Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 Would Detroit Rival Chicago If... Previous Next
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Resurget_cineribus
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Username: Resurget_cineribus

Post Number: 4
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

...we didn't have the sprawl? Think of it a Downtown Detroit where Woodward Avenue is lined with such anchor stores which are now in Troy and other Detroit Suburbs. Neiman Marcus, Macy's, Nordstroms, Saks and even Ikea, all on Woodward Avenue spilling over into Midtown. Would we have lost many of the jewels that we have lost? How much better would things uniquely Detroit be, Eastern Market, Belle Isle, etc.? How would the skyline be different today if we had all of the Big 3 headquartered in downtown with their own skyscraper?
Speaking of skyscrapers, what if these beauts were downtown? I included some comparables to give some ideal of what the height would be for some of the 5 or less storied "skyscrapers laying on their sides" Sorry for all the links one day I'll break out the camera and do a photoshop job of what our skyline might look like without so much urban sprawl.

Galleria Office Centre: 1,125,000 sf
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ office/SO-galleria.shtml

Comparable: in square footage (sf) Compuware 1.1 mil sf and One Detroit Center 1,000,050 sf
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ detroit/compuware.shtml
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ detroit/DE-500woo.shtml

Southfield Towne Centers 1000 & 2000
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ southfield/SO-1000town.shtml
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ southfield/SO-2000town.shtml

Comparable in size to the Fisher Building
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ detroit/DE-fisher.shtml

Southfield Towne Centers 3000
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ southfield/SO-3000town.shtml
Comparable 150 W. Jefferson
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ detroit/DE-150wjef.shtml

Southfield Towne Centers 4000
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ southfield/SO-4000town.shtml
Comparable: Cadillac Tower
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ detroit/DE-65cadillac.shtml

First Center Office Plaza
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ southfield/SO-26911nwh.shtml
Comparable: Edison Plaza
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ detroit/DE-660plaza.shtml

Troy Office Centre
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ troy/TR-300-340ebigb.shtml
Comparable in square footage to:
The Guardian Bldg.
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ detroit/DE-500grswld.shtml

Here's a few other area suburban buildings that would really change our downtown skyline.
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ office/SO-americancenter.shtml
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ southfield/SO-25800nwh.shtml
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ troy/TR-201wbigb.shtml
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ troy/TR-100ebigb.shtml
http://www.buildingphotos.com/ troy/TR-50-100wbigb.shtml
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Hysteria
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Username: Hysteria

Post Number: 2206
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Chicago doesn't have sprawl?
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Scs100
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Username: Scs100

Post Number: 265
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I could've sworn that the outer parts of Chicago are sprawl.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2048
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Um, yeah, Chicagoland has sprawl. But it also has a healthy urban core, whereas Southeast Michigan looks more like a donut.
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 3590
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Difference also is that Illinois politics didnt have an economic, political, and legal biases against the core city. Also Chicagoland is just that- a region that shares the resources of the ventral city as opposed to every township with more than 10 people wanting to become is separate autonomous city with redundant services...
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2179
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sprawl is the perpetual excuse of some failing cities without sufficient gravity to draw in their exburb regions. Chicago prides itself as being a city that works.
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Gistok
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Post Number: 3449
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan that would be sort of like DC, except we don't call it a beltway. A nice middle, surrounded by poverty, surrounded by prosperity.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 477
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

maybe, but the fact is, we have the sprawl, which will prevent Detroit from becoming anything like Chicago in any of our lifetimes...

all the office space that exists in places like Southfield and Troy, all those towers, will remain too attractive of an option for businesses in Southeast Michigan to not consider moving into...
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2049
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Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Sprawl is the perpetual excuse of some failing cities without sufficient gravity to draw in their exburb regions.



You mean, the difference between Detroit and Chicago is the collapsed white dwarf star in the Loop???

quote:

Dan that would be sort of like DC, except we don't call it a beltway. A nice middle, surrounded by poverty, surrounded by prosperity.



Good attempt at overgeneralization, but despite the shiny new stadia and casinos downtown, Detroit has a ways to go....

And if the exurbs are what prosperity looks like, you'd think they could afford to build things that don't look like shit. I'd rather be destitute than to have "prosperity" like that.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8165
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 3:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All areas see sprawl. Detroit has seen sprawl and major disinvestment. Big difference.
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Mackinaw
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Username: Mackinaw

Post Number: 2327
Registered: 02-2005
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:02 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, Danindc, donut is the word. I did some research and found that 2/3 of the 4.6 mil metro population lives OUTSIDE the core of metro Detroit, which I called Detroit, the suburbs which border on it, plus a couple others like Royal Oak...the total population of the higher-density core is only about 1.5 million.

One cannot explicitly support resurget cineribus' (great screen name, btw) postulation, because indeed Chicago and Detroit and other cities have sprawl. However, his/her post leads us to face the fact: Detroit has an absurd amount of sprawl that is NOT driven by the fact that the center city is out of room. Metro Detroit's sprawl is taken to an extreme level, and is absurdly low-density.

If just a fraction of the office parks and mall stores of the sprawling suburbs were located in the city, specifically downtown, then we'd be a lot like Chicago. Likewise, if just a fraction of metro Detroiters were more comfortable and less scared of the central city, then these stores and offices probably would exist in the city.

Model D had a nice Detroit-Philadelphia contrast story, talking about how Philly built up a beautiful, high-density, and all-around awesome downtown. Now they do have some things going for them which we don't, but they did use the idea of a business improvment district, and they did post the sort of growth and garner the type of reinvestment that Detroit has the ability to duplicate. But we can't do it unless we start viewing our central city the way that east coasters and most Chicagoans do: as the center of all regional attention.
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Jjw
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Username: Jjw

Post Number: 228
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it best that Detoriters stop trying to compare Detroit to Chicago or NYC. Focus on Detroit. One step at a time. baby steps
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5419
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Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What makes Chicago so great in urban sprawl is through its economic job base. Chicago main job fuel is farming and merchantile stock market that never went away. Without it Chicago could be a dead city filled with hopeless development. Chicago was at that time a demarcated city with Blacks in the South and West sides, Whites in the North and Far-Northwest sides, Hispanics at the Southwest and Northwest sides and Asians at the Near South sides. Chicago did have white flight to the suburbs from the 1950s when its population was over 3.5 million but its booming suburbs slowed down in the 1980s due to smaller city incorporations to prevent a higher tax base. Its city politics remained mostly white back then, but now its diverse with a powerful ward system. Mayor Daley remains in power due to higher support in the Mexican/Hispanic communities including the remaining white communities. Most Black Chicagoans don't even like him due to corrupt empty promises in their communities. Every day violent crime including gang crime still plagues the black communities in Chicago causing more blacks to moved to mostly south suburbs such as Blue Island, Calumet City, Lansing, Dolton and Homewood. Chicago survive due to jobs, and many white folks didn't leave their north and northwest side communities, It's downtown is super beautiful jam pack with people. There is a little talk of racism and segregation, but the problem is rather fixed up and ignored later. Gentrification is full swing, in fact the infamous Cabrini Green Housing Projects on Davison and Wells Streets is now being transformed into luxury condos and single family homes forcing more Po'folks out into the street. It's Downtown is 10 times bigger then Detroit.

What makes Detroit so bad to our world society is because of these words that we see and hear everyday: SEGREGATION, XENOPHOBIA, FREEWAYS, SUBURBAN SPRAWL, WHITE FLIGHT, 1967 RIOTS, MAYOR COLEMAN A. YOUNG, GROWING BLACK POPULATION, POOR SCHOOLS, MORE VIOLENT CRIME, MORE VACANT AND ABANDON BUILDINGS, POOR AUTOMOBILE MARKET, ECONOMIC FLIGHT, BLACK FLIGHT AND GENTRIFICATION. If only white folks stayed in Detroit and stop talking about black folks are moving to our neighborhoods, black folks are causing trouble and find better ideals to increase the economic job base. Then they have to move out to greener pastures. Our Downtown is like a fossil of the Great Depression and city politics is bunch of crock. We need to stop bicker about the problems including the ghetto problems of what Detroit has and start fixing up out city. I'm not going to envy about how fancy schmancy Chicago is. I'm staying right here in DETROIT with the Street Prophets and The Ghettoman. For He believes there is going to be a ethnic change for the future of the city. Every in this forum should join in fix up the Detroit like the Ghettoman, The Street Prophets and me is doing right now.
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Scs100
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Post Number: 267
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 4:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you for that lovely insight Danny.
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Jams
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Username: Jams

Post Number: 4584
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Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 5:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Somebody mixed up the uppers and downers perhaps?
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Resurget_cineribus
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Username: Resurget_cineribus

Post Number: 5
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 5:10 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hear you Jjw but, it's hard not to compare or wonder when you know the place Detroit once held in the country and the world. You can't help but wonder or at least strive to reclaim some of your Grander. Not saying it will actually happen but maybe just maybe if the suburbs freeze over. BTW I'm not a suburb hater just a strong Detroit Booster:-)

(Message edited by Resurget_cineribus on January 17, 2007)
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Xd_brklyn
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Username: Xd_brklyn

Post Number: 205
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 5:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting note to the stock market in Chicago.

Among the many decisive moments in Detroit history, one would definitely have to be the crash of the Guardian Trust in Detroit. If I remember correctly from Lacy's "The Fords: Men and the Machine", the Detroit stock market was very close to matching the Chicago Stock Market just weeks before Wall Street crashed. When things bottomed out all-around, the State Government of Illinois came in and bailed out the Chicago markets. However, in Detroit, the Michigan governor of the time, James Couzens basically gave the "drop dead" signal to Edsel Ford's Guardian Trust enterprise. According to Lacy, his denial to provide state help to the Guardian Trust was to revenge Henry Ford for muscling him out his partial ownership in the Ford Motor Company soon after it became clear the company was bound for great wealth.

A decisive event, no doubt, yet I've only heard it mentioned in Lacy's book. Does any one else have a take on this? In any case, if true, this would be yet another one to add to Detroit's list of "What If's".

(Message edited by xD_brklyn on January 17, 2007)
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3rdworldcity
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Username: 3rdworldcity

Post Number: 412
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 5:21 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would Detroit Rival Chicago, If.....

Pigs Could Fly?
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 3454
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 5:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mackinaw, when you're talking about metro Detroit's dense core, you almost have to go out to M-59 on the north, and I-275 on the west. There has been a lot of infill in the last 5 years, and even such places such as Clinton Township, Sterling Heights and Livonia probably hold their own, density wise, against Detroit and inner ring burbs.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2037
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 5:41 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What some of you either forget or never saw and knew was Detroit once had everything Chicago had on a smaller scale.

There was retail and offices and thriving outer areas within the city at Detroit.Of course it aint that way now.

Chicago since that is the city suggested in the topic here has always had a city government that sees its primary purpose as providing great city services. Campaigns for alderman etc, etc are based on that.Detroit has never to my knowledge been that way.
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2865
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 6:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Citylover, Detroit has not had wards for almost 100 years. Of course people here do not know anything about retaining and working with neighborhoods and developers. Yes, Detroit used to be a mini-Chicago.
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Jelk
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Username: Jelk

Post Number: 4181
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 6:06 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit could be like New York with 6.5 million more people and the Statue of Liberty but the world doesn't work that way. Life is tough, get a helmet. Instead of naval-gazing, hand-wringing, and teeth-nashing about what Detroit isn't because of historical wrongs or what have you perhaps you should concentrate on what Detroit has the potential to be in a year, 5 years, 10 years, etc.

Grow up Detroit. And stop whining.
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8167
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Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 6:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Mackinaw, when you're talking about metro Detroit's dense core, you almost have to go out to M-59 on the north, and I-275 on the west. There has been a lot of infill in the last 5 years, and even such places such as Clinton Township, Sterling Heights and Livonia probably hold their own, density wise, against Detroit and inner ring burbs.



Wrong. I posted this awhile back and RO township was the most dense, closely followed by Detroit then non of the others were very close.
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Resurget_cineribus
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Username: Resurget_cineribus

Post Number: 7
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 6:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

When I used the word "rival" Chicago I was thinking more along the lines of being a happening, "cool city," bustling type of place.
One of the top tourist destinations in the Midwest. A city with an awesome ever changing skyline, not that it's all that bad now.
A city with a Downtown that has more than 1 or 2 four star restaurants and hotels (we're on are way:-). Come to think of it, I think Detroit does rival a lot ot the top cities when it comes to "better ghettos" if there is such a thing. I've been and now drive through a lot of depressing areas in the city. And I would rather have urban prairies and boarded up buildings any day compared to some of the ghettos in NYC and Chi-town. We may have it bad, but there is much worst.
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Gistok
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Post Number: 3455
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Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 6:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royal Oak Township no longer has that high density part of the township (Lincoln Towers and other midrise apartments near 10 1/2 Mile & Greenfield) that was taken over by Oak Park. So all statistics for Royal Oak Township would have to be reconfigured. And as we all know the remaining section of RO Township around 8 Mile and Wyoming is anything but high density.
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Irish_mafia
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Post Number: 687
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Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 7:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Dan that would be sort of like DC, except we don't call it a beltway. A nice middle, surrounded by poverty, surrounded by prosperity."
______________________________ ___________________

When we moved back to the city in 2000, it was called a donut... with a similar analysis about the prosperity surrounding the poverty.

The progress is that we now have the nice middle again... let's keep that middle growing... like the belly on a nice middle aged midwesterner and Detroit will be just fine.
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Ltorivia485
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Post Number: 2867
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Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 7:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well, most of Detroit's ghettoes are vacant. In NYC and Chicago, people still live in those areas, which makes it seem even more dangerous because of the higher density these two cities have.

Give me a Detroit ghetto with urban prairies and few human bodies over a Chicago/NYC ghetto anyday.
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Mackinaw
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Post Number: 2328
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Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 7:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gistok, the M59 and I-275 corridors are nowhere close to rivaling Detroit in population density. Even though they had the building boom and Detroit is probably running under half its "capacity" in terms of population and population density (which runs 6,000 to 60,000 across the city when all the homes/buildings are full--see 1950 census data), their built environment is such that it can never rival even a half-full inner-city. The point this emphasizes is the inefficient nature of the living patterns in sprawling metro Detroit, in which, as I have claimed, about 2/3 of the 4.6 million metro population resides (this area being roughly defined as north of 12 mile and west of Telegraph).

For reference:
DETROIT: 6856/sq. mile
Inner ring sampling:
Grosse Pointe Park: 5773/sq. mile
Grosse Pointe: 5297/sq. mile
Royal Oak: 5080/sq. mile
Dearborn: 4013/sq. mile
Grosse Pointe Farms: 3618/sq. mile
Southfield: 2984/sq. mile
Eastpointe: 2737/sq. mile
The outer ring:
Canton Township: 2,121/sq. mile
Clinton Township: 1,482/sq. mile
Auburn Hills: 1194/sq. mile
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Quozl
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Post Number: 89
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Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 10:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would Detroit Rival Chicago If...it were not the foreclosure capital of the United States?

Job cuts and risky loans get the blame in the Detroit area, where about one in 80 homes started the foreclosure process in the third quarter of 2006. The fire-sale prices are hurting other homeowners, too.

Empty houses with long, weed-choked grass, court orders pasted in windows, streets littered with "for sale" signs -- these sights are becoming a familiar part of the landscape in Detroit, where people are losing their houses at the fastest rate in the nation. Rising unemployment, a sliding real-estate market and risky lending are the culprits behind the Motor City's surge in foreclosures, analysts say.

"It's the worst area in the country, in terms of the economy," says real-estate consultant John Tuccillo.

More than 10,000 homes in the Detroit area entered some stage of foreclosure in the third quarter, a 42% jump from the previous quarter and a 121% jump from the same time last year, according to foreclosures listings and RealtyTrac, a data provider in Irvine, Calif. To put that number in perspective: One in every 80 houses in Detroit began the process of returning to the bank in that time -- a rate that is almost five times the national average.

Real-estate agents and neighborhood activists say job cuts -- especially at the Big Three automakers, Kmart and the businesses that served them -- have begun to take their toll on the local housing market. Families that had held on for a year or two on one income are now out of money and out of options.

"People were buying without a lot of cushion," said Tom Goddeeris, the executive director of Grandmont Rosedale Development, a nonprofit dedicated to revitalizing northwest Detroit. That meant when they were hit with a job loss or drop in pay, many buyers were unable to scrape together enough savings to make their monthly mortgage payments.

Sliding real-estate prices in Detroit have complicated the situation, reducing the amount of equity people have in their homes, making it harder for recent homebuyers to get lines of credit or sell their houses for enough money to pay off their mortgages.

It's not just low-income neighborhoods suffering. Foreclosures have pushed down prices across the board, says Detroit RE/MAX agent Tanya Thornton-Green, making other properties hard to move."My listings that are at market value really don't get showings," she says. "My bank-owned properties get showings every day."

Chalk it up to the fire-sale prices lenders are willing to take in order to get homes off their books. One foreclosure property that Thornton-Green represented was appraised at $60,000 but was sold by the bank for $30,000. Another, which carried a previous mortgage of $155,000, was listed at $113,000 by its lender.

It's hard to compete with price breaks like those, says Martin Bowman, a medical-device salesman who has been trying to sell his condo in the Detroit suburb of Southfield, Mich., after taking a new job in Minneapolis.

After six months on the market with only a handful of walk-throughs, Bowman has reduced his condo's $159,000 selling price by $5,000 -- less than what he paid for it three years ago.

He plans to hang on to that price as long as he can. But with another foreclosure unit in his complex selling for $120,000, he wonders whether he will eventually be forced to rent out his unit.

"I just can't go as low (in price) as the foreclosed properties," he says. "Even if I were to pay the mortgage for a full year, I wouldn't lose as much money as if I lowered my price to what some of the other condos are going for."

On average, a foreclosure property sells for 27% less than other properties in the area, says Rick Sharga, a RealtyTrac vice president. In neighborhoods with a large number of bank-owned properties, that number can slide even further. In Ohio, for example, the average foreclosed home sells for 43% less than other homes, according to RealtyTrac.

However, if these rock-bottom properties linger on the market, they tend to pull down prices of the homes around them, narrowing that gap. In a down market such as Detroit, for example, foreclosures can remain on the market for six months to more than a year, says Sharga, as properties move through the foreclosure process from notice of default to trustee sale to bank ownership and perhaps even a transfer to the Federal Housing Administration.

In Detroit's historic Rosedale Park, with its stately 1920s Tudors and Colonials, the rising tide of foreclosures has become a problem that neighborhood preservationists can no longer handle.

"There was a time not long ago when we could buy problem houses, houses that had gone in foreclosure or tax forfeiture," to fix up and sell, says Goddeeris, of Grandmont Rosedale Development. Now, he says, the number of foreclosures has far eclipsed his group's budget.

The best they can do now, he says, is help his neighbors track down the lenders responsible for the empty foreclosure properties on their block, so they can stay on top of routine maintenance, such as cutting the grass or repairing damage.

For first-time buyers without a house of their own to sell, these properties are a real opportunity, Thornton-Green says. But many buyers appear to be waiting to see how low the market will go. And that's making it hard for even real-estate agents to stay afloat without working side jobs. "I know a lot of people who have gotten out of the business in the last year," she says. Thornton-Green is considering a move to insurance sales or maybe a return to school to get an MBA.
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Lghart
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Post Number: 109
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Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've always been curious if anyone had ever put all the suburban towers & office buildings in downtown in a SimCity or another program and to show what the build-out of downtown could have been? Please share if you have.
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Yvette248
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Post Number: 376
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Posted on Wednesday, January 17, 2007 - 11:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If we were 4 times bigger with massive gridlock on the freeways for 12 hours per day :-)
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Detroitplanner
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Post Number: 783
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Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:33 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Quo, please provide a source, that is obvioulsy a newspaper article.

This thread is to silly for me to even put a smart assed comment on.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 767
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Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does anyone have an estimate on the population density in the 12th Street area before the riots? I've read articles hinting that the density was outrageous, and living conditions were substandard.
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Mackinaw
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Post Number: 2329
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Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:53 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Focus, here's what you want: http://www.cus.wayne.edu/conte nt/maps/Det-historical-popdens ity.pdf

this also helps illustrate what I was saying earlier about the city's "capacity"...as much as 67,000/sq. mile in 1950.
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Mplsryan
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Post Number: 152
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Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 2:34 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Regiolity has a great deal of influence. Look at a map, surrounding cities, rail lines, competition etc. Chicago has an advantage as the Midwestern metropolis. While in the urban studies program at the UofMN twin cities, they compared the two neighboring cities and why one was bigger and richer. St. Paul across the river directly competed with Chicago (ala stockyards and rail etc.) while Minneapolis had no competitor to the West other than mountains andsmall farming cities (ex. Fargo).Minneapolis had milling, St. Anthony Falls, and was also the first major settlement on the Mississippi to recieve the lumber from the great north. Detroit since the collapse of the automotive industry as it's main source of economic drive in aw ay has been competing with Chicago for economic base. That's of course when you are comparing large urban core to large urban core. The suburbs, Ann Arbor,Cleveland, Toledo are also competing for that same base and there simply isn't enough to go around in the upper lakes region at this point.
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Crash_nyc
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Post Number: 732
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Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 5:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Metropolitan areas of New York City and Philadelphia are both sprawled-out wide enough that there is even a bit of overlap in central Jersey.
NYC & Philly, although within 100 miles of each other, are thousands of miles apart in many senses. They each have their pros & cons, but one thing is certain for both -- they have very strong urban centers.

In any Metro area, as long as suburban sprawl keeps pace with urban development, it's all good. However, that has never been the case in Detroit.

Detroit is one of the few Metro areas of its size where the general consensus seems to always be that "the 'burbs are better" (I am not in agreement). So until the stigma of living within the city limits fades, the sprawl will continue, to the detriment of the COD.
Sad, but true.

I only hope that the new Downtown & Midtown residential developments have lit the fuse for a turnaround.

However, my pessimistic side remembers working in Rivertown during the late '80s / early 90's boom, and being convinced that it would lead to something better for Detroit. Let's hope that the virtual demons that reversed that shift don't ever come back to haunt Detroit again.

I'm keeping my fingers crossed for better times ahead.
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Jelk
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Username: Jelk

Post Number: 4182
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 9:08 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Well, most of Detroit's ghettoes are vacant. In NYC and Chicago, people still live in those areas, which makes it seem even more dangerous because of the higher density these two cities have.

Give me a Detroit ghetto with urban prairies and few human bodies over a Chicago/NYC ghetto anyday.



I don't know what kind of crack you are smoking but try walking through one of Detroit's urban prairies alone at night and then tell me it's safer then a dense neighborhood. Northwestern isn't what it used to be.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5420
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Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 9:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Metro_Detroit are is like one big urban donut.




Blacks in the center, that's Detroit. and whites at the outside, that's the suburbs and ex-urbs. Look how we create this racial donut. Only we have to do is have the proper ingredients and that's FEAR and you have yourselves a delicious racial donut. Those tiny black spots at the outside of the urban donut is black suburbs of Inkster, Harper Woods, Mt. Clemens and Roseville And the large glob outside from the center of the urban donut is R.O. TWP. Oak Park, Southfield and Lathrup Village. I was wondering since the center of the urban donut is gone bad, will the bad center of racial donut spread the inner ring suburbs before it reachers out the ex-urbs?
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 304
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 9:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

NY metro isn't as sprawled as Detroit when you compare population/land area of both. New Jersey is the most dense state in the country and it's essentially just one big suburb. I don't have exact numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if metro Detroit wasn't that much smaller (land wise) than NY metro.
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Ltorivia485
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Username: Ltorivia485

Post Number: 2870
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 2:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jelk, I feel MUCH SAFER in Detroit than if I venture out to the south and west sides of Chicago. I'm not a local and have no business down there. I don't care what you think.

Gangs are 5-10 times worse in Chicago too.

(Message edited by ltorivia485 on January 18, 2007)
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Scs100
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Username: Scs100

Post Number: 287
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 2:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I did the SimCity thing. My results: Bankrupt city (too many bonds) or I took disasters and destroyed the city with disasters. Otherwise, it worked out fine. City did fine and did usual, vacant/occupied routine.
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Jelk
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Username: Jelk

Post Number: 4189
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 2:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The south and west sides of Chicago may be less safe than areas of Detroit however density tends to make an area safer. I don't know if they taught this simple rule to you yet at Northwestern Junior College but correlation doesn't equal causation. There are other reasons said areas of Chicago may be dangerous but density isn't one of them.
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Mike
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Username: Mike

Post Number: 818
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 2:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

i think metro detroit looks more like a bagel
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Mpow
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Username: Mpow

Post Number: 234
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 4:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

mmmmm
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Hybridy
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Username: Hybridy

Post Number: 60
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 4:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

southfield & troy skylines???
tear that shitt down and move em downtown
then hall road will be that eerie abandoned strip of waste
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Jjw
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Username: Jjw

Post Number: 230
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 4:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does Hall Road have anything to do with Southfield and Troy? curious
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Scs100
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Username: Scs100

Post Number: 292
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 4:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not that I know of.

Hybridy, are you thinking of Big Beaver?
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Wazootyman
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Username: Wazootyman

Post Number: 181
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Two thoughts immediately come to mind:

1. There's a reason the skylines and/or buildings exist as they do in Troy and Southfield.

2. Just because it's not your urban utopia, it doesn't automatically mean it's bad.

I don't know the exact reasons for Southfield's growth, but I can speculate. Based on its proximity to Detroit, I would assume it had to do with the conditions and taxation that existed downtown when most of the skyline was built. Why build in a declining downtown area scattered with abandoned buildings when you could buy land cheap, and build in a relatively low-tax zone outside the city limits? Besides, I would estimate that by the time most of these buildings were constructed, a fair number of the potential workforce were already living close-by in the 'burbs.

Secondly, I really wish we could have discussion around here without knocking anything that isn't strictly urban. Some people like living, working and shopping in the suburbs. It's a matter of choice. You can claim all day long that a dense urban lifestyle is the only intelligent and responsible way, but Metro Detroit exists as it does because the people have spoken. Regardless, we have a pretty nice Metro, with a central city that is beginning to show some real life again.

I'm sure I'm in minority around here, but I really like Southfield. I like the unique skylines outside of Detroit...whether it be Southfield, Troy or Dearborn.

Those of you wishing for the demise of the Big Beaver strip need to grow up. You're absolutely no better than the people calling for the demise of Detroit.
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Focusonthed
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Username: Focusonthed

Post Number: 771
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, Chicago has suburban "downtowns" as well. There's nothing inherently wrong with this approach, as many live in the suburbs, this alone isn't a problem.

The problem with Detroit is that the central city is no longer the dominant place of employment.
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Wazootyman
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Username: Wazootyman

Post Number: 182
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 7:09 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At least downtown employment is on the rise. My dad has worked downtown for 30+ years and said that there were some downright desolate times back in the 1980's. If it weren't for a few companies like Comerica and GM that toughed it out, I can hardly imagine what downtown (or the New Center in GM's case) would look like today.
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Drankin21
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Username: Drankin21

Post Number: 50
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 7:24 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wouldn't it be more of a letter C - having Canada and all? A croissant maybe?

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