 
Jtw
Member
Username: Jtw
Post Number: 168
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 9:06 am: |    |
just thought i'd share that today i took the bus to work for the first time, since my car is in the shop. route 385, to be exact. nice driver and pleasant people on board.
there were only 5 other riders - with stops all over the place and for only $1.50, it's too bad there isn't better ridership. (i thought it would be much more crowded at a 'peak' time). |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 6579
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 9:08 am: | |
Yes Jtw,
Riding on the SMART ot D-DOT bus saves money on driving your car and reduce CO2 levels in the atmosphere. Public Transit is the best. |
Rjk
Member
Username: Rjk
Post Number: 874
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 9:19 am: | |
"with stops all over the place..."
I was on John R the other day and noticed that there were two SMART stops that were half a block apart. For me to take a bus they have to find a way to cut down on the drive time. It just takes too long to get to where I want to go. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4057
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 9:28 am: | |
Regardless of how close the bus stops are, the buses don't stop at any of them unless somebody is getting on or off. So, that point may not matter much. Most stops have no passengers--either on or off. |
Swingline
Member
Username: Swingline
Post Number: 903
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 10:30 am: | |
I have found SMART service to almost always operate on time. The buses are clean and drivers helpful. The problems with the service are almost all structural. The most frequent complaint is that the service is slow. But the service is slow because the routes are so long. And the length of the routes is dictated by our sprawling region. Essentially, in many instances, SMART is using buses on the kinds of routes that other regions handle with light rail or even heavy rail. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 791
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 10:38 am: | |
Welcome aboard Jtw! The 385 is not a particularly busy route. Ride the 450 or the 560 in the evening if you like to have lots of company.
The whole problem with SMART is lack of money, nothing more. The system is pretty well managed, they plan the routes pretty carefully, but they can only do as much as their budget allows, and the $3.15 diesel isn't helping any.
LY has it exactly correct: all stops on every bus are flag-stop only. If nobody asks to stop, the bus doesn't stop. So you could put the stops as close together or far apart as you like and it would make very little difference.
I agree, Rjk, it takes much longer to get around on the bus than by car. But I can do work on the bus, sleep, make phone calls, etc., so I can use that longer time, whereas the shorter time in my car, all I can do is drive. There are, though, some days when I can't afford the extra time. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 667
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 6:27 pm: | |
The number one reason anywhere people don't use transit, is travel time.
Transit systems do have work harder at making transit a little more competative with the car.
Good for you for trying the bus out though. If more people ride, then maybe an express route might start, and then you got the fast service  |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1742
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 7:30 pm: | |
"I was on John R the other day and noticed that there were two SMART stops that were half a block apart. For me to take a bus they have to find a way to cut down on the drive time. It just takes too long to get to where I want to go."
First of all, two stops close together doesn't mean that the bus will stop at every stop. The ones I use prob stop every 2-3 stops at peak time but obviously less off-peak. On the other hand, how far would you be willing to walk to a bus stop? For most it is a quarter mile and usually perpendicular to that bus route, so it can make sense to have the stop every block if you really want that routes ability to extend a quarter mile into the neighborhood. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 668
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 8:40 pm: | |
The thing is you need your local bus route that stops every couple blocks. But in addition you need these local routes to connect with faster express routes, etc, to make transit more competative.
Cars also have a big impact on transit travel times. My I can get on my local bus, with the same amount of people on the bus, in the evening or in the middle of the day.
In the middle of the day or peak hours, the bus will take 45-60min to get me to my house. And that includes the bus operating express for almost half its route.
In the evening making all stops, the bus even full of people can do the trip in 25-35min at the most.
Cars do have an impact. Usually the bus is just as fast as driving or not much longer, if you stick to local roads, like the bus If you start using freeways, thats where the bus and even subway loses ground |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 530
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 8:51 pm: | |
The number one reason anywhere people don't use transit, is they don't have mass transit.
In the city of Livonia, the reason public transit is no longer available is disparate impact on the handicapped and the low income.
SMART no longer qualifies for federal or state funding for the low income in many communities due to state funding cuts and the rejection of industry support.
See DETROIT LINKS |
Parkguy
Member
Username: Parkguy
Post Number: 121
Registered: 04-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 9:59 pm: | |
Miketoronto said:
"If you start using freeways, thats where the bus and even subway loses ground."
I don't know... I've taken the Chicago blue line when the train has just blown by the stalled bumper to bumper traffic on the expressway. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 793
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 25, 2007 - 11:36 pm: | |
I think the decision to use or not to use transit comes down to three things: convenience, cost and perception.
It is much cheaper for me to ride the bus than to drive. Therefore I ride when I can, but because the systems we have are not convenient, I can't always use them.
The perception is a problem for the systems with regard to the general public, not me or most of us here. I already know whether the buses are safe or unsafe, clean or dirty, reliable or unreliable and so on, so I can make my choice with a clear picture. I suspect most people in the Detroit area have a somewhat tainted and not completely fair view, based on no experience of their own.
Mike, people use transit more in other cities than in metro Detroit despite the existence of freeways in every one of those cities. It's not just that. |
Jtw
Member
Username: Jtw
Post Number: 169
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 8:48 am: | |
quote:I think the decision to use or not to use transit comes down to three things: convenience, cost and perception.
agreed. having ridden the bus for 4 years at the university of michigan, i don't have any perception issues. virtually everyone at UM uses (or has used) the UM or AATA buses.
i realize others do have perception issues, but SMART is just another bus system.
i only live about 2.5 miles from work, and it's nearly a quarter-mile to the bus stop so it's much easier to drive myself. if i lived any further, though, the bus would benefit me. Or, if i had to pay for parking, i would use the bus more. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 669
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 9:04 am: | |
I know people use transit even where there are freeways. I am just saying transit can not compete that well against driving on a traffic free freeway. So alot of the issues with why people don't take transit is speed.
I live five mine from a subway. And except for maybe the extreme rush hour period, the subway can not beat driving downtown. 20min to drive. 45min with the subway.
I still take the subway as thousands of others do. But I also know many who won't use it, because they don't want to add 20min to their trip.
So transit does have to work at being faster. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 798
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 11:48 am: | |
That's an interesting point, Mike. I think each region needs to decide what is its overall transporation policy, which includes a target of what percentage of the public ideally would use transit. Then based on that target, you create a system that will attract the right number of people. The reason to ask the question is related to things like: how many freeway lanes do we need to maintain, how much surface parking should exist in our regional CBDs, how much do we want to control automotive pollution, and so on.
I'm not sure what a proper target would be for metro Detroit, but certainly more than the 2% who use our systems today, and less than whatever the percentage is in the New York metro. But it would help for the leadership to at least be having such discussions; so far as I know, nobody around here has ever done so. |
Jenniferl
Member
Username: Jenniferl
Post Number: 400
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 9:45 pm: | |
The 450 and 460 routes on Woodward are nearly always full. At peak times, they're standing room only. The 495 John R bus is also full. But the East-West routes tend to have fewer passengers. |
Monahan568
Member
Username: Monahan568
Post Number: 230
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 9:52 pm: | |
what time dose SMART stop running at? |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4082
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 9:54 pm: | |
varies...
1 or 2 AM for some. Check their Web site for routes/skeds. |
Monahan568
Member
Username: Monahan568
Post Number: 232
Registered: 04-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 9:57 pm: | |
why don't they run 24 hours it would cut down of the drunks |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 48
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 10:03 pm: | |
^^^Probably some of the same reason DDOT doesn't run 24 hours. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4083
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 10:03 pm: | |
Drunks won't wait 45 minutes or so for a bus. I knew hundreds of drunks who never rode buses at any time when they were running. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 670
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 10:43 pm: | |
Drunks will ride. Just ride the overnight Yonge Street bus in Toronto on a Friday or Saturday night. So many drunks, the buses have to run every 3-4min to carry everyone.
You gotta offer the service. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3360
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 10:47 pm: | |
quote:Drunks will ride. Just ride the overnight Yonge Street bus in Toronto on a Friday or Saturday night. So many drunks, the buses have to run every 3-4min to carry everyone.
You answered your own statement. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 4086
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 26, 2007 - 10:47 pm: | |
Drunks should ride and throw up in cabs. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 801
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, September 27, 2007 - 12:29 am: | |
The decision to cut back on the number of 24-hour DDOT routes was purely a budget decision. SMART does not run 24 hours on any route for the same reason, though some routes run 21 hours a day on weekdays. They run the buses based on demand; there's very little demand between 1 a.m. and 5 a.m. around here.
Dan, no bus route in metro Detroit runs every 3 to 4 minutes at any time of day. If we offered a service like that ridership would increase. But any time the City has a budget crisis they cut bus service. Woodward is on an 8 minute schedule much of the day; that's as good as we have anywhere. Most DDOT routes run every 20 to 50 minutes during the day, and only a few SMART routes run more often than hourly.
That is one of the reasons ridership is so low: you have to plan your entire day around your bus trips. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 533
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 11:34 am: | |
SMART has turned down funding for many bus routes because they rely on property taxes alone. The success of every public transit system that works is based on strong industry and government support at every level.
The city of Livonia wanted to keep SMART and put up many millions of dollars to back this up. This never made it into the newspapers but was made known at city hall. Many residents were angered that our state and local leaders rejected solid support for SMART and DDOT and just gave up and voted NO.
Even the Transportation Riders United refused to listen to Livonia area businesses who worked hard to keep SMART as they looked to the illegitimate DARTA agreement as the best answer. It was the debate between city council and the TRU supported StaySMART that swayed the vote against keeping SMART.
I want to debate the TRU and Livonia city council and SMART to restore state revenue sharing as a vital and essential tool to protect and improve our area public transit systems. In every case without exception, State’s that promote efficient use of limited tax dollars have the best public bus systems. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1756
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 9:01 pm: | |
"Dan, no bus route in metro Detroit runs every 3 to 4 minutes at any time of day. If we offered a service like that ridership would increase."
If you build it, they will come! |
Bc_n_dtown
Member
Username: Bc_n_dtown
Post Number: 27
Registered: 09-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 8:05 am: | |
quote:Probably some of the same reason DDOT doesn't run 24 hours.
DDOT does currently offers 24-hour "owl" service on the following eight bus lines:
14 Crosstown (Warren Ave)
16 Dexter
19 Fort
21 Grand River
34 Gratiot
45 Seven Mile
48 Van Dyke-E. Lafayette
53 Woodward
There was a proposal in early 2005 by Mayor Kilpatrick to eliminate 24-hour bus service in the city, effective in April 2005. However, after complaints from riders and a series of public hearings held by the City Council, the administration backed down and continued owl service on the "eight" lines only. But at the same time the 24-hour service was eliminated on 10 Chene, 11 Clairmount, 18 Fenkell, 23 Hamilton, 25 E. Jefferson and 31 Mack.
The only time in recent history where there was no 24-hour bus service in Detroit was under the Young Administration back in June 1992. That's when all bus service was eliminated between the hours of 2a.m. and 4a.m. However, Mayor Archer restored 24-hour service on 14 of the lines in April 1996, and the service has remained since. |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1765
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 3:08 pm: | |
"i only live about 2.5 miles from work, and it's nearly a quarter-mile to the bus stop so it's much easier to drive myself. if i lived any further, though, the bus would benefit me. Or, if i had to pay for parking, i would use the bus more."
What about riding a bike to the stop? |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 3366
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 3:13 pm: | |
Yeah, that 5-minute walk to the bus stop is a real killer! |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1766
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 3:19 pm: | |
Mine is about 10 min. walk, 15 min. bus ride, then 10 min. walk to get to work for example. Not quite far enough for a bike, but probably further than a 1/4 mile. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 130
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 4:16 pm: | |
"What about riding a bike to the stop?"
"Mine is about 10 min. walk, 15 min. bus ride, then 10 min. walk to get to work for example. Not quite far enough for a bike, but probably further than a 1/4 mile."
The Only logical Reason I can think of is that Jtw is just too lazy to ride the bus(or bike ride and walk). There's nothing wrong with that. I'm just being truthful with it. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 811
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 9:14 am: | |
Maybe there's no good place to leave the bike. DDOT doesn't have bike racks on buses, and I can't recall ever seeing bike racks near bus stops. Though Detroit has many charms, it is not a particularly good city for bicyclists. |
Jtw
Member
Username: Jtw
Post Number: 172
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 10:24 am: | |
quote:Yeah, that 5-minute walk to the bus stop is a real killer!
when it's raining, or hotter-than-blazes, yes it is. it's more like 10 minutes, and that's at a brisk pace.
there's no bike rack. if i were going to ride my bike at all, i would ride it the whole way (it's only a couple more miles!).
since our office is business-attire, i can't show up to the office needing a shower.
detroitrise - it's not laziness. why would i take the bus when the bus fare costs more than the gas $$, and takes more time? and since the bus runs once an hour, i can't risk being even a minute late. perhaps you can give me a better logical reason to take the bus on a daily basis? |
Jtw
Member
Username: Jtw
Post Number: 173
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 10:25 am: | |
don't get me wrong - i think the bus is a valuable and important resource. it doesn't really make sense for me to ride regularly but it does for a lot of people. |