  French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2006 |
would it be likely that a loft company could turn MCS into lofts? I just thought of the idea. I mean if they fix up the park in front of the building ( fountains, gardens ect) then the loft residence would have something nice to look at. Also wouldn't it be cool to live in a train station!! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2167 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Why not ask the squatters living there now? | ||
Susanarosa Member Username: Susanarosa Post Number: 1304 Registered: 11-2003 |
Yeah, almost as cool as living in an old cement silo... | ||
Ltorivia485 Member Username: Ltorivia485 Post Number: 2854 Registered: 08-2004 |
LOL LOL @ Susanarosa. Classic. | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 78 Registered: 10-2006 |
come on you know what I mean | ||
Malcovemagnesia Member Username: Malcovemagnesia Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2005 |
Sounds good to me! MCS already has a pool in the basement. | ||
Michmeister Member Username: Michmeister Post Number: 58 Registered: 10-2006 |
C`Mon, people, cut frenchy some slack, to live in a structure as impressive as the MCS would be more than awesome. It is probably Detroit`s most kick-ass landmark, even if it is a monument to our city`s own planned obsolescence. First, rehab the building, then move that fountain from Palmer Park on over there as the cherry on top. It would be about time that someone put that beauty to use because it isn`t just going to go away.Condos / apartments up top and retail shops enough to supply the tenants down under. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 702 Registered: 09-2005 |
The neighbourhood is a little rough.... | ||
Eastsidedog Member Username: Eastsidedog Post Number: 886 Registered: 03-2006 |
Actually it's a booming neighborhood Upinottawa, right between Corktown and Mexicantown. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2390 Registered: 10-2003 |
Great Idea French777, Why don't you start your own "loft company"? Whatever the hell that is. You could go to Mr. Maroun with a huge check in hand to buy the building and do the conversion? I'm sure he'll jump all over that idea. Or why don't you start a little smaller and come up with the cash to buy the Free Press building and renovate it? How about the lawyers building on Randolf? Both of those are for sale, unlike the train station. Why don't you just start by buying a small house a fixing that up? Why are you waiting for "a loft company" to do it? If you think it's a great idea, get off your ass and do it. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 218 Registered: 07-2006 |
As I have mentioned before, I am not sure that the building plan would be ideal for lofts. I may be wrong, but the central section of the building is not that wide. That means that it would be difficult to have a central, internal hallway to give access to multiple apartments on one level. Of course, this could be solved by putting an elevator bank on each end of the building and having each loft go halfway across the building. That might create lofts that were too large to sell at a reasonable price, however. If anyone has drawings showing the buildings dimensions, we could try to figure this out. | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 86 Registered: 08-2006 |
quote: What? Sure, there's a few strays hanging around that area, but it's pretty close to Corktown and Mexicantown. I'm sure rehabbing MCS would greatly improve the area surrounding it. The only reason it is 'a little rough' now is because MCS is such a locus for homeless, trespassers, vandals, etc. Improving the station would improve the area. The much-improved block with Slows is also right next door. | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 703 Registered: 09-2005 |
Okay, let me rephrase, the area immediately surrounding the Depot is a little rough. This is due to the fact that the area has an abandoned train station. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 219 Registered: 07-2006 |
While I am not intimately familiar with the area, my sense is that Gsgeorge is right. Unquestionably, MCS is a great locus for elements of the population associated with crime. This remains particularly true because there is no one around to use Roosevelt Park except transients. The first step to improve the area would be to rehab the station, perhaps for mixed residential and office space. Then, fixing up the area immediately surrounding the park and enclosing it with infill housing (e.g., townhouses) on several sides would give the park some boundaries, and would place home fronts along the park, increasing security and driving out undesirable elements. Lastly, one side of the park could be developed with retail. Such a design for the area would help ensure foot traffic and would bring people into the park at various times of the day. That way, the park could be made to work for the neighborhood, instead of against it. | ||
Detroitrulez Member Username: Detroitrulez Post Number: 113 Registered: 12-2006 |
geez Ndavies....I guess one Vinton project gives you a lot of currency to call BS on just about anyone you please. then again frenchy's post (and the abandoned buildings thread-starter) are borderline retarded in their naif-eyed naivete. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4577 Registered: 10-2003 |
...Or convert the Roosevelt Hotel into condos maybe? Oh damn, somebody is doing that? | ||
Jjw Member Username: Jjw Post Number: 226 Registered: 10-2005 |
I think it is a great idea and hope that someday people can overcome the obsticles to make it a realistic renovation. That entire area is ripe for developement. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2168 Registered: 10-2004 |
A couple years ago, the previous "auditor-general" for Detroit pegged the rehab costs for the MCS at upwards of $140 million. | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 98 Registered: 10-2006 |
I would think that the demo of the station and development would be cheaper than renovation alone. That itself would keep potential buyers away. Then there's the fact that it's a huge parcel of land that would make purchase even more outlandishly expensive. Somebody with deep pockets, willing to lose money in the short term would have to step up. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2391 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Vinton isn't my first project, won't be my last. I started by renovating a small 1915 vintage house some 20 years ago. I've rebuilt and sold several other old homes since. I've also bought and sold several non-rehab places. Ever wonder where the up front cash to do the Vinton came from? You can't start with the MCS, but there are plenty of other projects that could be done with a limited amount of cash and a lot of sweat equity. I was only earning $14K a year when I bought my first place. I had lots of time and no money. Now I have very little time and enough finances to pay other people to do the work. | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 78 Registered: 08-2006 |
NDavies is there a reason you find it necessary to blast someone for asking speculative question? Why discuss the possiblitly of anything at all if your not capable of doing it yourself...right? In order to do anything like that with MCS it would have to be part of a much larger development, likely taking out the "wings" of Roosevelt park. | ||
Detroitstar Member Username: Detroitstar Post Number: 435 Registered: 01-2006 |
Demolition is cheaper than renovation in 9/10 projects, is it not? | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 832 Registered: 11-2003 |
Cman710 wrote, "...it would be difficult to have a central, internal hallway..this could be solved by putting an elevator bank on each end of the building" The hallway could easily be run along one side of the building to allow for bigger (but fewer) rooms. The current corridor's walls aren't load bearing, so this wouldn't be a problem. The same thing is being done for at least some of the floors at the Book Cadillac. There are already elevator banks on both ends of the building (reference: Kelli Kavanaugh's book). | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2393 Registered: 10-2003 |
It wasn't a Speculative question? It was pure fantasy. Anyone who even has a clue about Detroit development would know there is no way this market would be able to financially support it as residential. Look at the for sale towers in the CBD that people don't think they can make a profit with. Look at the issues that buildings like the Carlton, Eddystone and harborlight are having. They aren't anywhere near the size of the MCS. The MCS was too big for it's original designed purpose. After watching what it took to get the Book Cadillac done, there is no way in hell the MCS is going to be done in the next 20 years. The question was so absurd it deserved to be blasted. If french777 doesn't have the cash to do it, what makes him think anyone else has the cash and the will to do it? | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 222 Registered: 07-2006 |
Burnsie, You are correct that you could run halls along one side of the building. The problem is that then you would end up with a loft with windows only on one side, which is not very loft-like at all. It would be doable, but it would waste half the building's windows, which seems inefficient. I knew there were elevator banks on one side of the building from Kavanaugh's book, but had not noticed the ones on the other side. I will have to go back and look again. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 833 Registered: 11-2003 |
Cman710-- If the market price were high enough (admittedly doubtful) for the lofts, halving the number of available windows would be an acceptable trade-off. Obviously I and most others on this forum have no real idea what the market price would be. | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 79 Registered: 08-2006 |
Ok so why didnt you post what you just said to me? It was obvious he didnt know, which is why he asked the question in the first place. All you had to do was take the time to explain things to him like you found it necessary to do with me. If French knew the answer to begin with he wouldnt have asked the question. Instead of giving the information as to why its not feasible you found it completely necessary to poke fun at him. | ||
Swingline Member Username: Swingline Post Number: 673 Registered: 11-2003 |
One of the reasons that it is unlikely that the market will ever be in place to support a residential conversion of the MCS is the building's isolated location. The scope of any restoration would require "luxury" price points for the units. Luxury urban "loft style" living almost always occurs in a location that is walkable. But the MCS has almost no destinations within a half-mile pedestrian shed. And the few destinations that exist or which might be built in the foreseeable future are separated by vast stretches of pedestrian unfriendly streetscape. Urban buyers in the $300 per sq ft and up demographic will not spend their money to live in an isolated urban castle. Sadly, there just isn't a market among the buyers with money to make the numbers work. If a conversion of the MCS happens within the next 10 years, it will be a miracle that outshines the BC fivefold. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 223 Registered: 07-2006 |
Burnsie, that is true. I am guessing the market price would be below average compared to midtown and downtown apartments, but besides that, it's hard to say. On some floors, they could perhaps just have really large apartments and not have a hallway running all the way through. Or perhaps they could have one large apartment, and have the hallway begin there, so that at least some of the apartments had windows on both sides. Right now, however, it seems that the demand for residential housing would never be large enough to fill MCS. It seems like some kind of combined office/residential space would be more likely to be realistic. Unfortunately, the decay of the buildings makes any such project more and more expensive all the time. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1299 Registered: 11-2003 |
Another obvious problem would be that MCS looks out over a train yard. Isn't there an intermodal train yard behind MCS? Not exactly what everyone wants to look out over. But then again it is a very cool building. Anything is possible, but I just don't see the MCS being saved. | ||
Reetz12 Member Username: Reetz12 Post Number: 121 Registered: 09-2005 |
Username: Jams Post Number: 4577 Registered: 10-2003 Posted on Tuesday, January 16, 2007 - 4:18 pm: ------------------------------ ------------------------------ -------------------- ...Or convert the Roosevelt Hotel into condos maybe? Oh damn, somebody is doing that? Were these the ones that were to be open in Fall of 2005? Right down the street from the Mercury Coffee/bar? Is there any good news about his place opening soon? | ||
Gsgeorge Member Username: Gsgeorge Post Number: 87 Registered: 08-2006 |
What would be wrong with demolishing the tower portion of the MCS and just rehabbing the huge lobby/front portion into a proper train station, transport hub, or shopping complex? I'd hate to see any part of that building go, but it sounds like rehabbing the whole thing would be way too expensive. Saving the most historically valuable portion seems like a good trade-off. Then build some townhomes around it, leave a little bit of park, and perhaps convert that empty warehouse just next door into lofts? You got yourself a nice and attractive little place to live and work. | ||
Terryh Member Username: Terryh Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2006 |
It was going to be the new police headquarters? Remember that speculation? | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 257 Registered: 12-2006 |
Didn't that die a few years ago though? Last I heard was the sunken road international border crossing thingy. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2169 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: ...until the sweetheart-deal rumors with Maroun, KK, and his mother surfaced... | ||
Docmo Member Username: Docmo Post Number: 208 Registered: 10-2005 |
The infrastructure around MCS with all the rail lines and the overpasses can only be described as rough. I agree, the communities surrounding MCS are quite viable and livable neighborhoods. Doing anything more than what is presently being done would dramatically enhance Corktown/Mexicantown. | ||
Hans57 Member Username: Hans57 Post Number: 1 Registered: 05-2006 |
Isn't the building almost beyond repair at this point? I think the best thing that we can hope for right now is that Matty Moroun puts up some cash to do a slight preservation. You know, some moth-balling so it doesnt fall down in the next few years. Oh, and please welcome me graciously to the forum. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 1050 Registered: 01-2004 |
quote: From what I hear, the MCS is the must structurally sound ruin in the D. | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2006 |
Ndavis what is your problem and fact is I have renovated 2 houses in detroit. Also so you think that since I asked this question I should have money to make it a reality!! did you see the thread on the river bridge in Germany for 500 million Euro's o yea make woodward a river yeah thats going to happen. | ||
Terryh Member Username: Terryh Post Number: 83 Registered: 11-2006 |
The copper and most of the sculptures have been pilfered. Some were found a few years back. Can't remember the details of the story..... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2170 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: As with other buildings erected in its time frame, ca. 1912, it was overbuilt--making it very difficult to rehab without much added cost. Some day, if its and the adjacent land is economically viable, it'll be "gravity-imploded" like the Hudson building. But again, as in other ghost cities, there's way too much vacant or unused real estate the way it is. | ||
Reetz12 Member Username: Reetz12 Post Number: 122 Registered: 09-2005 |
Leave it as a landmark - The Fabulous Ruin of Detroit! Everyone that visits the city is amazed at the structure, maybe make it an historical marker. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 777 Registered: 04-2006 |
LY I have a feeling that Manny bought the building for some reason. I don't think the real estate will remain vacant for long. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2171 Registered: 10-2004 |
How much did Manny pay? I know it was something ridiculously cheap. I'd hardly consider it a purchase--more like a cheap gamble. From Wikipedia: quote: quote: quote: | ||
Bearinabox Member Username: Bearinabox Post Number: 103 Registered: 04-2006 |
If the topmost floors of the MCS were unfinished and unused to begin with, would it be feasible to rehab the lower floors, seal off and mothball the upper floors, and potentially rehab more floors if and when there is demand? Of course, this is assuming Moroun would be willing to sell for a reasonable price, which is highly unlikely. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 2934 Registered: 10-2003 |
or assuming Maroun, vampire, would be willing to spend any of his own money to do anything other than expand his transport monopoly..Very unlikely. I'm not sure where people are getting the idea that the neighborhood is "rough"...(maybe they are talking about the inside of the MCS) I can say that I've lived just behind the MCS for 2+ years, and that it's the safest place in Detroit that I've ever lived, except for the Detroit of my early childhood. The neighborhood is somehwhat cut off by the bridge, RR tracks and Train Station, and is about 90% owner-occupied There amount of new homes (and condos) on my street have doubled each year, thanks largely to the efforts of the non-profit Bagley Housing Association over the last decade. | ||
Designut Member Username: Designut Post Number: 99 Registered: 05-2006 |
Hans- after years of lurking, then finally joining the forum, you've actually posted something - so a most gracious "welcome to the forum" is indeed in order. Agreed - I'd be ecstatic if even a minor effort to mothball it actually occurred, let alone an actual plan for development. Of all the "what ifs?", Bearinabox's seems to be the most realistic. (though I won't hold my breath waiting for it to happen) Rehab the lower portion for use as any one of the things that Gsgeorge mentioned and mothball the tower. They could even put lights in the windows that face park and light up the tower when there's an event being held... like in the trailer for that crappy basketball movie that no one saw. | ||
Wolverine Member Username: Wolverine Post Number: 260 Registered: 04-2004 |
Oh MCS. One expensive building. Only one can understand it by going to the place in person. If you want to theorize what is appropriate for the building to become, or what need to be done for the building to become habitable, than I suggest you go in there at your own risk and do some research. These threads always tend to bother me because people make wild suggestions like tearing down half the building, or turning into lofts? Where the heck are these ideas coming from? I don't think people realize the scale of this building. It won't work as lofts, and would definitely bomb as a museum. A luxury hotel is starting to get just a bit more realistic, since the lower floors could be conference spaces, restaurant, atrium, pool etc. Underground parking is already there. Roosevelt park can be removed with new retail that would be part of some major Corktown redevelopment project. Very expensive, very risky. If that doesn't work, nothing else will except for that international trading center idea. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5045 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yeah, lofts for this one don't make any sense at all. People tend to think that every vacant, historic building can, or should, be lofts, and that's just not the case. The only realistic uses are a hotel, which couldn't be supported, at the moment, and especially not this far from the core. The other usage would be what it was supposed to be used before, and that's an office building, which is something that can't be supported there, at the moment. This project (renovation) is still years off, at best. | ||
Tetsua Member Username: Tetsua Post Number: 1061 Registered: 01-2004 |
Would it be feasible to clean the MCS a little, and have some kind of historic tours during the warmer months? Maybe just for a couple of weekends. | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 102 Registered: 10-2006 |
yeah and then when a company want to buy it and fix it up the cost would be less and people could learn about the importance the building had on detroit and such | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1304 Registered: 11-2003 |
I thought they did clean it out a little a couple years ago when KK was proposing the police station. I thought they also did some roof work and starting taking the windows out. When the police headquarters idea was scrapped it has again been left to rot. | ||
Southen Member Username: Southen Post Number: 82 Registered: 08-2006 |
The only time I think its been cleaned up at all is when Michael Bay is filming in the place. They clean up all the debris then place their own stuff. | ||
Jasoncw Member Username: Jasoncw Post Number: 326 Registered: 07-2005 |
Does anyone know if there was more of a master plan for that area? I personally can't imagine how growth was supposed to build up around the station. With the way the rails and parks are, I can't really imagine how things would fit in. Also, does anyone know of any real proposals? The wikipedia says Ford bought a bunch of land around the area, did he have any plans, or did the depression hit before there were any plans made. Were there any creditable plans in general? From anyone? | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 641 Registered: 08-2006 |
Leave the building be. Just let it be a piece of public art, a statement about Detroit and its history, good and bad. Its a beautiful building and it looks great. Its a testiment to a bygone era. seal it up, make sure its not going to collapse and just let it stand. Turn that big grass field in front of it into a nice neighborhood park. On a sunny morning the light could shine through the tower and onto the gardens. | ||
Cman710 Member Username: Cman710 Post Number: 230 Registered: 07-2006 |
The grassy field in front of it is a park, Roosevelt Park. Unfortunately, given the element of people MCS attracts into the park, it seems like you would need some serious attention from the police and the neighborhood to improve the situation. I think those two things could happen, with the right leadership. | ||
Eric Member Username: Eric Post Number: 667 Registered: 11-2004 |
Would you want an emptying, hulking building sitting around making a statement about your city? No one that lived here and had any sort of pride about the city, would suggest turning the symbols of the city's downfall into a tourist attraction. It was a horrible idea when Camilo Vergara suggested it in the 1990's for downtown buildings and it's no better with MCS. | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2006 |
MCS inspires such awe and sadness at the same time in me. Ive often considered just busting in there with a crew armed with wheelbarrows shovels and power washers for no good reason. Im sure we'd all be promptly arrested though. But it would definitely make a statement. I mean who breaks into a place to clean it? | ||
Mattric43 Member Username: Mattric43 Post Number: 109 Registered: 03-2006 |
I'm down Mdoyle!! I've wanted to do that for years also. Get rid of all of the garbage that has been brought in and left there. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 325 Registered: 12-2006 |
Someone start a group on this thread. "Citizens for the Cleaning and Preservation of Old Abandoned Buildings". | ||
Mdoyle Member Username: Mdoyle Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2006 |
Scs Im not sure how to take your comment. I know to the majority of the people this sounds like an absurd idea. Many will wonder "why MCS and not any other detroit building?" To them I have no answer. Since I first saw the building its inspired awe. Im not even out to make a pollical statement about the owner or the state of the city. I just think it would be n interesting idea. In addition perhaps the citizens of Corktown and Mexicantown could stage a joint "Take back Roosevelt park" project. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 328 Registered: 12-2006 |
It was a joke. Although if you wanted to go in there, I would probably try to help. I agree that MCS needs to have a lot of work done to it. I also agree with a lot of your points on the building itself (awe and sadness for the state of it). | ||
Milwaukee Member Username: Milwaukee Post Number: 642 Registered: 08-2006 |
"It was a horrible idea when Camilo Vergara suggested it in the 1990's for downtown buildings and it's no better with MCS." I'm sure it was, but the buildings downtown are nothing like MCS. MCS is a giant building a couple miles outside of downtown and is disproportionately sized. Unlike in downtown Detroit where buildings could easily be converted back to offices or lofts. "Would you want an emptying, hulking building sitting around making a statement about your city?" It tells a story about the city's past. If you've ever been to the south side of Chicago or even seen it from the freeway there are huge abandoned steel bridges and factories. They've just been left alone, they look beautiful and nobody is going to tear them down. Now if this all sounds like bull to you then you can chip in a few dollars for demolition or renovation. What would flattening a magnificent piece of history for more vacant land say about a city? Mindless, dying, hellhole with no respect for history? | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 218 Registered: 11-2005 |
Or why don't you start a little smaller and come up with the cash to buy the Free Press building and renovate it? Old Freep building needs a LOT of work. The outside of it is incredibly deceptive. When the paper moved in with the News down the street, the roof was already leaking, for starters. Plus, it's charm is mostly lacking on the inside. It'd require a complete gutting a la the B-C. It is a fine looking building on the outside, though. And don't forget the $200-million question: Where would the residents park? I'd love to see it saved, though. | ||
Jams Member Username: Jams Post Number: 4617 Registered: 10-2003 |
MCS owned by Matty Moroun = nothing is going to happen. |
