  Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 4360 Registered: 11-2006 |
Try these...Corvette, Zo6, Viper, Mustang Cobra, Charger SRT8, Jeep GCSRT8, Cadillac CTS (and later the V version), the upcoming Camaro and Challenger. A nice little group with higher performance and lower pricetags than anything Japan has to offer. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 10355 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: LOL. Still the only vehicle to endure an ordered major redesign in its first year of production?! How many GM spouses had to drive those butt-fucking-ugly beasts around Bloomfield until the two-year lease was UP?! Feedback from people like me laughing their asses off at stoplights probably caused the execs more punishment in the bedroom than they actually deserved!! Then it got its own television show... | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 4363 Registered: 11-2006 |
Japan has its' share of ugly beasts as well...Echo, Fit, Tribeca, Prius, Armada, Suzuki's, Montero, Celica, want more?? So what?? | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 894 Registered: 11-2006 |
There are tons of American cars where I live. People here drive many Cadillacs, Ford/Chevy Trucks, Buick sedans, etc. I've never lived in a town with as many Cadillacs driving around. Mine is a 1993 Seville, deep green with camel cloth top. I love it. It's beautiful. I will never, ever buy a foreign car. GM all the way. Never had a bad one. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 206 Registered: 07-2007 |
Aztek was a fucked up design, that being said, do the unions have a voice over stopping it? Engineering, quality and design/function drive sales. Not Advertising. People talk! Take some bomb making engineers and but them in The D to make better cars! Otherwise keep moving overseas. | ||
Ray Member Username: Ray Post Number: 1015 Registered: 06-2004 |
Wow. Disaster No. 894 for the State of Michigan. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 790 Registered: 12-2006 |
It was poor quality and bad design choices thirty years ago that pushed a lot of people into foreign cars, and many of them have never come back. It's a shame, because many American cars are now made as well as, or better than, many cars from overseas manufacturers. But perception sometimes matters more than reality. Of course, if the American US made cars had labor costs anywhere near the cars made in the US by overseas-owned companies, then they could sell them cheaper (therefore sell more of them) and still make money. But that is what the argument is about. Now, if you want to compete against cars made in Europe or Asia, step 1 is for the government to take over funding of health care (such as is done in all those other countries) so the cost of that doesn't have to be added to the price of each car. But that is such a radical idea that even the Democratic presidential candidates won't go that far. For the government to provide a basic service to its citizens is apparently a vile and evil thing. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2199 Registered: 06-2006 |
lol, they're striking? In 2007? Do these people know what century they are in? The idiots aren't going to strike their companies out of business...the companies are just going to take these jobs elsewhere...it's not like you need a skilled labor force to perform them...two arms and two legs will suffice in most cases... that's why these unions formed in the first place...because these people knew they were so easily replaceable...but that only worked back when outsourcing wasn't an option for these companies...now it is | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 207 Registered: 07-2007 |
Outsource they will, until they can be profitable. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 895 Registered: 11-2006 |
Meh, it's just what they do every so often. If the issue is retirement and health care coverage, I say try whatever you can to keep it or expand it for the workers. The only reason that I could see for going to work for one of the Big Three would be the benefits program. It's not like any of us on this thread actually are employed by GM anyway. We don't really know what's going on. (Message edited by kathinozarks on September 24, 2007) | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 1302 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: When did that happen? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2200 Registered: 06-2006 |
"If the issue is retirement and health care coverage, I say try whatever you can to keep it or expand it for the workers." How does this expand retirement and health care benefits. If you were GM, why in the world would you keep ANY plants in North American in 21st century? | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 427 Registered: 02-2007 |
Thejesus, Agreed. From a business standpoint it's suicide to stay in North America considering the governments trade policies and almost incentives to outsource. These companies are hemhoraging cash to operate here. And the workers are going out on strike?? Like the company has some obligation to them. The pay is just an element of the obligation. They are out of touch and naive about the present. And the union is playing them as pawns. One striker summed up the attitude with one statement: "We build a good car for them" He doesn't know who he works for. If GM wants to pull out, the stage is set. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 896 Registered: 11-2006 |
Sstash, you are really a doomsday-er. And Thej, I was saying IF. I had heard that those were two issues the union was concerned with, which is why I used the word IF. If I were GM I would think all of y'all's opinions on MY company weren't worth a hill of beans and I would do as I please. We know nothing. | ||
Cincinnati_kid Member Username: Cincinnati_kid Post Number: 14 Registered: 07-2006 |
This sstashmoo guy is a joke. Why do you have so much contempt for UAW workers. Do you think that all auto workers are fat slobs that sit around on their jobs all day. Where do you work? If GM moves their operations out of the USA, who's gonna buy their cars? China, Japan, or maybe Mexico right? Gimme a break. All you haters are just probably jealous that these people make more money than you, and you want to see their pay come down to where yours is. | ||
Crystal Member Username: Crystal Post Number: 32 Registered: 05-2007 |
"We build a good car for them." That, the us-them mentality, is part of the problem. Don't they get it? They build cars for buyers, including themselves, not for management. The gall and selfishness the UAW has to walk out, in 2007 in Southeast Michigan, are astounding. There so many of us, many in my own neighborhood, who would be SO happy to have a job at all, let alone great benefits and -- dare I say it? -- job security. | ||
Lombaowski Member Username: Lombaowski Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2004 |
Cincinnati kid>Hi You're missing the point. From a business prospective, from a perspective of saving Detroit, and from a point of view of a logical transition to the 21st century economy this strike is idiotic. Why did all the plants close in the 70's, 80's, and 90's? Because the automakers were at a competitive disadvantage due to the power of the unions and the cost of producing vehicles because of high pay and excessive benefits. How many GM and Ford employees who made rotten cars in the 1970s cared about the economic impact of what was going on? They were so fat and happy they never thought they'd lose their job. Then we got layoffs, strikes, layoffs, strikes, closed plants, layoffs, strikes, and 30 years later we are right back to where we were before. After all this time, after all the unions have done to destroy the city of Detroit because they want to do it they way they did it in the 40s, and we still have this narrow view of the big picture of the auto industry in Detroit. If I were an employee I'd probably think people were hating on me too but that's just not the case. Many of the "haters" have family and friends who were or still are autoworkers. Many of us also make more money, have normal and productive lives, and maybe even own a jet ski. It's not about that. It's about the high school graduate who got a job on the line making $30 an hour realizing that he is no more important than the guy at the deli slicing meat for $10. It's about the middle managers making 110k a year with a college degree realizing that they might have to reduce the square footage of their home by 1500 feet if the current trend continues. The auto industry for years has been a gravy train to a lot of people in Michigan. After all that has happened, after all the plant closings, the layoffs, and the disenfranchising of an entire section of the great State of Michigan those who were lucky enough to keep their jobs and lifestyles should realize they have to face the economic reality of the 21st century. If they do not then they will face a fate far worse than their predecessors. Instead of collecting fat checks for sitting around on furlough they will collect an unemployment check for 6 months and pray they can sell their house. Instead of getting a transfer to another plant in another state they’ll get directions to the closest union office which will be closed because the funds and support are gone. Why would GM pay anyone $40 an hour when they know they can pay someone $5 an hour in Mexico? Why would GM put up with the constant rhetoric of a mid 20th century establishment called the UAW who has long ago lost its credibility, its support from the general public, and its ability to leverage? What it boils down to for someone like me who grew up in Detroit, who witnessed the workers abuse of the system, the fat get fatter, then all the layoffs and plant closings…is what the hell can the UAW be thinking? It is known that both GM and Ford are at the brink of having to ask the federal government to save the once proud auto industry. Then what happens? Someone from the outside is coming in and they are gonna tear those companies apart. No more $40 an hour jobs, no more inefficiency that has plagued U.S. automakers since the 70’s, and no more UAW. GM and Ford want to be more like Dell and Microsoft and less like the producers of the Citation and Fairmont. If it takes moving out of Michigan and to a more labor friendly state then they’ll establish their headquarters in South Carolina and move all assembly operations to Honduras. (Message edited by lombaowski on September 25, 2007) (Message edited by lombaowski on September 25, 2007) | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1950 Registered: 01-2004 |
I think GM should hire Blackwater as their security team, then they could just round up these ungrateful workers on a bridge overpass somewhere and just Harry Bennett the fuck out of em. Just like the good old days. Whats with these damn people trying to feed their families and have some sort of health care - who do they think they are ? WHERE do they think they are ? What ? Too proud to work in a slaughterhouse or a shit-filled spinach field for sub minimum wages ? | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6578 Registered: 02-2004 |
YAY! SOLIDARITY FOREVER! March on UAW troops. You're at WAR against the corporations. They must agree on your demands or strike, strike, strike! Support the UAW! The Union is strong. They got the plant but we have the POWER! | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1645 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yeah going to Honduras or Mexico is a smart move Lambowaski. How many Escalades do you think your average Honduran will buy? Probably not as many as the party store owner next to the GM plant who had to close up shop after GM left. But I'm sure that some party store owner in Honduras will now be able to afford a Yugo though. Yee Hah! Watch those bucks roll in. | ||
Lombaowski Member Username: Lombaowski Post Number: 58 Registered: 11-2004 |
I think the idea was to make the cars there and sell in America. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1646 Registered: 08-2006 |
The point I was trying to make with Party Store Owner is when you close a plant it has more effect then just to those that worked there. Think the people not needed in the banks who cut the loans for these guys "toys" or teachers no longer needed at the schools, DPW workers no longer needed, letter carriers too. All these supporting people are likely GM customers. Your Honduran plant cannot generate the same benefits to our economy. With a weaker economy GM will see even less sales, because I'm sure we all agree that no one else can match our purchase power. And like my earlier point if some one were to actually want to buy a product made by Americans they could no longer buy a GM if they were to follow your thinking. (Message edited by cambrian on September 25, 2007) | ||
Lombaowski Member Username: Lombaowski Post Number: 60 Registered: 11-2004 |
Yeah I agree with you. Like I said in my original post, the UAW has gone a long way in helping Detroit hit rock bottom. Think about all those great tool and dye shops that were nestled on corners of every Detroit neighborhood back in the day. All the little diners across the street from a plant, all the party stores, laundry mats, butcher shops, delis, ice cream stands, etc. Moving to Honduras would certainly not benefit Detroit. It would benefit GM however and likely benefit the U.S. economy long-term if we can sell more of our cars cheaper. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 2731 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Moving to Honduras would certainly not benefit Detroit. It would benefit GM however and likely benefit the U.S. economy long-term if we can sell more of our cars cheaper." Not if they don't employ anybody here. I really could care less about GM's success if they are basically a foreign company with barely any Americans on their payrolls. If they can be profitable, and keep jobs here and build plants here, then I'm on their side. But if being profitable means moving all production to foreign soil, why should I care about their success? | ||
Lombaowski Member Username: Lombaowski Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2004 |
Cheaper cars=more buying more buying=economic stimulation economic stimulation=new business new business=market expansion market expansion=investment investment=long-term capital long-term captial=stability So you should care. The cars will also be American exports. Dell, microsoft, the chip makers, a lot of businesses so this in today's market. I want GM to stay in Detroit, but it will not hurt the U.S. economy long-term if they leave. It will badly hurt Detroit but Detroit has already faced much worse IMO. Time for a new mindset and niche. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1647 Registered: 08-2006 |
Our economy would suffer deflation. Pricing a car from $30K to $18K has little effect if your $8 / hr job cannot cover the payments. | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2598 Registered: 10-2003 |
You really overestimate the importance of GM to our national economy. There's a chart in today's WSJ that show GM had about 475,000 UAW workers in 1985. Now they have 73,000, a decrease of about 400,000 over roughly 20 years. Has the national economy tanked because of this? No, it barely notices. And this "logic" that continues to come up that we need lots of high paid autoworkers in order to make a market for Big 3 cars is silly at best. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1648 Registered: 08-2006 |
Don't forget the retirees continue to purchase cars with those sinful pensions, so the economy isn't just trying to make it work based on the currently employed. Taking jobs out of the US without replacing them and hoping Hondurans and Chinese can pick up the slack, boy I don't know about that one Track 75. Who here in the US will continue to buy GM when they can buy an Accord made in OH? | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 428 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "Sstash, you are really a doomsday-er." Kath, How so? Merely pointing out the realities and risks. I'm offering up suggestions for a fix. You're advocating a path of failure that will ultimately lead to the auto's demise. So who is the "Doomsday-er"? Quote: "This sstashmoo guy is a joke. Why do you have so much contempt for UAW workers(?)." Cinci, Not the workers, a system that has used extortion with the threat of hurting the company with strikes if demands aren't met. These demands have driven up labor costs and price of retail goods across the board. What could we buy cars for if the autoworkers were paid an average wage? | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 1208 Registered: 04-2007 |
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/ news?pid=20601510&refer=home&s id=ab9U67cQvQBk |
