  Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 737 Registered: 02-2006 |
Developing. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070102/NEW S99/70102009 | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 249 Registered: 05-2006 |
That's the worse news I've heard in a long time. I feel sorry not only for the victims, but the back lash sure to follow regarding downtown. I just walked by there Saturday night to see the Steve Y banner and commented to a friend how safe the area was. This is really bad news in more ways than one. Devastating news. | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 926 Registered: 11-2003 |
I heard alot of sirens when I was getting ready for work this morning.......It's possible that my constant lateness has finally paid off. | ||
Dan Member Username: Dan Post Number: 1336 Registered: 10-2003 |
Wow. That is not good. The DPD better catch the individual responsible ASAP. I do not know the circumstances, but it should serve as a reminder to lock back doors in your business. RIP to the victims. | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 927 Registered: 11-2003 |
Wash, let's wait and see what happened here.....why were there workers in the bar at 9AM? Is that typical to get there that early to start for lunch?!? Was it workers who got into a fight, or were they robbed? Seems strange for a bar to get robbed at 9AM.....deposit already made...... | ||
The_nerd Member Username: The_nerd Post Number: 360 Registered: 12-2003 |
^ It also seems unusual that they were stabbed and not shot. Regardless of how or why it's a tragic story too often told in the city. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1490 Registered: 11-2003 |
Latest from the article...
Bad news all around, although there's not always a heck of a lot you can do to prevent a disgruntled employee from going postal. | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 70 Registered: 08-2006 |
This is very unfortunate. If it does in fact turn out to be a former disgruntled employee that the article states then I hope people realize that this isnt an indication of the safety of downtown. | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 93 Registered: 12-2006 |
they will also realize that you take your life into your own hands when hiring out of the questionable pool of potential min wage employees available in the downtown environs. | ||
Enduro Member Username: Enduro Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2006 |
I can see all the activity over there from our office... What an awful headline for a place that has been a great example to other's thinking of putting a business downtown. They hire so many young people there too, this is going to be ugly. | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 1233 Registered: 12-2004 |
So sad. RIP. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 1032 Registered: 01-2004 |
I'm pretty sure they'll find that this wasn't a random act. This sounds like a typical petty revenge story, and I hope they catch the bastard soon. | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 928 Registered: 11-2003 |
Let's not over-react. It is a well-run establishment....the fact that one crazy ex-employee killed a couple of ex-coworkers won't ruin the place......there are places in Monroe (where I used to live) That had shots fired at random into the place on several occasions.....business barely hiccuped...... | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3393 Registered: 08-2004 |
As bad as it is... it could have been worse.... if it were patrons who were murdered. I know that's splitting hairs, but this type of employee rampage happens in all parts of the country, and is not an "urban specific" problem. However, if it were patrons who were murdered, it would really put a damper on downtown nightlife. I know that doesn't give much comfort to the families of the victims, but it is just another senseless crime that can happen anywhere. (Writing from the burbs....) | ||
Diehard Member Username: Diehard Post Number: 18 Registered: 03-2005 |
It also should make it fairly easy to figure out who did it. Disgruntled employees going postal tend to not be good about covering their tracks and disappearing. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5362 Registered: 02-2004 |
Employee on employee crime in Illitchville | ||
Enduro Member Username: Enduro Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2006 |
But still, they will loose a lot of employees over this. No one wants to work at the site of their friends' death. I wonder how their lunch crowd will react. I know I'll return. I also recall the stabbing that happened around the same time of day during the baseball playoffs at the box office. Did they catch that guy? | ||
Aschar76 Member Username: Aschar76 Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2006 |
Maybe the Fireworks shooter has switched to stabbing. | ||
3alarm Member Username: 3alarm Post Number: 5 Registered: 09-2006 |
the murderer is supposed to be turning himself in any minute now, i just left the Incident Response Base and thats the latest that they had heard. | ||
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond Post Number: 107 Registered: 02-2004 |
Remember folks, there is also a location in Dearborn. | ||
Bobj Member Username: Bobj Post Number: 1665 Registered: 11-2003 |
How about those comments by the owner of Cliff Bell's?? he sounds a little shaken by the recent shootings in the area. | ||
Motownman Member Username: Motownman Post Number: 60 Registered: 09-2006 |
My cousin works there. He said that the murderer was recently fired, for some reason that i don't know. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1494 Registered: 11-2003 |
One reason might have been his propensity for killing people. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7310 Registered: 10-2003 |
It depends. If he answered the employment application question, "Do you have a propensity to kill the management team?" accurately, they may have waived the right to terminate him for that reason. | ||
Ondy Member Username: Ondy Post Number: 2 Registered: 09-2005 |
3alarm, if you hear any updates on this story please post them as soon as you can. I know the husband of one of the victims. I along with his former co-workers are extremely saddened by this news. Thanks. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 869 Registered: 12-2005 |
Let's not forget that a similar situation happened a few lears ago at the Logan's restaurant in Livonia. It can happen anywhere there are minimum wage folk who can't handle the pressure. | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 251 Registered: 05-2006 |
What does making minimum wage have to do with it? I remember having a crappy job making minimum or slightly over and was pretty happy. Now I earn more than I thought I ever would but I'm stressed out constantly. I think it's more an issue of conflict resolution. Many people are desensitized by violence and don't give it a second thought when it comes to killing regardless of how much they earn. What about the postal people in the past? They certainly weren't earning minimum wage. | ||
Ondy Member Username: Ondy Post Number: 3 Registered: 09-2005 |
That's for sure 56packman. I myself had a family member murdered in livonia although not due to work related issues. People are so quick to trash Detroit on this. The blog entries on the Free Press article for the Cheli's murders are examples. It can happen anywhere. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1290 Registered: 11-2003 |
And unfortunately happening at a higher rate across the entire United States. | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 71 Registered: 08-2006 |
A Cosi restaurant in Southfield was recently held up at gunpoint. These things do happen everywhere but people will be quick to point the finger at Detroit. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 743 Registered: 02-2006 |
I'm not saying this is only a Detroit problem, but does it help anyone to go and Google murders/robberies in other towns? Let's give that a rest. I think what most people in this thread are saying is not that THEY think it's only a Detroit problem...more of an "uh oh" because a lot of people will. Example: the Freep comments message board. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 91 Registered: 12-2006 |
No kidding. Look at the bean bag incident in Boston after the Red Sox won the world series. Its been forgotten, while people still remember the Palace Brawl or the riots after the 1984 World Series. | ||
Ondy Member Username: Ondy Post Number: 4 Registered: 09-2005 |
Nobody's got any updated info? Did the killer turn him/herself in? | ||
Naturalsister Member Username: Naturalsister Post Number: 875 Registered: 11-2004 |
Channel 7 just reported that the killer is in custody. later - naturalsister | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 33 Registered: 09-2006 |
Have any of you thought about going into grief counseling? | ||
Hooha Member Username: Hooha Post Number: 130 Registered: 06-2005 |
This story is one of the headlines on ESPN.com cuz of the Chelios connection. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 9115 Registered: 10-2003 |
Southen, it (murders, shootings, stabbings, car jackings...) just happens more in Detroit. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 367 Registered: 09-2006 |
Are these the first two murders for 2007? Im hoping we can stay under 350 this year. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3394 Registered: 08-2004 |
Ffdfd... WTF are you talking about? All of us were just pointing out that it shouldn't affect the downtown image any more than an employee rampage shooting in Livonia affects Livonia businesses? This isn't a problem unique to urban America, it happens ALL OVER America. Figures there's always some people on this forum that like to make a meal out of a morsel... (Message edited by Gistok on January 03, 2007) | ||
Gumby Member Username: Gumby Post Number: 1517 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yeah look at how the murder in front of Red Squared Super Bowl weekend had basically no effect on downtown businesses and that act was random. This will do nothing to Cheli's business. | ||
Tayshaun22 Member Username: Tayshaun22 Post Number: 337 Registered: 02-2005 |
Gambling_man, I take it you've never worked in a restaurant? | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 129 Registered: 11-2006 |
17 year old kid did this... sad, sad, sad | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 746 Registered: 02-2006 |
I lost a shitty job when I was 17 too. It never occurred to me to stab anyone. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 819 Registered: 11-2005 |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=2007701030310 &GID=+vnl0QWZU0IJIOORjpac+Krpf ZRxYd3nYGJ2gVBeAC8%3D | ||
Valkyrias Member Username: Valkyrias Post Number: 407 Registered: 02-2005 |
i heard on the radio this morning that both locations will be closed indefinitely. | ||
Jiminnm Member Username: Jiminnm Post Number: 1159 Registered: 02-2005 |
This was reported in today's Albuquerque Journal, in the Sports section. | ||
C_p Member Username: C_p Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2006 |
Mark was a fine man, and was excited about being part of the newest location. His life had not been the easiest, but after years of hard work, things seemed to be coming together.He had a great sense of humour,and loved to laugh. What a sad ending for a hard working guy. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4721 Registered: 11-2003 |
Senseless violence in Detroit. jjaba. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 131 Registered: 09-2006 |
This whole tragic event just turns my stomach. One feels so sorry for the families and individuals involved and the negative ramifications to the city from it are very disturbing. The 17 year old has decimated so many people and so much hard work by a senseless act. Three lives have been instantly destroyed and countless others seriously affected. For what reason? | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4723 Registered: 11-2003 |
And the perp has a stash of the night deposits from the Bar where they caught him. So we have a huge robbery and double murders. jjaba. | ||
Leob Member Username: Leob Post Number: 85 Registered: 10-2005 |
I dare say the victims very much enjoyed working for this exploding new business which is exemplary of a lot of great things happening in the city right now. I am certain that they and the rest of the Chelios organization put a ton of hard work into the location. What do you suppose the victims would want to have happen in the wake of this loss ? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8117 Registered: 10-2003 |
My condolences to the families and friends of these victims. I certainly do not want to take away from the tragedy or the suffering that many are dealing with but I do have a question: With 400 victims of murder last year why is there so much grief on the boards for these victims as opposed to the numerous others? Are people that do not know these victims more concerned with the image and impact to downtown than to the deaths of these victims and the suffering of their loved ones? Sorry to interject but it seems to me that many people here only seem to 'grieve' when the victims were associated with downtown. Just a thought. C_P - My condolences for your loss. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2387 Registered: 10-2003 |
The only reason this is getting any airtime is the victims worked for a national sports figure. If they worked for any other small downtown business they wouldn't have even made the papers. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 137 Registered: 07-2006 |
i have to disagree with that, Ndavies. Just the 'disgruntled former employee' angle alone guarantees that it makes the front page. plus, the fact that it is downtown - an area gaining in popularity and trying to shed an image of being dangerous - also ensures this makes the front page. it doesn't hurt that Chelio's owns it, and it wouldn't have been on espn otherwise, but it's certainly not the only reason it's getting airtime. However, if this had been a random event, not involving the word 'disgruntled', elsewhere in detroit, with no celebrity connections, most likely it would have been a blurb on page 8. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 132 Registered: 09-2006 |
Jt1 I think many of us are expressing our grief as we would to any murder, not discounting the grief one experiences for any of the other 400 murdered in Detroit or for anyone murdered anywhere for that matter. Murder is Murder, senseless and unnecessary no matter where it occurs. This high profile incident only re inforces that fact. The thought of negative effect for downtown is part and parcel to the situation itself and this is a board that discusses Detroit,, its an obvious overlap. It happened Downtown in an area trying to revive itself and directly will affect the many who invest and work in those areas also who are totally innocent. There are no winners in this situation. Its shameful anytime life is lost in a violent manner. (Message edited by DetroitBill on January 03, 2007) | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 475 Registered: 08-2006 |
Anyone know why this kid was "disgruntled"? | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4463 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ever been happy after being fired? | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1836 Registered: 10-2003 |
How about he lost his source for quietly stealing from the place? It's been reported that a booty of bundled money replete with the Cheli's wrapper had been found at the suspect's house. (Message edited by Kathleen on January 03, 2007) | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 476 Registered: 08-2006 |
It is terrible this happened, anyone that thinks to solve thier problems in this manner.....I know of people that have been fired, including myself, sometimes a person has it coming and deserves to get fired. Other times..well. It's not a fair termination. Calls to government agencies that are supposed to be there to protect us, namely Michigan DL EG, and US Dept of labor, are of no help. They routinely give misinformation to make uninformed people go away just so they won't have to process paper work that might cut into thier one hour lunch break. I don't want to sound like I'm siding with the idiot for killing two people, no one has that coming. It just makes me think, if this kid had someplace to go to address is grievances in a respectful way, would this tragedy have happened? | ||
Al_t_publican Member Username: Al_t_publican Post Number: 117 Registered: 06-2004 |
Why can't a 17 year thug be identified, because of some silly law? If he is guilty there should be a bounty put on his head! And I don't mean for his arrest. | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7320 Registered: 10-2003 |
It just makes me think, if this kid had someplace to go to address is grievances in a respectful way, would this tragedy have happened?  | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 477 Registered: 08-2006 |
Good Ol Sam! He's just personal injury injury. No lawyer would touch a minimum wage case, not enough money in it for them. They take a third of the winnings. A third of 12g a year? | ||
Itsjeff Member Username: Itsjeff Post Number: 7321 Registered: 10-2003 |
 | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11071 Registered: 10-2003 |
Anybody recall the incident from a few years ago when a couple of bar workers were murdered in the suburbs? I seem to recall Hoog from the forum having worked at the place, or perhaps knew the bartenders. I can't recall the exact details, or even if they caught the people responsible, was just wondering if anybody else remembered it. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1285 Registered: 11-2003 |
There was the Duggan's shootings/robbery but neither were fatal. Last I knew they caught one of the guys | ||
Dabirch Member Username: Dabirch Post Number: 2021 Registered: 06-2004 |
Wasn't he from detroit, so then we had the long, drawn out argument of why the suburbs weren't safe because of the people from detroit? Good times... | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 1034 Registered: 01-2004 |
I think it was a bar in Royal Oak wasn't it? | ||
Kathleen Member Username: Kathleen Post Number: 1838 Registered: 10-2003 |
Susanarosa got it...Duggan's, which is on Woodward north of 13 Mile Rd. in Royal Oak. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5369 Registered: 02-2004 |
Channel 4 news had reported that Detroit Police have their main suspect. A 17 year old former Chelli's Chilli Bar employee. The main suspect is a African American male, race is not factor of the crime, but it is over a personal vendetta with the owner and robbery. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11073 Registered: 10-2003 |
Susana is correct, I remember it was Duggan's. Two people were shot, right? Seems like one, a male, was messed up pretty bad. I'm by no means looking to drag the suburbs down, just was trying to remember where the incident took place. I feel sorry for this 17 year old. At least the two victims lived a fairly long life of around 50 years. This 17 year old hasn't a clue about what life is all about, yet has already sealed his fate for the rest of his life. I'm sure after he rots in prison for some years, perhaps once he gets into his 20's, he'll realize how stupid he was. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1235 Registered: 11-2004 |
screw the city/suburns bullshit for once... forget that there are just as many people on the otherside as on this side of the fight... and the perception this will cause. THIS FUKING SUX! any bar, club, restaurant, ect. that this happens to is going to get a rap. and that is something this city desperatly doesnt need now. I feel so bad about this... Bringing this city back, (especially the new suburban customers who now are returning) is kinda like getting into the bathtub and sticking your toe in. then once your on your way to convincing them to jump in head first, some asshole takes a shit and flushes the crapper... sending scalding water down the pipes... | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 256 Registered: 05-2006 |
Channel 7 just reported that Cheli's will reopen tomorrow. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 134 Registered: 09-2006 |
"at least the two victims lived a fairly long life of around 50 years old" I cant believe I read this,,,Sorry but i hope I am taking this out of context, but my sympathies go out to them and their families first, they did not deserve this. The 17 year old assailant sadly deserves what he gets in any case. I often think if we lived in a society where the punishment fits the crime we would not see so much of this. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11075 Registered: 10-2003 |
You are taking it out of context. Let me clarify, I show no sympathy towards this young man personally, in regards to the unthinkable crime he has committed, let him burn in hell. He must pay the consequences for his actions. I feel sorry for him the same way you feel sorry for any young kid or young adult when they make some poor decisions early on in life. This young made did the unthinkable, in doing so, he in turn lost his life as well. As far as I see it, 3 lives were lost in this incident. Living the rest of your life in a cage with other animals is not living. I feel sorry for what this young man has done, not for what lies ahead for him. Better? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2004 Registered: 07-2004 |
Why have this thread? There were well over three hundred murders in Detroit last year.Every one of them deserves a thread or better yet deserves not to have a thread_ because these threads eventually begin to mitigate the circumstances and rationalize murder. The anguish and despair felt by the friends and family of all the murdered people in Detroit is unimaginable_ is it really necessary to spew the same crap every time? You all live in a city with a culture of violence.Apparently you are o.k. with it.Don't try to point out the one or two or five or how ever many murders you dredge up from some other town or suburb and preach about ..." see it happens everywhere"... because that is a god damned lie.It happens in Detroit and has been for a damn long time. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1237 Registered: 11-2004 |
The victims in this case were involved in NO illegal activity of any kind, and were good standing employees doing their job for a legitimate employer in a very public part of the city. Last time I checked, over 80% of murders in the city are drug related. Not to say it makes it ANY better, but many murder victims know they game they are playing. Its not that often someone is killed over a frivilous arguement over some fuking tip money. I mean goddamn, how fuking sociopathic can people be. This just IRKS me so hardcore. And how do you stop a general attitude that is so prevelant among so many people now. How do you keep someone from killing you over a pair of nikes.... This has to stop! | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 585 Registered: 08-2006 |
"I feel sorry for this 17 year old" F*&K HIM! He's a worthless piece of trash who murdered two innocent people. I hope he rots in prison or fries in a chair. Good ridence! I feel terrible for the families and what their going through. Hopefully this has no impact on downtown or its rebirth. | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 258 Registered: 05-2006 |
Start with a new Police Chief that has some balls (figuratively, not literally)that exudes confidence that puts the fear of God in the criminals. Not some weak ass wimp like Ella that appears afraid of her own shadow when she's interviewed on camera. My guess is that she's a laughing stock amongst criminals. I know she's a lawyer, she's smart, etc. But I don't think she's effective in portraying a police chief. Maybe the "FIRE MILLEN" chants heard every where lately should be replaced with "FIRE ELLA". I lost confidence in her during the Super Bowl festivities when that young lady was gunned down on the street. That very day, I saw national TV coverage how every person on every street would be on some type of camera at all times during the festivities, yet there is still no suspect in this case. And the fireworks shooter....? | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 100 Registered: 12-2006 |
Maybe if Jerry Oliver was still here. He didnt have much time since the media was all over him for everything, he had to be careful with what he did. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1586 Registered: 06-2004 |
don't buy the Nikes OR if you buy the Nikes don't be so attached to them that you can't give them away | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 586 Registered: 08-2006 |
If the mayor and the police chief are serious about redevelopment downtown, they have to really work on getting rid of crime down there! If people are afraid of going to downtown that is a serious problem. Milwaukee figured it out, New York, Chicago, New Orleans. All have high crime rates but they keep it out of downtown and any tourist area. A god damn murder next to the baseball stadium, next to the casino's, a stabbing in the stadium. What the hell? That is a huge problem. I love Detroit and I want it to succeed, the first step would make it feel safe to walk around downtown. I was downtown in August on a Friday evening and I didn't feel safe walking with my dad. No police just vagrants. I live in the suburbs but spend lots of time in the city and know the city is rougher. Downtown Detroit has to do this 1. stop all murders 2. get some police walking, biking, driving, any thing for christ sakes 3. move the vagrants out of downtown 4. stop window smashing and car theft If you do these relatively easy things, revitalization will happen sooner! | ||
Wash_man Member Username: Wash_man Post Number: 260 Registered: 05-2006 |
Milwaukee, we all know those things need to be stopped. That's not news. How to do it is the question. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 587 Registered: 08-2006 |
Saturate the most important part of the city with police. You've got 5,000 police officers they don't seem to be doing much of a job in the neighborhoods so put them Downtown and in Midtown. How to fix neighborhood crime would be an entirely new thread. | ||
Jacaden Member Username: Jacaden Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2003 |
I am never comfortable expressing my condolences to victims/survivors. Our intentions are good and what more can we really do or say, if we don't know these people personally. I just can't get over how trite phrases like, "I feel for the victims" and "my heart goes out to their families" sound. Is it because we are forced to use them way too much these days? And of course I must make sure to note that this may be in part because when you have gone through something like this, and I have, you can't imagine the pain that comes along with it and how the words pass over your numb body/mind. And of course I say this because of what happened in my family when I was 12 years old. It gives me credibility to write what I do below. I agree with SS's post though (I never thought I would write that in this lifetime). I would never cheer what this accused has done, especially given my own personal history with "senseless murder of the innocent." But damn. He is 17 years old. He isn't even old enough to enlist and go to Iraq. He isn't even old enough to freakin' vote. He isn't old enough to drink! LEGALLY. Our society can't have it both ways. Do we have a juvenile court system or not? Yes what he did was terrible. (Is it even necessary to say that? Of course we have to so that we don't seem like we are "dishonoring the victims.") But probably there are plenty of people in his family who are in serious grief now as well. But it isn't cool/hard/tough enough to actually think about the many lives he has irrevocably ruined-- those he killed, those who loved and cared about them, and those who loved and cared about him (yes people who do heinous things actually have people who love them) who will never be the same because of what he did. You are cast as being too soft--on crime. Too naive--to deal with "reality." What happened in just 17 years to cause a newborn baby, a toddling child, a smiling boy into a killer? Good riddance indeed. That is part of the problem... we like to think that it is all about his choice. His free-will, his doing. He did make an extremely bad choice that has had, and will continue to have, a horrible impact on a great number of people, including him. That is if he did it (CONSTITUTION PEOPLE... we can't use it when we like it and toss it aside when we don't like what it says). He probably very well did commit murder, but before we string him up, let's give him a trial first. If we can't see how messed up it is for a 17 year old to have "lost his life" with this act as well as taking the lives away of those he murdered, then I guess this incident is a telling commentary on what our society has become. Juvenile courts have been around for over a century. Were those old timers too soft? Too naive? Michigan already has a history with trying juveniles as adults in high profile murder cases... Is the cutoff 3 years old? 10 years old? 15? Should we even have juvenile courts which take into consideration mental and social maturity? Should we even give "special consideration" to mentally ill people who commit crimes. I fear for the "New Jack City" justice system in Detroit coming down the pike. Lock 'em all up. Fry 'em all up. There aren't enough jails, nooses, and syringes to do it. Hence police round 'em up and then just send 'em back out on the streets. Overwhelming tide. And most importantly for this thread, how has it come to pass that well-intended Detroit boosters, such as the many folks on this forum, debate whether a whole city's economic and social vitality could hinge upon such a gut-wrenching act? | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 657 Registered: 11-2004 |
MKE, you have absolutely no grasp on the crime situation downtown, the stats speak for themselves that downtown is exceedingly safe( you might know that if you live here instead spouting off from afar). As for your "solutions" can they be anymore unrealistic. Seriously find me a downtown in major city without murders or homeless people Reality vs. Perceptions: An Analysis of Crime & Safety in Downtown Detroit http://www.tedconline.com/uplo ads/Downtown_Detroit_Crime_Stu dy_2006.pdf | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 104 Registered: 12-2006 |
ostrich head, meet the hole in the ground.....hole in the ground, ostrich head..... | ||
Jacaden Member Username: Jacaden Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2003 |
Thinking in complex ways. Debating intelligently. Mapping out an argument that cannot be contained in a "ha ha" 30 second sound byte. Knowing something about politics and history. Living in the city of Detroit. Scary, but fun. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 588 Registered: 08-2006 |
"without murders" That's quite easy. I'm sure there are more cities but Milwaukee hasn't had a murder downtown in 3 years. "homeless people" None, every city has this problem. I would be happy to discuss serious solutions to Detroit and many other cities crime problems on a new thread. The answer is not in the police, but in schools and in jobs. Detroit's murder total went up as the jobs went away. Police are just a bandaid, a temporary solution to a far greater problem. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11078 Registered: 10-2003 |
CL, Let's look at the facts, as much as I know you hate to. New York reported 579 homicides through Dec. 24, nearly a 10 percent increase from the year before. In Chicago, police had counted 466 murders in the city in 2006, roughly a 4 percent increase over 2005's 40-year low of 447, according to police statistics. For decades Chicago had more than 600 murders every year. Houston had 379 homicides in 2006. That was the most since 1994, when 419 murders were reported, police said. Some cities, such as Cincinnati — which has had 83 homicides so far, up from 79 in 2005 — posted their highest numbers ever. Philadelphia's 2006 homicide total was 403 as of Wednesday, the first time the number has topped 400 in nearly a decade. Los Angeles' total was down about 4 percent to 464 homicides through Dec. 23. Indianapolis has recorded 153 murders, a 54% increase over last year and the most since 1998, when the city recorded a record 162 murders. You can keep preaching that murder is only a Detroit problem, yet when I see murders in other cities in the 400+ range, that tells me that there are approximately the same number of people committing murder in those cities as there are here. The only damn difference is that a good number of these cities have more people living there. So basically what you are saying is we don't need to combat crime, we simply need to get more people to move here. Would you care to explain how this in some how is only a Detroit problem? I read the headlines of other cities quite often, there isn't another city out there that hasn't already registered multiple murders to kick off the new year. Perhaps you need to pay more attention to what goes on in other cities before spouting off atop your soap box. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2005 Registered: 07-2004 |
I don't give a shit about your stats sport they mean nothing.And in short order someone will again point out to you that Detroit's murder rate is far higher strike that far far higher then almost any other city.In case you did not know LA has about four million chicago about three millon nyc about 8 million. As I said you live in a city, Detroit, which thrives on a culture of violence. And as near as I can tell those in control are content.No other city in history has suffered due to crime as Detroit has. So perhaps you are the one on the soapbox preaching about how Detroit is really no different than other cities when any one with half a fucking brain knows that is bullshit. | ||
Detroitbill Member Username: Detroitbill Post Number: 135 Registered: 09-2006 |
City , it would be decent of you to refrain from so many profanities, it is not necessary and doesn't exactly reflect positively on getting your message across to people. Also, your comment about Detroiters not wanting a respectable police department is right off the mark, Why don't you ask those of us who live in the city. I don't know one of my own neighbors who would agree with your comments ( including myself).We constantly attend precinct meetings to monitor, assist and voice concerns to try to make a difference. Your comments are showing an incredible lack of knowledge about many of us Detroiters. | ||
Deegee Member Username: Deegee Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2004 |
Sounds like a lot of violent talk on this forum. | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 589 Registered: 08-2006 |
"Detroit's murder rate is far higher strike that far far higher then almost any other city." Sorry CL, St. Louis takes the cake for cities over 100,000. We had a thread about it a couple of weeks ago. Detroit is more violent than most other cities because it is far poorer. It has a far higher illiteracy rate and unemployment rate than most other major cities. Thus the city's crime problem. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11080 Registered: 10-2003 |
You do realize that "stats" means the same thing as facts, correct? As I stated before, what you are saying is that Detroit simply needs more people to move here, then you will be happy with the current number of murders, as they are acceptable elsewhere as long as more people live there. So perhaps for a quick fix, we simply expand our boundaries where we collect stats (facts if you prefer). We'll include the whole metro region, add in their number of murders, gain a few million in population, then CL can be a happy camper, because the murders will be on par per capita with all the other cities. You do realize that aside from Philly, the top ten other cities have about 200 square miles more than Detroit, on average, that their statistics AND census are derived from. LA is 500 square miles, a good 360 miles LARGER than Detroit's 140 miles it encompasses. We can go round and round all goddamn day, but the way statistics are gathered will likely ALWAYS have Detroit labeled as one of the most dangerous cities. | ||
Gistok Member Username: Gistok Post Number: 3402 Registered: 08-2004 |
Citylover, lets take this to the lowest common denominator: 1) Employee is fired. 2) Employee retaliates against employer by killing someone. So are you saying this only happens in Detroit??? Because we have seen this in the newspaper as happening in other cities, other counties, rural areas, urban areas, everywhere. Now if you're talking about the general lawlessness and lack of respect of human life in parts of Detroit, that's another issue (of which this could be a subset of). But don't lump it all together for the sake of argument! | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 751 Registered: 02-2006 |
You make a good point about if we had more population, people would think the murder rate is "acceptable". However, I'm not sure I understand your last statement. Are you trying to say that Detroit is being painted in an unfair light by a per capita murder rate? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2006 Registered: 07-2004 |
Can't you all come up with something other than the same old tired shit? Your stats mean nothing sport because you are wrong in how you present them.Milwaukee illustrates that when he points out that St Louis has the highest per capita murder rate.........whoowee! That St Louis is a nasty place sure am glad Detroit aint like that_ of course Milwaukee then concedes Detroit is in fact more violent then most cities........but any one knows that, it aint news. And no to say stats are the same as fact is to over simplify to the point of being meaningless.It is analogous to the Lions "celebrating" their meaningless victory on Sunday_ they are still a crappy team. DetroitBill so fucking sorry you don't like the language.But since that does not have a damn thing to do with anything other then you being patronizing I will leave it at that.You will notice I never once mentioned the police dept.I said it is evident that Detroiters and those that control the city i.e. the Mayor and council and others are content because this shit has been going on for decades. Gistock give it up..........so should the rest of you.I never once said this only happen in Detroit,I do say that the degree to which it does happen in Detroit is so much more than other places that to make the comparison is tantamount to a plain old lie. | ||
Aschar76 Member Username: Aschar76 Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2006 |
If we could only keep the fire going to make the smoke that would lead to the rescue. night | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3512 Registered: 10-2003 |
CL sound like you need a fix. But I am pretty sure that you still know the places to go to in the Corridor to get it. After all you should be the expert on crime in the city-- you did admit that you contributed to its black market economy for years. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2007 Registered: 07-2004 |
When did I admit that Detroit stylin? show me | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 613 Registered: 08-2005 |
I am aware of one incident in which a 17-year old Detroit youth committed armed robbery and was arrested. Because he was under that "magic" arbitrary number of 18, the judge decided to give him PROBATION only. Fucking probation for armed robbery! Now what message do you think that sent to the 17-year old? That crime doesn't pay, that there are consequences to his actions? Or that the criminal justice system in Wayne County is a fucking joke and that the potential benefits of crime outweigh the low risk of being caught and the slap on the wrist he will receive even if he is caught? Of course, the bleeding heart judge doesn't live in the neighborhood that he released that criminal into, so why the judge give a shit? He probably believes in "hugs" instead of jail time anyways. I'm sorry, but a 17-year old is not a child. I didn't turn 18 until three months into my freshman year of college. A 17-year old knows the difference between right and wrong, these fucking kids don't give a shit because they know they will just get a slap on the wrist until the day that they turn 18 (with the exception being murder, and sometimes not even then). | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2057 Registered: 10-2004 |
In Wisconsin, 17-year-olds are automatically adults for all crimes since the early 1990s, perhaps even earlier. Most 16-yos there are waived to adult court after a court hearing. For serious crimes, even some young teenagers and rare pre-teens, especially in Milwaukee, have been waived to adult courts because the gangs there have been using preteens for murdering (or trying to) some of their competitors and such. Michigan's state statutes seem to be considerably behind the rest of the country concerning crime and welfare. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11081 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oh come on CL, need we count the number of times you bought "your fix" in Detroit? In fact, it was during YOUR era, long before I was ever born, that lead to some of the worst years in Detroit in regards to crime. There is a name for somebody who 30 years later jumps on a Detroit website and cries bloody murder over each and every crime, it's called a fuckin' hypocrite dude. There are approximately 400 murderers in Detroit, 460 in Chicago, 400 in Philly, 580 in NYC, etc. The fact is, there are close to the same number of bad people in each city as the stats show. What should we do, take away the guns like they did in many of the other cities? In Chicago you can't even own a hand gun, they have made it illegal. Yet look, they still have 460+ murders. But wait, you mean to tell me the only people without guns now are the law abiding citizens? Heh, funny how that works isn't it? Drugs are illegal too, just in case you forgot, and yet how has the war on drugs panned out? Fact is, you have a serious hard on for Detroit when it comes to crime. Every other major city, even those where the homicides have DOUBLED in the past year, you give them a free pass, because as you said, saying "it happens everywhere" is a goddamned lie. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5370 Registered: 02-2004 |
Milwaukee, YOU QUOTE: "I feel sorry for this 17 year old" "F*&K HIM! He's a worthless piece of trash who murdered two innocent people. I hope he rots in prison or fries in a chair. Good riddance! I feel terrible for the families and what their going through. Hopefully this has no impact on downtown or its rebirth." I SAY: WHATEVER THAT 17 YEAR OLD BLACK TEEN DID IN HIS SELF WILL TO VIOLATE CHELLI'S CHILLI COMPANY POLICY. IT WAS IN THE MANAGEMENT RIGHTS TO FIRE HIM. THE TWO MANAGERS DIDN'T FORSEE THE WARNING SIGNS THAT VENGENCE FROM A BLACK TEEN WOULD WAGE HIS WRATH UPON THEM. ACCORDING TO THE SOURCES OF HUMAN MORALITY, WHEN WHITE FOLKS SEEK VENGENCE, THEY WOULD VOW IT WITH THEIR TONGUES. WHEN BLACK FOLKS SEEK VENGENCE THE VOW IT WITH THEIR MINDS AND NOT TO SNITCH TO ANYONE ABOUT IT. AGAIN THIS CRIME IS NOT RACE RELATED. Wash_man QUOTED "Start with a new Police Chief that has some balls (figuratively, not literally)that exudes confidence that puts the fear of God in the criminals. Not some weak ass wimp like Ella that appears afraid of her own shadow when she's interviewed on camera. My guess is that she's a laughing stock amongst criminals. I know she's a lawyer, she's smart, etc. But I don't think she's effective in portraying a police chief. Maybe the "FIRE MILLEN" chants heard every where lately should be replaced with "FIRE ELLA". I lost confidence in her during the Super Bowl festivities when that young lady was gunned down on the street. That very day, I saw national TV coverage how every person on every street would be on some type of camera at all times during the festivities, yet there is still no suspect in this case. And the fireworks shooter....?" I SAY DETROIT CHIEF ELLA "BULLY: CUMMINGS IS DOING EVERYTHING IN HER POWER TO DETROIT SAFER FOR ALL PEOPLE. BUT SHE CAN'T KNOW THE CRIME UNLESS ITS BEEN REPORTED TRUTHFULLY! AMERICAN LAW ENFORCEMENT IS NOT LIKE THE MOVIE " MORALITY REPORT" WHERE CRIME CAN BE PREVENTED IN SECONDS THANKS TO PSYCHIC DETECTIVES. YES, ELLA BULLY CUMMINGS NEEDS TO THE BIG BULLY AGAINST ALL CROOKS AND DEAD(C)KRAK HEADS, BUT DETROIT LAW ENFORCEMENT MUST NEEDS MORE FEDERAL GRANTS FOR TACTIC EQUIPMENT AND MORE POLICE OFFICERS. ALL DETROIT CITIZENS NEED TO BE CRIMEFIGHTERS, TOO. START COMMUNITY POLICING, BUT NOT VIGILANTE JUSTICE AND START SNITCHING, TOO AND KEEP YOUR IDENTITY A SECRET. Milwaukee, QUOTED: "If the mayor and the police chief are serious about redevelopment downtown, they have to really work on getting rid of crime down there! If people are afraid of going to downtown that is a serious problem. Milwaukee figured it out, New York, Chicago, New Orleans. All have high crime rates but they keep it out of downtown and any tourist area. A god damn murder next to the baseball stadium, next to the casino's, a stabbing in the stadium. What the hell? That is a huge problem. I love Detroit and I want it to succeed, the first step would make it feel safe to walk around downtown. I was downtown in August on a Friday evening and I didn't feel safe walking with my dad. No police just vagrants. I live in the suburbs but spend lots of time in the city and know the city is rougher. Downtown Detroit has to do this 1. stop all murders 2. get some police walking, biking, driving, any thing for christ sakes 3. move the vagrants out of downtown 4. stop window smashing and car theft If you do these relatively easy things, revitalization will happen sooner!" I SAY THAT'S TAKE MONEY, MONEY, MONEY, AND THE CITY'S IS STILL DEAD BROKE! ITS UNITY IN THE COMMUNITY TO FULFILL THOSE FOUR REQUIREMENTS ABOVE. HE ALSO QUOTED: "without murders" "That's quite easy. I'm sure there are more cities but Milwaukee hasn't had a murder downtown in 3 years." SURE MILWAUKEE MAN! THERE WERE FREQUENT MURDERS IN YOUR CITY, I THINK THAT THE MILWAUKEE POLICE WANTS TO KEEP A LOW PROFILE FROM THE LOCAL AND NATIONAL MEDIA. Supersport QUOTED THAT TOOK FROM CL'S QUOTE. ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- quote: ..." see it happens everywhere"... because that is a god damned lie.It happens in Detroit and has been for a damn long time. ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- "CL, Let's look at the facts, as much as I know you hate to." "New York reported 579 homicides through Dec. 24, nearly a 10 percent increase from the year before. In Chicago, police had counted 466 murders in the city in 2006, roughly a 4 percent increase over 2005's 40-year low of 447, according to police statistics. For decades Chicago had more than 600 murders every year. Houston had 379 homicides in 2006. That was the most since 1994, when 419 murders were reported, police said. Some cities, such as Cincinnati — which has had 83 homicides so far, up from 79 in 2005 — posted their highest numbers ever. Philadelphia's 2006 homicide total was 403 as of Wednesday, the first time the number has topped 400 in nearly a decade. Los Angeles' total was down about 4 percent to 464 homicides through Dec. 23. Indianapolis has recorded 153 murders, a 54% increase over last year and the most since 1998, when the city recorded a record 162 murders. You can keep preaching that murder is only a Detroit problem, yet when I see murders in other cities in the 400+ range, that tells me that there are approximately the same number of people committing murder in those cities as there are here. The only damn difference is that a good number of these cities have more people living there. So basically what you are saying is we don't need to combat crime, we simply need to get more people to move here. Would you care to explain how this in some how is only a Detroit problem? I read the headlines of other cities quite often, there isn't another city out there that hasn't already registered multiple murders to kick off the new year. Perhaps you need to pay more attention to what goes on in other cities before spouting off atop your soap box." I SAY DOES THAT FACTUAL DATA INCLUDES VIOLENT CRIMES IN ALL AMERICA CITIES HAPPEN IN MOSTLY POOR GHETTOS AND INNER CITIES WHERE MENTAL INTERMENDATION OF BLACKS AND HISPANICS LIVED MORE THAN VIOLENT CRIMES IN THE WHITE COMMUNITIES? YOU BETTER ALL IN WHAT SOURCE DID YOU GET THE DATA FOR IT SEEMS TO THAT YOU JUST WROTE FIRST HALF OF THE VIOLENT CRIMES IN SOME AMERICA CITIES. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8119 Registered: 10-2003 |
One way to help eliminate the crime is to reduce the violence and poverty associated with drugs. It would seem hypocritical to me that anyone that was a supported of the drug trade and drug culture in the city would not preach to others about crime in the city. | ||
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond Post Number: 111 Registered: 02-2004 |
Could someone please introduce the college educated Supersport to the concept of "per capita". | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2061 Registered: 10-2004 |
If only there were rapid transit, then the perp could have gotten quickly to a better job for $7.50/hour in the exburbs. | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1286 Registered: 11-2003 |
Poor decision? Getting caught smoking pot is a poor decision, stealing your mom's car for a joyride is a poor decision, sneaking out of the house to have sex with your girlfriend is a poor decision... Stabbing two people is not a poor decision, it's murder. | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 107 Registered: 12-2006 |
Huh? So what exactly is your point??? this just doesn't make a lot of sense at all. And why exclude Philly??? Philly and detroit are almost EXACTLY the same size (143 v. 142 square miles). So apply your statistical conundrum to that. Philly is the same size as Detroit. No need to expand the boundaries....Philly has 1.5 million people, just less than twice as many as Detroit, yet had 406 homicides, which is less than detroit (I think...what was the final tally?)...for a city with TWICE as many people living in the same basic geographic space. That is a statistical comparison that pretty much speaks for itself. | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 82 Registered: 10-2006 |
Bing! Bing! Bing! We have a winner! Now, what I really don't understand is how statisticians, sociologists, and other professionals who deal in numbers for a living have been doing it wrong all these years. Maybe someone should send them all an email and tell them how to do it right.
| ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 753 Registered: 02-2006 |
Because on a strictly person-by-person basis, your statistical odds of being involved in a murder (again, per-capita, since that's the only benchmark) are higher in Detroit than those numbers presented from New York or Chicago. Independent of who you are, what your job is, who your friends are, or what neighborhood you are in (which are all irrelevant to statistics, but are important to consider in real-life), in Chicago there were 16.4 people killed per 100,000 residents. In New York, there were 7.1 people killed per 100,000 residents. In Detroit, there were 45.1 people killed per 100,000 residents. Also, to use another measure that I made up, in New York, there were 1.24 murders per square mile. In Chicago, 1.99 murders per square mile. In Detroit, 2.80 murders per square mile. I love Detroit and all, but people should be angry about this, not trying to explain it away on some kind of statistical bias. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 479 Registered: 08-2006 |
I've been to Cheli's once. I liked it, I plan on going back. Glad to hear Chelios is going to keep it open. I think we should all show our support and go there. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2065 Registered: 10-2004 |
Focusonthed, doesn't it seem as if many of DY's experts on virtually everything cannot grasp simple statistics and probability. It's futile to try to make up for years of academic abuse on their part by attempting to enlighten them. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 671 Registered: 01-2005 |
"Glad to hear Chelios is going to keep it open. I think we should all show our support and go there." That is what he says for public consumption. Good luck to him to find people willing to work there. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 756 Registered: 02-2006 |
I'm sure he'll have no trouble finding employees. They may have to pay more attention to background checks on busboys though. | ||
Southwestmap Member Username: Southwestmap Post Number: 672 Registered: 01-2005 |
I have heard that he is privately saying that he will close that restaurant. It was not doing well before and will likely turn into a place of voyeuristic attraction like the site of Nicole Simpson's murder - which was torn down, as was the restaurant where Ron Brown worked. | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 757 Registered: 02-2006 |
LOL. | ||
Pam Member Username: Pam Post Number: 826 Registered: 11-2005 |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070105/NEW S01/701050312/1003 | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11087 Registered: 10-2003 |
Per capita...uh yeah, I understand what that means. I also understand the fact that if you look at a lot of the major cities, the number of murders have leveled out to a number that is almost on par with one another. That tells me that there are approximately the same number of bad people in many of the major cities. Per capita, yes, the statistics show that your odds of being a victim of a crime are higher in Detroit. Yet as your per capita statistics point out, it's not because there are more criminals in our city, it's simply because less people live here. Philly is the only comparable city by size who's stats are close to Detroit's, though their population is double. So, if another million people moved here, law abiding citizens, to live amongst the same number of criminals we have now, would crime be as much of a concern as it is to some people? I'm not denying your per capita chance of having a crime committed against you isn't higher here. I'm simply pointing out that there are no more, or in many cases, less criminals within our city than many other cities have. Only difference is we lost half our population. | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2006 |
Whatever happened to the good old days? A shooting in Elmer's just meant something to talk about the next day while bellying up. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3531 Registered: 10-2003 |
Sport dont forget that there is also a correlation between the lack of opportunities and crime as well. The major difference is that Detroit lacks many opportunities for legitimate and meaningful employment which can lead to more people turning to crime. Once again I myself am not trying to justify or belittle that like murder or crimes in general, but merely stating the fact that per capita as well there are more people who are unemployed or working for what amounts to slave wages and struggling. When someone who is just barely making it when trying to work a legitimate job all of a sudden loses it, they may not be in the most rational mindset hence the brutality of this crime. The age of the suspect in this crime is a major factor as well. Some people handle the stress of a lost occupation much better than others, and I would argue that that would be the majority of those that find themselves in that situation. However as I stated before, before one sits there and makes a broad statement based on one particular statistic that Detroit is the most dangerous city out there because of crime they need to look at all the stats out there and determine WHY, and what the factors are that lead up to that. Crime increases as the the amount of available opportunities diminishes. You want to find out how it feels to have nothing to lose, put yourself in a situation where you have virtually no options and then lose the one thing that you DO have and then see how sane you are after the fact. People are not inherently evil, however when they feel as if they are backed into a corner and act on impulse, do realize that they may not be in the most rational state of mind. Once again I am not excusing this murder because he did take the lives of two people. What I am doing is trying to bolster Sports argument about people's infatuation with per-capita statistics. Another correlation is the fact that crime has only risen slightly, due to the fact that the population of the city is dropping. Another thing that you may want to look at. Most of the crime that happens in the city when it deals with violent ones is that they are not random. Almost all of the victims and assailants have some kind of relationship to each other, or know each other in one way shape or form. So it isn't like criminals are waiting in the wings in the city for some unsuspecting suburbanite or out of towner to come in so they can inflict great bodily harm on them. A visitor to this city is far less likely to be a victim of a violent crime than a resident of the city unless you are in an area doing something that you have no business doing (like buying drugs and contributing to the black market economy CL since you dont remember admitting that. So since you don't, go on and remain in your self induced state of amnesia {or should I say stay stuck on stupid}). Yes on paper it would appear that Detroit (as I heard on the History Channel one day), would be comparable to Dodge City a little over a century ago. But crime doesnt just happen on scale like this spontaneously. There are always reasons FOR it to happen. For every effect there is a cause remember that. So if you want to quote one stat as if it is gospel then look at all the other related ones as well. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2010 Registered: 07-2004 |
Wrong stylin I said to show me where I admitted something.Not that it matters. Anyhow I changed.I stopped buying drugs in Detroit and everywhere else so this continuing crticism of me is frankly stupid.You all should be glad I changed.As if somehow my past behavior has anything to do with Detroit's intractable crime problem What my past allows me is insight into behavior.But I don't like the word insight it is too pretty.I just knows that the bullshit you write stylin is enough to make me puke.You have it all wrong.You mitigate an evil brutal act of murder by saying some crap about slave wages(that would be zero)and opportunity and who the hell knows what else as somehow being relevant_ it aint. I know that people commit crimes because they think they can get away with it. So forget your nonsense about slave wages (no such thing) and lak of opportunity and try to understand the simple idea that people do shit because they can get away with it. Detroit has a horrible crime problem and a culture of violence.Mostly because there appears tobe no consequence for horrendous behavior. My own personal contribution was nothing compared to the shit that goes on every hour of every day and as I said I stopped _ time for you to try another approach this one aint working | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3535 Registered: 10-2003 |
Citylover have you ever or have you not ever bought drugs from within the City of Detroit. If so and you have never said it then how the hell would I know? And I know w/o question that you did say it becuase it turned into a big thing where the entire forum basically chastised you on your participation in that illegal economy. But of course, like I said before. Self inflicted amnesia is common place when it is so much easier to blast an area of their crime problem that they once use to frequent for their own personal 'rushes'. Tell you what. Before I do this search you tell me whether or not you have ever NOT said that you have bout your illegal product in the city. Come clean now before I dig into the archives and discredit you for good... | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2006 |
OK. what is this babble? why do so many posters feel the need to vacantly rationalize and prattle on about half-baked theories with little or no empirical or logical foundation. Sounds like fun....let me try: So, according to SSport, there are lots of "bad people" in Detroit, but perhaps no more than any other city, including cities with anywhere from 2 to 8 times the population...in fact, you are twice as likely to run into a "bad person" [read:murderer] in Detroit than you are in Philly. According to the above quote, crime has only "risen slightly," as the population keeps dropping. uh huh. so let's extrapolate the death cycle out to the future, when the only people left in Detroit will essentially be murderers, thieves, rapists etc., all unemployed mind you (and therefore excusable) but that will be misleading, because the population dropped and all the non-evildoers left town. what is left are the unemployed and unemployable criminals....so statistics are misleading. end of babble. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2011 Registered: 07-2004 |
Detroit stylin forgive me but stop being dumb.Obviously I admitted I bought drugs in Detroit.I did it in my most recent post. My buying drugs the last of which was over sixteen years ago has nothing to do with the violence in Detroit now. Your attempts to discredit me and in turn somehow desperately rationalize murder and violence is so transparent and silly and dishonest. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3537 Registered: 10-2003 |
No CL I did not in anyway connect your bad habits to a murder that happened at the beginning of this year. But what I did do-and do constantly is criticize you for blasting the city so bad for a crime problem that you yourself admittedly supported with your own bad habits no matter whether it was 60 yrs ago, last year, or last week. It don't matter you were still a part of the problem then and instead of being a part of a solution all you want to do is sing that same tired old "Crime is so horrible in Detroit" that you have been singing for the last almost eight years, when once upon a time you were such an active participant. You have the same tired mentality of other suburbanites or out of towners who come to the city do their illicit shit, then high tail it out of town and then say "Damn Detroit is a crime filled hell hole, they need to do something about the crime problem", while convincing your non druggie friends that Detroit was not a safe place to be. Were you saying that when you were getting high in the city 16 years ago? Probably so, and more than likely you are doing it now as well. I said all that to say this... ...QUIT BEING A FUCKIN HIPPOCRITE! | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8122 Registered: 10-2003 |
As said by thousands of others. Situations like Detroit do not arise overnight.
Drug related violence leads to families moving out (in even greater numbers). communities suffer, business and opportunity leave, etc. While you may have been a very small piece of the situation and the ramifications that we are now dealing with today. Any junkie, current or ex, that dismissed their actions as easily as you do says a whole lot about their character. every junkie, current or ex, that has supported the drug trade in the city is indirectly responsible for murders and loss of population and business. Your annoying rhetoric would be more more tolerable if you weren't so convinced that your actions and your support of the violent drug trade (during its most violent times) has no effect on the city. Take some responsibility and your preaching will be a little more tolerable to those of us dealing with and trying to correct problems that you were a part of. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3538 Registered: 10-2003 |
THANK YOU Jt1.... Unfortunately it is only going to fall on deaf ears (or blind eyes)... | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11089 Registered: 10-2003 |
What a fuckin' cop out! Yeah, your buying drugs back in the day had absolutely no impact on crime today. You ever think that perhaps there were kids in that neighborhood? You ever think that perhaps your dealers might have had kids? You think that kids growing up watching dealers sell and junkies buy didn't instill in them that it was a lifestyle that was ok? You're probably right, the vast majority probably grew up fine and are now attending Harvard, all because of the influence you and your dealers had upon them back 16 years ago. Pat yourself on the back and tell yourself what a good job you did CL! | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2012 Registered: 07-2004 |
My dealers son was murdered..............in detroit. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11090 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oh, well fuck man, you can sleep well at night knowing that your influence at least didn't screw up one life eh? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8123 Registered: 10-2003 |
Let me help rephrase it for you (with an assumption worked in): My dealers son was murdered..............in detroit. He was murdered as a result of an illegal and violent trade that I helped support. Although another junkie may not have pulled the trigger he probably paid for the bullet. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3539 Registered: 10-2003 |
Wow probably due to the lifestyle that he was living that you helped support right CL? But then again, you were a user the only person you affected was yourself huh...not the dealer you bought from that got rich off of you or other people like you convinced him to stay in the game...not his son who was quite possibly murdered either by association with his father or because he may have gotten into the game himself because he saw how lucrative the business was...not the neighborhood where drug sales took place because of course everyone stayed there, property values went up, because of the lack of crime....not the kids who lived in the hood where you bought your drugs from because they had no worries about being caught up in the cross fire from rival dealers, nor did they ever have to be witness to people coming into their neighborhoods to buy drugs... So you are right CL. You have in no way contributed to crime or conditions in the city because of course...the only one that you have ever hurt was you. Hippocrite Oh and let me add one more thing you may have wanted to say. "I'm a criminal that got away with crime for years beucause I bought drugs....in Detroit." PS change your name as well, as it seems to be an oxymoron... (Message edited by Detroit_stylin on January 05, 2007) | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2013 Registered: 07-2004 |
Jt1 if I dismissed my activities I would not have stopped.I don't expect any commendations really but can't you see how transparent it is to "blame" me? And how to put something on anyone that changed how they were including me is backwards........I'm not the one to be angry with. | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2014 Registered: 07-2004 |
I did not know you knew my dealers son jt1.......he was murdered while being robbed..........in detroit in 1988. | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2006 |
Listen, D_stylin, if you are going to edit any more of your posts, please correct you spelling of "hypocrite". I keep on thinking of a freaking hippo trying to lecture about keeping lakes clean for swimming. It detracts from your argument when you spell like a 5th grader. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3541 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well Dds does the misspelling of one word make my rebuttal any less relevant? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8124 Registered: 10-2003 |
\quoteJt1 {if I dismissed my activities I would not have stopped.} Did you stop for your own well being or to stop abusing the community that you supported the drug trade. My point was that you dismiss the fact that you have any direct or indirect connection to crime then and crime now.
There is blame in many, many places. One of which is in the drug trade. A trade that you helped stay profitable during your days. I am not blaming you for the state of the city now but your unwillingness to acknowledge that you had any role in crime or worsening the quality of life in the city is piptiful. There is certainly a lot of blame to go around. The point I am making is that you and thousands of others like you played a part in Detroit's demise but think that you now have the right to preach about how horrible the city is, how the residents don't care, how they (anyone but yourself) should do something to improve the situation. Detroiters are still hurting themselves and the city but that doesn't change the fact that you have done the same. The problems is that they aren't preaching to others how 'they should do something or 'they' screwed up. Harm the city and the residents but don't be a damn hypocrite about it. How many bullets did you pay for when your money was passed on to the dealer? Did it have any effect on the Cheli's murder? NO. Did it have an effect on the city, residents, quality of life in the city, etc. Yes. You might have been one termite but you and tens of thousands such as yourselves helped eat away the foundation. I did not know your dealers son and his murder was probably tragic. I can see that you cared so much for him you helped keep his father in business and made sure that the drug trade was what he grew up knowing. A modern damn Solanus Casey caring for all the poor dealers. | ||
Supersport Member Username: Supersport Post Number: 11091 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not to mention, how many people did CL help drive out of the city because they were tired of living in an area where junkies came to buy drugs to get their fix. Seriously man, how can you say you didn't help play a part in Detroit's decline 16 years ago? How can you honestly wipe your hands free of blood and point out the problems, claiming you didn't play a part? For all of your bitching about Detroit's problems I'm not sure I've ever ONCE heard you contribute as to how to fix the problem, aside from "DETROIT HAS TO REDUCE CRIME!" How about you get your ex-junkie ass into Detroit's neighborhoods and schools, start lecturing on how back in the day you were part of this city's problem, how many of your listeners in the audience are likely heading down the same path you once traveled. Instead of watching from a distance, if you truly are a Citylover, why aren't you doing something more than arguing your point on the internet? | ||
Buddyinrichmond Member Username: Buddyinrichmond Post Number: 113 Registered: 02-2004 |
LMAOLMAOLMAOLOLOLOLOL! | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 90 Registered: 10-2006 |
Sort of. When you do it repeatedly, once in all capital letters. I know typing in the heat of battle can be challenging, but I like to think that most of us can pay attention to the spell checking feature before they finalize the post. Now, back to your regularly scheduled flames. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3542 Registered: 10-2003 |
^^^5 on the last sentence Sport... Simply because of this. He now lives in Ann Arbor where the crime is not so dangerously rampant. It's much easier to complain from afar about an area that no longer affects you, instead of manning up to the ghosts of your past and doing something to help alleviate those problems that you once contributed to. Its easier to through out tired catch-phrases like 'broken window' theories, even when you were one of the ones that was throwing stones. Forum forgive me for derailing this thread but CL has really gotten on my last nerve with his empty rhetoric about how bad the crime is in the city when he used to be one of the factors that perpetuated the 'culture of violence' that he so quickly bangs out on his self-righteous drum. The point that I was trying to make before it devolved into this tangent of putting a hypocrite in his place is this: For every stat that shows how Detroit has so much more crime as other large cities in this country they tend to over look other stats that correlates to the trends (ie. unemployment, poverty, underfunded schools, lack of opportunities, etc that out of towners and suburbanites dont deal with or take for granted. Sport makes excellent points with the stats(facts) that he has posted yet no one seems to want to take into account that crimes dont just come about because someone doesn't have jack else to do. Getting back the this kid that committed this murder, there is NO excuse for it, nor will I try justify it. But to try to turn Detroit into a modern day Dodge city is disingenious at best, and a cop out for people who don't have to live here nor feel any obligation to do anything about it. SO unless you are actively trying to do something to combat the crime issue, especially if you were a contributor to it then you don't have a damn thing to complain about because you don't live with it, nor do you do anything for the community to make it better. Bitching about it doesn't do a damn thing to help those who still live here that see it on a daily basis. | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 111 Registered: 12-2006 |
so it's just "empty rhetoric? You mean these crimes didn't really happen?
so therefore...what exactly? it's not really crime because we can absolve everyone of blame and pin it on unemployment, poverty, underfunded schools and suburbanites? talk about yer empty rhetoric....that's a tired and bald excuse that gets retreaded every few posts. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3543 Registered: 10-2003 |
Detroitrulez....what are you doing to better the lives of the citizens of this city aside from surgically dissecting my posts and looking (vainly) for faults? | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 112 Registered: 12-2006 |
oh I dunnow....calling bullschitt I guess. I didn't realize this was a "mine is bigger than yours" type of contest. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3845 Registered: 10-2003 |
get this thread back on track or close it. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 9130 Registered: 10-2003 |
D_S. Because someone has played a part in a crime doesn't mean they don't have a right to say crime is out of control, especially when it is clearly so. How many former gang members have come back to their neighbourhoods and done something positive? How many former addicts have turned their lives around and saved others? Just because someone WAS a part of the problem doesn't mean they can't be a part of the solution. No one died and made anyone of us King of Detroit. All of you need to get over yourselves! | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2015 Registered: 07-2004 |
I appreciate Detroitrulez being here.I also am not surprised at the response toward me here; it is typical and not just here. As a comparison I have a friend that consistently tells me when I caution my children ....." You did it"....... meaning you have no business preaching.That is bullshit.I have every right and duty to bitch and preach.I have been to the woods I know it is not good in the woods why in the hell would I not tell someone I cared about. The same mentality is at work here.Because I admit to once buying drugs in Detroit I am stuck on stupid and have no credibility_ more bullshit. To be specific: I have never said Detroit is a horrible place.I say that crime has devastated Dtroit contibues to and is a city with a culture of violence_ is that really a preposterous observation?_ of course not Jt1 what difference does it make why I cleaned things up? If I said I did not do it for the betterment of the community would you prefer I go back to the old ways until I decided I had to quit for the betterment of Detroit or anywhere else? That is silly. Why I stopped is obvious.Who and how it benefited is only relevant in that it did benefit not what my sentiments at the time or even now are. More clarification: I have always lived in A2 so it is not some safe getaway from the big bad Detroit it is my hometown. Stylin, I reject the idea that poverty causes crime.Because of my past I know the mindset of the typical low class garden variety shithead.Generally they are compulsive.They don't want to work because they can't grasp the idea of haveing to wait two weeks to be paid. So they steal from family members et,al.They live off their parents many of them and often they dump their own offspring off on their parents as well.The last damn thing they are thinking is I have to steal to eat and feed my family.That would imply some sort of moral and ethical barometer something they have long ago buried. I got lucky.So have others. It can be done. But unitl the behavior is stopped there is no hope. Now Patrick I agree back on topic if possible. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 110 Registered: 12-2006 |
PLEASE! Lets not turn this into that Detroit Police thread. Get this back on topic. Anyone know if the guy got bail? Not that I think he would. |
