  Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 363 Registered: 06-2006 |
Sounds like they're finally starting to accept reality...the tone of the article indicates that they are finally conceding defeat... http://www.mlive.com/news/aane ws/index.ssf?/base/news-20/116 4728827195460.xml&coll=2 | ||
1953 Member Username: 1953 Post Number: 1169 Registered: 12-2004 |
BAMN should have no problem shooting this down in court, since they are so loved by law abiding citizens everywhere. | ||
Bratt Member Username: Bratt Post Number: 432 Registered: 01-2004 |
Hey you people: I don't post much anymore, but I just read that /Cox is going to make sure there are no delays in implementing Proposal 2. I have to post my opinion. White people say down with Proposal 2 because they feel like it isn't fair. They feel that everyone should be admitted into college fairly...not based on your color. Or even better, when applying for that job, race should not play a factor. Whites think they are being passed up because of their color. Well I say.....so f'ing what? We have been dealing with that for years. Getting passed up for jobs, promotions, etc...because of race. So just because it is happening to the white people now, please change the laws...it isn't fair. Give me a friggin' break. We have always had to be 10 times better than the "man" to get a job or even a promotion. Hell, they tell us to name our children normal names so when they apply for jobs, the "man" doesn't know what color they are when calling for interviews. It just pisses me off to the extreme. We still go throug the same crap today.....but when it happens to white people, they cry and scream! See how it feels? Not too good huh? Sure get rid of affirmative action if the world was a perfect world and racism didn't exist, but it still does. Walk in our shoes for a day and then talk to us. I can't wait until the Hispanics are the majority. Oh believe me, it is coming..sooner than you think. When they are the majority, I bet you a million dollars that whites are going to try to get affirmative action implemented again....to help them out! I can't wait!•••••••••••••• | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 25 Registered: 10-2006 |
Well I guess UMich will decline in the rankings. Some people will reject the school based on the appearance of intolerance. Prop 2 was a terrible thing for the school and the state and will have economic repercussions. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3368 Registered: 10-2003 |
Funny how some whites feel as if Prop 2 had treated them unfairly and made them a victim of discrimination... I would like to read exactly WHO here had been a victim of discrimination becuase of Affirmative Action, and how do you know it was becuase of that or becuase the person of color was better qualified than you? It was mighty funny how People of Color were "exagerating" the effects of racism and discrimination if they even acknowledged that it existed. And only after 40 odd years of AA, then they want to get their panties in a bunch and cry racism. Who can really tell me from this board that they have truly been discriminated against personally? I guarantee you that every Person of Color that you will cross paths with will tell you one of several stories where they have. <<<waiting for real responses... | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1096 Registered: 03-2005 |
I can. My mother's former boss was a good friend with the Dean at the University of Chicago. My GPA was near 4.0 in high school and I was involved in many extracurricular activities (in addition to running my own landscaping business full time). I had an 'in' if you will. It didn't matter. I was told that unless I could come up with a check for $28,000 per year, my chances were virtually nil that I would be granted admission. When we inquired as to why, the Dean's response was that I was white and outside of being from a poor family had no perceived disadvantages. My academic achievements meant nothing. I needed to be poor and have been born with a different pigmentation. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 433 Registered: 05-2006 |
I wonder when somebody will start a petition to ban preferences based on a family legacy. After all, that's how W got into Yale, most likely at the expense of someone who was more qualified with no legacy. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 5416 Registered: 09-2005 |
Bratt said: "We have been dealing with that for years." You sound young enough that AA has been in effect your entire life. So what's your beef? Then Bratt said: "they tell us to name our children normal names" Hello Cher? White folks, along with everyone else, have been told that for centuries. You want a job? Fit in with the boss and the customers, then work hard. Don't want to fit in? Don't want to work hard? Then match those "talents" to a business owner who's looking for the same. Detroitej72, you should be a happy camper. Go to the Ivy League schools and you'll see plenty of color, scholarships, etc. Now with AA gone, perhaps the playing field will be, for once, level in everyone's eyes (well, except for stylin, he's never happy) | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 977 Registered: 01-2004 |
I was thinking the same thing. What about all the family hook ups, and opportunities simply given to those lucky enough to be born into privileged family. We don't even have to go as far as the Bush example, how many meat heads have I known in school to go "My dad got me an interview /internship at _____" | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3371 Registered: 10-2003 |
No Tetsua, white men have it soooooooooooo hard in America... | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 600 Registered: 08-2005 |
That's the funniest thing I've read all night. Thanks for the laugh. Yes, I'm sure the best and brightest high school students all across America will now turn up their noses at UofM because it isn't "diverse" enough for them. After all, on the list of reasons to choose a college, I'm sure most people put "sufficient percentage of students with a different skin color than myself" ahead of such trivial concerns as academic prestige. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 5419 Registered: 09-2005 |
And poor booboo stylin has it soooooooooo good in America - for most/all of his life he's had entitlements, Great Society, GI Bill, veterans bennies, etc etc etc. And what an encouragement for continuation of such programs when all stylin does on these threads is say "thank you, thank you, thank you America for this opportunity - I'm so glad I was born here and not in Sudan or Cuba or Mexico or ?? because here I'm free - while the Sudanese, Cubans & Mexicans fight to get in, legally or not, just to have what I have!" Yup, word-for-word stylin all the way. Tetsua, maybe you ought to go back to the roots of some of those universities and check out who founded them, who gave bucks to build the buildings etc. Want one exclusively for yourself? Build one. Want a private one that only you and your friends can get into? Build one. That being said, how is it that these campuses are crowded with disadvantaged folks of all backgrounds and nationalities, most there with partial/complete financial assistance - often paid for by the same folks who built the rest of it. But as I said, check it out for yourself, and if you don't like what you see, build one yourself. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 601 Registered: 08-2005 |
Do you want to know why race-based AA is racist? Because it makes assumptions based on skin color, it assigns characteristics to individuals based on solely on skin color. In essence, it stereotypes. It assumes that ALL black people, regardless of their lot in life (maybe an upper-middle class black kid from the burbs who went to Cranbrook) are incapable of competing with whites in terms of grades. It also assumes that all white people, regardless of their lot in life (maybe a kid from the trailer park who grew up in an abusive home) are somehow magically born with the ability to succeed based solely on their racial genetics. And it seems some people here think this as well, some of you seem to think that all white people are born with a silver spoon in their mouths and every door in the educational and business worlds open to them based solely on skin color and every black person has crosses burned in their front lawns and has the n-word screamed at them by whites on a daily basis. Sorry folks, it just isn't the case. Don't sit there and tell me that Kwame's kids or John Conyers' kids are facing "adversity" based on race. Yeah, those kids need a hand-up, such tough lives they lived based on race, I think they need 20 points on their admission applications (8 points more than is given for a perfect ACT score). I'm sorry, but that is fucking racist as shit and I won't support it, stop giving preferential treatment based on race because you ASSUME certain things based on that race. Not all black people have it hard and not all white people have it easy and quite a few of you just sound like bigots in reverse for some of the assumptions you seem to hold. Make it SES-based, it will still help a disproportionate number of African-Americans because of the larger percentage of African-Americans living in poverty, but it won't make ridiculous assumptions like ALL black people need a handout from whites to succeed and it won't ignore white people who grow up in abject poverty and face dilapidated public schools and economic hardships and yes, even discrimination based on class (OMG!)! | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4898 Registered: 10-2003 |
Look at all of the creeps and freaks this pulls out. I guess they don't only just come out at night. | ||
Johnnny5 Member Username: Johnnny5 Post Number: 417 Registered: 06-2005 |
Excellent post Warriorfan. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 427 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Well I guess UMich will decline in the rankings. Some people will reject the school based on the appearance of intolerance. Prop 2 was a terrible thing for the school and the state and will have economic repercussions." As far as the law school goes, it will likely rise in the rankings since the average LSAT scores of admitted applicants will rise now that test scores will trump skin color during the admissions process...I would assume the same will happen for the undergrad colleges... Besides, CA passed the same law 10 years ago and there were no negative effects on the UC system's rankings (Message edited by thejesus on December 28, 2006) | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 9086 Registered: 10-2003 |
A level playing field? The playing field hasn't even been approached yet. Let AA sit around for 400 years and then look at how it has impacted the nation. Until the legacy of hatred has been far removed from everyone's family AA should not have been scrapped. As D_S said. The white man has/had it soooooooo hard! | ||
Gildas Member Username: Gildas Post Number: 925 Registered: 12-2004 |
"I have a dream that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character. I have a dream today." Martin Luther King, Jr. August 28, 1963. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 428 Registered: 06-2006 |
Goat: It's not about "the white man"...it's about individuals... not every white person is privileged as you seem to believe, and under your system of AA, non-privileged white people get screwed...and perhaps you don't care about them, but many of us do... this fixes things...AA in college admissions will now be based on socio-economic status, which means that underprivileged white people will be given special considerations along with underprivileged minorities, and privileged minorities who don't need special consideration will no longer get it... Sounds like a pretty good system, unless, of course, you were a member of the group that neither needed nor deserved special consideration but used to it anyway... (Message edited by thejesus on December 28, 2006) (Message edited by thejesus on December 28, 2006) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 249 Registered: 04-2006 |
The average ACT score at U-M won't budge much at all. It was about a 30 when I was a freshman (back when it was still the 2nd highest rated public school in the country, it's now the 3rd) and minority scores did little to impact that. It's funny because after the Supreme Court rulings when they were forced to revamp their admissions procedures, the school actually slid in rankings....... | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 380 Registered: 03-2006 |
anyone who is for proposal two and voted for it took part in the single largest setback in civil rights for Michigan in recent memory. Fundamentally it is not a benefit in our society to be non-white or female, but specifically black. Being a white male is a benefit in society, it works to one's advantange undeniably. Ironically though, that privilege is one that we're conditioned not to recognize or realize we have. Most likely in part because white males, unlike non-whites, don't have to deal with race on a constant basis because whiteness has been totally normalized in our society. This whole thing about admissions should all be "equal" is a perfect example of the invisibility of pervasive white privilege . Im not saying that white people are bad, rather Im saying that white people have certain advantages and benefits on a constant and daily basis, small and large, that we don't recognize white provide us benefits that things like affirmative action help (only HELP) to correct. Granted, there are lots of kinds of privilege that affect the way white people benefit like sexuality, gender, economics, etc (so a poor gay white people would obviously have much less privilege than a straight rich male), and affirmative action should reflect that. That means, that all of you who had problems with affirmative action in michigan should have encouraged reforming it so that it reflects all these different kind of privilege . Instead you categorical rejected it, and I actually cried a little when I heard that I cried when I had to say shame on michigan, that state I grew up in, live in, and love. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 429 Registered: 06-2006 |
Apbest: We did reform it, but people won't quit bitching about it long enough to stop and realize it... AA in public college admissions will now be based on socio-economic status instead of skin color...think and about that for 5 minutes and get back to me with any problems with that system that you can identify... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 251 Registered: 04-2006 |
In 5 minutes someone else will be crying about socio-economic consideration and that will be gone too... The will of the privileged is always the law of the land. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 430 Registered: 06-2006 |
"The will of the privileged is always the law of the land." That's bullshit...and your pessimism about the future of the solution to the problems with race-based AA does nothing to make race-based AA seem like any more of an attractive practice | ||
Hagglerock Member Username: Hagglerock Post Number: 372 Registered: 03-2005 |
Cali passed a similar law not too long ago. How is that working out? Honest question. I'm kind of on the fence with regards to the current system of AA, yes we need diversity, but how do you please everyone when human nature is so inherently flawed? I remember one forum member had a very good explanation about the matter a while ago. Lmichigan, you out there? | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 235 Registered: 02-2006 |
I wish everyone who is so against Prop.2 would give specific examples of how I am so privileged because I am a white man. Everyone says that I am but I don't feel that way. I want specific examples. I also want a specific (not perceived) example of how you were discriminated against and what was said. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 252 Registered: 04-2006 |
California did it 10 years ago. It worked out just the way it was intended. There are hardly no black or hispanic students there. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 253 Registered: 04-2006 |
If you could understand by me making a simple 2 sentence response then we wouldn't be having this conversation. I suggest you start with an unbiased history book. Then again, finding an unbiased history book would be a task in itself. | ||
Hooha Member Username: Hooha Post Number: 129 Registered: 06-2005 |
What's my problem with affirmative action? I don't see why we can't put our resources towards developing a race neutral way to help the disadvantaged instead of wasting time defending AA. After all, at some point, assuming it did its job, affirmative action would cease to help lower classes now wouldn't it? Why don't we take the race neutral programs that we're going to have to develop one day and put them in place TODAY? Level the playing field regardless of race. Improve and standardize public schooling across the board. Don't patch up the problem after the damage is done, give kids an equal opportunity K-12. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2028 Registered: 10-2004 |
Detroit News attribution: Racial ban back on for 3 colleges--Court rules admissions policies must comply with Prop 2 right away. Marisa Schultz / The Detroit News A federal appeals court ruled Friday night that Michigan's three largest universities must immediately remove race and gender consideration from their admissions and financial aid decisions and fully comply with Proposal 2. more... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 433 Registered: 06-2006 |
Nice! I just finished reading the opinion... Basically, the MI state courts can enjoin the enactment of a state constitutional amendment, but there is no basis under federal law for doing so... And I hope this excerpt from the opinion will clear up the misconception on this board that AA is the 'law of the land'...because it's not... "The 1st and 14th Amendments to the United States Constitution, to be sure, permit States to use racial and gender preferences under narrowly defined circumstances. But they do not mandate them, and accordingly they do not prohibit a State from eliminating them. In the absence of any likelihood of prevailing in invalidating this state initiative on federal grounds, we have no choice but to permit its enforcement in accordance with the state-law framework that gave it birth." Also, I love the way the 6th circuit shot down BAMN's 14th Amendment argument... "In contending that the Equal Protection Clause compels what it presumptively prohibits, plaintiffs face an uphill climb. The Clause prevents “official conduct discriminating on the basis of race,” ...and on the basis of sex,...not official conduct that bans “discriminat[ion] against” or “preferential treatment to” individuals on the basis of race or sex—as Proposal 2 does." (Message edited by thejesus on December 30, 2006) | ||
Pollybergen Member Username: Pollybergen Post Number: 22 Registered: 12-2006 |
warriorfan, et al, what you've written is very interesting, and perhaps true to an extent. are you familiar with A Class Divided? The reason I am asking is because this teacher proved poor grades from (white) children (many times, with many tests) that were made to feel inferior for just one afternoon. Their ability to succeed was hindered because of the discrimination they faced. And conversely, the children that were made to feel superior succeeded across the board. While the Conyers or the Kilpatricks might have more material wealth than some of the white kids in Detroit, the general stereotype that black americans face in this country is still the same for them. Especially if someone doesn't know their last name. ***edit to say: I was the white kid that grew up in a very unstable home, that had good grades and felt supported in my white school district, and made it into UofM, where I made my first friends of color. (Message edited by pollybergen on December 30, 2006) | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 127 Registered: 05-2006 |
Specific examples: I qualified for the National Merit Scholarship, but never received a dime because there were only funds for minority students at UM.(fact) I had to defer admission to the UM for a year (don't know if being a minority would have helped there or not) I missed getting a government job because I was not a minority.(fact) I was turned down for another position at UM because I was not a minority (rumor). At the last two jobs I was working at, I was told to find African American candidates for positions I was trying to fill. (fact) I would very much like to hear tales of racism (specific examples) from minorities on this list. I often hear statements about racism, but when I ask for specifics people get defensive (and offensive) with me. I am told that since I am white, I just wouldn't understand. How should I understand if I don't have examples? How much of it is perceived? How much of it is from the past and no longer relevant today? Educate me. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2030 Registered: 10-2004 |
Most white males under age 63 have encountered (reverse) racism in the public-sector workplace and universities ALL their adult lives (definite fact). | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1267 Registered: 12-2005 |
Noblesse oblige | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 128 Registered: 05-2006 |
Noblesse oblige is generally used to imply that with wealth, power and prestige come social responsibilities. Not quite sure how that applies. Are you saying every white male is wealthy, powerful and prestigious? | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1268 Registered: 12-2005 |
If the shoe fits, wear it. | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2006 |
I am going to hijack this topic for a sec to write some things. As far as racism goes I have no exact personal expierences because I am white, but I had a long term boyfriend who was black. And I can tell you walking in the mall or at the park I would get called a n***** lover, and he would have things shouted at him because he was dating me. It wasn't just that we were an interracial couple we also got crap for being a gay couple. I heard what people said, and how we were treated. So I have to say that I have witnessed racism first hand. I have heard it and watched it at my school in Detroit. It is here and you just need to open your eyes to what other people are dealing with. I think sometimes everyone gets trapped into what people say about you or how people treat you. In video if you want to see some great movies that highlight issues I have to recommend "Crash" and "Something New" the second really points out some great issues and is a wonderful and funny look at race. As for AA I think it is still needed in this day and age. I don't feel it was handled in the best way before Prop 2, but I also feel that Prop 2 goes too far. I think modified regulations and systems for AA would have been a much better option. | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 150 Registered: 11-2006 |
If you can't get into a specific college for whatever reason, that is your lot in life. Deal with it in a positive manner, quit whining and get on with your Plan B. (you do have a Plan B, don't you?) Life is full of disappointment, so you just have to make the best of it or you will sink. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 130 Registered: 05-2006 |
Shoe don't fit - unfortunately. Anybody know where I go to pick up my wealth, power, and prestige? Actually there are more poor white people than there are of any other race (the percentage is lower, but the absolute numbers are higher). The race with the highest income? Asian-american. So much for being elite. I was looking for people with REAL experience of racism - not from movies. Racism that caused them to not get a job or to have to move to another neighborhood or not be able to go to school -not that someone called them a bad name. I have been called honky and white toast and told that I didn't belong in a certain neighborhood or pushed off a sidewalk but I consider that rather irrelevant. Actually, I am trying to open my eyes. I am inviting people to share their experiences of racism with me so that I can learn what it is like. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 434 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Actually there are more poor white people than there are of any other race (the percentage is lower, but the absolute numbers are higher)." You've just identified what separates pro-AA people from anti-AA people... pro-AA people tend to look at society in terms of percentages.. i.e., the don't care about the poor, underprivileged non-minority child who grows up without any advantages and falls through the cracks of the AA system, since there are plenty of non-minorities who are privileged to offset the numbers and make up for this...to them, this is justification for denying a person opportunities because of their skin color... What we have now in Michigan, however, fixes this issue...minorities who actually need AA help will still get it due to their socio-economic status...but so will the non-minority who grew up along side them in a similar single-parent home, attended the same poor quality school and whose family is without sufficient financial means to send them to college on their own... I have yet to hear one person on this forum even ATTEMPT to make an argument against SES-based AA, because they know such a system is a fair as we can get, and since trying to argue against it would immediately show that they aren't really after fairness, but rather just the 'type' of fairness that benefits them.... | ||
Kathinozarks Member Username: Kathinozarks Post Number: 152 Registered: 11-2006 |
Thejesus, your post makes perfect sense and is easily read and understood. Where I live only 10% of families make over 50k a year, so the kids here are mostly without family connections or the money to attend college. Oh, and with an approx. 97% white population, we would certainly benefit from the SES-based AA. We certainly should stop looking at color. Poor, non-connected kids of all races should have a chance at a good college based on their hard work and good grades, period. Thank you for being so clear. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1582 Registered: 06-2004 |
All I know is that Michigan has been, and continues to be, the least female friendly state in the country. | ||
Pollybergen Member Username: Pollybergen Post Number: 23 Registered: 12-2006 |
thejesus, please see my previous post. The reason non SES based AA is needed is because a perceived discrimination equals less success, therefore not their best grades, therefore not an equal shot at being admitted into a university. When the discriminated is championed, their ability to succeed is exponentially greater. Also see any book by Jonathan Kozol. | ||
3rdworldcity Member Username: 3rdworldcity Post Number: 391 Registered: 01-2005 |
There are many approaches to AA that do not result in racial/gender/ethnic discrimination. All Prop 2 did was eliminate such discrimination. SES is fine as long as no qualified person is discriminated against as a result of such a program. | ||
Tkelly1986 Member Username: Tkelly1986 Post Number: 203 Registered: 01-2004 |
It’s sad that people like Bratt think that the best way to wrong a right is to create another wrong.......counterproductive don’t you think? Also, the whole them verse us mentality and the “who cares, they deserve it” type attitude is what keeps racial harmony at an agitated state; crawl out of your hole and experience the world and stop using the “man” as an excuse…or is this just bigotry against white people at the root.........also, thejesus, I agree, very well put. As a person who grew with a father on disability (legally blind), in government assisted housing, food stamps, government cheese, hand me downs ect……..I can see where these cracks exist. (Message edited by tkelly1986 on December 31, 2006) | ||
Zug Member Username: Zug Post Number: 156 Registered: 01-2004 |
So many of the same points are made in each and every AA thread. It really does get boring. I have given many reasons why AA was needed in previous posts, the most recent was only like a month ago...so I will refrain from typing the same stuff again. So many people ask for reasons why affirmative action is needed...just do a search on the internet and you'll come across tons of editorials or commentaries on why affirmative action is needed. But the points are moot now in Michigan. I'm for affirmative action, but I'm willing to wait to see how post-AA Michigan will turn out, and it wouldn't surprise me if AA wasn't really doing much to correct inequalities, anyways. What I would like to hear is more about this SES affirmative action so many of you are talking about. First...define socioeconomic status...it seems to include way more than just income to me, so how do you quantify it? Second, affirmative action was used in more than just university admissions...how would SES affirmative action be used in terms of government jobs and contracting? Third, what criteria must be met in order for SES based affirmative action to be deemed successful (i.e. when would it be eliminated)? | ||
Zug Member Username: Zug Post Number: 157 Registered: 01-2004 |
...by the way, Mrjoshua...University of Chicago is a private institution and is therefore not subject to affirmative action. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 259 Registered: 04-2006 |
It really is kind of amusing watching white males debate the merits of Affirmative Action. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 190 Registered: 08-2006 |
Iheartthed, how can you tell whos white, whos black, whos female and whos male in here? When I filled out the registration for this forum, no one asked me such questions? Is there some area that peoples age, race, sex and so forth are noted for this forum? Thanks, Jane | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 260 Registered: 04-2006 |
My crystal ball. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 261 Registered: 04-2006 |
Or maybe just the tone of entitlement oozing from this discussion. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 438 Registered: 06-2006 |
"It really is kind of amusing watching white males debate the merits of Affirmative Action." who better to debate an issue than the people affected by it? besides, this is more of a societal issue than anything...I've noticed that pro-AA have difficulty realizing this, however regardless, I'm curious if you can say with a straight face that you think minorites are unbiased when discussing the merits of AA? (Message edited by thejesus on January 02, 2007) | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2933 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Gerald Ford’s Affirmative Action"
| ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 439 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Or maybe just the tone of entitlement oozing from this discussion." I believe underprivileged non-minorites are ENTITLED to a fair shot in life and shouldn't be forced into the cracks of your broken system because of their race... now what other entitlements do you THINK you see in this thread? (Message edited by thejesus on January 02, 2007) | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 440 Registered: 06-2006 |
ah, so Gerald Ford was in the minority on the issue of Affirmative Action...whoopdy-friggin-doo :P | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 868 Registered: 12-2005 |
this is what life is like every day for us white males. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =rjNym0nmqOc | ||
Mikem Member Username: Mikem Post Number: 2934 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm sorry, Jesus, that previous attempts to enrich the learning environment at Michigan Law prevented your acceptance there and as a result you had to get a gun for your evening drives to Wayne State. Maybe you can transfer next fall? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 441 Registered: 06-2006 |
Actually, Mike, I only applied to WSU LS since I have a pretty good job here in the Detroit area that I didn't want to leave...so my choices were limited to WSU and UofD, so I went with the better of the two options... However, I will say that I was less than trilled when I learned that WSU requires people of my skin color to be able to achieve a much higher score on the LSAT than many of my classmates are required to achieve before they would accept me into their PUBLIC law school and consider me for scholarship money... anyways, the people of Michigan identified the problem and corrected it so future applicants won't have to deal with that kind of BS anymore (Message edited by thejesus on January 02, 2007) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 263 Registered: 04-2006 |
"now what other entitlements do you THINK you see in this thread?" It's funny that YOUR entitlement syndrome speaks the loudest of anyone else on this thread... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 442 Registered: 06-2006 |
"It's funny that YOUR entitlement syndrome speaks the loudest of anyone else on this thread..." so you say, and yet you're unable to elaborate or give any examples...nothing...not even a bad argument from you, just silence, which speaks volumes... I am entitled...to a fair shot at success, as are you, whether you like it or not. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 264 Registered: 04-2006 |
Unable to and not willing to engage in this silly "debate" are two different things. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2046 Registered: 10-2004 |
Some classes should be grateful that they were able to screw over others for no other "reason" than sex or race for more than forty years. But apparently, not. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3499 Registered: 10-2003 |
Just like some should be happy that they were able to legally get away with it for OVER FOUR HUNDRED YEARS, through mass murder, political lynching, and enslavement of entire races along with systematic and institutional racism (all of the above were government sanctioned as well), which was the primary reason for the existence of Affirmative Action in the first place! Damn so of you sound so fuckin hippocritical... But who am I to talk. White men have had it sooooooooooooooo bad for 40 whole years. I really feel stingy now. Damn... So I shed a tear for my oppressed white men... *sarcasm alert* (Message edited by Detroit_stylin on January 02, 2007) (Message edited by Detroit_stylin on January 02, 2007) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 265 Registered: 04-2006 |
"(all of the above were government sanctioned as well)" Not to mention that if THAT had been left up to the popular vote then things would still be the same. | ||
Rosedaleken Member Username: Rosedaleken Post Number: 272 Registered: 06-2005 |
This is definitely a debate worth having. Affirmative action is a broken, antiquated solution to a problem of racism that continues today. Still, most people won't leave a wound open just because the bandage is frayed. We can't jump up and equalize education across the board tomorrow. Mothers won't suddenly begin reading to their children, turning off the television, and demanding a summer book report or two just because Proposal Two passed. What happens in the interim? I might as well throw in an example of racism while I'm at it. I went to visit a condo for sale a day before a white friend of mine, and received a price that was approximately $11,000 dollars higher than she did. The markets must be extremely volatile. I'd rather not count the occasions when security "seemed" like they were observing me in department stores a little more closely, or other events less easily quantified. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4980 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm so g%ddamned tired about hearing about "the people." "The people" didn't much care if slavery was to go on or not. It took the act of a radical president in the middle of a war to decide that it was even worthwhile, and even then most believe that once they freed the slaves they'd be happy to just go back to their homelands. "The people" didn't much care if Jim Crow was allowed to continue the worst case of perpetual, domestic terrorism this country's ever seen. It literally took a military war (in the case to end slavery), and a social war (in the case to end Jim Crow and other vestiges and legacies of slavery and segregation) to force "the people" to stop working against its own constitution! "The people" have been wrong before, and will be wrong again. The idea that the majority is allowed to decide the fate of minorities is not just laughable, but offensive. This vote was the perfect way to rip open the healing wounds inflicted upon this country for so long. What a wonderful state and country we live in. Democracy is such a beautiful thing. Not even an 11th-hour endorsement by the KKK could make this state bat a lash. In fact, it probably helped the MCRI by rallying its base. Most of Michigan's white Southerner's are still fighting the Civil War, and still hoping for a return to "the good, ole' days where everyone was equal (and you better not dare say otherwise, so shut the hell up)". lol The revolving door's going to swing back around when hispanics (or minorities) become a plurality. What goes around really does come around, and these votes are at the current majorities own peril. It's really too bad, but if you're willing and content to sow the seeds of division and discontent, you better be content to pay the prices and reap the appropriate 'benefits' of this, as well when that time comes. It never ceases to amaze me how ironic this so-believed egalitarian, heaven-on-earth, utopia can be, and far too often. (Message edited by lmichigan on January 02, 2007) | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3502 Registered: 10-2003 |
Say that ish....say that ish LMich... ANd then they will REALLY be screaming racism... SMDH @ the short sightedness. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 131 Registered: 05-2006 |
According to article 33 of the Geneva Convention collective punishment is illegal. Why should all people of one race be disadvantaged because of what some people did one hundred years ago? Why should all white people be lumped in with the elite white class? The individual could care less if members of his race are running the country and the economy. He or she has about zero chance of ever joining that elite class. The discussion should be about class, not race. The middle and lower classes are getting screwed and income disparities are increasing dramatically. Meanwhile we are still fighting the last war. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 266 Registered: 04-2006 |
Do you even know the purpose of the Geneva Convention? | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3505 Registered: 10-2003 |
I dont think he does Iheart... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 443 Registered: 06-2006 |
"The discussion should be about class, not race." Exactly... ...and the good news is, those of us who feel it should be about class are winning... ...meanwhile, people like lhearted and Detroit_stylin who want to keep the discussion about race are losing, they know it, and they can't stand it... : ) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 267 Registered: 04-2006 |
Not really. I could write a book about why it is and still should be about race. In fact, many well written books already exist about it. Thank God some of us will never see the world through those rose-colored glasses that you're wearing. For the record, I never expected bass-ackwards Michigan to vote down Proposal 2. Just like I don't expect bass-ackwards mainstream America to support Affirmative Action. It should have never been put up to the popular vote. And trust me, when it starts to "become about class" that's gonna get struck down too. Matter of fact it's already in the making. You should have seen the responses when Wayne State announced it would give preferences to Detroit residents. | ||
English Member Username: English Post Number: 520 Registered: 10-2003 |
So poor people should be allowed into Michigan with lower test scores? So poor people should be given consideration for job if they have lesser credentials? It's either all or nothing. This argument for SES-based affirmative action is completely disingenuous. Now that Prop. 2 has passed eliminate ALL privilege... including legacy status. And let's have county-wide K-12 education systems, as many states do. (Bet you the good citizens of the Pointes and Livonia will love that!) This state is, was, and will always be a backwater. I'm ashamed to hail from this crazy place... and before you tell me to leave, rest assured that I am, as fast as I can, AFTER I finish the Ph.D that YOUR tax dollars are paying for. It's the least you can do after 30 years of getting on my nerves and making silly assumptions just because of my race and gender. White people being passed over because of their race? It's a privilege to be black and female? There isn't a white man in this thread who'd trade places with me. You wouldn't want to be black for a million dollars. Most of you wouldn't even want to trade places with Oprah or Bill Cosby -- and they're rich and famous. There's nothing in the world that would make you want to be black, so stop trying to pretend as if we're so privileged and favored. You are ignorant because you choose to remain ignorant. Thank God that the future does not belong to you. Just as individuals experience karma, so do nations. So do races. The prayers of hundreds of millions of people for vengeance are going to be answered. I will not live to see it, and neither will you. But just know that what goes around definitely comes around. By 2150, white people will be a numerical minority in the Western world... and you know what they say about payback. For my grandchildren's sake, I am glad. (Message edited by English on January 03, 2007) | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3507 Registered: 10-2003 |
Say that English....say that... But of course they have been victimized and mistreated for the last 40 years... Oh the HORROR! | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 444 Registered: 06-2006 |
lhearted, maybe you could write a book about it, but the point is that people are no longer taking those arguments seriously...they now see the flaws in them, which is why your side is losing... And even people like Jennifer Gratz support class-based AA...you're just making sh*t up and trying to ring the doomsday bell, just as you were before Prop 2 passed...it didn't work then and I doubt it will work now... As far as giving preferences to Detroit residents, that practice is wrong for reasons that have NOTHING to do with class...Wayne State is a public, state-funded university. The fact that their main campus happens to be located in Detroit is NOT justification for giving preferences to residents of Detroit over residents of Detroit suburbs and other places in Michigan... All residents of Michigan get resident, in-state tuition to go to WSU because it is a state school...there's no good reason why residents of a particular city in Michigan should get preferential treatment in admissions.. Also, how ridiculous would it be for the University of Michigan to give preferences to residents of Ann Arbor over residents of every other city and town in Michigan? How opposed would you be to that idea? Your bias is astounding and the flaws in your arguments numerous...and I'm starting to get the feeling that you know it too | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 270 Registered: 04-2006 |
"As far as giving preferences to Detroit residents, that practice is wrong for reasons that have NOTHING to do with class...Wayne State is a public, state-funded university. The fact that their main campus happens to be located in Detroit is NOT justification for giving preferences to residents of Detroit over residents of Detroit suburbs and other places in Michigan... " I was only joking about the crystal ball upthread, but I'll be damned if I wasn't on point in my prediction... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 271 Registered: 04-2006 |
And please don't try to infer what you think I realize. All you need to know is that I realized that I'm smarter than you. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 445 Registered: 06-2006 |
English: SES is more than about just being poor. But yes, people from underprivileged backgrounds should be given preferential treatment when applying to public, state-funded universities... And I hear a lot of whining around here about legacy admissions, but I have yet to see anyone step up to the plate and try to get them removed. I'd be infavor of removing legacy admissions, andI think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who would fight vigorously to keep them in place... But I'll say that I and many others feel less passionate about removing legacy admisisons than we do about race-based admissions because they are a MUCH smaller factor than race-based admissions though since they apply to a much smaller pool of individuals and because they are weighted MUCH lower...but hey, if you decide to get a petition together to put it on the ballot, let me know and I'll definitely sign it (Message edited by thejesus on January 03, 2007) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 272 Registered: 04-2006 |
GTF outta here. There are WAY more legacies at U-M than there are minorities. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3509 Registered: 10-2003 |
Well Dang wouldnt preferences to Detroit residents be class based? I mean most of the people in the cfity arent in the the middle or higher classes... So how is it wrong? I think once again the(wrongfullynamed)jesus is showing his true racist colors... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 446 Registered: 06-2006 |
"GTF outta here. There are WAY more legacies at U-M than there are minorities." there may or may not be...I don't know...but that's irrelevant my point is that race-based AA programs apply to EVERY member of a racial minority in the country, and they get preferential treatment when applying to almost every college in the county... legacy admissions only apply the particular school a person's parent went to... regardless, there's no good reason to keep legacy admissions around | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 447 Registered: 06-2006 |
I see...I'm 'the racist' now, huh? you are so pathetic that you have to resort to that...but whatever...you're just showing everyone that you can't make a valid argument to support your side... Many residents of Detroit should and will be given preferential treatment under SES-based AA...but it will be because of their socio-economic standing, not because they are residents of Detroit...if you can't understand the obvious difference here, then I don't know if I would be able to explain it to you | ||
Zug Member Username: Zug Post Number: 158 Registered: 01-2004 |
Re-post: What I would like to hear is more about this SES affirmative action so many of you are talking about. First...define socioeconomic status...it seems to include way more than just income to me, so how do you quantify it? Second, affirmative action was used in more than just university admissions...how would SES affirmative action be used in terms of government jobs and contracting? Third, what criteria must be met in order for SES based affirmative action to be deemed successful (i.e. when would it be eliminated)? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 449 Registered: 06-2006 |
“What I would like to hear is more about this SES affirmative action so many of you are talking about. First...define socioeconomic status...it seems to include way more than just income to me, so how do you quantify it? “ http://wik.ed.uiuc.edu/index.p hp/Socioeconomic_status “Second, affirmative action was used in more than just university admissions...how would SES affirmative action be used in terms of government jobs and contracting? “ I don’t know that it would…seems like people applying for the same job would probably have a pretty similar socio-economic status, wouldn't ya think? if you’re interested though, do some research and try to find out what they did in CA after they passed the same law 10 years ago, since their law also contained language barring raced-based AA from public employment and public contracting… “Third, what criteria must be met in order for SES based affirmative action to be deemed successful (i.e. when would it be eliminated)?” SES-based AA could be eliminated when we become a utopia…until then, SES-based AA would be needed in order to balance the greater opportunities available to those born into a higher class with the lesser opportunities available to those born into a lower class. (Message edited by thejesus on January 03, 2007) | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 132 Registered: 05-2006 |
Yes, I do know what the Geneva Conventions are for, thank you very much. My point was that it we do not allow collective punishment during warfare, why should we allow it domestically during peacetime? Jeez, I have to explain everything.... | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4986 Registered: 10-2003 |
Talk about hyperbole and exaggeration for its own sake. If you're going to try and connect (and as best you can, which is very, very loosely and generally) the effects and/or purpose of AA to the effects and/or purpose of the Geneva Convention, perhaps, you'd be better just talking to yourself, because I doubt anyone's going to indulge you with such ridiculous, hyperbolic talk. At least, I'm not going to deal in that crap and off-topic discussion. (Message edited by lmichigan on January 03, 2007) | ||
Zug Member Username: Zug Post Number: 159 Registered: 01-2004 |
Point still overlooked...AA is meant to assist qualified women & minorities, not just anyone with darker skin and/or a vagina. Some of you act like a black person will get accepted to Michigan with a 1.5 and a 10 on the ACT. Many people are qualified enough to go to universities or have certain jobs, but are not accepted all the time. Being "qualified" is not as cut & dry as "my LSAT was higher." If the same person takes the LSAT for a second time and get a lower score, did that person get dumber? I personally don't think so. Then how can you ignore the fact that extraneous circumstances can affect certain people. This is why private universities that do not use affirmative action (i.e. Harvard, Columbia, University of Chicago, etc.) have always accepted incoming classes with a relatively wide range of GPAs, SATs, or whatever other test needs to be taken. No university just accepts the people with the highest GPAs and test scores. People are more than just numbers...yes numbers should be considered, even heavily considered...but we shouldn't ignore other obstacles that people have to overcome. In America, everyone would be lying if they said inherent racism & sexism doesn't exist. So I don't see a problem with considering these. Plus, this whole thing about whites being discriminated against is funny...as well as the plethora of whites who claim to have been victims of affirmative action. According to a UofM study, the chances of a white student being accepted into a selective university increases only 3% without affirmative action. So, many qualified whites will still be rejected without AA. Therefore, unless you are certain that you were in that 3% that was displaced by affirmative action...then you will probably have the same experiences as with AA. Before someone asks, by "qualified" I mean someone who has high scholastic achievements and other extracurricular qualifications, and who has a chance to realistically succeed if accepted by a specific university or at a specific job. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3829 Registered: 10-2003 |
http://www.umich.edu/~mrev/arc hives/1999/summer/chart.htm | ||
Zug Member Username: Zug Post Number: 160 Registered: 01-2004 |
point taken...people used to be numbers for UofM...but that system was found to be unconstitutional. The new system was not points based. And affirmative action itself has not been found unconstitutional. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4992 Registered: 10-2003 |
Thanks, Patrick, for that scale. I love the 20 points for "Provost's Discretion" and the "School Factor." lol (Message edited by lmichigan on January 03, 2007) | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1238 Registered: 11-2004 |
"I would like to read exactly WHO here had been a victim of discrimination becuase of Affirmative Action, and how do you know it was becuase of that or becuase the person of color was better qualified than you" I sent in bids for flooring at Detroit Metro Airport, several High schools, and government buildings. I was then told shortly after submitting my bids that I was disqualified from the bidding process because my company was not MBE (minority business enterprise) or WBE (woman owned business enterprise). Basically my company lost the chance at several large contracts because im not black, hispanic, or have a vagina. Last time I checked, i was a broke motherfuker growning up. Everything i have I busted ass to get and started with nothing but my dick , balls, and brains. But, I do know of several VERY wealthy women, who had VERY wealthy families, got contracts from the Big 3, and government agencies simply because they were the only WBE certified company in the bidding process. Explain to me why this is not complete horseshit? | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3834 Registered: 10-2003 |
Alexei, that farking sucks. I bet your work is just as good or better than the party that was awarded the contract. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3835 Registered: 10-2003 |
-State residency: I can see the residency is pretty fair at 10 points. I feel that the non-residency should be lower though in my opinion. -Legacy: So gramps donated 7 million to the school. Ok, now if I donated a few million to your school you better let my grandkid in. BUT, what if your gramps went there and didn’t donate shit? Do they still get legacy points? -Essay: 1 point for a good essay??? Come on now. It should be more like 15 points! -Provost’s Discretion: What the hell is this? Scholarship for athlete: 20 points? Why? They are getting free school (most of them). Screw off. Personal Achievement: Again, what is this? -Men in nursing: 5 points? Do guys at other nursing schools get points? Screw off. Besides, they’re in it for the chicks. -ACT/SAT: These points need to be doubled easily. These tests are crucial as far as I am concerned. -Perhaps the GPA points need to be taken off because a 4.0 in one district/school isn’t the same as a 4.0 in another school. -Leadership and service: Combine this with personal achievement. -Underrepresented minority: 20 points? I don’t know, that sounds like a lot. Put it at 10 -Socioeconomic status: Again, put this at 10. -Extracurricular activities in HS such as band or sports need to receive points as well. -What about physical handicaps such as poor hearing, vision, etc.? 10 points -If the candidate had brushes with the law or school officials, points should be subtracted. (Message edited by patrick on January 03, 2007) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 4994 Registered: 10-2003 |
Man, I'd been trying to find this clip ever since I heard it existed in early November: http://youtube.com/watch?v=kAf Yu_htDpU Priceless. That's going to come in handy down the road. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 450 Registered: 06-2006 |
"...AA is meant to assist qualified women & minorities, not just anyone with darker skin and/or a vagina." Whatever. try to justify it however you want. When a certain combination of test scores and other criteria are an automatic qualifier for a minority, and that same combination is an automatic disqualifier for a non-minority, then something is very wrong... "...the chances of a white student being accepted into a selective university increases only 3% without affirmative action. So, many qualified whites will still be rejected without AA." Yes, we're all aware of this. Our motivation for getting rid of AA was not so that every qualified white person would be admitted. You need to stop looking at things in terms of blacks against whites. Our motivation for getting rid of it was so that EVERYONE gets a fair shot at admissions and that their skin color is not an automatic qualifier or disqualifier for them. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 451 Registered: 06-2006 |
btw, it's been a while since this has been thrown out there... I'd like to know whether or not the pro-AA people here would also support AA programs and racial quotas in professional sports...and why or why not... This question always brings on the crickets... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 273 Registered: 04-2006 |
"This question always brings on the crickets..." Because it's stupid! | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 452 Registered: 06-2006 |
no, it's because answering it would reveal how completely full of crap your side of this debate is, and you know it... | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3513 Registered: 10-2003 |
I dont know Jesus maybe because the disparity in professional sports between those who PLAY the sports and those who actually OWN them are level playing fields? Your weak ass analogy is so weak its tragically comical. Name five minority owners of an NFL, MLB, NHL, NBA, or other professional franchise. I mean its not like we dont want to own them but I think that the powers that be would much rather see us RUN PLAYS than RUN an organization. SO until we get more people of color in the front offices and more minority owners then you can have that "why aren;t there quotas in the NBA?" garbage argument. Victim mentality at its finest without a clue on what its like to be a victim... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 275 Registered: 04-2006 |
Professional Sports: the Modern Day Minstrel Show | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 133 Registered: 05-2006 |
LMichigan - it is the principle of collective punishment that I was arguing. Apparently you are not capable of abstract thinking, so you attack the source instead of the argument. Tell me why collective punishment is ok. Individuals are being punished for what occurred in the past even if their ancestors were living in Europe during the time of slavery. Individuals are being punished for being the members of a race who are in the elite even if they aren't elite themselves and receive no personal benefit. Tell me why a poor kid living in Appalachia is somehow magically better off than the same kid under the same circumstances living in Detroit? | ||
Mrjoshua Member Username: Mrjoshua Post Number: 1130 Registered: 03-2005 |
"Victim mentality at its finest without a clue on what its like to be a victim..." So Stylin, you ARE a victim after all. This explains your entire worldview. Word. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 3837 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think a lot of people are still under the impression that affirmative action is ONLY for blacks or women. That’s simply not the case. Hell, GW benefited from AA because of the legacy preference at Yale. Not that Yale had any kind of point system, but I am sure it gives preference to applicants from donor families. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 453 Registered: 06-2006 |
Detroit_style: All you did was avoid answering the question...ownership of the teams has nothing to do with your view on this, and you know it...if the teams were state-owned or public owned (like the GB Packers), you know damn well you still would not support racial quotas in professional sports, and neither would I for that matter... "...until we get more people of color in the front offices and more minority owners then you can have that "why aren;t there quotas in the NBA?" garbage argument." Your botched grammar aside, you totally missed my point. I don't want racial quotas in professional sports. I want the best people for the job to get the job, whether we're talking about professional sports or everyday employment... you, on the other hand, cry about fairness and racial quotas only in cases where your side is disadvantaged...however, in cases where your side has the advantage, fairness is suddenly not a priority... So basically my side of the argument is fair and consistent while your side is biased and completely full of shit...and after this exchange you either realize how full of shit you are, or you're a complete moron...I'm not sure which at this point... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 276 Registered: 04-2006 |
"you, on the other hand, cry about fairness and racial quotas only in cases where your side is disadvantaged...however, in cases where your side has the advantage, fairness is suddenly not a priority... " Okay. Now you've just moved from the ignorant category to the blatant racist category. | ||
Janesback Member Username: Janesback Post Number: 191 Registered: 08-2006 |
"...until we get more people of color in the front offices and more minority owners then you can have that "why aren;t there quotas in the NBA?" garbage argument." -------------------------- So every black millionaire should make it a priority to own a sports team with their millions? You may want to see the numbers of black millionaires and what they do with their money....Oprah just started a school in Africa, Bill Cosby recently donated millions to a "historically black college" in Georgia. Not all blacks are interested in owning sports teams. As well, numerous Sports teams owners werent brought up with a silver spoon in their mouth. Red McCombs who owns the Vikings started out a poor country boy who then started selling cars in Corpus Chrisiti. Tom Benson who owns the Saints was a used car sales man in San Antonio, he was poor as well as Bud Adams who used to own the Oilers and now owns the Titians......... not all blacks go out and blow millions on teams. Maybe they choose to dontate or invest it in their communities or donations.........Thanks, Jane | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 454 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Okay. Now you've just moved from the ignorant category to the blatant racist category." I see..please explain... now am I 'the racist' simply because I'm in the majority on the AA issue, or do you have another reason you want to throw out there? Or am I going to hear crickets again? (Message edited by thejesus on January 04, 2007) | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2062 Registered: 10-2004 |
Why waste time and effort further discussing Prop 2? It's time to play by the new rules. UoM was previously bitching that they were in a time bind as to AA compliance before but now are on record this week saying that their admissions is only being halted for a very brief time. Now that the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit has overruled the Federal Judge shopped by the BAMN crowd and the Group of Three, Prop 2 has even more applicability than before. If the states of Tennessee, Kentucky, or Ohio were to enact similar legislation as Prop 2, the recent ruling from the Sixth Appellate would apply to them also. In other words, a further retrograde, coffin-nail step for AA, as far as these four states are concerned. (Message edited by LivernoisYard on January 04, 2007) | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 277 Registered: 04-2006 |
If you don't know I'm not going to waste my time telling you. :crickets: | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 278 Registered: 04-2006 |
Livernoisyard, it all depends on the wording of the ruling. I highly doubt that this judge would make such a broad ruling as it would make it much easier to be appealed and overturned. |
