  _sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1679 Registered: 12-2003 |
There was an article that I can find about how the Big Three employee roughly 2.5 times more employees per 1,000 vehicles produced. The foreign nameplates produce 1,000 vehicles with about 15 workers. GM was somewhere around 40, Ford was in the thirties I think and DCX was below 30. While the article was championing jobs, it shows a bleak future for those companies and its workers. | ||
Stecks77 Member Username: Stecks77 Post Number: 259 Registered: 08-2006 |
And that article your referencing is located where and written by whom? Source please. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 512 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yeah, can't be current info in the nature of all the cuts they've made. | ||
Titancub Member Username: Titancub Post Number: 27 Registered: 08-2006 |
I saw the same report on CNBC this morning, can't recall the source though. It compared the market share of the big 3 and Toyota versus their share of the industry jobs. It basically showed that the Big 3 employ a disproportionate amount of workers relative to their market share. Something to the effect that Toyota has 13% market share, yet employs only 9% of the employees, while Ford has 16% market share and employs 19% of auto employees. Not sure if it was pre or post all the recent buyouts. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 514 Registered: 08-2006 |
The problem with a news statement like that it takes nothing into account for the past few years of right sizing. There is a direct relationship to shedding jobs and losing additional market share. The big three may heed the information stated in those findings to please the investors and share holders, but would be to thier own peril. | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 220 Registered: 08-2006 |
<----can't shake the Autoworld/"Me and My Buddy" scene | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2183 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Why do the endangered employees of the Detroit Three always seem to poo-poo stories that they don't like and also characterize them as being years old? Hell, the NAIAS is going on right now and a lot of any stories are new and others have probably been well researched as to their timeliness. And whose peril is Cambrian really concerned about? | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1680 Registered: 12-2003 |
It was in today's Free Press http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070118/BUSINESS01/701180357/1014/BUSINESS quote: quote: (Message edited by _sj_ on January 18, 2007) | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 516 Registered: 08-2006 |
"And whose peril is Cambrian really concerned about?" The peril of everyone unfortunate enough to work for the Big three when they fall to 4th 5th 6th place and eventually go bankrupt of course. If you were n't so heartless you would be concerned too. You seem to assume I am destitute about the state of the domestic car companies. Nothing can be further from the truth. I am in a business safe from the actions of stupid and greedy car company executives. Does that mean I should stop caring? I'm sure the story states there is still way too many union jobs right? Sounds like a hit job to influence more buyouts and job cuts. The domestics can only shrink so much before they are non existant. | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1262 Registered: 11-2003 |
Is it because they aren't counting white collar workers in Japan? If they are looking at only US employment, no kidding GM/F/DCX are all higher. They design the cars here and build most of them here. If Toyota, say, designs most of their cars in Japan and builds them here and sells almost as many vehicles as Ford, their number per car sold will certainly be lower. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1606 Registered: 06-2004 |
not to mention all the cars sold here built and shipped in from Japan | ||
Track75 Member Username: Track75 Post Number: 2475 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jerome's on the right track. These kind of studies have to be very detailed or you end up comparing apples to oranges. Look at GM for example, before and after the Delphi spinoff. The number of employees per 1000 cars surely went down after Delphi was jettisoned but the cost of those components to GM stayed roughly the same since they kept paying the inflated parts prices. The degree to which a company is vertically integrated will affect the employees/1000-cars stat but that isn't the best measure of competitiveness. You could have a company with high vertical integration and they could be the low-cost producer. quote:Cambrian, are you stating the obvious, that companies that lose market share end up with fewer workers? It reads as if you think the elimination of jobs causes lower market share. | ||
Firstandten Member Username: Firstandten Post Number: 62 Registered: 05-2006 |
This was bought up by one of the free press business writers last week. He mentioned that its time Toyota built a assembly plant here in se Michigan. If Toyota said they would build a assembly plant here in S.E. Michigan but it could not be unionized would we accept that? Or would we tell them to go stick it where the sun don't shine. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1295 Registered: 10-2003 |
U.S. autoworkers had better learn to accept the facts: 1) there will be fewer of them in the future... without reductions in the workforce the domestic industry cannot stay competitive; 2) they will have to accept lower wages, commensurate with what most non-college-educated Americans earn; and 3) unions will eventually have to disappear. That's the hard truth. The days of the lucrative assembly-line jobs with great benefits are soon to be over. Even so, I predict that the auto industry in 25 years will largely be Japan-based and Japan-controlled. You'll see a similar phenomenon to what happened with the North American electronics (TV, stereo, etc.) industry in the '60s, '70s, and '80s. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1178 Registered: 12-2003 |
People have been predicting that for 25, 30 years now, Fury, usually with the purchase of their first Japanese car. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1179 Registered: 12-2003 |
p.s. Did you check out that huge Toyota recall today? (wink) | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1297 Registered: 10-2003 |
It's OK... I'm not buying a Sequoia or a Tundra (not-so-good MPG on those two).  I wonder how many recalls that each of the automakers, foreign and domestic, have issued over the last 10 years? I wonder which automaker has issued the highest number of recalls? I'd be surprised if it was Toyota. Or Honda. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1681 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Yes, the article mentions that, but to see 30+ non production jobs being added on is scary. Toyota does have ~260k workers worldwide, where as GM has over ~320k. True, Track75 there are a lot of variables, however not taking into account is the amount of vehicles manufacture compared to vehicles sold. These numbers are an issue due to the Big Three HIGH prices and that leads to vehicles not selling and sitting in inventory. Those numbers are staggering in showing the bad climate the UAW and Auto Companies are in. Instead of going to war over the next contract they need to as a fellow UAW big wig said the other day, negotiate with the best interest of the company and not their own selfish interests. Recalls are not always a bad thing. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1682 Registered: 12-2003 |
According to Justia these are the total recall numbers. quote: | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 5826 Registered: 09-2005 |
Cambrian said: "I am in a business safe from the actions of stupid and greedy car company executives. Does that mean I should stop caring?" Cambrian, were you referring to the "executives" at the Big 3, or in Japan? And where does your granny have her pension funds invested? If those investments tank, you might not be so safe - but perhaps you don't mind her staying in your guest room. Actually, this should be good news for pro-union Detroiters - after all, it sounds like the Big 3 are doing their bidding by providing endless jobs/benefits whether folks are producing or loafing, right? And doing it far better than the Japanese. So once again, who is "stupid and greedy"? | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2400 Registered: 10-2003 |
I think you all missed the point of the study. It wasn't to show the disadvantage the companies had because they use more workers. It was to counter the foreign manufacturers claims of buying a foreign car helps employ US workers. The Level Field institute study was trying to show how many more U.S. workers were employed for each domestic designed auto Versus the number of U.S. employed by a foreign designed vehicle. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 5832 Registered: 09-2005 |
Ndavies, I grasped the concept - I'm trying to figure out the feast/famine discussion that goes on within these threads - Toyota "beats" Detroit = Detroiters whine. Big 3 show profits, employ more union workers, but pay execs bonuses = Detroiters whine. Both the Big 3 and foreign manufacturers realize this and now build their cars elsewhere. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 517 Registered: 08-2006 |
"Both the Big 3 and foreign manufacturers realize this and now build their cars elsewhere." Yes, the companies try to punish american consumers for not getting with the program and accepting lower wages in the face of higher white collar pay. Problem is the punishment goes both ways as people opt for products from companies they perceive as more socially responsible. Even when the facts point out that despite their piss poor attitudes towards working people, the big 3 still employ more US workers then the japs do. The article initially posted attempts to torpedo even that. Hence, yes, more job cuts equal more erosion of domestic market share. Don't look for those stats in the Det News, they won't be there. Local news papers would love nothing more than to see unions disappear, their butts must still be sore from the '95 strike. But those facts where stated in an article posted last month or so on this forum about US consumer's perception of the Big 3. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 5836 Registered: 09-2005 |
Cambrian said: "...the companies try to punish american consumers..." With what, higher stock prices? If the Big 3 doesn't do more of the same, there won't be a Big 3. Meanwhile, I suppose you support lax control of the borders so even more cheap labor can flow into the USA? The left = always chasing their tails. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 518 Registered: 08-2006 |
Definitely not! We have plenty of people around here that need work. I bet if you offered the shivering homeless guy downtown $6 / hr to pick oranges in Florida he'd jump at the chance. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 5839 Registered: 09-2005 |
Unfortunately, the oranges in Florida and CA are shivering also and may not need to be picked this year....... And I suspect the "shivering homeless guy downtown" is there by lifestyle choice, not because of lack of a $6/hr job. | ||
Hugo8100 Member Username: Hugo8100 Post Number: 23 Registered: 06-2006 |
It's ok to call them "japs" again? Hurray for xenophobia! The japs are takin' our jobs! Man the tariffs! Let loose the dogs of protectionism! | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1180 Registered: 12-2003 |
Hey Fury, Toyota's own government came down on it hard for underreporting problems, trying thusly to avoid recalls. So most of us now take their record of recalls with a huge grain of salt. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1683 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, we all understand the gist of the article. I even said it was a fluff piece about American Jobs but in turn also illustrated a big shadow. Recalls are nothing more than BS PR campaign to make you feel better. Half the time the recalled part is not even available. No one is taking our jobs, we are giving them away by demand high paying jobs and cheap goods. Also the rest of the working US who have 401k that rely on stock prices is not going to share your plight about high paying manufacturing jobs driving down stock prices and bottom lines. I never see anyone complain when Toyota outsources jobs to the US instead of keeping them in Japan. You can not have it both ways. | ||
Fury13 Member Username: Fury13 Post Number: 1301 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Ford nameplate had 3,000 recalls (according to the figures posted) and the Toyota brand had 275. Even taking under-reporting of recall-worthy problems into consideration (as well as somewhat lower production by Toyota over that time period), that's a HUGE disparity. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 522 Registered: 08-2006 |
I would not consider jobs shared between Japan and the US a comparable comparison to US jobs lost to micro wage countries like India and China who to boot have no environmental protections for thier people. US Executives and Biz owners sending work over there is exploitation pure and simple. | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1684 Registered: 12-2003 |
Many would argue that India is far from Micro Wage. | ||
Paulc Member Username: Paulc Post Number: 84 Registered: 03-2005 |
_sj_ - in rupees compared to dollars, yes they are. Wages are on the rise in India, due to the growth rate of jobs for educated workers. Workers there now have the ability to demand competitive (read: higher pay)... and once that trend continues, we'll find our next target country for cheap labor to keep the coffers filled. I see the writing on the wall, as I am in the Call Center/IT industry - with plenty of educated U.S. resources... it's all $$$. It is hard to believe the level of apathy towards our own work force in this nation. The blind allegiance to corporate capitalism is astounding. | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2402 Registered: 10-2003 |
The recall numbers posted above don't make any sense. There is no qualifying information. Are they total in the life of the company? are they annual? Are they for the last ten years? How many vehicles did each recall touch? Are the domestics numbers higher because one recall could effect 4 or 5 brand names, while at Toyota the most it would effect would be 2 brand names. 3000 recalls of 100 cars each is much better than one recall of a million vehicles. Comparing the recalls numbers of a company that has been selling cars here for a 100 years against a company that has sold cars here for 30 years is an unfair comparison. Without a description of how these numbers were collected they mean nothing. (Message edited by ndavies on January 19, 2007) | ||
_sj_ Member Username: _sj_ Post Number: 1685 Registered: 12-2003 |
Paulc, it is happening right now as the offshore movement is moving to Eastern Europe. nDavies, I do not have the link infront of me but they are pretty reputable and go back at least to 1969. auto-recalls.justia.com I think is the address, it is broken down into Nameplate->brand->recall | ||
Ndavies Member Username: Ndavies Post Number: 2404 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yes, I went there. http://auto-recalls.justia.com / It is just a list of recalls. The Data is correct. However, You can't base any decisions on the data as it is presented. It lists all U.S. recalls all the way back to a company's founding. It's not fair to compare Ford's total number of recalls to Toyota's when Toyota wasn't selling cars in quantity until the 80's. It is raw data that is very misleading. A better breakdown of info would be to correlate the number of recalls against the number of vehicles sold. Or to look at the percentage of vehicles recalled as time progresses. Just having Data is not good enough. It's how you analyze the data that matters. If you ask two men how many beers they've drank in there lives and they both answer 10,000, are they both the same? They both look like alcoholics. Now if I added the fact that one is 70 and the other is 25 are they still both the same? No, obviously the 25 year old has a severe drinking problem and the other is probably a moderate drinker. The site you quoted has a similar issue with it's data. There's not enough info in a head count to make an informed decision. | ||
Angry_dad Member Username: Angry_dad Post Number: 123 Registered: 02-2006 |
From last April: http://www.occupationalhazards .com/Issue/Article/38200/Workp lace_Health_and_Safety_Dirty_D ozen_Report.aspx Honda Motors, the worst auto assembly for safety in the United States. Allegdly, Toyota is hot on their heels. Say what you want about the cars and trucks that UAW people put together but at least they do their best to make sure their workers get to go home. | ||
Pffft Member Username: Pffft Post Number: 1181 Registered: 12-2003 |
Fury, Let me know how the paint finish on your rice eater does after a winter or two...it's taken them a while to understand how our winters work. |
