 
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3078
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 12:29 pm: |    |
quote:well lets be honest then what can be done to help young black males in the inner city. it seems that crime is the main road they choose.
The root cause of the problem is single moms raising kids they didn't want and have no means to care for. There is no male role model in the home to keep these kids away from crime, drugs, and dropping out of school.
There is also a culture in the inner city that glorifies counter-productive behavior. This results in thousands of young black males who have no ability or desire to work. They are largely illiterate and lack any marketable skills. We have enabled this problem to grow through the welfare state. We are rewarding bad decisions and subsidizing failure.
quote: What was all of this craziness about if law enforcement was right there?
Law enforcement apparentley was not "right there." They were close but it only takes a few seconds to get shot. Hesitate and you lose. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2230
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 12:29 pm: | |
"In addition to my main point, what if you shoot at a innocent pedestrian who was minding their business?"
Then you would be a murderer...wtf is your point?
That's what these thugs were attempting to do...shoot an innocent person who was minding his own business |
Detroitsuperfly
Member
Username: Detroitsuperfly
Post Number: 30
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 12:35 pm: | |
So single Moms are to blame?
Thats insane! Do you have any proof what-so-ever that ANY of the assailants were from single parent homes?
I'm from a single parent home and never committed a crime. So are many of my friends.
The assailant's were oxygen breathers, maybe you can blame them. They also are Detroiters. My God, Detroit is to blame.
Lets see how many ridiculous assumptions we can make and label it as the truth.
(Message edited by detroitsuperfly on September 29, 2007) |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3081
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 12:40 pm: | |
Detroitsuperfly -
I am talking IN GENERAL OBVIOUSLY in response to a GENERAL QUESTION. I was raised by a widowed mom too and never committed a crime.
The fact that 70% of black kids are born out of wedlock is an enormous part of the problem. Everyone knows that except you I guess.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on September 29, 2007) |
Detroitsuperfly
Member
Username: Detroitsuperfly
Post Number: 31
Registered: 07-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 12:43 pm: | |
Yet still you have no proof that these kids in particular were from a single parent home. You are merely making assumptions and patting yourself on the back for your imagination. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2231
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 12:44 pm: | |
yeah, Detroitsuperfly, you don't have much of an argument there... |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3083
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 12:46 pm: | |
quote:Yet still you have no proof that these kids in particular were from a single parent home. You are merely making assumptions and patting yourself on the back for your imagination.
Again, I was not referring to THESE KIDS IN PARTICULAR although I wouldn't be surprised if it did apply to them given the numbers. A question was raised about the plight of black kids in general. Learn to read. |
Sknutson
Member
Username: Sknutson
Post Number: 950
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 1:13 pm: | |
I certainly will not mourn the death of this teen. That being said, to lay all of the blame on the "welfare state" is typical right-wing blowhard oversimplification.
Until we as a society can figure out how to combat the root causes of the hopelessness that permeates so much of the "underclass", these violent thugs will not go away. Its certainly too bad that so many decent-paying blue collar jobs have been shifted overseas. Not everyone can be an IT worker or a hedge fund manager. |
Digitalvision
Member
Username: Digitalvision
Post Number: 399
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 1:17 pm: | |
OK - has anyone mentioned the craziness of this happening right outside of police HQ?
What the hell is happening with DPD?
I used to walk by/through that lot home almost every night (I figured I'd be safer going by police HQ and the Sheriff's office - guess I was mistaken) - and it seems like between the Cuban restaurant deal and now this, there is starting to be more of an issue downtown.
The city can't deny it any longer, and we need to deal with it now (and by we, I mean business owners, taxpayers of all kinds, and residents, working together). Sometimes we don't all agree, but I can't imagine more and better police protection is not in the common good of all.
I've been involved downtown for quite awhile now (since the age of 14), and I've never heard of this much truly violent stuff happening in the CBD itself. This is the kind of thing that can derail the great progress that has been made, and makes investors nervous - which means less jobs.
The city cannot fix by itself the socio-economic problems above (whomever, however you want to slice it) - but they can re-prioritize the budget so that there are more cops on the streets. |
Detroitrise
Member
Username: Detroitrise
Post Number: 84
Registered: 09-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 1:23 pm: | |
Digitalvision:
"The part that kills me is that he was in front of a Police Station. What was all of this craziness about if law enforcement was right there?" |
Umcs
Member
Username: Umcs
Post Number: 62
Registered: 06-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 1:26 pm: | |
Detroit really should examine the policing methods and theories used by the former New York City police chief. They have been effective in other cities besides New York. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3084
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 1:30 pm: | |
Sknutson -
It is not a lack of jobs. These thugs have no skills for most jobs nor are most of them looking for jobs. The problems in the inner city have been there in good economic times and bad. If illegal immigrants can come here and find work then apparently there are low-skill jobs out there.
These kids lack direction for the reasons I mentioned. The breakdown of the family IS the root cause. I am not sure how "society" can combat this problem as long as we keep paying people to have kids they do not want while excusing and sometimes ENCOURAGING stupid behavior. If you are unable to provide for and raise a child properly, don't have one.
A child born out of wedlock in Detroit will always face an uphill battle, add in getting involved in drugs or crime and dropping out of school and there is a near guarantee that that you will end up in "the system." Unfortunately there isn't much government or other people can do to change this behavior short of draconian measures that nobody will consider.
Change has to come about from within the community and the first step is recognizing that and stop the nonsense of blaming "society" for all of their problems. Blaming the so-called "white majority" has been the tactic used for decades and it has only made matters worse. |
Warriorfan
Member
Username: Warriorfan
Post Number: 820
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 1:34 pm: | |
quote:Ah, but still you are no better pointing the gun and shooting at them either. Violence breeds Violence. God gave you the 4 weapons you need, your mind, 2 hand and the bible. IF he felt the human race would have needed more, he would have provided our bodies with more.
It's a good thing that we didn't have more men like you around during WWII, Hitler would have ruled the world because pacifist assholes like you would have stood by and done NOTHING to stop him.
I'm glad that the man from Troy is the one who emerged from that situation still breathing. If twats like you had their way, the man from Troy would be dead, the four thugs would be riding around in his stolen car and would go on to victimize COUNTLESS other innocent Detroiters, and the dead victim's wife and kids would be getting a phone call from the police delivering some tragic news. |
Steelworker
Member
Username: Steelworker
Post Number: 993
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 1:50 pm: | |
How about bicycle patrols and beat cops walking around downtown. The thug element seems to be slowly taking hold downtown and made me uncomfortable a few times watching people stop there car in middle of street and fight each other, as well as do many things that a cop just walking around would just say move along(or should say). Ive seen some very wild ass behavior lately downtown. That honest is why ive tended to stay more in midtown and hamtown latley. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 2843
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 1:52 pm: | |
Warriorfan, your assumption that the man from Troy would definitely be dead is purely that, an assumption. The man from Troy KILLED while protecting his material possessions.
The wealthy have as much moral obligation to society as the poor do, if not more. Is it really a greater crime to let a dog go unfed or unsheltered than a human? Aren't the wealthy just as contributory to theft and it's associated violence by acquiring excessive material possessions instead of working to better society and helping those in need?
Pacifist Christians were among the first to raise alarm about Hitler. No one paid attention to them and they ended up in concentration camps.
(Message edited by lilpup on September 29, 2007) |
Sstashmoo
Member
Username: Sstashmoo
Post Number: 440
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 2:03 pm: | |
We're lucky we don't have LA's weather.
Something has to happen in cities like Detroit. Can't even operate most retails. And those that try have to do it inside of a bullet proof enclosure. What the hell kind of society is that? Can't leave anything of value on your front lawn lest it be stolen. Can't leave your house or it will surely be broken into. Car insurance sky high because of car jacking and theft. Anyone have an answer?
This crime being discussed is a classic example of everything that is wrong. Two punks out to kill somebody with a robbery thrown in. They went there to kill. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2232
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 2:09 pm: | |
"Anyone have an answer?"
I think the guy from Troy in the article found the answer. It's not perfect, but it works better than any other ideas people have suggested.
These criminals never attempt to carjack a cop sitting in his squad car. No, the prey on civilians who they don't expect to be able to fight back. Historically, this was a safe bet for them because the law didn't allow civilians to fight back. But now it does, and word will get around soon enough that criminals now run the risk of civilians responding with deadly force. This was never the case before.
Will it end all crime? No, but it will serve an effective deterrent and it's still the best solution anyone has offered to date.
(Message edited by thejesus on September 29, 2007) |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 2844
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 2:09 pm: | |
What the *hell* makes you think they went there to kill? You don't even know if the gun was loaded! It's entirely possible they were just punk kids who wanted to go joyriding, or missed the last bus and wanted to drive home.
That doesn't excuse the attempted robbery, but that's not KILLING. Most who commit crimes with guns don't intend to kill. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3086
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 2:11 pm: | |
quote:Warriorfan, your assumption that the man from Troy would definitely be dead is purely that, an assumption. The man from Troy KILLED while protecting his material possessions.
He was protecting himself as the assailant had pulled a gun. We see that oftentimes cooperating leads to being shot. How is one to know what the intentions of the assailant are?
If you pull a gun on someone while committing a crime you should be prepared to pay the ultimate price for your actions. If anything, the response of the guy from Troy will be a deterrent to others.
Why would you be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacker?
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on September 29, 2007) |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2233
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 2:13 pm: | |
"your assumption that the man from Troy would definitely be dead is purely that, an assumption."
Doesn't matter. Anyone in the guy from Troy's situation has to assume that the criminal's intent IS to kill. That's why the law allows him to respond w/ deadly force if it's reasonable to believe that his life was in danger.
When you stick a gun in someone's face, your subjective intent is irrelevant. Only you objective manifestations matter for the purposes of the victim's right to self defense
(Message edited by thejesus on September 29, 2007) |
Sknutson
Member
Username: Sknutson
Post Number: 953
Registered: 03-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 2:16 pm: | |
Lack of jobs, bad schools, breakdown of families - they are all pieces of the puzzle, not just some monolithic "welfare state". And while it is true that those illegal immigrants can find jobs, there aren't all that many crops to harvest in Detroit. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3087
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 2:24 pm: | |
quote:Lack of jobs, bad schools, breakdown of families - they are all pieces of the puzzle, not just some monolithic "welfare state". And while it is true that those illegal immigrants can find jobs, there aren't all that many crops to harvest in Detroit.
When there WERE more jobs in the Detroit area, what was the excuse then? You think the only jobs immigrants take are agricultural? Thats nonsense. They are taking any array of manual labor jobs including construction. |
Mpow
Member
Username: Mpow
Post Number: 276
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 2:25 pm: | |
this thread reads like a youtube thread. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 2845
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 2:52 pm: | |
"Why would you be willing to give the benefit of the doubt to the attacker?"
Because most people, even gun carrying types, don't kill. When I was held up at gunpoint it scared me, but honestly, in the moment, I never felt like the guy was about to shoot me. If someone intends to kill they won't confront their victim and give them time to pull their concealed.
It's sad that so many here have lost sight of the majority of people's inherent goodness. The lack of compassion is depressing. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3089
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 2:57 pm: | |
quote:Because most people, even gun carrying types, don't kill.
I am sure you don't have any empirical evidence of this to back yourself up but the key word here is "most." If you make the wrong decision, you are dead. I would rather gamble with the life and health of the assailant than the innocent victim. To each their own I guess.
I guess you missed the thread about the attack at the store where the victims cooperated and were shot anyway. Oh wait, you have seen it as you have posted on it. I guess you would have given the same advice to those working in the store. |
Mzdybel
Member
Username: Mzdybel
Post Number: 8
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 3:01 pm: | |
you should never shoot to kill, you should shoot to stay alive! |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 2847
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 3:04 pm: | |
To be honest, PG, I could handle being shot much more easily than handling having killed someone who might have never intended to harm me. Now, if the guy shot me, or someone else, first I'd have no problem responding if able, but there's no way I'm shooting first.
(Message edited by lilpup on September 29, 2007) |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2234
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 3:07 pm: | |
"Because most people, even gun carrying types, don't kill. When I was held up at gunpoint it scared me, but honestly, in the moment, I never felt like the guy was about to shoot me. If someone intends to kill they won't confront their victim and give them time to pull their concealed. "
Lilpup, I'm sorry to say, but you're simply a weak human being. You willingness to HOPE that nothing bad happens to you when you're confronted with evil rather than actually DO something about it makes you less likely to survive, and, accordingly, less likely to reproduce, which means your blood line is likely to be removed from the human gene pool. |
Lilpup
Member
Username: Lilpup
Post Number: 2848
Registered: 06-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 3:13 pm: | |
evil comes in many forms, including those condoning wanton violence against others |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 3091
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 3:14 pm: | |
quote:To be honest, PG, I could handle being shot much more easily than handling having killed someone who might have never intended to harm me. Now, if the guy shot me first I'd have no problem responding if able, but there's no way I'm shooting first.
Well, I appreciate your honesty. I guess the question becomes what if you are not alone? What if your child or other family member is being threatened? Could you handle THEM being killed because of your failure to act? |