Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2007 » (Another) Cobo Hall expansion plan proposed » (Another) Cobo Hall expansion plan proposed - 1 « Previous Next »
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Matt
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cobo Hall expansion plan proposed

$968 million plan would add 300,000 square feet and a skywalk connected to Ren Cen

December 4, 2006
By JOHN GALLAGHER
FREE PRESS BUSINESS WRITER

Wayne County Executive Robert Ficano is pitching a new $968-million plan to expand the Cobo Center convention facilities that is designed to overcome objections that have sunk all previous proposals.

The plan would boost Cobo’s exhibit space from its current 700,000 square feet to just under 1 million by demolishing Cobo Arena for an expansion and converting Cobo’s existing Riverfront Ballroom to exhibit space.

The plan also calls for linking Cobo to downtown’s main convention hotel, the Detroit Marriott Renaissance Center, by an enclosed moving walkway that would cross above Hart Plaza.

More at:
http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20061204/NEWS99/ 61204038
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Apbest
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

walkway all the way to the rencen? that seems like a long ass walkway...maybe the JLA announcement will be timely enough that they can demolish that and expand in its place
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Detroit_stylin
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That is a long walkway from Cobo to the RenCen...
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Tetsua
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Something tells me that the walkway plan will be revised in the future.
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Toog05
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well at least someone is trying to fix Cobo's problem...Hopefully this proposal is successful.
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Danindc
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:45 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Eh, what's another $1 billion for a building that sees heavy use once a year?
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Spitty
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, come on, we need a walkway that goes over Hart Plaza. No public space is complete without a moving sidewalk hovering over it.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cobo needs expansion. I like the idea save for the walkway to the RenCen, which just doesn't make sense, especially with the RiverWalk.
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Supersport
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why in the hell would they build a skywalk from Cobo to the RenCen when we already have a people mover stop at Cobo? Excuse me while I go smack my head against the wall some more.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because, everything in this country is about super/ultra convenience, now. God forbid you have to pay money to use the people mover, or go outside to walk the short distance of the RiverWalk to the RenCen. Heck, even if you didn't, it's a relatively short walk even in the winter.

All that said, I'm just glad someone is bringing this back up.
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Aschar76
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 7:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A second lane on the C Train track would work aka enclosed walkway.Maybe a loop or corkscrew?
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Mind_field
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 7:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What an insane waste of infrastructure to build a walkway from the Rencen to Cobo. I know the NAIAS is extremely important to the city, but is it worth a billion for an expansion which will likely not attract any more significant conventions to Cobo? All the small to mid-sized conventions go to the Rock Financial showplace, and the very large conventions will chose Chicago, Vegas, or Orlando, maybe Indianapolis.
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Charlottepaul
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think the best idea is def. to just expand it to where JLA is now. They might not even have to tear JLA down, but rather just make a connection and use the JLA as an additional room or space ideally.
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Toog05
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 8:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another source, Detroit News, which better explains why the cost is high.

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20061204/UPDAT E/612040422

(Message edited by toog05 on December 04, 2006)
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Apbest
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the PM is an issue cause it only goes one way...why? I dont know buts it stupid
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Detroitplanner
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Use of ballrooms: Detroitplanner approved
Use of Cobo Arena: Detroitplanner approved
Complete Teardown of Cobo Arena and replace: Need more info, siding with too expensive to justify.
Elavated Moving Sidewalk: No Way. We have sidewalks and on cold days people mover connections.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 10:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What? You think they could simply renovate Cobo Arena for the space they need? The shape wouldn't allow it.
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Bibs
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 10:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, it is a piece of cake to lug a suite case full of sales material up the narrow escalator, through the narrow turn style and onto the crowded people mover to get over to the RenCen. Or I could walk the 1/4 mile trip in blinding snow with 20 F wind chill. Sounds like a hella of lotta fun! Perhaps, a nice shuttle bus would less costly and separate the worker bees and journalists from the crushing crowds
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Mind_field
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 11:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Americans are so pansified.
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Bearinabox
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Any chance that when the Pontch renovations are done convention visitors will stay there, or is there something special about the RenCen? Never stayed in either, so I wouldn't know.
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Detroitplanner
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

no not renovate it, its space is under-utilized as it is, there is no reason why the stage is left in, and you could do some really cool 2-story displays for a creative automaker in that space (enter on one floor, exit on another).

I can see the windows over the water being a great draw for a lucky luxury car line. It would be easy to shut off part of the walkway in the Sportshall to accomplish this.

The DPS still utilizes Cobo Arena for major basketball games. It was a great space to have when we were hosting the Kerrigan vs Harding death match! We had two regulation size ices within a few minute walk from each other.

I see Cobo Arena as an asset. It needs some polishing, but it is part of the community.
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Royce
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 11:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm with you on this one, Detroitplanner. Use the ballrooms for additional display space. Keep Cobo Arena and perhaps remove some of the ground level seats for more floor space.

I think Cobo Arena is a unique part of the skyline and should not be demolished. How many round buildings can be found along major city skylines? I would rather see the Joe demolished instead of Cobo Arena.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 11:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bear, convention goers already stay at the Pontch, too.
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Spiritofdetroit
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Posted on Monday, December 04, 2006 - 11:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

isnt a walkway from the Pontch to Cobo going to be built in part of the renovations the Pontch is currently undergoing?
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Royce
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 12:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to the Free Press article, $980 million to be spent for 270,000 additional square feet. That comes to $3585/square foot. Seems pricey to me.
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Gumby
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 12:10 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce the squat Arena is barely imposing on the skyline. If you want to see a round building in the skyline look a little to the right and look at the RenCen.
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Mackinaw
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 12:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skywalk: terrible idea. Not so much because of the usual bad effects that these have, such as reducing pedestrian traffic for street-level retail (because there is no riverfront retail), but because this would be aesthetically horrendous and would further detract from an already underused Hart Plaza. Why make a fancy riverfront walkway and Port area if you give people another way to get around. It's only five cold months a year, plus some people happen to like walking outside anyway. In addition, we can expect alot of auto show visitors to start using the renovated Ponchartrain and new Book-Cadillac and Fort Shelby which are in the Cobo neighborhood.
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Detroitplanner
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 12:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spirit, that skywalk to the Pontch was proposed back in the 1980's. There is a model in Cobo that shows it, and you can even see where there is an odd area for it to meet up on an upper level. I'd assume it would only have limited appeal and be butt-ugly. Why would anyone want to go up a floor to come down a floor across the street? Traffic there is not bad, in fact when its busy it is a good thing as cars can move fast enough to run peds down!
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Spiritofdetroit
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 12:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I knew it was in original plan as well, but thought I had heard as part of the current renovations they were going to put it in afterall. I must have misread somewhere. thanks
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Andyguard73
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 12:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Spirit I heard that too.
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Detroit313
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 1:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I don't care for the skywalk idea, let's see the renderings first. But goodluck Fianco!313
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Toog05
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 2:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royce, the expansion will cost $425 million not $968 million. $968 million includes other cost such as payout to the counties, endowments, debt, and to buy cobo from the city.
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Toog05
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 2:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Any yet the third article from Tuesday's morning newspaper...

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20061205/METRO /612050384

(Message edited by toog05 on December 05, 2006)
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Erikd
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 2:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The plan would create a five-member public authority to own and run Cobo, with representatives from Wayne, Oakland, and Macomb counties, the State of Michigan, and the City of Detroit.

Two private companies, the Detroit-based Walbridge Aldinger contractring firm and Hines Interests, a Houston-based firm that built the One Detroit Center office tower downtown and manages the Renaissance Center for owner General Motors, would operate Cobo for the five-member authority.




I like the idea of expanding COBO, and I like the idea of regional ownership and operation of COBO, but the cost sounds a little high.

IKEA just built a new 311,000 sqft store in Canton, and I can't believe it cost them anywhere near a billion dollars. The proposed 270,000 sqft COBO expansion wouldn't require any land to be purchased, so I'm not sure why the pricetag is so high.
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Renfirst
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 2:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's a pretty long walkway. Doesn't Minneapolis have walkways all around the city ... I'm envisioning something floating high in the sky ... it'd probably be street-level, right? That can't possibly stay in the plans.
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Apbest
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 2:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ikea's a warehouse

this includes demolishing a bldg and adding state of the art convention space, big difference

that said...it still sounds high. But (from the article)

"Actual Cobo renovations would cost $425 million, but the price tag also includes buying the center from Detroit, paying existing debts and creating a fund to subsidize its operations."
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 7:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to today's article, it looks like Patterson has already made up his mind, but that should be no surprise. The only way he'd ever support a new convention center is if it was to be constructed in Oakland County. Fact is, Fianco should have already known this. We can count Oakland County out of any Cobo expansion plans, at least while Patterson is still in office no matter how much funding they manage to find from other sources. He asks some very valid questions that everyone should be asking, but I have a feeling even if these were answered, he still wouldn't be behind it. The best bet is for Fianco to do some serious politicking to bring in the casinos or some other private entity if he really wants to push this through sooner rather than later (too late).
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Corktownmark
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 7:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seems that the existing walk way between rencen and Millender could be used to start it off then run the walk way down Larned and include the Ponch too. The people mover already goes through there anyway. This would be use full to bring pedestrian traffic to the Woodward corridor. It would help retail rather then detract.
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Stecks77
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Walkway = Cluster F%@&!
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Genesyxx
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 8:28 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Aside from the skywalk, I'm all for talk of expanding Cobo. Only problem, it's only been TALK. I do like the idea of extending taxes to the casinos, although that will receive strong criticism, but if you want more people to come to the city to blow their wad (of money), then you're gonna have to be doing more than what they're doing now. I like the idea of demo-ing Cobo Center, it's not going to be used. Now, if only Illitch would move JLA so we could get more space.
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Bussey
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 8:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For those of you who think that it sounds too pricey...


quote:

Costs of Cobo plan

Cobo renovation/expansion:
$425 million
Cash payout to counties:
$233 million
Endowment fund to subsidize Cobo operations:
$180 million
Eliminating debt:
$110 million
Buying Cobo from city:
$20 million
Total project cost:
$968 million
Source: Wayne County


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Bob
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 10:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to agree with LMichigan. This proposal will be DOA because the only way L Brooks Patterson will go for it is if we build a new convention center in Oakland County, then he'd be all about the region paying for it.
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 10:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Yeah, it is a piece of cake to lug a suit case full of sales material up the narrow escalator, through the narrow turn style and onto the crowded people mover to get over to the RenCen.



I've done it several times. It's not a challenge.
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Bob
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 10:37 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People do it all the time in cities like Chicago and New York. I've seen someone get a full size string bass through the turn styles on the El before. And if you have something large enough you can use the handicap door to gain access.
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Fnemecek
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

I have to agree with LMichigan. This proposal will be DOA because the only way L Brooks Patterson will go for it is if we build a new convention center in Oakland County, then he'd be all about the region paying for it.



The majority of businesses that actually benefit from the NAIAS are located in Oakland County. All you have to do is give those contractors an ultimatum, "Move out of Oakland County or lose your contract."

Watch how fast LBP changes his mind.
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Toog05
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 11:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And yet a fourth article with details of the expansion, and a page of graphics to go with it...

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=2006612050411
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Motorcity
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 12:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'll second Corktownmark. If there really is a need for an enclosed elevated walkway, why limited it to just RenCen<->Cobo traffic by running it over Hart Plaza? Run it along Larned so it might get used other than during the autoshow.
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Crawford
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why does Wayne County need Oakland County's support? Why not just tax Wayne and then forget about that drunken bigot from Waterford. Wayne County will derive 90% of the benefits, so it's not unreasonable for Wayne to pony up 100% of the costs.

If Oakland County hotels and restaurants truly benefit from the Auto Show, one would think that they would lobby Patterson for approval. I really doubt downtown Birmingham or Orchard Lake Road benefits from the Auto Show. If anything, retail and restaurants might suffer as suburbanites head downtown for the day, instead of spending money at their local Megamall/Applebee's.

I'm also against the skywalk over Hart Plaza idea. The last thing downtown needs is more skywalks.
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Bob
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 12:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would imagine The Townsend Hotel in downtown Birmingham might have a few auto execs that stay there.
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Wordonthestreet
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That will change once the Westin Book Cadillac opens in 2008.
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Southwestmap
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 1:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It isn't the Oakland County hotels and restaurants that are being discussed in terms of the Auto Show. It is show suppliers such as the flowers (Macomb County's Viviano's)and the exhibits construction, food brokers, lighting, etc.

Many of those companies are in Oakland/Macomb counties and many, if not most of their employees/workers live outside of Detroit as well.

Also, taxing hotel rooms and liquor in just Wayne County will not pay the bill. Truth is, every county in Michigan pays the Cobo Expansion (1986) liquor tax right now. In a complicated scenario, the out counties now receive all the liquor taxes they pay into the Cobo expansion fund back, but early on in the early 1990's, their taxes were needed to pay Cobo's bonds.

With this proposed expansion, the 80-some outcounties' liquor taxes may be necessary again. The law that makes them pay is still operative and that may be the money that Mr. Ficano is saying that he needs.
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Bob
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 3:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

L. Brooks response

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20061205/NEW S99/61205027
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 7:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well,

Patterson's most recent response is much better than his usual "drop dead, Detroit" response, though I think he's being disingenous about taking this to a vote, because he knows good and well it would be a tough sell, and that's how he really wants it. Actually, this is a backdoor "drop dead, Detroit" response.
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Bibs
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 8:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I sincerely hope that the additional hotels being built in downtown Detroit leads to more convention business, more profitable hotels and lower vacancy rates at the hotels. Capturing the conventioneers and getting them to spend all their money in downtown Detroit shifts the power base from the neighboring counties to Wayne County. That's BAD for Oakland County!
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 9:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

huh? I'm trying to understand your point, Bibs, but I'm not quite sure what you're getting at.
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Royce
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 9:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Even if the expansion costs itself is only $425 million, $948 million for 270,000 square feet is still pretty expensive. There has got to be a cheaper alternative.

BTW, how much money would Detroit really lose if the NAIAS goes to Chicago? We can still have a smaller show for Detroit and the crowds will still come.
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Mind_field
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 9:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

he's probably trying to explain where LBP is coming from in opposing an expansion of Cobo. I don't think there will be any power shift though. Most small and mid-sized conventions will continue to choose the newer Rock Financial showplace in Novi over Cobo. There won't be any power shift even with more downtown hotels and an expanded convention center.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 10:04 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it's shortsighted, at best, to say an expanded Cobo will hurt Oakland County in the longrun. That's that same old, suburban isolationist ideology that has helped Detroit get it to the place it is, today. The idea that any substantial investment within Detroit hurts the metro region is an antiquated ideology that needs to fall by the wayside, especially considering to blatant examples of where it has gotten the metro over the past 5 or so decades (i.e. nowhere). Despite popular belief among many suburbanites, the redistribution, depopulation, and decentralization of Detroit did not help the metro reach its full potential. In fact, the metro could have been so much further ahead, now, if we wouldn't have seen this near complete decentralization of wealth and resources.
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Eric
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 11:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wasn't there talk about using the Port Authority to fund projects like a Cobo expansion? Wouldn't that be an easier route than trying to convince some 80 counties to extend to liquor taxes?
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Gistok
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 11:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I wonder what the Walbridge-Aldinger/Gerald Hines folks will do differently to make Cobo more competitive in the future?
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Yvette248
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 11:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's that same old, suburban isolationist ideology that has helped Detroit get it to the place it is, today.....


Absolutely Lmichigan. Especially when many people who come to Detroit for tourism or conventions end up staying in suburban hotels and shopping in Oakland County. We stand or fall together as a REGION.

The Novi Center will never gain serious attention for the type of trade shows that Cobo does. It's a different customer for different places. Other cities pool their resources together - that's how they win the major convention bids.
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Digitaldom
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Posted on Tuesday, December 05, 2006 - 11:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Exactly Yvette248 unless we start acting like a REGION.. and NOT a suburbs versus detroit.. This will NEVER work... This Detroit argument is losing ground by the minute.. We can live without you.. you can not live without us... Detroit stop thinking that you DO NOT need the suburbs to revive... You need us NOW more than ever...

Everyone can say how much improvement has happened in Downtown.. BUT without the suburbs you will be worse than Cleveland.. It's called a cooperation.. not a WE owe Detroit something.. or the state for that matter..

Dan
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Detroit_stylin
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Suburbs cant live without it's core city huh...
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Erikd
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 1:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

This Detroit argument is losing ground by the minute.. We can live without you.. you can not live without us... Detroit stop thinking that you DO NOT need the suburbs to revive... You need us NOW more than ever...




What suburbs do consider to be part of your "we" and "us" group?

The suburbs are not one unified group against Detroit. The various suburbs and counties are just as divided against each other as they are against Detroit.

Livonia opted out of the bus system that serves all of their neighboring suburbs. Oakland and Wayne County support a regional arts tax that is not supported by Macomb County. There are inner-ring suburbs from all three counties that are fighting against suburban sprawl.

The proposals for COBO expansion, extra lanes on I75, an AA-DTW-Detroit rail line, SMART funding, or regional arts funding have no common suburban opinion.

These issues are not about "city vs suburbs." There is no unified suburban opinion, so don't try to pretend that that is the case.

The suburb vs suburb divide is just as big of a problem as the city vs suburb divide.

We need to stop this divisive bullshit and realize that we all need each other to prosper. Any suggestion that a metro city or suburb can "live without" some other city or suburb is both nonsensical, and counter-productive.
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Detourdetroit
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

what about a catapult?
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Bjl7997
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 9:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

unless the put s conveyor belt on the sky walker.
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Mjb3
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 9:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another issue not addresses is the exhorbitant costs incurred by exhibitors to pay union stooges 3x the cost and time to set up anywhere else.
It is all controlled by West Bloomfield contractor who has monopoly on all loading/unloading @ Cobo.

And no exhibitor is allowed to use their own laborers, electricians, etc to build displays. All work is done by union guys under the control of WB guy. And in case your wondering, yes he is a big campaign contributor to KK and city clounsil.

Maybe county control would throw these guys out, but I doubt it. If they did, Patterson might come on board, grudgingly.
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Apbest
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:26 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.freep.com/assets/st atic/pdf/2006/12/cobo1205.pdf

graphic of the plan
(not a rendering)
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Toog05
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 10:30 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Opinion on John Gallagher idea about the skywalk...

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20061206/BUS INESS04/612060312
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Stecks77
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 11:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't even put it into words how much I hate the walkway idea.

Instead of spending $24 (Mil) on the bridge why don't they just tell Illitch to take a hike and move JLA. Then they could build a hotel right on site attached to Cobo. It would cost more then the bridge but it doesn't have to be huge and at least the lazy SOB's who need a ridiculous climate controlled walkway can be fat and happy.

(Message edited by stecks77 on December 06, 2006)
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Bob
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 11:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They will have to bring the cost down to satisfy L. Brooks, so the first thing to go will be that walkway. The People Mover connects anyways.
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Upinottawa
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 11:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The ped bridge is stupid (not to mention expensive). If people don't want to go outside, they can take the PM. If they want to walk, they can take the Riverwalk.

Are L shaped large conference centres that desireable?
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Bibs
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know this might be difficult or impossible due to infrastructure constraints. How about an underground corridor with a moving sidewalk connected to the underground Ford parking garage as well as the RenCen?
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Detroitman
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:37 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

PATTERSON BENDS: Cobo expansion plan's new twist: He might back short extension of hotel tax to foot bill
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20061206/BUS INESS03/612060310/0/NEWS03
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Southen
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think an underground corridor is even worse than an above ground skywalk. At least with a skywalk the outside surroundings could lure someone from the tube. With an underground walkway it absolutely promotes zero pedestrian activity. Im pretty confident though that this whole skywalk plan will be scrapped. Its just not practical and doesnt promote growth.
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Spitty
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about underwater? It go along the seawall and be a clear tube like the polar bear exhibit at the zoo. That wouldn't be expensive or anything...
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 1:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well if it weren't for boats mooring along the waters edge, that wouldn't be a bad idea.

Maybe they can forgo the sky bridge, change the direction of the People Mover (to go clockwise), and make complimentary PM tokens available for RenCen guests. That way when the event is over at Cobo, the folks would get onto the PM, and head towards the rest of downtown, perhaps for a restaurant or gaming stop before heading back to RenCen.

That $24 million sky bridge can sure buy a lot of PM tokens, can't it?
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Southen
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 2:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How long is the average loop around the PM? I think leave it counter clockwise. It promotes the rest of downtown, that way people who stay at the Ren Cen wont just stay within the complex. It showcases places like Greektown and Broadway to people who may not see or venture that way anyway.
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Spiritofdetroit
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 2:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

15 minute loop....
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 2:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well how does changing the direction of the PM "not" promote the rest of downtown?? In order to get back to your hotel, you would have to make a complete circuit either way?

The direction change just gets them to the convention center faster. If they're in a hurry to get to Cobo, and have to make a 15 minute loop, it makes them less "attentive" to what other attractions Detroit has. But after their "event" at Cobo, they'll have free time to "view and explore".
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Southen
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 2:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess it could go either way then. I just figured though after spending a few hours in a convention center there focus would be getting back and crashing, not their surroundings. I guess thats how I would approach being in a different city. I know im much more aware of where I am and whats going on when I have a lot more energy. Just using my travel experience as a reference I suppose.
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 2:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And you may be right... but that would mean that folks staying at the RenCen would be more inclined to just get off at the RenCen station after Cobo.... whereas they may get off at Greektown or elsewhere if they see that first before getting back to RenCen.

I was just trying to find a way around that silly skyway idea.
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Southen
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Either way the skywalk is a bad idea.
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Motownman
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 3:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think a clear glass skywalk would look kind of cool.
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Upinottawa
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Could a clear glass skywalk survive a Michigan winter? The skywalk would be more trouble than its worth and would suck away financing that should be spent on making Cobo both larger and more open to its urban environment.
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Yvette248
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 5:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ironic quote of the day:

"It's important that another voice that is not inside the City of Detroit is talking about the importance of Cobo," Kilpatrick said. "I think oftentimes debates get marginalized when it's Kwame Kilpatrick talking..."

(Message edited by yvette248 on December 06, 2006)
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Docmo
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 6:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maybe the walkway could have a stop at the gondola entrance.

If not the gondola, maybe the walkway could have a stop at the Dodge fountain--it would serve as a major structural support and you wouldn't have build any stairs. Just slide down the fountain supports to visit Hart Plaza. Just imagine, a convenient walkway for the conventioneers and thrill ride all wrapped up in one great Detroit landmark.
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Tetsua
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 7:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I forget, aren't they planning on making a walkway from the Ponch to Cobo? That would seem much more feasible than running a walkway .25 miles.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I predict the skywalk will be the first victim when this thing is ironed out if it ever gets beyond this announcement in the first place, and that's a good thing. There is no graceful way to stretch a walkway over or through Hart Plaza. I don't usually mind new ideas, but this just sounds ridiculous to be stretching a skywalk over a public plaza, and particular Hart Plaza which frames downtown when viewed from the river.

The only way I can think of something like this working is if they run the skywalk parallel to the People Mover along Jefferson.
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Docmo
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 7:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

L,
The PM runs down Larned. I agree, the whole thing will probably go away, though an elevated walkway down the Jefferson median would seem more palatable than one across Hart Plaza.
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Gistok
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 7:41 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A skywalk with moving sidewalks is much more substantial (and heavier) than just a catwalk like the type between RenCen and Millender Center. For a good example look at the one that stretches between Somerset North and South over Big Beaver in Troy. It looks rather bulky.
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 7:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brain fart. Thanks. Yes, I mean run the thing along the People Mover or run it at the perimeter of Hart Plaza along Jefferson if this is a must, which I don't think it will be.
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Yvette248
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Posted on Wednesday, December 06, 2006 - 9:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't think the covered walkway will ever happen. Its not necessary when considering the costs. Everything else about the plan sounds good though.
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Detroitstar
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Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 12:09 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I may be wrong, but I thought there was already an underground pedestrian walkway connecting the convention facility with the Ren Cen.???
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 12:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If there is one, it would be news to me.
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Detroitstar
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Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 12:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I know for a fact that there is a pedestrian walkway underground from the Ren Cen to hart plaza...I used it on Monday. It was just a concrete tunnel with nothing pedestrian friendly about it.

The person I was with worked for Hines, the company that manages the Ren Cen. At the point where we exited, the corridor continued, but I did not ask about where it leads.
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Yvette248
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Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 6:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, yeah, there is one. Its been so long since I've worked there I forgot about it. Its basically used by city employees. I don't think they will open that for the public though - it is pretty ugly.
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Genesyxx
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Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 8:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Why is L Brooks so adament about being down on Detroit?
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Detroitstar
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Post Number: 348
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Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 3:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone know where this underground walkway goes? I just spoke with my father, who said he once took this route over to Cobo back in the 80's...is this possible?
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Thnk2mch
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Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Patterson rejects new Cobo plan

Oakland Co. executive opposes extending hotel, liquor taxes, will devise own financing scenarios.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20061207/M ETRO/612070365
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Lmichigan
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Posted on Thursday, December 07, 2006 - 3:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, that was a surprise. *sarcasm*

It looks like he's inched slightly forward, though, with the article assuring us he doesn't want to move Cobo to Oakland County. lol And, to be honest, I don't think his financing plans will fly. Fianco knows he has to compromise, but I'm not sure if Patterson knows such a word.
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Trainman
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Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 11:50 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seriously, I think contributions are a good answer. There are many families that are faced with no medical insurance and to force them to pay for Cobo without raising the sin taxes more is not good enough. And this has already been done. I'm game to give a donation and we can raise lots of money by having parties all over Detroit.

We need to use our brains on this in my opinion because other cities are passing us and we could indeed lose on the auto shows and the convention business.

Why go to Detroit, when other cities pass us? In my opinion, we should all work together to do more to improve basic essentials like a decent cost effective public bus system for example.
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Apbest
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Posted on Tuesday, December 12, 2006 - 11:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

congrats, is this your first untransit related post?


btw, I agree

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