 
Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism
Post Number: 670
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 10:28 pm: |    |
It seems like the more things change, the more they stay the same. Metro Detroit and Michigan in 2007, and the exodus of jobs, seem like a megascale version of Flint in the early and mid-80s. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4644
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, September 29, 2007 - 10:57 pm: | |
Hopefully someone is learning a lesson. Fortunately UAW membership is a mere 30% of what it was in the 80s. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 775
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 3:12 am: | |
quote:Fortunately UAW membership is a mere 30% of what it was in the 80s.
Yes, and we can all see how much better off we are today, can't we? Losing 70% of our union jobs has been a terrific thing for Michigan! |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2249
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 10:29 am: | |
I think his argument is that we're lucky there aren't ALL gone....
The whole reason companies are moving jobs to Mexico is because wages are too high here, and it's the UAW that's keeping them high...
Oh, but is it so wrong to want to earn a decent living you say????
No, it's not wrong. The problem is, you don't have the option to earn a decent living when there's people willing to work for less than you are, so the choice between a high paying job and a low paying job becomes a choice between a low paying job and NO job...
quite simple really... |
Chitaku
Member
Username: Chitaku
Post Number: 1623
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 11:35 am: | |
goodbye middle class |
Yvette248
Member
Username: Yvette248
Post Number: 988
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 11:40 am: | |
UofM, Beaumont & Compuware pay their people pretty good also. No one's complaining about white collar wages being too high. |
Mikeg
Member
Username: Mikeg
Post Number: 1196
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 12:15 pm: | |
quote:GM, UAW (2007) repeating history? "Roger & Me" movie.
Obviously, you haven't been reading anything about the details of the 2007 settlement, have you?
If you had, you would know that the UAW leadership HAS learned from past history. It was the confrontational attitude and unwillingness to change that was so stubbornly embraced by the Flint UAW Locals 15-20 years ago that caused GM to build their new products and plants in places like Spring Hill and Lansing instead of Flint.
If you had, you would know that in exchange for the changes to wage rates and retiree healthcare, the 2007 GM-UAW agreement includes promises to build replacement and new products at existing UAW-represented plants in Detroit and elsewhere. How does this suggest an "exodus of jobs"?
This thread gets my nomination for "stupidest thread subject of the year" honors. |
Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism
Post Number: 671
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 12:45 pm: | |
quote:Obviously, you haven't been reading anything about the details of the 2007 settlement, have you?
If you had, you would know that the UAW leadership HAS learned from past history. It was the confrontational attitude and unwillingness to change that was so stubbornly embraced by the Flint UAW Locals 15-20 years ago that caused GM to build their new products and plants in places like Spring Hill and Lansing instead of Flint.
If you had, you would know that in exchange for the changes to wage rates and retiree healthcare, the 2007 GM-UAW agreement includes promises to build replacement and new products at existing UAW-represented plants in Detroit and elsewhere. How does this suggest an "exodus of jobs"?
Obviously you have difficulty reading an entire sentence, instead of fragmenting my statement and run your mouth unnecessarily. First of all, the thread title asks a question of whether GM and the UAW is repeating history (in reference to the movie)? Your proper response should have simply been 'No' - the 2007 contract deal IS NOT repeating history. Why is there a need for you to be condescending? Secondly, if you had read the sentence in its entirety, you would have understood that the "exodus of jobs" applied to the region and the state, not GM itself. Hence, rather than counting to 50 before jacking off onto the keyboard, you choose to rush to display your incompetency in simple comprehension skills.
quote:This thread gets my nomination for "stupidest thread subject of the year" honors.
Your reply gets my nomination for the "most stupid and unwelcomed thread response of all-time" honors. Don't bother taking another shot, because I won't spend more time on it. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 776
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 1:12 pm: | |
quote:Your proper response should have simply been 'No' - the 2007 contract deal IS NOT repeating history.
Who are you to tell him what a proper response should be? It's a public forum, he can respond in whatever way he feels. In any case, he disagreed, and gave REASONS for the disagreement. Something your original post sorely lacked.
quote:Secondly, if you had read the sentence in its entirety, you would have understood that the "exodus of jobs" applied to the region and the state, not GM itself.
Well, you may want to work on that a little, because to me, it seemed clear to me that you were referring to GM in Michigan, given that the sentence was in the context of a thread titled GM, UAW (2007) repeating history? "Roger & Me" movie. You accuse him of incompetence in comprehension yet you can't communicate a simple thought clearly?
But to the point, the current contract is clearly NOT an exodus in jobs, in fact, according to the Flint Journal, a new engine plant (building 3 engines) is to be built in the Flint area to replace the 3800 plant, which is scheduled to close. Those are jobs saved, and possibly more created. Far from an exodus, this contract appears to preserve and possibly create jobs. I fail to see how your comments have any basis in anything we've seen in the past couple weeks, so perhaps instead of spouting off at someone who disagreed, you will try to elaborate further next time.
quote:Your reply gets my nomination for the "most stupid and unwelcomed thread response of all-time" honors.Your reply gets my nomination for the "most stupid and unwelcomed thread response of all-time" honors.
Well, with the jacking off comment, saying he's incompetent when it comes to 'simple comprehension skills' when it seems you are the one who failed at communicating your thoughts clearly, and refusing to listen to any other comments, your comment gets my vote. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2253
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 2:29 pm: | |
"UofM, Beaumont & Compuware pay their people pretty good also. No one's complaining about white collar wages being too high."
White collar salaries are set by regular supply and demand principles...there are fewer people with the ability to perform white collar jobs, so the pay is more competitive
By contrast, just about anyone with two arms and two legs can perform the jobs of the vast majority of auto workers....so what the UAW does is attempt to ARTIFICIALLY keep the supply of people with the ability to perform those jobs very low so they can demand a higher wage...
So the logical choice is to move the jobs where the wages are lower; either out of state our out of the country altogether |
Charlottepaul
Member
Username: Charlottepaul
Post Number: 1763
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 2:43 pm: | |
The "big three" should buy out its workers and rehire cheaper labor to stay competitive. That is the best case scenario for both the current workers and the future of the industry. |
Yvette248
Member
Username: Yvette248
Post Number: 991
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 4:12 pm: | |
Ummm, no. There is lots of outsourcing of technology and lots of foreigners working in the medical and educational fields - so its not a simple supply and demand scenario.
The fact is that companies SHOULD pay workers a fair rate and offer benefits. Anyone who doesn't think so should volunteer for a pay cut in order to "help our competitiveness". |
Darwinism
Member
Username: Darwinism
Post Number: 672
Registered: 06-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 6:15 pm: | |
Scottr: quote:Who are you to tell him what a proper response should be? It's a public forum, he can respond in whatever way he feels.
And ... you're ... related to him ... by way of what? ... to even attempt to justify HIS actions that "he can respond in WHATEVER way he feels." Come on, Scottr, you need to not dip your hands into somebody else's business.
quote:Well, you may want to work on that a little, because to me, it seemed clear to me that you were referring to GM in Michigan, given that the sentence was in the context of a thread titled GM, UAW (2007) repeating history? "Roger & Me" movie. You accuse him of incompetence in comprehension yet you can't communicate a simple thought clearly?
Scottr: Here is the FULL sentence, as can be viewed above, "Metro Detroit and Michigan in 2007, and the exodus of jobs, seem like a megascale version of Flint in the early and mid-80s." Read slowly - Metro Detroit and Michigan ... - no mention of GM in there at all. Period. You've gotta stop being so fixated on the subject line, and trying so hard to defend someone else. Because in essence, you now appear to the world as if you're both connected at the ___.
By the way, I sure hope you're not in the legal defense profession. Your lame attempt to support your ___ is downright pathetic. You sure win my vote for the dumbest defense post on DetroitYes in history. If you've got lots of time of your hands, feel free to jab back, but you'll be sparring with yourself in the ring from here on out. |
Thejesus
Member
Username: Thejesus
Post Number: 2262
Registered: 06-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 6:21 pm: | |
"The fact is that companies SHOULD pay workers a fair rate and offer benefits. Anyone who doesn't think so should volunteer for a pay cut in order to "help our competitiveness"."
Let's say there are 2 people competing for 1 job and person A is willing to do the job for $20 bucks an hour. That would mean that person A would have a $20/hr job and person B would be unemployed. So what does person B do? He offers to do it for $15 bucks an hour.
And who are you to tell person B he has to starve when he's perfectly willing to work for less money than person A is? |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4649
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 8:39 pm: | |
Scott, deunionization is a good thing for Michigan, 100% being the goal at which the playing field levels with competitors that are not unionized.
Thejesus, your scenario only makes sense if there is only one job. It is naive and shows an ignorance of basic economics and capitalism. a balance of competitive wages for competitive productivity results. If you were correct, Japans' auto industry and work force would be in desperate shape. |
Frankg
Member
Username: Frankg
Post Number: 27
Registered: 08-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 9:35 pm: | |
the problem is the competition is with china where wages are less than $1/hour. Unionization or not we can't compete with that. |
Deteamster
Member
Username: Deteamster
Post Number: 51
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 9:51 pm: | |
Yes! Let's race to the bottom.
I mean, if someone with two legs, two arms, and half a brain can perform the work, and plenty people in the world are looking for work, let's lower the bar a little. Just enough food to not starve, and just enough rags in the winter to not freeze. White collar gets extra rags and meat since they're more skilled. Don't like it, well then NO job for you!
Oh yeah, and I'm glad I've learned from this thread that unions are just about artificially inflating wages, and apparently nothing else, and thus should be eliminated.
Oh, and the name of this board should be changed to, "MiddleAgedWhiteSuburbanRepublicanguysYES!"
because I've noticed this board is more of that than anything, or anyone, from Detroit.
(Message edited by DETeamster on September 30, 2007) |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4671
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 10:12 pm: | |
Still too narrow of a view. Not all labor can, or will, be outsourced to China. They are not capable, or motivated to do much of the work properly over there (witness poor quality, recalls, etc of late). The low end will go there (a good thing) and more challenging items will stay stateside...assuming the unions can be broken. |
Lefty2
Member
Username: Lefty2
Post Number: 227
Registered: 07-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 10:13 pm: | |
Does - supply and demand, free market competition, free to choose enter into the equation.
In the end, the market will decide and ALWAYS win. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 777
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 10:18 pm: | |
quote:deunionization is a good thing for Michigan, 100% being the goal at which the playing field levels with competitors that are not unionized.
So, in short, you're saying Michigan will rebound when we're paid 57 cents an hour like the Chinese. Wow. Genius plan you've got there.
Really, what industry are you in that you think you're immune to the effects of something like that?
quote:White collar gets extra rags and meat since they're more skilled.
While I know you're being sarcastic, I have yet to meet a white collar worker that has any more skills than a blue collar worker. All they really have is a piece of paper that says they paid a lot of money for that piece of paper, so now they should be paid more to do less. No additional skills, no additional intelligence, nothing that makes them any better than anyone else. Yet for some reason, they think they should have the right to tell others they are lazy and should be paid less. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4675
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 10:32 pm: | |
Think Japan as a reference, not China Scott. Non union, decent and appropriate wages and benefits. They are kicking our butts in this competition, not China. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 778
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 10:34 pm: | |
quote:Not all labor can, or will, be outsourced to China
really? name some things that won't be affected by outsourcing, directly or indirectly. Either it can go over there, or it will be hurt by the decreased buying power of the American people. A nation's economy will not last long on pushing paper around and selling things to each other. Value needs to be added to raw materials, if you don't do that, then your economy will falter.
quote:They are not capable, or motivated to do much of the work properly over there (witness poor quality, recalls, etc of late).
not capable? hardly. They've had their problems, yes - but the early Japanese cars in the US had similar quality problems, it was entirely the fuel economy that made them popular. Quality came later. Do you really think China isn't going to work to eliminate those problems? They've taken a huge black eye recently, and these high profile recalls will only make them work harder at quality than they would have if it had been a few low profile recalls.
Also, it may be primarily 'low end' manufacturing going there now (why you think even THAT is a good thing, i have no idea), but it is already leading to 'high end' work going to China.
not motivated - what BS. it has no basis in reality whatsoever. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4680
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 10:47 pm: | |
They are communists, in time, the workers will have no motivation to be productive (once they are accustomed to the current wages.
I did not say that outsourcing would not affect industry, just that everything will not be outsourced. Some of the effects of outsourcing are strongly positive for the US. Public traded companies, owned by investors make higher profits translating to return on investment and more investment. Before you claim that only the rich invest, check your own savings and investments. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 779
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 10:48 pm: | |
quote:Think Japan as a reference, not China Scott. Non union, decent and appropriate wages and benefits. They are kicking our butts in this competition, not China.
You are sadly misinformed. Plants in Japan actually are union. Do try again.
While I haven't been able to find it, a few years back I read an article about what sounded like the story of Flint. Birthplace of one of the world's largest automakers, thousands were once employed by the company, the entire economy dependant on it. Then the company begins to pull out, leaving unemployment and empty factories behind.
The actual city? Toyota City, Japan.
In any case, here and now, it is not Japan that we have to fear. Our jobs aren't going to Japan, or hell, even Mexico. They go to China. And you're helping it along, aren't you? |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4682
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 10:53 pm: | |
I do stand corrected...they have unions as you point out...much less harmful unions, but unions. Alas, this will prove their undoing as well in time. They are just earlier in the process. Hee is the good news...if we deunionize, we will be at an advantage over them until they do the same. Even more reason to do it.
(Message edited by ccbatson on September 30, 2007) |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 780
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 11:03 pm: | |
quote:They are communists, in time, the workers will have no motivation to be productive (once they are accustomed to the current wages.
You apparently have some misconceptions over how the Chinese economy works. They are just as motivated, more so, because there are over a billion mouths to feed.
Also, the prospect of a bullet in your head is a good motivating tool as well.
quote:Before you claim that only the rich invest, check your own savings and investments.
Putting aside that you use a circular argument, actually, after losing my job, my savings is exactly NOTHING. Investments? HA! Where the hell would any money for that come from? 401k? HA! you, probably being rich, assume everyone has such things. Unfortunately, they increasingly do NOT.
You seriously need a good dose of reality, cause your dreamworld is completely out of sync with the real one most of us live in these days. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4686
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 11:10 pm: | |
A prospect of a bullet in the head is a very poor motivator when what is desired is exceptional productivity. Freedom for earned prosperity is the best motivator, and Capitalism is the vehicle for it.
Sorry to hear about your current financial situation. I can't comment on it without knowing details, nor would you want me to. Suffice it to say that ambition and hard work, always pay off in the end. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 781
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 11:12 pm: | |
quote:Hee is the good news...if we deunionize, we will be at an advantage over them until they do the same. Even more reason to do it.
Again, it is not Japan we have to fear, it is China. An advantage over Japan is more or less useless at this point. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4689
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 11:14 pm: | |
?? Regaining market share is useless?? |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4690
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 11:15 pm: | |
Maybe to you, not to many millions of US citizens depending on the auto industry directly and indirectly. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 782
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 11:34 pm: | |
quote:A prospect of a bullet in the head is a very poor motivator when what is desired is exceptional productivity. Freedom for earned prosperity is the best motivator, and Capitalism is the vehicle for it.
True, but keep in mind that these manufacturing jobs are the closest thing to capitalism they have ever seen over there. To them, this is an opportunity they have never had before. If anything, they are more motivated than our own people.
quote:Sorry to hear about your current financial situation. I can't comment on it without knowing details, nor would you want me to. Suffice it to say that ambition and hard work, always pay off in the end.
Thanks, and of course I don't want to share my particular details, but without wishing to sound egotistical, ambition, hard work, or even intelligence have never been the problems, rather, it was the lack of available positions in the companies I worked for, who were, like many companies, eliminating jobs. Sometimes it meant i lost the my own job, sometimes it was just clear that with the reductions, no better positions would be opening up, so i moved on. It was never due to lack of ability or willingness to work, it was all about factors outside of my control, things that you seem to advocate now. So please understand, all this does hit close to home. |
Scottr
Member
Username: Scottr
Post Number: 783
Registered: 07-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, September 30, 2007 - 11:39 pm: | |
Market share does not help me. Jobs do. And those jobs are going to China, not Japan. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 4696
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, October 01, 2007 - 12:35 am: | |
As I said, in the end, true ambition and hard work always prevail. I have never seen it otherwise.
It does ultimately help you to have a strong market share for the auto industry. Via trickle down...stronger economy=more investment and consumption. More consumption (in all sectors)=more jobs. |
|