  Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 165 Registered: 09-2007 |
What would be the best type of development for this gem? Perosnally, the only thing it seems right for in this day and age is Luxury Apartments. However, the market just isn't right for it yet. What do you think would best fit as a development plan for the Book Tower. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2302 Registered: 06-2006 |
I don't really care much if it stays commercial or goes residential... I just hope someone washes the outside at some point in the next decade.. | ||
Drjeff Member Username: Drjeff Post Number: 17 Registered: 06-2007 |
I agree- that building would be one of the coolest in downtown if it weren't covered in smudge. | ||
Quinn Member Username: Quinn Post Number: 1488 Registered: 01-2005 |
Where else in this world could you have plants growing on your fire escape...on the 75th floor?•• | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 5100 Registered: 10-2003 |
75th? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 2305 Registered: 06-2006 |
anyone have any historic color (or B&W) photos of the building without the dirt on it? | ||
Jnot Member Username: Jnot Post Number: 9 Registered: 01-2007 |
the book tower is supposed to be in terrible condition inside. a few months ago, you could take the elevator up to the abandoned half-renovated top floor, replete with empty liquor bottles and cigarette butts (in a functioning office building!) also, development there is an ongoing saga of neglect, failed initiatives and bankruptcy. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 224 Registered: 10-2006 |
You have to figure though, that when a building is renovated almost all of the insides are torn out of it anyway. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 245 Registered: 07-2007 |
I believe that the appraisal summary suggested that the Highest and Best Use for the Book T would be.... Multi mixed use? Guessing, Retail 1st, Offices, then Residential, If I were the appraiser that would be my guestimate in this market. Maybe Parking on the first floor??? huh yeah? | ||
Kslice Member Username: Kslice Post Number: 170 Registered: 04-2007 |
I always thought the BT was empty until I saw some people coming out (who weren't homeless). Any tenants of that building should demand that the management do something with the building or move out. And I'd guess 99.9% of out of towner/suburbanites think the buildings abandoned when they look at it. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 168 Registered: 09-2007 |
Lefty, after posting this thread, I also thought that Mixed use development would be best for the Book. However, I'm not sure where the parking would go. | ||
Lefty2 Member Username: Lefty2 Post Number: 247 Registered: 07-2007 |
I guess the same place as before it was operating twenty years ago or.. Some Parking on first second floors, underground, will cost some bucks but hey what doesn't. | ||
Detroit313 Member Username: Detroit313 Post Number: 491 Registered: 02-2006 |
The Book Tower just need investment. There is a market in Detroit for high-rise living, just very slow on the process of other major cities. The Book Caddy was just a start. Once it's finished, watch the block take off. <313> | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 6635 Registered: 02-2004 |
There is no Book Tower development. Those Yankee Yorkers slumlords can't even pay their electrical bills. Look how exploited that building is. Someone should buy the Book Tower and fix it up. | ||
Detroitrise Member Username: Detroitrise Post Number: 172 Registered: 09-2007 |
I know that Danny. I was just trying to figure out what would be best for the Book Tower considering that it would take a Hail Mary for it to even be considered for redevelopment. | ||
Rrl Member Username: Rrl Post Number: 905 Registered: 12-2003 |
How many elevators does the Book Tower have, and in how many banks (columns)? Mixed use generally requires separate elevator banks. If the existing building doesn't have sufficient lifts, it will likely have to remain single use. | ||
Fareastsider Member Username: Fareastsider Post Number: 619 Registered: 08-2006 |
6 regular and one freight I believe. | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 2508 Registered: 10-2003 |
In two banks of elevators. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 931 Registered: 01-2005 |
The bankruptcy case has been dismissed. There is one (1) working elevator. The building will never be renovated, restored, or anything but abandoned and vandalized until it is demolished. Sorry folks, but dream on. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4180 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: whatever components have any salvage value, then yet another unneeded parking lot. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 225 Registered: 10-2006 |
At least it has a semi successful bar on the ground level. Though if the power keeps getting shut off I'd doubt theyd be there much longer. So who actually owns BT now? | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 92 Registered: 06-2007 |
If you take the communications equipment off the roof, it almost looks like the penthouse apartment from "Meet Joe Black" that Anthony Hopkins called home. I don't know the building in New York though. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 933 Registered: 01-2005 |
Who owns it? Your guess is as good as anyone's. The ownership is subject to a lawsuit involving several parties and is replete with allegations of fraud all around. That building is a magnet for stupid out-of-state developer/owners or would be owners. The greater fool theory at work, overtime. | ||
Oldredfordette Member Username: Oldredfordette Post Number: 2809 Registered: 02-2004 |
Pure Detroit had a beautiful hand colored postcard from the 30's of the Book - if I can find my copy I'll scan it and post it. I just hope they fix the elevators. I never prayed as hard or as often as when I had to visit the Book Building. One time, the elevator just went to the top floor, then the bottom, about 8 times, without stopping, before finally letting me off at 20. I kissed the filthy floor when I escaped. (then had several cleansing Maker's Mark) | ||
Expatriot Member Username: Expatriot Post Number: 5 Registered: 09-2007 |
The Book Bldg. postcard and a lot of other cool ones are on this site: http://www.rootsweb.com/~usgen web/mi/wayne/postcards/ppcs-de troit.html | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1352 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: What is your reasoning behind this? Specifically, why is this such a money pit? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4193 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:Look at it another way... How many profitable going concerns have their electrical service cut for nonpayment? Lack of sufficient paying tenants, usually, is the main reason for business failure. I remember older downtown buildings similar to the Book Tower during the 1950s or 1960s in Milwaukee. They seemed so "old" and obsolete then (hallway doors with transoms for ventilation?), but still, many established doctors, various agents, and attorneys, etc. had their offices there. A few years later, such office buildings already were losing their tenants after the older doctors retired and potential tenants apparently settled in newer high-rise digs on the north or west sides far away from downtown and closer to their clients, patients, etc. Obviously, the Detroit downtown office buildings suffered the same way the past half century or so. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 2958 Registered: 10-2003 |
Do you think The Book-Cadillac Westin will want a giant abandoned tower looming over it? Or will pressure for something to be done start being applied when it opens its doors? Or will desirebility of location next to the beautiful hotel cause redevelopment of the building to become a real possibility? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4194 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote:The Book Cadillac is not a person and, thus, doesn't want anything. If the B-C owners feel so strongly about other buildings, why don't they just BUY them and take care of business themselves? | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 298 Registered: 08-2006 |
Someone say Book Tower? Some shots... http://www.ryansouthenphotogra phy.exposuremanager.com/p/detr oit/booktowerfs22 http://www.flickr.com/photos/s outhen/430644706/in/set-720575 94049563033/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/s outhen/132007569/in/set-720575 94058185186/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/s outhen/248226910/in/set-720575 94058185186/ You would hope that a building as prominent as the Book Tower on a street like Washington Boulevard could find an owner that has the means to do something with it. I think it could be a great mixed use development but the right owners havent found it yet. Hopefully a successful Book Cadillac will lead to further investment along Washington and the Book Tower can be part of that. | ||
Johnlodge Member Username: Johnlodge Post Number: 2959 Registered: 10-2003 |
"The Book Cadillac is not a person and, thus, doesn't want anything. If the B-C owners feel so strongly about other buildings, why don't they just BUY them and take care of business themselves?" The Book Cadillac is not a person, however, the Book-Cadillac Westin is a company, and companies do want things. The prospect of them just BUYING it and taking care of business themselves is exactly what my post was insinuation. | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 98 Registered: 06-2007 |
Is anyone aware of how much Pagan paid for the Book? I know KSI lent about $4mil but it must have been purchased for more than that. Seriously though, if you got 400 of your classmates from college and high school, friends and relatives together and each contributed $10,000, you own the Book Tower free and clear. Say you can't contribute $10K up front? Capital One will offer you a personal loan for probably $400 bucks a month for 5 or 6 years for that amount. The only real question is how much would the rehab cost? How much is maintenance, insurance and taxes? What use do you put it towards? | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2436 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: Actually, that is 5 questions. And they are all rather important, don't you think? | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 100 Registered: 06-2007 |
Absolutely important. The type of development is dictated by the expenditures associated with running it, not with purchasing it really. Without knowing these costs, you can't determine the best type of development for the building. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 913 Registered: 11-2003 |
The Book Tower is certainly obsolete for any kind of profitable office use. Like the Whitney, 90% of the building's office suites have had no significant updating for over 30 years. Most suites have ugly drop ceilings, cheap partitioning, and threadbare carpeting. Gut renovation would be necessary to attract any kind of tenant other than hand-to-mouth non-profits. Plus, the floorplates in the tower portion are small and inefficient for tenants that need more than 2500 sq. ft or so. The building could never be Class A space, and with the Class B market downtown at $16 sq. ft. or lower, renovations could simply never be paid for, even assuming you could attract tenants. All should not be lost though. Contrary to 3rdworld's opinion, I think that a residential re-use is a possibility. It's a 37 story building. It has unique views from its upper floors. In any market, good views are rare and in demand. These views are also rare because they aren't building buildings this tall in the Detroit area anymore. There is value in this demand. The small floorplates in the tower (1-3 units per floor) can provide a valuable exclusivity as well. The Book Building portion and the lower floors of the tower provide an opportunity for a live/work redesign. Who knows, with the opening of the B-C, and maybe a Quicken Loans relocation up the block, fortunes for the Book Tower could change. It would be a huge project, and it might be a pipe dream, but but a skilled and courageous developer could really create an iconic project for Detroit. Time is running out though. And as for offices, forget about it. | ||
Expatriot Member Username: Expatriot Post Number: 7 Registered: 09-2007 |
I always thought that the Book and the David Stott building would make great apartments/condos because of their small floor plates. 2500 sq. feet with a 360 view. Can you imagine what such an apartment would cost in Manhattan? Unfortunately Detroiters never really took to apartment living like other big cities. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4198 Registered: 10-2004 |
Detroit has always been primarily a city whose residents lived in one- or two-family houses. Apartments have been relatively rare. Even parts of downtown had those smaller flats or apartments in the second or third floors over retail space--or in regular one- and two-family houses very near the heart of downtown before development, decay, and construction of downtown freeway accesses took many of them out. | ||
Masterblaster Member Username: Masterblaster Post Number: 92 Registered: 03-2005 |
QUESTION FOR SWINGLINE, In Chicago and New York, are those pre-depression skyscrapers useless like the Detroit ones. Do you know if the pre-depression skyscrapers are in use as office building? If not as office space, what are they used for?? Is the Empire State Building useless? Livernoisyard, Apartment buildings are not that rare in the parts of Detroit built prior to the mid-1930's. There are/were countless small apartment buildings in neighborhoods. Many of these have been demolished. Others sit in decay. For example, the Dexter-Davison Neighborhood has numerous small and mid-rise apartments amongst the one and two-family houses. There were very, very few highrise apartment buildings that were built in Detroit, though. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 5469 Registered: 08-2004 |
Those that were, were mainly located along the "Gold Coast" along Jefferson between the MacArthur Bridge and Manoogian Mansion. And of course there is the dense cluster of apartment buildings near Palmer Park. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 934 Registered: 01-2005 |
Swingline: You're right. Book Tower will never again be used as offices. I think you're wrong about its viability as apartments, but you have made the correct arguments for that use. The owner of the Stott is trying to do what you suggest should be done (or could be done) with the Book Tower. The last I heard there is no financing available for the Stott and the intended conversion will not take place. The Stott would be a far easier deal than the Book. And the owner of the Stott is a pretty smart guy, far more so than the idiots involved with the Book. An owner of the BT faces the same problems: (i)exhorbitant costs of renovation, (ii) very soft if any market, and certainly no market for all the units that could be created there, (iii) no possibility of conventional financing and (iv) little possibility of tax shelter financing as supports the B-C (your money and mine.) If there was a booming market, the costs of rehab would make the deal uneconomical insofar as the rents would have to be so high that even a high-demand market couldn't support the deal. The BT has been in financial distress for almost 40 years. Traveler's Ins, foreclosed its mortgage about 20 years ago and was desparately seeking a buyer before the redemption period ended. They talked to me (and several others) and proposed to sell the bldg for $300,000. I told them they would have to pay me a lot more than that to take it; that's when the bldg was fairly well occupied. Everyone else I know turned down the same deal except John Lambrecht, and I suspect he paid less than $300,000 and Traveler's may just have given it to him (he was smart enough to know not to pay anything for it) just to get off their books and to avoid taking title to it. And, over the years, the various owners have stiffed Det Edison for at least a million bucks in unpaid electricity bills. That's another fascinating (to me) story and proves that Det Ed was not nearly as smart as the various owners. Things have gotten a 100 times worse since then. | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 104 Registered: 06-2007 |
Actually, I could think of a few tax shelter plans where the Book could fit in right off the top of my head. Regardless, without knowing the full rehab costs and upkeep costs, even speculation as residential or mixed-use is pretty irrelevant. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 915 Registered: 11-2003 |
Masterblaster, I'm not sure what prompts your questions, but in any event, you should know that office to residential conversions have been occurring all over the country. Things have slowed a bit because of the softening condo markets (except NYC), but thousands of residential units have been created in former pre-war office buildings in dozens of cities. Statistics I have seen put the number of units in the last decade at over 9500 for Chicago and 4500 for Los Angeles. I haven't seen any numbers for New York, but I'd wager it's been more than 50,000 units. In Chicago, the activity has been mostly in the East Loop and N. Michigan areas. (E.g., Palmolive/Playboy building) New York has seen the activity in an around Wall Street. Many pre-war buildings remain viable for office use. But even in thriving cities, these conversions are often the best way to maximize income-producing value. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 937 Registered: 01-2005 |
Umcs: Actually, I don't know that much about tax shelter deals, especially under the current Code. However, since you do, why not determine the renovation/rehab costs and do the deal if it makes sense. I will never be afraid to admit I was wrong. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 4199 Registered: 10-2004 |
I remember reading some older encyclopedia article about Detroit--probably from the 1950s or 1960s. It described Detroit as being a city with a flat terrain (glacial lake bed) consisting of predominately single or double family homes. Some large cities have the vast majority of their residents living in condos or apartments. That's not so for the city of Detroit and even less prevalent for most, if not, all of its suburbs. View the 1949 CULMA aerials and you will notice how many single family houses that have been demoed or burnt virtually throughout Detroit including the inner city downtown. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on October 05, 2007) | ||
Expatriot Member Username: Expatriot Post Number: 8 Registered: 09-2007 |
San Francisco has also done a lot to turn pre-war office buildings into residential units. This has the added advantage of bringing people to neighborhoods that ordinarily would empty out after 6 o'clock. | ||
Expatriot Member Username: Expatriot Post Number: 9 Registered: 09-2007 |
It seems to me that buildings like this could be rehabbed by urban pioneers who would have ownership a single floor and could move interior walls and outfit as they saw fit, as long as the basic plumbing and wiring were up to snuff. I suspect that the real thing preventing this is a bureaucracy that insists everything "be up to code" or requires some sort of a one-to-one parking ratio. (I have met a lot of young people, even in Detroit, that would like to live without the necessity of owning a car.) We have unfortunately "zoned" ourselves to death in this country. | ||
Bobj Member Username: Bobj Post Number: 2443 Registered: 11-2003 |
It is a beautiful building that I hope doesn't go empty due to bankruptcy or litigation of some sort. It really needs someone with a vision and access to capital, but could be outstanding! | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 939 Registered: 01-2005 |
Bobj: that would happen in a heartbeat if the bldg were in Manhattan or Chicago. (However, the bldg would never have degenerated to its present condition if it were in either of those cities.) Detroit is loaded with people w/ money and vision, but most/all are practical (that's why they've kept their money) and their vision is based on experience and devoid of emotion. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 5113 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Yeah but with out a pair of grapes to take risks wont a damn thing get done... | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 931 Registered: 11-2005 |
Southen, I've said it once, and I'll say it again: http://www.flickr.com/photos/s outhen/132007569/in/set-720575 94058185186/ Is one of my favorite pics of a Detroit building ever. Simply gorgeous. Is that from Trolley Plaza? | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 933 Registered: 11-2005 |
Wait, just saw that it's from the Broderick. What kind of zoom do you have to get that kind of detail from so far away? My god. | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 302 Registered: 08-2006 |
Thanks. I had a 300 mm zoom for that shot. | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 107 Registered: 06-2007 |
3rdworldcity, I wouldn't do any residential or mixed-use project in Detroit with the current governmental administration. The business risks are not the numbers; it's the people in power and their policies that cause me pause. | ||
Eric_c Member Username: Eric_c Post Number: 1049 Registered: 11-2003 |
Care to expand on that, Umcs? | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 109 Registered: 06-2007 |
Eric, Not particularly no. Mother said if you can't say anything nice, don't say it. We're all aware of the challenges Detroit government presents. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1939 Registered: 11-2003 |
Always nice to have some pictures to go along with a discussion...     | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 115 Registered: 06-2007 |
Without belaboring the point, I think Model D entrepreneur blogger Thomas Meloche points directly to the problem here in the metro Detroit region. I'd refer everyone to his 3rd post, titled "I wish we were so stupid!" http://www.metromodemedia.com/ blogs/bloggers/TMeloche0037a.a spx | ||
Viziondetroit Member Username: Viziondetroit Post Number: 1146 Registered: 11-2003 |
southen hey, email me kevin at crushmediagroup dot com | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 303 Registered: 08-2006 |
Rhymeswithrawk: not sure if you'd be interested or not but I have that Book shot you like on my print site. http://www.ryansouthenphotogra phy.exposuremanager.com/p/detr oit_at_night/booktowerbrody47 |
