  Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 814 Registered: 08-2005 |
quote: Because a lot of UAW guys don't put that extra money in the bank. A LOT of these guys have boats or jet skis or snowmobiles, flat screen plasma TVs in the living room, a vacation home up north, two brand new vehicles in front of their house (hey, the wife's got to have a new car too!), etc... Why do you think so many of them went bankrupt when the automakers cut the overtime a few years ago? If you're making $87,000 a year and you have to declare BANKRUPTCY, then you are an idiot who is living beyond your means and are probably grossly overpaid. http://www.detnews.com/2005/au tosinsider/0509/18/A01-318432. htm It's not the financial planner's fault that these guys can't plan ahead, they have only themselves to blame. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10244 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: So the engineering, design, work environement, plants, etc, etc all just materialize out of the thin air? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1656 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yes JT1, all those roles go into a quality car as well, and they all make more then $27 / hr too. But no one complains about them. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4067 Registered: 10-2004 |
I remember back during the 1980s when the A&P mechanics at airports telling me that they were more important than the engineers and other pros who worked in the industry. Much of what the line attendants and A&Ps did on a day-to-day basis was replacing defective modules and refueling the planes. Sorta sounds like hearing that the UAW is responsible for the vehicles being built... | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 1657 Registered: 08-2006 |
Engineering cannot work in a vacuum. If you have any experience in Manufacturing you know that young Engineers fresh out of college think they know absolutely EVERYTHING. However once they hit the plant floor all that book learning has to be de-programmed and then they are taught how things really work. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4068 Registered: 10-2004 |
Much of what the UAW does at an assembly plant is putting subassemblies together. Lear and Johnson Controls make the seats, their controls, and the entire "dashboard," etc. But, they do build the engines and powertrains (at other plants). Still, it's hardly rocket science. And besides, engineers learn the ropes very quickly. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1444 Registered: 07-2004 |
Um, seemed like there were helicopters hovering over the strike zone at Poletown Assembly last night. Why? Anyway, what a weird place to have the strike. I even casually wondered if GM had the designers pick the place with zero pedestrians and speeding service drive traffic to discourage visibility during picket lines. But, if so, they hadn't considered the possibility of people speeding down into the service drive leaning on their horns in solidarity. It's not a chorus of "We Shall Not Be Moved," but, hey, it's the Motor City! | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 431 Registered: 02-2007 |
Quote: "Is Mullaly pulling Ford out the flames? I don't think so. They are in worst shape now than when Bill Jr was running them." He hasn't yet, give the guy a chance. | ||
Titancub Member Username: Titancub Post Number: 83 Registered: 08-2006 |
Please get back to work and get an agreement hammered out! This only contributes more to the falling image of Michigan as a place to work and invest in. Big 3 are struggling enough as it is w/o a negative labor image over their heads. This militant and combative attitude has been cited as contributing to a growing consumer sentiment that buying union actually is bad - and thats the last thing either side can afford. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 3333 Registered: 12-2005 |
I drove by the GM Tech Center today and the picketers looked confident and happy. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4070 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:Why shouldn't they be happy? They're making nearly $30/day for doing next to nothing... | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 4367 Registered: 11-2006 |
Make a settlement, and clandestinely make a long term strategy to weaken and later eliminate the UAW. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4071 Registered: 10-2004 |
GM would probably gain more customers than they would lose by hiring permanent "scabs" after giving their UAW "workers" an ultimatum to return or not to return at their own peril. If they refuse, "their" jobs would go to those willing to work. If push comes to shove, that'll probably happen anyway, so the UAW better address that. | ||
Fmstack Member Username: Fmstack Post Number: 2 Registered: 06-2007 |
Andrew Leonard has an interesting article up here where he talks about the strike. The really insightful part of the article, to me at least, is where he notes: The truth of the global economy is that the U.S. is never, ever again going to be competitive as a manufacturer of cheap cars, either globally or in the United States. That market will belong to China and India -- even now, cheap Chinese cars are making inroads into European markets. U.S. carmakers can't compete with that, and they shouldn't want to. U.S. carmakers should be doing what carmakers in other advanced industrial nations -- like Germany and Japan -- do: make better cars than anybody else. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 428 Registered: 08-2007 |
"And we thought that Michigan teachers were overpaid...." As a teacher, I thought I was well-paid. Amazing what we value here. Gee, maybe if I even had the right to strike (1994 state law took that one away), I'd feel a little more solidarity. I've worked without a contract for two years. With the current economy, I'm thinking the UAW needs to suck it up. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 4395 Registered: 11-2006 |
Or lay down and die. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4171 Registered: 10-2003 |
I am surprised and mildly pleased with this strike. It is nice to see whatever remains of the forces of working people stand up and fight. What other choice is there? The working middle class of Detroit and America, as a whole, have taken a huge beating for decades now with the real earnings sinking. Ironically the only thing that is keeping their buying power from sinking totally is the policy of wide open dumping of cheap consumer products from countries who are, by doing so, taking away their work and driving their real wages even lower. Combine that both parents working, often several jobs, and you have a desperate group of people with little hope. Maybe those making all the money in this global economy are about to understand what people do when driven into a corner. At the core of this are surrender trade treaties - the gift of both the Republicrats and the Democans. Remember when ~we~ were the Yankee traders and we out-shrewd-ed everyone else? When we had the balance of trade surpluses and our money was the almighty dollar? I think the GM workers may have looked around at the beating Delphi workers took and may finally be seeing the light that if there is no fight put up, they will simply be driven to the lower middle class, increasingly watch their benefits disappear and THEN be fired. Meanwhile the management and board of directors will continue to write themselves bigger checks while the go on screw our brother and sister Chinese workers who are cast as the villains. If one is in that position and increasingly hopeless, can't anyone see where some might say. "F*** it I'll take those b****** down with me. They say if we don't bend over they will leave the country? What the hell; they already are." We haven't reached that breaking point, but it is near. Very near. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4073 Registered: 10-2004 |
Lowell might not be pleased with the trouncing the UAW is taking in the DetNews.com poll--3 to 1 against the UAW. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 212 Registered: 07-2007 |
I really blame GM management for giving the overly generous benefits in the first place. They put themselves in the position they are in today. Doesn't GM they have good number crunchers to figure out what future health, etc. costs will be? The big3 will end up like the steel industry soon if they cave in. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4172 Registered: 10-2003 |
LOL Detroit News, say no more my friend. An internet poll, very scientific. I will grant that they are in an unpopular position. But when they are cornered watching management line their pockets, they may not care. Read the story of Samson in Bible before you say your prayers tonight and turn out your lights and tuck in. I also love how this spills over into attacks on teachers. Envy? Here we have every political and businsess leader wheezing about how education is the key to everything and then do everything they can to villify teachers and whine about their pay. Go figure. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 4401 Registered: 11-2006 |
Taken a beating?? Where else on earth, in all of history, could a person without a competitive background of education etc, have had it so good? | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 4173 Registered: 10-2003 |
~Had~ it so good^. Learn your tenses, particularly the past tense. Real wage decline is everywhere and accelerating. The destruction of the working middle class is at full throttle. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10245 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: And assume that it is owed to them as well. | ||
Bratt Member Username: Bratt Post Number: 651 Registered: 01-2004 |
My ex makes over $30/hour being a hi-lo driver for the big three. I know janitors at the plants that make over $100,000. Can you guys believe that? Think of the average pay of an average janitor. Makes you wonder what the hell is really going on... | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 458 Registered: 02-2006 |
Union workers need to realize that GM, Ford or wherever they work didn't knock on their door and ask them to come and work for them. They chose to work for the company. If they don't like the terms of employment with that company maybe they should take their skills to the open market and see how much value they really have. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4074 Registered: 10-2004 |
It's easy to see what's going on. GM is spending its stockholders' and bondholders' equities on payrolls, corruption, and graft--until GM sells off the very last of its remaining companies. An incomplete litany of what GM once owned--all of GMAC instead of today's 49%, Bendix, Hughes, EDS, minority interests in other foreign car firms, etc. Soon the very last of what's left will be gone and GM will go bankrupt. Then, the city of Detroit will lose a major employer and landowner and will lose all those former tax revenues. Those IT firms that GM used will lose a major account--but that is already happening since GM has split them up recently. Others can fill in whatever else will ensue here.......................... .............................. .............................. .............................. ......................... | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 4411 Registered: 11-2006 |
Lowell, when the wages and benefits go down from an artificially high level, it is a correction, not destruction. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 4412 Registered: 11-2006 |
Livernoisyard, way too pessimistic. GM was overextended and too big to be efficient. This correction/downsizing will make them a lean and competitive force to be reckoned with. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 794 Registered: 12-2006 |
Nice to see Lowell make an appearance. I can add to his interesting points. First from the Associated Press, some breaking news, for what it's worth: "DETROIT - Bargainers for the United Auto Workers and General Motors Corp. on Tuesday night were close to reaching a contract agreement that would end a nationwide strike by 73,000 workers, two people who were briefed on the talks said. Negotiators began work Tuesday morning and were talking into the night in an effort to halt the strike, which started at 11 a.m. Monday at about 80 GM facilities across the country. Both of the people requested anonymity because the talks are private. One said negotiating teams were working out "small details," while the other said that work was almost wrapped up on an innovative plan for the company to pay the union to form a trust and take over responsibility for retiree health care." Enough plagiarism. Now: The essential difference between the U.S. and the rest of the industrialized (and industrializing) world is that the other countries have a thing called an "industrial policy", which we do not. That is, other countries decide what industries they'd like to have, and then they set up a tax structure, regulatory structure and incentives to make sure those companies can thrive. One example: China's industrial policy calls for steel plants, so among other things, China gives steel plants free natural gas to run their furnaces. Not one steel plant would have failed in the United States in the last forty years if they had government-provided free natural gas. That is just one example among tens of thousands. We do not have such a policy because people do not demand it, same with single-payer health care and lots of other things. Our uninformed electorate seems to think gay marriage is an important issue while industrial policy is not, because their politicians tell them so and they do not know how to think critically, or choose (or care) not to. As Will Rogers put it nicely, "generally speaking, people get the government they deserve". | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4075 Registered: 10-2004 |
Without GM going bankrupt, they will have to pay those pensions. How many retired UAW members are on GM's payroll for every active UAW member? Seven? [Somebody supply this figure...] How could GM survive while paying all that overhead for retirees who may not have worked in eons? Where's the money going to come from, no matter how lean they become? Unless those retirees die off somehow... |
