  Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 5003 Registered: 10-2003 |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071005/NEWS05/710050338/0/RSS07 THE RAMADAN FAST A test of body and faith Muslim athletes sacrifice sunrise to sunset October 5, 2007 BY NIRAJ WARIKOO FREE PRESS STAFF WRITER Hunched over, clutching his stomach, Saeed Saleh gasps for air. The cross-country runner has stopped suddenly during a practice sprint around the track at Fordson High in Dearborn. "I couldn't breathe," the senior panted. "It came out of nowhere. I wasn't able to keep on going."  Ok, so why is it ok for Muslims football players at a PUBLIC school to pray, but the ACLU gets all up in arms over Christian players praying before games? Is this a double standard or something more? http://www.usatoday.com/sports/preps/football/2007-10-04-coach-prayer_N.htm | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10399 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: The students are leading themsleves in prayer. The Christians can do the same it's just that they don't seem to have as much conviction. Please cite and article where Christian students were not allowed to pray amongst themselves prior to a game. I comment them for having that much conviction in their beliefs. It is much more honorable to live by their beliefs than only consider them on Sunday morning like all too many. | ||
Chuckjav Member Username: Chuckjav Post Number: 195 Registered: 09-2007 |
Hey now - politics & religion aside - the Fordson Tractors kick much ass; serious athletic tradition at that school. Good Luck Fordson! | ||
Hockey_player Member Username: Hockey_player Post Number: 364 Registered: 10-2003 |
Is "conviction" really a worthwhile benchmark to judge others by? The Taliban have conviction, so did the hijackers on 9/11 about their religious beliefs. Conviction isn't some noble characteristic in itself. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10400 Registered: 10-2003 |
I have more respect for someone that lives by their religious beliefs (of course these are kids, not Taliban) than the overly preachy religious people that think their religious service is done by sitting in a church a few hours a week. Funny how people complain about how messed up kids are but kids that but their religious beliefs first are certainly going to be villified. | ||
Detroitsuperfly Member Username: Detroitsuperfly Post Number: 75 Registered: 07-2005 |
The ACLU typically handles cases someone brings to them. People who are personally involved. Rarely do they handle cases where they instigate the complaint themselves. For example; When Rush Limbaugh had privacy issues and Sean Hnnity had 1st amendment issues. The ACLU represented them. They didn't act independently without them. If you know someone personally involved with the Fordson prayer issue, encourage them to contact the ACLU. Otherwise, stop complaining about the ACLU. BTW- there are plenty of Christian prayers before public school football games. (Message edited by detroitsuperfly on October 05, 2007) | ||
Hockey_player Member Username: Hockey_player Post Number: 365 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm not vilifying anyone, just addressing the contrarian streak some people have that consists of kneejerk approval of what other people do while criticizing the same thing in the dominant culture. Had a Christian team done the same thing many here would be calling them zealots. But because it's the exotic "other" suddenly a double standard applies. And really, what's wrong with people spending only a few hours in church per week? Many people are busy living their lives, and apart from the monks and priests, religion generally does not require people to spend most of their waking hours focused on it. People should be judged on their deeds, not how often they spend in a church/mosque/in prayer. A lot of people spend hours in church but are the biggest assholes around. It doesn't necessarily equate nobleness. | ||
Kevgoblu Member Username: Kevgoblu Post Number: 20 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Ok, so why is it ok for Muslims football players at a PUBLIC school to pray, but the ACLU gets all up in arms over Christian players praying before games?" Where did you get this idea from Patrick? We, as a team, went to church before every game and said team prayers after. This was quite a few years ago, but the method was the same, with a team member leading the prayer so as to maintain the whole seperation of church/state thing. Most of the guys I knew from other schools did the same thing. You must not have been an athlete. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 10402 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I disagree. If Christian kids want to get together for prayer before a game more power to them. quote: My comment was more targeted to the people that spend a few hours a week in curch but do nothing to live by the ideals they or their religion preach. Those that follow their religion in their actions don't fit into that group. I should have been more clear. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 5004 Registered: 10-2003 |
http://www.laaclu.org/News/200 4/August24TangiSettlement.htm | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3408 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: That sums it up for me! This forum is rife with the very thing you have eloquently summarized here. Good post Hockey_player. | ||
Detroitsuperfly Member Username: Detroitsuperfly Post Number: 78 Registered: 07-2005 |
-Patrick Again, as you erroneously feel the ACLU is exhibiting a double standard why not get someone personally involved in the issue to request the ACLU to represent them? The ACLU has represented MANY Christian groups. Anything else you need cleared up? | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 489 Registered: 08-2006 |
quote: When persons in positions of authority engage in this sort of behavior, it becomes coercive. This is not about "when Muslims pray" vs. "when Christians pray." The stronger analogy lies in why a single/unmarried teacher having a sexual relationship with an 18-year-old student is different than two 18-year-old students engaging in the same behavior. (edited to clarify all participants being of legal age) (Message edited by zephyrprocess on October 05, 2007) | ||
Umcs Member Username: Umcs Post Number: 102 Registered: 06-2007 |
Patrick, Our football team used to pray before games too. In fact, the coaches led the prayers. No issues here. If they want to pray, let them. If they start announcing it from the PA system, that's a different story. | ||
Detroitnerd Member Username: Detroitnerd Post Number: 1488 Registered: 07-2004 |
Re: Society being unfair toward Christians. This is the most ludicrous canard ever to circulate in American society. Yeah, right. Call me when you're back to worshipping in the sewers to hide from the Roman cops who wanna hurl you to the lions. Sheesh. | ||
Jelk Member Username: Jelk Post Number: 4654 Registered: 10-2003 |
Theologically, I've never understood the praying before a game thing. At the risk of sounding glib, am I expected to believe God favors Fordson or any other high school in interscholastic competition? Does anyone believe these prayers bring them or anyone else closer to salvation? It is a kind of soft blasphemy kind of like the WWJD movement. What would Jesus do? For starters, probably not purchase a rubber bracelet to remind him how to behave. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 484 Registered: 08-2007 |
No, but those rubber bracelets may have come in handy at the crucifixion. | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 896 Registered: 11-2003 |
"No, but those rubber bracelets may have come in handy at the crucifixion." Weren't you the person who didn't like any criticism of the bum newspaper? Here you are making a sick joke about something that many people consider to be an important part of their lives. By the way, how's that newspaper idea coming along? Or was that just a bunch of BS talk and nothing more? At least you sounded like a caring person. I couldn't care less about your joke, it's your hypocrisy that I find annoying. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 485 Registered: 08-2007 |
I went to Catholic schools, so I'm allowed. Newspaper idea has stalled; last time I checked we were all trying to coordinate a meeting...didn't hear back from anyone. Where does the hypocrisy fit in? What's more hypocritical is claiming to be a devout Christian and seeing homeless as less than human. I wasn't out there referring to people as bums or filthy animals. Doesn't a true spirit of Christianity mean more than a recorded (probable) event in Christian history? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 3421 Registered: 03-2006 |
quote: Yeah, and I know the humanitarian libs are always helping out the poor and the homeless. | ||
Chuckjav Member Username: Chuckjav Post Number: 205 Registered: 09-2007 |
Bottom Line: Whoever the football players were praying to; Buddah, Jesus, Moses or Allah....apparently, it worked - Fordson beat Dearborn on Friday night. PS I'd be willing to bet that these young people are American citizens - free to be just like you and me. | ||
Karl_jr Member Username: Karl_jr Post Number: 99 Registered: 06-2007 |
I wish all I had to worry about was the damn football teams praying | ||
Themax Member Username: Themax Post Number: 850 Registered: 09-2005 |
What are they praying for? That their god help them to win a football game? That their god help them destroy the other team? knock down the other guy? How preposterous. And if they lose?? Is that some test of faith? Or maybe they didn't fast long enough? Or maybe they're going to look for the weak believer who was the cause for their losing the game. Have a little auto-da-fey. | ||
Ericdetfan Member Username: Ericdetfan Post Number: 198 Registered: 02-2007 |
usually, when a group prays before a game, it is not meant to ask for favor over the team or anything like that. Usually, its just for protection against injury and that everyone does the best that they can and to have fun. Its all about faith in what the person believes. Win or loose, they know that God has a plan for them and if it did not include winning that particular game, oh well. If they are strong in their beliefs, it doesn't hurt their faith to loose a game. | ||
Rugbyman Member Username: Rugbyman Post Number: 129 Registered: 06-2005 |
They're praying because it's Ramadan and they're Muslim. That's a little like asking why Christians pray before dinner. Read the article before mouthing off. Stop being a bigot. | ||
Ericdetfan Member Username: Ericdetfan Post Number: 199 Registered: 02-2007 |
I should have mentioned that I was speaking from a Christian perspective. I cannot speak for anyone elses motivations. | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 527 Registered: 11-2006 |
So the photo was about a prayer, which I have seen almost every team do, no matter where I have been, but the whole article was about fasting and Ramadan and how it affects the players. So for the most part this thread makes no sense. | ||
Detroitsuperfly Member Username: Detroitsuperfly Post Number: 89 Registered: 07-2005 |
"Yeah, and I know the humanitarian libs are always helping out the poor and the homeless." I volunteer with my church at the Detroit rescue mission once a month. | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 489 Registered: 08-2007 |
6nois, You nailed it! | ||
Crystal Member Username: Crystal Post Number: 38 Registered: 05-2007 |
Now I'm confused. I thought prayer was prohibited on the grounds of public schools, because of separation of church and state. I thought that for a school to allow prayer would be seen as the school's endorsement of a religion. Is that not the case? | ||
Oakmangirl Member Username: Oakmangirl Post Number: 491 Registered: 08-2007 |
"One nation, under God..." I hear it every day, so what's the diff? Our currency reads "In God We Trust". Why is this blurring of lines news? I've also heard that the cafeterias in Dearborn Schools observe religious dietary needs as well...my question is what does any of this have to do with Detroit? | ||
Mauser765 Member Username: Mauser765 Post Number: 1976 Registered: 01-2004 |
"Those that follow their religion in their actions" In respect to Christianity, this comment displays either naïveté or ignorance of the mechanics of that particular religion. Since the basis of the Christian religion is the concept that all humans are inescapably mired in sinful behaviors, and as a result no one person could ever be superior to another - then looking for people to behave in a perfected "christ" like manner is really missing the point by a mile. All Christians are sinners. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 2793 Registered: 11-2005 |
quote: From the ACLU website: quote: | ||
Crystal Member Username: Crystal Post Number: 39 Registered: 05-2007 |
Thanks, Pam, that helps to explain. I would think that a teacher (or staff member on the loudspeaker) leading prayer in the classroom would definitely be coercive, but students organizing themselves in prayer would not be, or would much less be coercive. A coach would not and should not lead or participate in prayer on school grounds. | ||
Detroitsuperfly Member Username: Detroitsuperfly Post Number: 94 Registered: 07-2005 |
"Our currency reads "In God We Trust"" Technically, our currency is is a federal reserve note. The federal reserve is a private organization. Although, their chair and board are nominated by the prez and confirmed by congress. | ||
Goblue Member Username: Goblue Post Number: 438 Registered: 03-2007 |
Where did you read that the ACLU objects to players praying?•••• Another urban myth!! Kids pray every day in school...especially before a test! The issue is...do you want an agent of the state (teacher/coach) leading children in prayer? The "In God We Trust" on currency started in...I believe the 1930's...went out of existence...was revived by Eisenhower in response to political pressure from the so called "Christian Right". |
