  Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 74 Registered: 08-2006 |
It's been 100 years since the completion of Building 10 at the ol' Packard Plant. I visited the complex early this month to get some photos (link below) and saw some (relatively lazy) CoD workers and guards there, letting some CoD cars and nondescript pick-ups in and out of the grounds. The guards were clearly stretched thin and could only patrol along E. Grand Blvd. I saw two scrappers inside, tearing copper pipes off the ceiling with their bare hands. I know there are a few occupants that have stayed since the building was partitioned. What is the CoD doing there? With this new year, what is the status of the Packard's demolition and the lawsuits that cropped up when demolition started? "Packard Plant: 100 Years Later" | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 887 Registered: 12-2005 |
The CoD is clearly letting scrappers, graffiti "artists" and vandals do as they please so that the building "will have to come down now, it's unsafe". There's a big story here, I wonder if we'll ever see it in print, naming names. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3542 Registered: 10-2003 |
I was at Packard on Friday. There is only one occupant left, the owner of which I met, whose company has been there since the 50's when Packard was still there. According to him the property is still locked up in unsettled litigation over its title with no end in sight.  | ||
Tkshreve Member Username: Tkshreve Post Number: 67 Registered: 07-2006 |
Is the company that is still there called "Bluebird"? When I used to go to the paintball grounds located there, we could see dozens of "bluebird" trucks on, like, the third floor as we ascended to the top. There would always be someone welding something back in there. Rumor had it that it was a chop shop. Any validity to that? anyone? What happened with Splattball City? Another textbook small business closing or did someone sit on a rusty nail? | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 890 Registered: 12-2005 |
All of those businesses (legit and il) were evicted by the CoD (in bed with a speculator, whose son stood to get the fat state brownfield demolition/remediation contract for his demolition firm), who was attempting a 19th century-style land grab, aided by someone high in Lansing. The owner, who was trying to pay back taxes now had to do so without any tenants. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 184 Registered: 07-2006 |
Thanks for posting the pictures Gsgeorge, and Lowell. I never made it to the Packard Plant in my visit to Detroit, so I am planning on going there next time. | ||
Rrl Member Username: Rrl Post Number: 709 Registered: 12-2003 |
56PM- How does the city, other than thru property condemnation, evict a private owner's tenants? I've never heard of such a thing. | ||
Pmardo Member Username: Pmardo Post Number: 43 Registered: 03-2006 |
Jeff - Great photos. You'll have to take me with you next time. Paul | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 891 Registered: 12-2005 |
Well, you start by an improper condemnation, which doesn't stand up in court (ergo the ongoing legal battle). Then you block the owner from operating his business, and send letters on CoD stationary evicting all tenants. While all of this is going on, you remove all security measures the owner had in place and let petty thieves take over, units are broken into and robbed/trashed faster than you can repair the locks/doors. Then you allow demolition to begin without a sign-off by the financial institution holding the note for the property (a big no-no). Meanwhile, after the owner raises the back taxes and pays the bill with a good check you get your buddy in Lansing (who is holding the title) to turn the deed to the ranch over to the CoD, instead of the (now paid-up) owner. That's how you do that. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 188 Registered: 07-2006 |
56packman, that is absolutely ridiculous. If I were a tenant there, I would have been infuriated. How did the one tenant survive? I guess he/she refused to leave? Someone also mentioned city guards...I guess they still claim they own the property and are thus "guarding" it by letting copper thieves go free? Also, who is the current owner of the factory (not the city, but the real owner, the person fighting for title now)? | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 892 Registered: 12-2005 |
Dominic Christini | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 283 Registered: 04-2006 |
Here are some VERY SMALL versions of some photos i've taken:  complex through a hole in the wall  "10"  my friend john   welcome to the packard  art? vandalism? - here i say art  through a window  there is some cool stuff here  a picture of me taken by vandykeandjefferson  this is what scares me about packard motors | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 284 Registered: 04-2006 |
p.s. gsgeorge - nice topic and photo set - next time you're in town give me a call! | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 191 Registered: 07-2006 |
Perhaps my eyesight is awful or something, but what is that in the picture of what scares you? Is it a rusted bullet casing? | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 285 Registered: 04-2006 |
it's a shot gun shell.. found on the second floor or so... i also heard screams/loud noises and paced movement while in there... though they were on a different floor... | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 192 Registered: 07-2006 |
Looking at it now, I can how it looks like a shotgun shell, though I am generally not too knowledgeable about gun-related things. Screams/loud noises would probably make me a bit afraid. I would never go someplace like that alone, though I do not think many others would, either. The fear I would have would be of running into some nut with a gun or knife or something. | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 152 Registered: 07-2006 |
Looking at pictures of the packard plant I can't help but think of Franklin Square in Syracuse, NY. it too was once a collection of abandoned factories - the name even comes from an auto manufacturer that built cars in the area. Now it's filled with apartments and office space, and new buildings in a similar style to the older ones have even been built. My brother, who lives in the area, had his wedding pictures taken in a beautiful park surrounded by these buildings, and i immediately fell in love with the area. I'm not going to be so naive as to say 'why hasn't this happened here?' but I hope at least some of our own historic buildings can be saved similarly in the future. I doubt they are of much use for modern industrial use, yet this seems to be a great way to keep that history while creating a unique area and attracting new residents and businesses. Obviously it takes a great deal of investment and not a small amount of risk, but it's something a lot of other cities can't offer. some pictures (not mine) for an idea of what it looks like: http://www.pbase.com/cicerocla y/syracuse | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 876 Registered: 03-2006 |
Franklin Square reminds me of River Place (http://www.200riverplace.com). Too bad the Packard Plant is far from downtown or the riverfront. Maybe in 20 years if it's still standing. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 286 Registered: 04-2006 |
if the location is the key, what about doing something with fisher body 21? it doesn't have the "complex" feel to it, but is pretty cool in itself. + far less dangerous. | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 393 Registered: 03-2006 |
I love those tree lined streets....I think that's probably more similar to current TechTown/New Center Council plans/developements along with current residential development in the New Amsterdam Historic District (techtown)....I've seen some of the streetscape plans and it will really make the whole area similar to Franklin square | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 877 Registered: 03-2006 |
I agree Andylinn, Fisher Body 21 would be interesting as residential too (what a cool name!) but it's still far from downtown and the river. And of course, location is everything. Plus Fisher Body 21 is so huge, it seems it would have to be developed over many years (Overland Lofts seems to be going pretty well though. http://www.modeldmedia.com/nei ghborhoods/placestomove/willyl ofts.aspx) Some cool pics of Fisher Body 21 http://www.forgottendetroit.co m/fisher/photos.html | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 153 Registered: 07-2006 |
eastsidedog: you're right, it is very much like river place. i thought the same about it being far from downtown - but with as much as i've heard about there being too much focus on downtown, maybe this could help start some development heading out to the rest of the city. but i will agree it does hurt the idea - franklin square is pretty close to downtown syracuse. | ||
J_stone Member Username: J_stone Post Number: 351 Registered: 10-2003 |
Last year, 2 of my co-workers got their photo equipment and car jacked at gunpoint (sawed-off shotgun)by 2 individuals. They made them walk behind one the buildings until they left. Fortunately, the scum bags couldn't drive a stick, so they only lost their keys along with the photo stuff, but kept their car and lives. The police apparently told them that photo kids/people get jacked their all the time. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1250 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yes, they get jacked there all the time. DPD lesson: don't go there. Why should DPD have to actually do patrol, or heaven forbid ever arrest criminals (though I suppose those walking inside packard are also criminals). I took photos outside in summer 2003. Didn't see a single person the entire time. Is crime/robbery/other a big problem in and around the complex? I was probably dumb for going by myself. If I ever dared venture inside, a big group would be preferred, and a taser or handgun a nice companion. | ||
Motownmark04 Member Username: Motownmark04 Post Number: 11 Registered: 02-2006 |
A friend of mine and I wandered through the factory last March. The only thing that chased me away from the bowels of the factory was the pack of stray dogs who chased me out of the building, then stopped as soon as I ran out one of the doors. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 76 Registered: 08-2006 |
Thanks everyone for the comments and info regarding the Packard's status, and the links to various industrial>residential conversions throughout the city and country. Franklin Square is particularly interesting because Packard is similarly expansive and dynamic. Converting and refurbishing the thing would be enormously expensive but it would be a dream to see this area with shopping, residential, public squares, etc. My guess is that demolition will continue for decades until only a few of the original buildings (Building 10 especially) remain. Its historical significance and location right on Grand Blvd tells me that one day, in 10-30 years, it will be restored into offices or lofts. But the fact is, much of the structure is just not economically salvageable. It's really just a big old factory, and it is awkwardly cumbersome in this modern age. And it is not necessarily structurally unsound, but many decades of weather damage, vandalism, and scrapping means restoring a structure that huge and in such bad shape as the Packard is just not realistic unless an enormous amount of private funds are involved. Motownmark, I didn't see any dogs or any signs of them (crap). Also, the scrappers were relatively nice (can you imagine?!) and actually gave me some directions on how to get around. Andylinn: It was really a spontaneous thing. I'll definitely call next time, i want to check out your digs too. | ||
Michmeister Member Username: Michmeister Post Number: 54 Registered: 10-2006 |
What a feeling of a post-apocalyptic civilization those pictures convey. I can`t even begin to imagine what it was like there, especially in the Fisher Body Plant, when things were really kickin`.They should actually invite scrappers in to take what they haven`t already taken, and just steam roll the whole place. What else are you going to do with such monsters? You can`t turn everything into a museum, for that they would have had to leave the machinery and tools or whathaveyou. There is no where near enough to give the feel of what was once going on there. The foreman says these jobs are goin` boys, and they ain`t comin` back, in my hometown.......(thank you Bruce Springsteen) | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 878 Registered: 03-2006 |
Scottr, with the exception of Kilpatrick's new neighborhood initiatives, almost all of Detroit's new development will likely slowly radiate out from downtown, midtown and the riverfront. Personally, I wouldn't think it wise to invest far from downtown. Fortunately, the Packard Plant is built like a tank and won't be demoed by neglect for a very long time. For now my visits to the Packard Plant will be to drop off my bulk trash (and bulk trash that seems to accumulate in my neighborhood) at the city-run yard that sits next to it. | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 880 Registered: 03-2006 |
If I were you I'd watch my gas tank over there.  | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 287 Registered: 04-2006 |
this is why I DON'T THINK packard motors is structurally sound...  it just aint... | ||
Detroitstar Member Username: Detroitstar Post Number: 422 Registered: 01-2006 |
I still maintain that it could be a world class facility with residential, office and retail space all incorporated into existing buildings that are centered around a new hockey rink built to blend into the historical surroundings! Nothing would spark neighborhood development more than 1.5 million square feet of development in the middle of the city. Now someone fork over the money! | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 79 Registered: 08-2006 |
Andy, I didn't catch this, looks like it's on the 'older' side where the buildings were made with wood floors. Buildings 10 and up were all made with steel-reinforced concrete. I doubt the Packard is coming down from structural damage any time soon. Detroitstar, good idea! This would be a cool place for the new hockey arena. I could just see the alleyway in the photo above filled with shops, restaurants, hockey fans, people on their balconies looking down at the activity, perhaps even some new townhouses where those decaying sheds are on the left. Damn, that's a vision we'll have to wait a lifetime to see. Until then, let's build the thing downtown behind the Fox. | ||
Detroitstar Member Username: Detroitstar Post Number: 424 Registered: 01-2006 |
I envision that plan as: Trappers Alley meets Ford Field meets Olympia Stadium meets GM Wintergarden. Makes sense to me. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 893 Registered: 12-2005 |
Andylinn--that "crunch" you point out in your photo was caused by the illegal demolition contractor, doing what he could to hasten the demise of the PP. likewise they removed all of the window casements from sections as well as plywood walls that took the place of the casement windows, all in an effort to speed up the building's demise. The wooden flooring you see is hardwood that is over concrete, many inches of concrete. There are no wood supported floors in the plant. She's all concrete and steel. | ||
Andylinn Member Username: Andylinn Post Number: 289 Registered: 04-2006 |
56packman, really? jesus... that's awful.. sound or unsound, she's STILL beautiful after 100 years of abuse... | ||
Leoqueen Member Username: Leoqueen Post Number: 1474 Registered: 07-2004 |
Where are you, Mauser? | ||
Catman_dude Member Username: Catman_dude Post Number: 89 Registered: 03-2006 |
Build a hockey arena around the Packard buildings, a la Ford Field (with the Hudson's warehouse facade?) Maybe name it the "Packard Arena?" | ||
Weekenddriver Member Username: Weekenddriver Post Number: 1 Registered: 01-2007 |
Howdy! I did a "windshield tour" of the Packard plant, at least what I could see along East Grand, back in July. My accounts and photos are at: http://www.weekenddriver.com/blogF/blogpackard.html I'm just a car writer/photographer from San Diego and had fun just cruising around Detroit and seeing all the old sites. Love the Ruins website.  | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 957 Registered: 12-2005 |
Read tomorrow's Detroit News for BIG news about the Packard Plant. | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 57 Registered: 01-2007 |
I actually spent my entire (ok half)life from the age of 2- 22 growing up just about 3 blocks from the packard plant. There is what used to be an old A&P next door on east grand blvd. The building that is catty corner to the motel on egb used to house 2 different dept stores in the 70's. The first I remember is Arlan's, then after the neighborhood started to change so did the store and they renamed it King's Way. My neighbor Cindy, who was much much older than I was the person that actually ran the store. Man, I wonder if the scrappers cleaned that out? Maybe there's at least one Mego doll or Stacey Lattisaw album untouched lurking about in the mess they made. LOL anywho, that neighborhood could be fantabulistic once again and it will but I do agree with the other poster that it may take from 10-30 yrs possibly before the scum can be cleared from there and money comes back after all we are not just talking about one complex but a vast crime ridden and underprivlaged nabe here aren't we? Just fyi, I would say a good portion of the people still in that hood are dangerous. My friend still lives on Kirby and Moran and he was born and raised there, unfortunately, he is a scrapper and he got that way through years of alcoholism. The area is pretty dangerous also. Please, do not go into that place alone, have quite a few people with you because you can lose your life at the hands of one of these morons . The area is so desperate that my friend even got robbed. I actually think they tried to assisnate him but he tells it differently. After all, he only got his neck slit from ear to ear, stabbed 12 times in the back, and cut open from chest to stomach. Yea, thats a pretty normal robbery to me I guess. Seriously people, while the east side is a wonderful place to photograph and discover, it is also extremely dangerous so be careful going there. Walter (Message edited by walterwaves on February 01, 2007) (Message edited by walterwaves on February 01, 2007) | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 63 Registered: 01-2007 |
anyone have a photo of the motel and the building catty corner? | ||
Toybreaker Member Username: Toybreaker Post Number: 45 Registered: 01-2005 |
Packard plant, winter '05: http://flickr.com/photos/toybr eaker/sets/453929/ | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1282 Registered: 11-2003 |
Walter- Thanks for that awful story. I never know what to think when somebody says something like that. Do I think a) it was random and while not a place I'd like to hang out, am I okay shooting a few pictures outside the complex in the daylight or b) was I a total idiot for ever going down there and shooting a few pictures outside the complex in the daylight by myself? I usually try not to get myself worked up about this stuff and just play it smart and safe. Ya know. Don't draw attention. Don't go inside. Don't do things alone in the dark. Always keep scanning your surroundings. But sometimes I do wonder if I'm too cavalier about my safety and if one day its gonna come back and bite me in the ass. Never had a gun or knife pulled on me. I want to keep it that way. Fascinating place to photograph though. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1283 Registered: 11-2003 |
And what could this BIG news be? Something tells me it won't be too wonderful. Certainly not any sort of rehab I could get excited about. That area is too far away from any good area to really be "next up" for revitalization. If it did, it would be an enclave surrounded by crap. | ||
Detroitej72 Member Username: Detroitej72 Post Number: 485 Registered: 05-2006 |
Read tomorrow's Detroit News for BIG news about the Packard Plant. ------------------------------ ------------------- Care to give us a hint, or will you be selling papers tomorrow? (Message edited by detroitej72 on February 01, 2007) | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 67 Registered: 01-2007 |
hey TOYBREAKER , great photos. I see remnants of a mannaquin and a bunch of old tvs. Would these happen to be in the building I was speaking of that used to be the dept store? Awesome, thanx. | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 68 Registered: 01-2007 |
Hey Jerome, Please understand, well 1st off you are not an idiot, just enthusiastic with discovering the great city of detroit with his camera. I'm not trying to desuade you from doing your thing. Not at all, just telling you to be extremely careful in that part of town day or night. Race is also not an issue to the people who are left living there. If you are not from the hood, well in some cases even if you are from the hood they will attack you because they are destitute and desperate and anything that can be sold they will try to take. If you are gonna hang there I suggest you go with an extremely large group of people like 10-15 and that will cut down the chance of being robbed or attacked. I hope the big news in the paper tomorrow will be that they plan some type of rehab or some major corp is going to open there . Once money and jobs start pouring in so will safety in the neighborhood. (Message edited by walterwaves on February 01, 2007) (Message edited by walterwaves on February 01, 2007) | ||
Andyguard73 Member Username: Andyguard73 Post Number: 187 Registered: 03-2006 |
Awesome photo's gsgeorge and toybreaker, thanks for sharing! | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 958 Registered: 12-2005 |
Here it is: http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070202/M ETRO/702020379 After all of that,the city was wrong, they lost, they killed the building's rental business, put non-functional "security" in place that allowed vandals and scrappers to run rampant. The supreme court passed a ruling that the city can't be sued for damages (Rock--how does that work?) and it's not like the city has any money to pay for their actions anyway. | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 71 Registered: 01-2007 |
Well, its probably gonna end up demolished but if this Casab dude is smart he would just gut the exisiting because you cant buy the kind of character that exists in those 4 walls. They could also build up , new on old. Ive seen a lot of developers intigrating old arch with new and in most cases it works. Could you imagine if renovated the existing into massive condo lofts keeping the facade as is of course and then adding floors above entireley of glass . The opportunities are endless. I just hope he doesnt tear it down. (Message edited by walterwaves on February 02, 2007) | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1284 Registered: 11-2003 |
That's not news. Just an announcement of 50 years of more of the same.  | ||
Andyguard73 Member Username: Andyguard73 Post Number: 188 Registered: 03-2006 |
Here's an article from today that's somewhat relevant, talking about how converting 19th and 20th century abandoned factories into something new, (lofts, galleries, etc) is becoming very popular in Moskow. http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20 070202/lf_afp/russiaarchitectu re_070202152922 | ||
Scottr Member Username: Scottr Post Number: 208 Registered: 07-2006 |
ww - that kinda sounds like the hearst building in new york, ever seen that? they kept the outside walls of the original 1928 building, gutting the inside, then built a skyscraper out of the middle of it and made the old building into the foyer. pretty cool actually, nice way to keep some character in a modern office building. although certainly this wouldn't be a skyscraper, its a somewhat similar idea. I think this is probably the best for any chance of historic preservation - the city would have leveled it. a private developer may try to save some of it. Too bad so much of it has been damaged over the past few years, it only makes it more expensive for any project. | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 245 Registered: 10-2005 |
This structure is unreal. I always thought Detroit could convert and add to a vacant auto plant to make the most spectacular convention center in the nation. How far is this plant from the CBD? Imagine the world news about the rehab of an auto factory for the new convention center in Detroit--unbelievable. And...with appropriate transit links--a nice added plus for the city. | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 661 Registered: 10-2003 |
Isn't Casab the same guy that bought a sliver of land in Plymouth and he has filed a claim against the city or county because he can't access this parcel due to construction of a underpass for the railroad track? | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 674 Registered: 11-2004 |
Yes, it is the same guy he bought land the for 60,000 a few weeks before project start and is asking for $2 million. He's also in a fight with city over ownership of the Millennium Garage http://www.metrotimes.com/edit orial/story.asp?id=5369 | ||
Focusonthed Member Username: Focusonthed Post Number: 808 Registered: 02-2006 |
Have any of you (non Detroiters) BEEN in the area of the Packard plant? Would you want to live there? Even if they fix it up into these supposed lofts, where will you go? What will you walk to? Where are your conveniences? I think we need to be honest here that the only conceivable re-use for this facility AT THIS POINT is industrial...and there's no growth industry in Michigan that requires that kind of space, or in that kind of layout. Until development makes it out that far, it's a dead issue as anything other than industrial, IMO. | ||
Walterwaves Member Username: Walterwaves Post Number: 76 Registered: 01-2007 |
Focus, U have a valid point but, when other investors see that a huge complex like this is being turned they will start to invest in the neighborhood to capture more money . Not only can the revitalazation grow from Dowtown outward but from the east inward at a much faster pace. After all, it is only a few miles to the center. |
