered: 05-2007 |
Harpernottingham: Judging by that GP News photo, I agree. 100% man dyke. | ||
Hornist9 Member Username: Hornist9 Post Number: 47 Registered: 05-2005 |
I did a Messiah (Mozart edition) almost 25 years ago with Ellen. I was playing Horn in the Lake St. Clair Symphony Orchestra and Ellen was directing the choirs at Macomb County Community College. At that time, the LSCSO was directed by Wayne State Grad Michael Krajewksi, who was the Assistant Director of the Detroit Symphony Orchestra (Mike is now one of the country's finest Pops conductors). The orchestra under Mike had done two performances of this particular Messiah the weekend before and they were very well performed. When we showed up on Monday at Macomb for rehearsal, Ellen insisted on directing. She took an orchestra that had done a masterful job of performing a masterwork, and by the rehearsal break had totally fucked up everything Krajewski had prepared. The orchestra at that time had 4 retired members of the DSO string section (they were playing as a favor to Mike). At the break, every one of those guys put their instruments in their cases and very disgustedly left. I was the Orchestra's stage manager, so I was talking to the guys to get them to finish, but to no avail. Needless to say the second half of the rehearsal was just as bad! When I showed up on Friday evening for the Performance and dreading the thought of performing with that woman, I saw Mike off stage, and remarked to him that I wished to hell he was conducting, not Ellen. He said "Relax, Walt, I am". Seems as if one of the members of the Symphony Board was also a trustee of the Macomb Community College and a lot of hell was raised by Mike and the playing members of the Symphony board about her lack of conducting skills. Honest to God, that's a true story. The performance went off without a hitch. | ||
Thecarl Member Username: Thecarl Post Number: 1043 Registered: 04-2005 |
quote: - jack handey | ||
Edgar_rhode Member Username: Edgar_rhode Post Number: 1 Registered: 09-2007 |
this was in my in box this afternoon :: ----- Original Message ----- From: Ellen Bowen To: gpsouthchoir Sent: Thursday, September 27, 2007 5:18 PM Subject: Ellen Bowen The news media is so misleading and has downright lies throughout their articles. I will be returning to South on Monday, October 1st and am very anxious to be back in the classroom. There was NO disciplinary action taken by the state. I have my teacher's license and everything is in place. Of course you all know this had nothing to do with any student. Thank you. Ellen J. Bowen | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 945 Registered: 11-2006 |
Thecarl, Thanks for the laugh. Those Jack Handy bits crack me up! | ||
Promusic Member Username: Promusic Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2007 |
I worked at South in the revolving door position as an accompanist and I ran into many instances of musical incompetence. She would often be late to class (if she ever showed up at all), come bursting through the door in a flurry of yelling, and try to 'teach' her students to sing pieces that usually involved the whole group sounding like they were yelling the music. Very heavy-handed and hammer-like approach to 'music-making'. She also often told kids, parents, and other musicians erroneous musical facts and information about pieces we would work on. My favorite was her insistence that Palestrina was a priest. Try as I may to steer her clear of this assertion, I would usually get yelled at, told what an awful musician I was, and how I obviously didn't know as much as her, despite the fact that one of my major research papers in college was the effect of Palestrina's two marriages on his compositional style. During pit shows, she would often brag about how she hired the 'best bassist' or the 'best drummer' in the whole Metro Detroit area. This was often a mistake on her part because these particular pros would come in, cover admirably for her lack of conducting skills, refuse to work with her again because of her lack of professional work ethic, and then would warn their other top-notch musician friends not to play for her. I'm not surprised this happened at all. She never had any self-control while I was there. People trying to defend her craziness by saying she is some kind of tortured genius don't really understand that her grossly unprofessional behavior is a result of her trying to cover up her inadequacies as a musician and educator. If she talks loud enough and pushes you around enough, she hopes you won't be able to see through her crap. | ||
Etxray Member Username: Etxray Post Number: 6 Registered: 01-2006 |
There is a great editorial in the GPN yesterday basically comparing her to a typical high school bully, who pouts and cries if she does not get her way. If SPS has a 0 tolerance on Bullies how could they put up with this. One question I have, what would happen if a student threw a stapler at her? The Grosse Pointe School board has no balls, and better watch out. Next time something like this happens (and it will)the law suits will be flying. I hope she is gone before my kids get there. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 1064 Registered: 10-2003 |
Etxray, You may get your wish. and South may get another piss poor director again (like 2 of the directors prior to Bowen)... and your kid will have that as their experience. and when your kid comes home and whines about how bad that director is, you can tell them that you helped bring South back to that level of mediocrity. Barf! | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 490 Registered: 08-2006 |
Because the only choice available is between abusive ass-hats with high standards versus civil mediocrity. | ||
Promusic Member Username: Promusic Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2007 |
"Because the only choice available is between abusive ass-hats with high standards versus civil mediocrity." I must wholly disagree with this assertion. One can maintain a disciplined, highly musical program without resorting to psychological mind games and serious levels of covering one's own ass for their shortcomings. The only reason people seem to think that Ellen Bowen is a good educator or musician is because she tells them she is. Her results are the work of other people around her for which she takes all the credit. That is her only mark of genius. Surrounding herself with people who make her look good. I suppose that is a good quality of leadership, even if it is all smoke and mirrors. However, you will find MANY musicians working today who do not have to steamroll everyone around them in order to get desired results. That is the mark of true genius. Attaining high distinction in your field and still retaining qualities that inspire others to do their best without having to insult, demean, attack, or ultimately, destroy. There are many high quality directors who are nice people and are still able to get things done without playing the 'ass-hat' card. To claim that one has to be an over-the-top, demeaning (translated as "demanding" by her supporters) jerk in order to be a good musician and leader is ridiculous and severely limiting. (Message edited by ProMusic on October 05, 2007) | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 263 Registered: 07-2007 |
well maybe this is a good lesson is getting thick skin at real world experience. Too many kids are pussified by tell me what you want to hear. | ||
Jazzstage Member Username: Jazzstage Post Number: 129 Registered: 08-2007 |
Hornist 9, You aren't Walt Szymanski are you? | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 492 Registered: 08-2006 |
quote: Um...so do I. | ||
Hornist9 Member Username: Hornist9 Post Number: 48 Registered: 05-2005 |
Jazzstage, Nope, I'm Walt Lewis |
