Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2007 » What will happen with our sculptures on the Wayne County Bldg? « Previous Next »
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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 19
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 5:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Where are the our sculptures on the Wayne County Bldg? They were suppost to be restored and returned. What has happen?



several years ago when the pieces were still up there.




the pieces have been taken down



they were so quickly taken down that they left the metal plates partially taken up from the roof.








there is quite a bit of weather damage, but restorable with the right hand.




These sculptures can and must be re-stored instead of just stored.
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Rrl
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Username: Rrl

Post Number: 706
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 6:56 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think they went for auction right after Kwame found out that some morons will actually pay nearly $6MM for a damn copper weathervane.

Sellin' the city-atcha!
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Stecks77
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Username: Stecks77

Post Number: 244
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They are supposedly being cleaned and restored last I heard but when the story hit the news and the public found out that the city was going to pay something like $175,000 to do it, the reaction was very negative considering the financial state of the city.
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Scs100
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Username: Scs100

Post Number: 175
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Heck, restore em. The city needs to look good in some places.
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Bearinabox
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Username: Bearinabox

Post Number: 102
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 9:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sorry for my ignorance, but why is the city of Detroit responsible for restoring the Wayne County Building? Shouldn't Livonia, Northville Township, etc. be chipping in on this one?
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East_detroit
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Username: East_detroit

Post Number: 916
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Just paint them black, like they did to the fist.
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Zephyrprocess
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Username: Zephyrprocess

Post Number: 207
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 10:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

They are supposedly being cleaned and restored last I heard but when the story hit the news and the public found out that the city was going to pay something like $175,000 to do it, the reaction was very negative considering the financial state of the city.



Ironically enough, they are being stored in the swimming pool at the mayoral mansion.
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Cman710
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Username: Cman710

Post Number: 182
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is unfortunate is that the old city hall was razed in the 1960s. That building rivaled the County building in beauty.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 4538
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.detnews.com/2005/me tro/0508/12/A01-278710.htm
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 1283
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 09, 2007 - 11:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'd like to tear down the entire tower. It has no particular use," said Commissioner Bernard Parker, D-Detroit.

What's the saying about casting pearls before swine?

Or the one about taking a Philistine to a fine restaurant?
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 3416
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 12:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cman710, interestingly enough the (1872) Old City Hall was much smaller than the (1900) Old County Building.

We discovered this when we viewed one of the old city maps that Hornwrecker posted. Old City Hall had something like only 1/6 of the footprint that the Old County Building did.

They both looked similar in their Beaux Arts style, but the Old County Building was much larger and actually much more ornate and detailed.
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Dialh4hipster
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Username: Dialh4hipster

Post Number: 1888
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 1:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who are you??

You seem like a rabble-rouser.
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Stecks77
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Username: Stecks77

Post Number: 247
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 7:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks for the link Jams. I stand corrected.
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56packman
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Username: 56packman

Post Number: 889
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 8:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, they are green, that usually means copper--do ya think?
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Cman710
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Username: Cman710

Post Number: 186
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 10:40 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, thanks for that information. Since I am going by old photographs, I did not realize there was such a dramatic difference in footprints of the two buildings.

On another note, all of those of us who care about historic preservation have to do our best to stop the Commissioner Bernard Parker's of the world, who want to tear down anything and everything historical.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1729
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 12:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I can't find the one I posted before, so here's a general map from the 1930s:

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Gsgeorge
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Username: Gsgeorge

Post Number: 75
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 1:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

if viewed from Cadillac Square, it looks like City Hall and the County Bldg would've appeared similar in size, but clearly City Hall was narrower and probably not as tall. Too bad we lost it... What were these people thinking?
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Stecks77
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Username: Stecks77

Post Number: 249
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 1:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

They weren't.
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Cman710
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Username: Cman710

Post Number: 187
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 1:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Hornwrecker. From that map, you can definitely tell the County building was bigger, though it does not appear that the County Building is 6x as large in footprint. When I get a chance, I will try to see if I can post a shot from the DTE/Wayne State aerial photos. It would be my first photo post here.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 3420
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 2:11 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I was guessing from memory at 6 times the size. We still don't know the exact dimensions, since we don't have a "complete" map of the County Building AND old city hall.

Back in the early 1960's there was no such thing as "historic preservation"... at least not as we know it today. That's why Old City Hall is gone.

That is also why (around the same time) they ripped out the wonderful old ornate interior of the Fisher Theatre and put in the brass, marble and Teak modern subdued interior we have today.
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Cman710
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Username: Cman710

Post Number: 190
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 2:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, you are right. Historic preservation did not really come about until the 1960's. In New York, the destruction of the old Penn Station (built in 1910), one of the most beautiful railroad stations in the world, helped to spark concern about historical preservation. Today's Penn Station, by contrast, is small, cramped, and has no style or windows. (They are actually considering moving the station across the street into an older building more space.) The old one was really large, airy and full of light and windows, and beautiful.

For some pictures of the old Penn Station, in its full glory and also being taken apart, see the following link:
http://www.nyc-architecture.co m/GON/GON004.htm
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Rickinatlanta
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Username: Rickinatlanta

Post Number: 23
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 3:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That looks very similar to the train station in Milan that my wife and I had the chance to see after we missed our stop and had to turn around there. A really beautiful station for anyone who ever has a chance to see it.
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Hornwrecker
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Username: Hornwrecker

Post Number: 1730
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 4:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)



Finally found the aerial from ?, it was in an unlabled folder. I've been trying to reorganize all the photos and maps, but hadn't gotten to this one yet.

It's hard to find an aerial of Downtown that doesn't have deep shadows, usually over the building you want to see.
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Cman710
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Username: Cman710

Post Number: 198
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 10:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks, Hornwrecker. Is that from the DTE/Wayne aerials?
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Cman710
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Username: Cman710

Post Number: 199
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 10:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

1956 Downtown

Here is another picture. It still has shadows, but shows a slightly different view.
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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 23
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, January 10, 2007 - 11:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The quadriga has all the trimming it would nice to have ours back, world flair is surely missing.


http://images.google.com/imgre s?imgurl=http://upload.wikimed ia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb /2/22/Berlin-brandenburg-gate. jpg/250px-Berlin-brandenburg-g ate.jpg&imgrefurl=http://en.wi kipedia.org/wiki/Brandenburg_G ate&h=186&w=250&sz=10&hl=en&st art=13&tbnid=sRhij5CN6BioAM:&t bnh=83&tbnw=111&prev=/images%3 Fq%3Dbrandenburg%2Bgate%26svnu m%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26sa% 3DN



http://images.google.com/imgre s?imgurl=http://www.vad1.com/p hoto/stock/a82-8-4.jpg&imgrefu rl=http://www.vad1.com/photo/s tock/a82-8.html&h=1024&w=1536& sz=189&hl=en&start=6&tbnid=2Ck sI9AiRgNhKM:&tbnh=100&tbnw=150 &prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbrandenbur g%2Bgate%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3De n%26lr%3D%26sa%3DN
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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 26
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 12:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The story on the Spirit of Detroit was nice, but there is more work to do. The city can always call on the metaldoctor to do the job right, let's hope they do. Especially if they want the sculpture to last another 50yrs!!
P.S.
There will be a rebroadcast of the metaldoctor's humble beginning appearing on HGTV, click the link below to view date and time.



http://www.fineliving.com/fine /modern_masters/episode/0,2760 ,FINE_27936_46641,00.html
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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, January 24, 2007 - 4:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Alert! Alert!
Metal doctor estimates total value of sculptures of the Wayne county court house could exceed $150 Million to $180 Million.
Someone may want to ask Sotheby’s, Or the Smithsonian.

http://www.shareholder.com/bid /downloads/news/20061006-21383 7.pdf

http://www.cr.nps.gov/nr/trave l/detroit/d14.htm

Fact: compatible work fabricated / crafted in the same year, in the same place, in the same technique by the same group of people with the same craftsmanship.

Fact: these sculptures are fine reposse work instead of rustic casting.

Fact: metal doctor inspected some of the all ready completed work of the four sculptures on the tower, report and pictures pending.

(Message edited by metaldoctor on January 24, 2007)
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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 35
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 10:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

These are not being restored through guidelines set forth by the state historic preservation office. I was only able to take a few shot from ground level across the street, before security chased us away. need better close ups can someone post some.

















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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 337
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

While I don't expect the new upfits of these to be as perfect as the day they were originally installed, that does look pretty shoddy. It only takes the genius of even a basic General Contractor to notice many possibly mistakes. You are right, from those far away photos it is difficult to judge how incorrect these 'improvements' were done. Hopefully there is a backer rod for that large caulk joint and those brackets could be possibly created of something that wouldn't cause a reaction. Also I could potentially understand that they might not be 'repairing' the statues, but just reinstalling them. That seems as though it would not be necessarily inappropriate. If it is dented, but that doesn't cause further damage, then why wouldn't you leave it as is so as not to potentially further destroy the work of art...
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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 39
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Please click on Standards containing background references and support data
And

Repair Procedures for the correction of material deterioration and failure

http://w3.gsa.gov/__852565c500 543eb4.nsf?OpenDatabase




http://w3.gsa.gov/web/p/HPTP.N SF/02e2bfa0e29bc7dc852565cc005 90728/dd871e2628734b22852565c5 0054b5fc?OpenDocument





http://w3.gsa.gov/web/p/HPTP.N SF/908cfae2e890e1d7852565cc005 91125/4c2b8ab388acd455852565c5 0054b5f0?OpenDocument





http://w3.gsa.gov/web/p/HPTP.N SF/908cfae2e890e1d7852565cc005 91125/b3e7065dcfdd9814852565c5 0054b7b8?OpenDocument
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 340
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 1:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have an M. Arch. degree out of UDM. Although I have an interest in historic preservation, classes never get that detailed! So thanks for the links boss. I guess we can assume that those doing the installations and upgrades failed to make themselves aware of the information to which we are all now privy. Do we happen to know who the contractor was so that in future posts and threads we can proceed to critique their poor attempts?
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Quinn
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Username: Quinn

Post Number: 1086
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 1:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ahem...for those of you making fun of the city and it's poverty. This building is owned by the county, and anything to do with it, I'm sure, is paid for with funds directed and created by the Wayne County Exec, Ficano, and not the City of Detroit Mayor, Kilpatrick.
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 1343
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 2:00 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually the building is owned by Farbman
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 342
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 2:07 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

yeah I wouldn't have imagined that the county would want to be in the business of building management: I am not really surprised that they would rather just lease it. I was not intending to make fun of city or county gov., just the contractor that did the work...
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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 44
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Sunday, January 28, 2007 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crafted from pattern this is fine copper reposse metal work, additional chiseling create the pattern of each single feather mechanical fastening methods concealed, with a gold-plated finish.

This is not a casting and can not be duplicated by this method, only the same skilled craftsman has the ability.























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Dead_monk
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Username: Dead_monk

Post Number: 2
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 9:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Wayne County Courthouse sculptures are in the process of being restored by a reputable sculpture conservator. No need to worry.
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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 52
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If this is the same reputable conservator who restored “The Four Corner Sculptures” he may know how conserve rustic cast bronze sculptures, but does not know the methods of proper restoration of fine reposse craft.



In response to the inspection of the four statues located on the Wayne County Courthouse Tower, I strongly object to the methods of the unprofessional repair.


1.) Common use of methods uses for installing gutters and downspouts:
Using small 2”x2” copper cutouts and pop rivets them together in the most crudest manner, a third grade body shop might do. Trying to fill the consequent joints by smudging solder over the entire repair area and, It left the appearance of an unprofessional hack job verse any professional preservation or restoration performed by standards, instead hundreds of pop-rivets visible to the naked eye.

2.) The original metal on each base is cut and replaced by a common drip-edge you might find at “Home Depot cd’s similar metals” verse preservation and restoration of the original metalwork reposse.

3.) Prevention of galvanic reaction:
By introducing stainless steel brackets and base galvanic reaction will occur by direct contact of the dissimilar metal.

4.) Voids and Spaces
The sculptures are re-mounted too far from its original position, doubling the amount of tuck pointing material. Open spaces at all mounting brackets and bases will invite weather and insect penetration, open solder joint will invite future corrosion.


The Metal-Doctor

(Message edited by metaldoctor on January 31, 2007)
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Gambling_man
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Username: Gambling_man

Post Number: 943
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 1:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Metaldoctor, for someone so versed in metal, you sure don't know how to spell "solder"....
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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 55
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 9:23 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for the correction.......
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Me2007
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Username: Me2007

Post Number: 5
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 6:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Seems like metaldoctor is right, if these things are being restored, then they have to be done better then they were done before. Metaldoctor seems to know what the problems are and how to fix them maybe he should take a crack at them.
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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 67
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 9:26 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is the secrecy? I really hoped by now there would be some reaction. This subject is of the utmost importance for the restoration community and especially for craftsmen able to perform this ancient art.

Art the financial aspect available to the public.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 77
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 7:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm pretty sold that Metaldoctor should fix the statues. So now what, is there a petition I can sign? ;)
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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 73
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 10:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J._Massey_Rhind

This information on the artist J._Massey_Rhind.

There are similar sculptures in Germany hundreds of years older















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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 85
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 3:27 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The chariots are not quadarige, there are only three horses.
Would anyone know the correct classifications for theses sculptures?



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Metaldoctor
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Username: Metaldoctor

Post Number: 88
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Please note that I did not intend to discredit, downgrade or embarrass anyone, I love Detroit and my heritage and I feel that if I don’t that the art and craftsmanship would lost forever, therefore prompting me to post pictures and text of the problems that I see. Architectural ornamental metal work is my lifetime conviction and I stand ready for twenty years to make Detroit a better place. Again my most sincere apologies to anyone I have offended.

Sincerely,

The Metal-Doctor
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 127
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 15, 2007 - 4:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Who's offended? If it's the people in charge of taking care of this amazing artwork, then they should be embarassed.

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