  Mod Member Username: Mod Post Number: 112 Registered: 07-2004 |
The UAW is an anomaly in this new economy. It will lose its effectiveness as market forces will eventually smother its influence. One's physical labor isn't as marketable in this age as it once was. People have to learn to adapt as jobs become obsolete and muscle becomes a commodity. | ||
Cincinnati_kid Member Username: Cincinnati_kid Post Number: 15 Registered: 07-2006 |
Lombaowski, some of your points a valid, but as I said before, no mention of these greedy a-- CEOs making billions to drive their respective companies in the ground. I don't see any of them saying maybe I will cut my salary to help the company. If the line workers have to suffer, then they should as well. Even when it was their bumbling decisions that put us in this position. The guy on the line doesn't make those calls. It almost seems like most of you guy's condone upper management making enough money to take over a small nation. It's bull sh-t. Just because they went to college, earned a degree, and kissed the right a--, don't make them better than anyone else. Why should the rank and file have to constantly give and give, when they aren't giving up anything themselves. I'm all for the UAW and what they are fighting for, because whether you know it or not, if GM has it's way, then every other major company will do the same. It might even affect you. The more reason GM, Ford and Chrysler want to move more of their operations overseas. Cheaper labor over there means more money and profits for them which equates to more ridiculous salaries for the CEO's and their cronies. How many more excuses are you gonna make for them? (Message edited by cincinnati_kid on September 25, 2007) (Message edited by cincinnati_kid on September 25, 2007) | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 430 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: " It's bull sh-t. Just because they went to college, earned a degree, and kissed the right a--, don't make them better than anyone else." As with anything else. The people that can turn around large corporations are in short supply and command the highest wages. These are truly the brightest and the best. Folks like Mullaly et al. When a person can generate Billions and pull an organization from the flames so to speak, their salary of millions is of little consequence. It's life or death. There is an old saying amongst mechanics "Tools don't cost they pay" The same can be applied to people. I'm not referring to all management and I agree many should be broomed and many have. Referencing key players. | ||
Smitch Member Username: Smitch Post Number: 25 Registered: 04-2007 |
Michigan: That was a really insightful article into the life of an autoworker in GM's heyday. It really does a good job illustrating how both the UAW and GM are responsible for the problems they face today. Good read | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4063 Registered: 10-2004 |
Some of the UAW retirees on my softball team would talk about their hard work schedules at some of their assembly plants during the 1970s. One had to fill the parts bins twice a shift. It took 45 minutes every four hours. The rest of the workday could be spent at the commissary. As long as the bins were filled properly, the foreman was satisfied if he would be gone several hours a day. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1649 Registered: 08-2006 |
You speak the truth Cincinatti Kid. With the exception of Bob Lutz, can some one out there name some good things Wagoner or his cronies have done for GM in the last 8 years? | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 912 Registered: 01-2005 |
From the important Catholic teaching document, Rerum Novarum (1893)instructing on the value and moral justification for labor unions and their activities: "The following duties bind the wealthy owner and the employer: not to look upon their work people as their bondsmen, but to respect in every man his dignity as a person ennobled by Christian character. They are reminded that, according to natural reason and Christian philosophy, working for gain is creditable, not shameful, to a man, since it enables him to earn an honorable livelihood; but to misuse men as though they were things in the pursuit of gain, or to value them solely for their physical powers - that is truly shameful and inhuman. Again justice demands that, in dealing with the working man, religion and the good of his soul must be kept in mind. Hence, the employer is bound to see that the worker has time for his religious duties; that he be not exposed to corrupting influences and dangerous occasions; and that he be not led away to neglect his home and family, or to squander his earnings. Furthermore, the employer must never tax his work people beyond their strength, or employ them in work unsuited to their sex and age. His great and principal duty is to give every one what is just. Doubtless, before deciding whether wages are fair, many things have to be considered; but wealthy owners and all masters of labor should be mindful of this - that to exercise pressure upon the indigent and the destitute for the sake of gain, and to gather one's profit out of the need of another, is condemned by all laws, human and divine. To defraud any one of wages that are his due is a great crime which cries to the avenging anger of Heaven. "Behold, the hire of the laborers... which by fraud has been kept back by you, crieth; and the cry of them hath entered into the ears of the Lord of Sabaoth."(6) Lastly, the rich must religiously refrain from cutting down the workmen's earnings, whether by force, by fraud, or by usurious dealing; and with all the greater reason because the laboring man is, as a rule, weak and unprotected, and because his slender means should in proportion to their scantiness be accounted sacred. Were these precepts carefully obeyed and followed out, would they not be sufficient of themselves to keep under all strife and all its causes?" It is because, standing alone, that the laboring person is weak and unprotected, unions become necessary. A great deal of what we value as benefits in our own work situations have evolved in the workplace because union people sacrificed and lived on strike pay to achieve them. You may say that these tactics are no longer feasible - but human nature doesn't change very much. There is still greed and cheating and the working class needs solidarity probably just as much. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10240 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Can you name something good that the UAW has done for GM in the last 8 years? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1650 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yes!•• UAW people are responsible for putting together a quality product that has allowed GM's cars to have exceedingly better JD Power scores that out rank Toyota and rival Lexus. Your turn, what has Wagoner done? | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 100 Registered: 05-2006 |
I've have been reading that maybe the UAW wants to strike so they can prepare the rank and file for a concessionary contract. The UAW big shots have to walk a fine line between the economic realities presented by management and not being perceived as giving in to management. Their very jobs depend on how well they can walk that line. The UAW is hoping after a few weeks of just getting strike fund money a concessionary contract will be easier to sell to the troops. Also management wouldn't mind a strike of a few weeks to get rid of that excess car inventory. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 232 Registered: 07-2005 |
Many of you sound like petulent children. I keep reading, "it wasn't the workers fault, it was management's poor decisions." First, it wasn't just managements fault. Try running a business by paying people 3 times what the market dictates. Try being unable to adjust to market conditions by shutting down plants or laying off workers when you need to. The management at each of the big three didn't get and stay stupid all at the same time. But this is exactly what you would have us believe. For the sake of argument, let's assume that it is 100% managements fault that GM is suffering. Let's assume the hardworking line workers had zero to do with it. WHO CARES!••• It doesn't matter why they are where they are. Are some of you assuming that life is always fair? Can you be that oblivious? The company doesn't exist to keep people employed, it exists to make money. That is what you union apologists don't get, you are not living in the real world. Do you really think that a company has to keep employees around indefinitely if the company is underperforming and it "wasn't their fault?" Wouldn't it be cool if Michigan still had dozens of stove manufacturers with all of their employees making $70 an hour in a jobs bank? The other popular "argument" on here regards the CEO's salary. Executive's salaries are set by the market. I think that you would find that Rick Wagoner is not high paid when compared to Fortune 500 CEOs and certainly not when compared to Fortune 25 CEOs. You do understand that Rick Wagoner could leave GM and get another job that pays millions in a heartbeat. If GM decided to pay their CEO $150,000 they wouldn't have a very good CEO. That's the difference, most line workers would be lucky to get a job paying $14 an hour if not for their union job. BTW, Rick Wagoner has done a lot of good things at GM, despite the Union albatross. Need evidence, they are making money all over the world (except the U.S.) and are the biggest car manufacturer in China. | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 233 Registered: 07-2005 |
Let's hope you're right FirstandTen | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1651 Registered: 08-2006 |
The domestics are seriously delusional if they really think they can continue hang thier future on Chinese Buick sales. PRICE SLASHING THREATENS CHINA AUTO PROFITS. Relentless cutting of auto prices in China is sapping the profits of local and international automakers as foreign OEMs scramble to maintain their place in the fast-growing market, says today’s Wall Street Journal. Even so, the combined market share of Chinese automakers has climbed to nearly 31% in the first seven months of this year vs. 26% a year earlier. One reason for the intense price pressure is that the middle-class consumers who are now buying cars are more cost-conscious and care less about brands. Also, many Chinese carmakers are controlled by local governments who subsidize them for the sake of the local economy, allowing those OEMs to undercut the pricing of foreign automakers. Beijing wants to force a consolidation of the nation’s fragmented Chinese carmakers, but it doesn’t seem able to pull it off, according to the Journal. | ||
Prokopowicz Member Username: Prokopowicz Post Number: 20 Registered: 02-2005 |
Cincinnati_kid says: I'm all for the UAW and what they are fighting for, because whether you know it or not, if GM has it's way, then every other major company will do the same. It might even affect you. The more reason GM, Ford and Chrysler want to move more of their operations overseas. Cheaper labor over there means more money and profits for them which equates to more ridiculous salaries for the CEO's and their cronies. GM is not ahead of "every other major company" on this trend, it is the absolute laggard. The leaders are companies like Apple. Long term, Michigan has a bright future if the car companies can become like Apple, do brilliant design, engineering, marketing, testing, etc, using the talent based in Michigan if that is the best place for it, and doing their manufacturing somewhere else. The companies will be more profitable than ever and be able to meet their long term obligations to retirees. The product will be cheaper and demand will go up, world-wide. But they will never hire another manufacturing employee here. The change will be monumental, but long term it would be very positive if Michigan were not a manufacturing state. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 2737 Registered: 10-2003 |
The problem, Prokopowicz, is that not all engineering is done here either. That, too, can be offshored for less money. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1652 Registered: 08-2006 |
Right, and how many computers are manufactured here? If GM leaves then Toyota and Honda will wrap themselves in the American Flag and say "We still make our cars here." | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 101 Registered: 05-2006 |
johnlodge says:The problem, Prokopowicz, is that not all engineering is done here either. That, too, can be offshored for less money. Very true, but even the Japanese have their tech centers in Michigan feeling that this area is still considered cutting edge. Its just that they don't want to do ANY manufacturing here. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4064 Registered: 10-2004 |
If there ever would be a Silicon Valley revival of the US auto industry, the least likely place for it to occur would be Michigan, face it. Why would it occur here? | ||
Yeti Member Username: Yeti Post Number: 3 Registered: 09-2007 |
Three Things From me. 1) Just an observation, I lived in Flint from the time I was 16 until I was 28. Then I moved to Ann Arbor and was AMAZED at all the foreign cars (and even all the non-GM cars). I hate to say it, but i like the way some of those cars look. And tey seem to be pretty popular. 2) I am looking for a new car, and I am pissed that I cant find anything as a daily driver that is cool looking, 2 door, stick shift, fun to drive, and less than $30,000. I mean come on. Cobalts are bottom of the barrel, G6 2-doors are ugly, I dont want a mid-sized sedan (Ford Fusion I am talking about you). The best thing I can come up with is a Scion, or an Altima Coup. Just my opinion. 3) Here is a question, this just a question: Why dosn't GM just tell the union to bite me. I am not pro - or Anti union. But they dont have workers now, and they could have lots of workers happy to have jobs. I guess the question is, can GM just tell the Union to go away and not be a Union shop? | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2754 Registered: 02-2004 |
I'll be happy to drive up to the picket line, and I'll tell them to bite you. Then you can brush your teeth and bite me. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1653 Registered: 08-2006 |
What imagery ORF! Whew! fanning myself! Yeti, my buddy traded his Scion TC in on a new '06 Caliber and he loves it. I liked the Neon SRT 4 that preceded it better though. (Message edited by cambrian on September 25, 2007) | ||
Spartacus Member Username: Spartacus Post Number: 234 Registered: 07-2005 |
If GM could they probably would. They are not permitted, under the law, to fire their workers without first engaging in good faith (read: protracted) negotiations. | ||
Jmarx Member Username: Jmarx Post Number: 28 Registered: 01-2005 |
Spartacus why couldn't GM do that (break the union; non-union job or no job)? I mean, they are not obligated to a UAW contract right now are they...? The contract expired at the beginning of September didn't it? (I'm not pro/against it necessarily, but am curious why they couldn't do it...) | ||
Prokopowicz Member Username: Prokopowicz Post Number: 21 Registered: 02-2005 |
JohnLodge wrote: The problem, Prokopowicz, is that not all engineering is done here either. That, too, can be offshored for less money LY wrote: If there ever would be a Silicon Valley revival of the US auto industry, the least likely place for it to occur would be Michigan, face it. Why would it occur here? There is some inertia holding the HQs and other facilities here, and the state could do whatever is in its limited power to keep it here. But you are both right, it is far from given. If it is really more effective to do this work offshore, then it will be that way, but Apple et al. haven't gone that route, yet. If I were making policy, I would sacrifice all manufacturing incentives in favor of professional/corporate incentives. No more new factories filled with workers - they don't make sense here. | ||
Belleislerunner Member Username: Belleislerunner Post Number: 365 Registered: 12-2003 |
"In a normal week, a GM assembly worker averages $27.81 an hour and takes home nearly $800. In a good week, several hours of overtime boost that check by a couple hundred dollars. "Many of the UAW members are not financially prepared for this," said Beth Allen, a certified financial planner in Utica who counts many autoworkers among her clients." That is about $65,000 a year before taxes without overtime. I don't think I will be going to see Beth anytime soon if she can't help someone live off $65,000 dollars knowing that a strike is part of their working conditions. What happened to her telling them to have an emergency fund of 3-6 months of living expenses? Wonder if those people can sue her for poor financial advice? www.detnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ article?AID=/20070925/AUTO01/7 09250353 | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4065 Registered: 10-2004 |
The proper role of the state is not to regulate the private sector as many would want it to. The latter is what's called socialism. Point out how the Silicon Hills or Silicon Valley are heavily unionized, although they both occur in extremely liberal parts of the country--Austin and CA. Anybody foolish enough to expect meaningful answers coming out of the public sector deserve what they get. | ||
Smitch Member Username: Smitch Post Number: 26 Registered: 04-2007 |
$27.81/hour........ Thats almost 2x's the national average. And we thought that Michigan teachers were overpaid.... | ||
Cincinnati_kid Member Username: Cincinnati_kid Post Number: 16 Registered: 07-2006 |
Is Mullaly pulling Ford out the flames? I don't think so. They are in worst shape now than when Bill Jr was running them. But Mullaly is cashing in those chips. Ford is in the worst shape of all the "Detroit 3" You can justify it, Sstashmoo I don't. (Message edited by cincinnati_kid on September 25, 2007) | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1654 Registered: 08-2006 |
No one except Sparty could say anything good about ole Rick Wagoner either. And all that was about was some back slapping for selling a fraction of cars in China that are sold over here, and at that, thier market is threatened by the race to the bottom price structure started by Wal Mart. | ||
Michigan Member Username: Michigan Post Number: 1210 Registered: 04-2007 |
Smitch- Thanks i found a great read and gave me some ideas about how we got where we are today. Unfortunately I think for most folks on the board this issue hits too close to home to appreciate that article. So, it kind of got lost in the shuffle. |
