Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 Detroit Auto Companies employee 2.5 times more than foreign competitors Previous Next
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1679
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:14 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There was an article that I can find about how the Big Three employee roughly 2.5 times more employees per 1,000 vehicles produced.

The foreign nameplates produce 1,000 vehicles with about 15 workers. GM was somewhere around 40, Ford was in the thirties I think and DCX was below 30.

While the article was championing jobs, it shows a bleak future for those companies and its workers.
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Stecks77
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Username: Stecks77

Post Number: 259
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:18 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And that article your referencing is located where and written by whom? Source please.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 512
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, can't be current info in the nature of all the cuts they've made.
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Titancub
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Username: Titancub

Post Number: 27
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I saw the same report on CNBC this morning, can't recall the source though.

It compared the market share of the big 3 and Toyota versus their share of the industry jobs. It basically showed that the Big 3 employ a disproportionate amount of workers relative to their market share. Something to the effect that Toyota has 13% market share, yet employs only 9% of the employees, while Ford has 16% market share and employs 19% of auto employees. Not sure if it was pre or post all the recent buyouts.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 514
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The problem with a news statement like that it takes nothing into account for the past few years of right sizing. There is a direct relationship to shedding jobs and losing additional market share. The big three may heed the information stated in those findings to please the investors and share holders, but would be to thier own peril.
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Zephyrprocess
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Username: Zephyrprocess

Post Number: 220
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

<----can't shake the Autoworld/"Me and My Buddy" scene
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2183
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:39 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The problem with a news statement like that it takes nothing into account for the past few years of right sizing. There is a direct relationship to shedding jobs and losing additional market share. The big three may heed the information stated in those findings to please the investors and share holders, but would be to thier own peril.


Why do the endangered employees of the Detroit Three always seem to poo-poo stories that they don't like and also characterize them as being years old?

Hell, the NAIAS is going on right now and a lot of any stories are new and others have probably been well researched as to their timeliness.

And whose peril is Cambrian really concerned about?
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1680
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 1:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It was in today's Free Press

http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070118/BUSINESS01/701180357/1014/BUSINESS

quote:

The Level Field Institute projects the U.S. auto industry will lose 42,750 jobs this year, falling to 378,250 workers. The decline comes from expected cuts at GM, Ford and the Chrysler Group. Level Field expects foreign automakers to add about 3,000 jobs to raise their total U.S. employment to 106,000.



quote:

Even after the cuts, the Detroit automakers will employ 33 U.S. workers, including white- and blue-collar employees, per 1,000 vehicles sold, compared with 14 workers per 1,000 vehicles for foreign brands. Chrysler leads with 42 workers per thousand, followed by Ford at 31 and GM at 29.



(Message edited by _sj_ on January 18, 2007)
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 516
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 2:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"And whose peril is Cambrian really concerned about?"

The peril of everyone unfortunate enough to work for the Big three when they fall to 4th 5th 6th place and eventually go bankrupt of course. If you were n't so heartless you would be concerned too. You seem to assume I am destitute about the state of the domestic car companies. Nothing can be further from the truth. I am in a business safe from the actions of stupid and greedy car company executives. Does that mean I should stop caring?

I'm sure the story states there is still way too many union jobs right? Sounds like a hit job to influence more buyouts and job cuts. The domestics can only shrink so much before they are non existant.
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Jerome81
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Username: Jerome81

Post Number: 1262
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 5:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is it because they aren't counting white collar workers in Japan? If they are looking at only US employment, no kidding GM/F/DCX are all higher. They design the cars here and build most of them here. If Toyota, say, designs most of their cars in Japan and builds them here and sells almost as many vehicles as Ford, their number per car sold will certainly be lower.
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1606
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

not to mention all the cars sold here built and shipped in from Japan
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Track75
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Username: Track75

Post Number: 2475
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Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 8:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Jerome's on the right track. These kind of studies have to be very detailed or you end up comparing apples to oranges.

Look at GM for example, before and after the Delphi spinoff. The number of employees per 1000 cars surely went down after Delphi was jettisoned but the cost of those components to GM stayed roughly the same since they kept paying the inflated parts prices. The degree to which a company is vertically integrated will affect the employees/1000-cars stat but that isn't the best measure of competitiveness. You could have a company with high vertical integration and they could be the low-cost producer.

quote:

Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 514
Registered: 08-2006

Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 12:20 pm: Edit PostDelete Post Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)
The problem with a news statement like that it takes nothing into account for the past few years of right sizing. There is a direct relationship to shedding jobs and losing additional market share. The big three may heed the information stated in those findings to please the investors and share holders, but would be to thier own peril.

Cambrian, are you stating the obvious, that companies that lose market share end up with fewer workers? It reads as if you think the elimination of jobs causes lower market share.
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Firstandten
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Username: Firstandten

Post Number: 62
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 18, 2007 - 11:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This was bought up by one of the free press business writers last week. He mentioned that its time Toyota built a assembly plant here in se Michigan. If Toyota said they would build a assembly plant here in S.E. Michigan but it could not be unionized would we accept that? Or would we tell them to go stick it where the sun don't shine.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 1295
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

U.S. autoworkers had better learn to accept the facts: 1) there will be fewer of them in the future... without reductions in the workforce the domestic industry cannot stay competitive; 2) they will have to accept lower wages, commensurate with what most non-college-educated Americans earn; and 3) unions will eventually have to disappear.

That's the hard truth. The days of the lucrative assembly-line jobs with great benefits are soon to be over. Even so, I predict that the auto industry in 25 years will largely be Japan-based and Japan-controlled. You'll see a similar phenomenon to what happened with the North American electronics (TV, stereo, etc.) industry in the '60s, '70s, and '80s.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1178
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:28 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

People have been predicting that for 25, 30 years now, Fury, usually with the purchase of their first Japanese car.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1179
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:29 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

p.s. Did you check out that huge Toyota recall today? (wink)
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 1297
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 7:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's OK... I'm not buying a Sequoia or a Tundra (not-so-good MPG on those two). :-)

I wonder how many recalls that each of the automakers, foreign and domestic, have issued over the last 10 years? I wonder which automaker has issued the highest number of recalls?

I'd be surprised if it was Toyota. Or Honda.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1681
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 10:01 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Is it because they aren't counting white collar workers in Japan?



Yes, the article mentions that, but to see 30+ non production jobs being added on is scary. Toyota does have ~260k workers worldwide, where as GM has over ~320k.

True, Track75 there are a lot of variables, however not taking into account is the amount of vehicles manufacture compared to vehicles sold.

These numbers are an issue due to the Big Three HIGH prices and that leads to vehicles not selling and sitting in inventory. Those numbers are staggering in showing the bad climate the UAW and Auto Companies are in. Instead of going to war over the next contract they need to as a fellow UAW big wig said the other day, negotiate with the best interest of the company and not their own selfish interests.

Recalls are not always a bad thing.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1682
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 10:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to Justia these are the total recall numbers.

quote:


* Acura (86) (RSS)
* Aston Martin (34) (RSS)
* Audi (330) (RSS)
* Bentley (170) (RSS)
* BMW (844) (RSS)
* Buick (513) (RSS)
* Cadillac (308) (RSS)
* Chevrolet (2244) (RSS)
* Chrysler (458) (RSS)
* Daewoo (55) (RSS)
* Dodge (1809) (RSS)
* Ferrari (140) (RSS)
* Ford (3198) (RSS)
* GMC (1657) (RSS)
* Honda (435) (RSS)

* Hummer (13) (RSS)
* Hyundai (165) (RSS)
* Infiniti (90) (RSS)
* Isuzu (171) (RSS)
* Jaguar (209) (RSS)
* Jeep (421) (RSS)
* Kia (74) (RSS)
* Lamborghini (10) (RSS)
* Land Rover (128) (RSS)
* Lexus (53) (RSS)
* Lincoln (244) (RSS)
* Lotus (25) (RSS)
* Maserati (25) (RSS)
* Mazda (217) (RSS)
* Mercedes Benz (373) (RSS)

* Mercury (521) (RSS)
* Mini (6) (RSS)
* Mitsubishi (335) (RSS)
* Nissan (380) (RSS)
* Oldsmobile (426) (RSS)
* Pontiac (583) (RSS)
* Porsche (212) (RSS)
* Rolls Royce (205) (RSS)
* Saab (172) (RSS)
* Saturn (166) (RSS)
* Subaru (198) (RSS)
* Suzuki (170) (RSS)
* Toyota (275) (RSS)
* Volkswagen (519) (RSS)
* Volvo (1140) (RSS)

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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 5826
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 10:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cambrian said: "I am in a business safe from the actions of stupid and greedy car company executives. Does that mean I should stop caring?"

Cambrian, were you referring to the "executives" at the Big 3, or in Japan?

And where does your granny have her pension funds invested? If those investments tank, you might not be so safe - but perhaps you don't mind her staying in your guest room.

Actually, this should be good news for pro-union Detroiters - after all, it sounds like the Big 3 are doing their bidding by providing endless jobs/benefits whether folks are producing or loafing, right?

And doing it far better than the Japanese.

So once again, who is "stupid and greedy"?
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2400
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 11:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think you all missed the point of the study.

It wasn't to show the disadvantage the companies had because they use more workers. It was to counter the foreign manufacturers claims of buying a foreign car helps employ US workers. The Level Field institute study was trying to show how many more U.S. workers were employed for each domestic designed auto Versus the number of U.S. employed by a foreign designed vehicle.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 5832
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 11:54 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ndavies, I grasped the concept - I'm trying to figure out the feast/famine discussion that goes on within these threads -

Toyota "beats" Detroit = Detroiters whine.

Big 3 show profits, employ more union workers, but pay execs bonuses = Detroiters whine.

Both the Big 3 and foreign manufacturers realize this and now build their cars elsewhere.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 517
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Both the Big 3 and foreign manufacturers realize this and now build their cars elsewhere."

Yes, the companies try to punish american consumers for not getting with the program and accepting lower wages in the face of higher white collar pay. Problem is the punishment goes both ways as people opt for products from companies they perceive as more socially responsible. Even when the facts point out that despite their piss poor attitudes towards working people, the big 3 still employ more US workers then the japs do. The article initially posted attempts to torpedo even that. Hence, yes, more job cuts equal more erosion of domestic market share. Don't look for those stats in the Det News, they won't be there. Local news papers would love nothing more than to see unions disappear, their butts must still be sore from the '95 strike. But those facts where stated in an article posted last month or so on this forum about US consumer's perception of the Big 3.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 5836
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cambrian said: "...the companies try to punish american consumers..."

With what, higher stock prices?

If the Big 3 doesn't do more of the same, there won't be a Big 3.

Meanwhile, I suppose you support lax control of the borders so even more cheap labor can flow into the USA?

The left = always chasing their tails.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 518
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Definitely not! We have plenty of people around here that need work. I bet if you offered the shivering homeless guy downtown $6 / hr to pick oranges in Florida he'd jump at the chance.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 5839
Registered: 09-2005
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately, the oranges in Florida and CA are shivering also and may not need to be picked this year.......

And I suspect the "shivering homeless guy downtown" is there by lifestyle choice, not because of lack of a $6/hr job.
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Hugo8100
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Username: Hugo8100

Post Number: 23
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's ok to call them "japs" again? Hurray for xenophobia! The japs are takin' our jobs! Man the tariffs! Let loose the dogs of protectionism!
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1180
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey Fury, Toyota's own government came down on it hard for underreporting problems, trying thusly to avoid recalls.
So most of us now take their record of recalls with a huge grain of salt.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1683
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 1:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, we all understand the gist of the article. I even said it was a fluff piece about American Jobs but in turn also illustrated a big shadow.

Recalls are nothing more than BS PR campaign to make you feel better. Half the time the recalled part is not even available.

No one is taking our jobs, we are giving them away by demand high paying jobs and cheap goods. Also the rest of the working US who have 401k that rely on stock prices is not going to share your plight about high paying manufacturing jobs driving down stock prices and bottom lines.

I never see anyone complain when Toyota outsources jobs to the US instead of keeping them in Japan. You can not have it both ways.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 1301
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 2:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Ford nameplate had 3,000 recalls (according to the figures posted) and the Toyota brand had 275. Even taking under-reporting of recall-worthy problems into consideration (as well as somewhat lower production by Toyota over that time period), that's a HUGE disparity.
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Cambrian
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Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 522
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 2:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I would not consider jobs shared between Japan and the US a comparable comparison to US jobs lost to micro wage countries like India and China who to boot have no environmental protections for thier people. US Executives and Biz owners sending work over there is exploitation pure and simple.
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1684
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 2:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Many would argue that India is far from Micro Wage.
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Paulc
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Username: Paulc

Post Number: 84
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 3:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

_sj_ - in rupees compared to dollars, yes they are. Wages are on the rise in India, due to the growth rate of jobs for educated workers. Workers there now have the ability to demand competitive (read: higher pay)... and once that trend continues, we'll find our next target country for cheap labor to keep the coffers filled. I see the writing on the wall, as I am in the Call Center/IT industry - with plenty of educated U.S. resources... it's all $$$. It is hard to believe the level of apathy towards our own work force in this nation. The blind allegiance to corporate capitalism is astounding.
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2402
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 3:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The recall numbers posted above don't make any sense. There is no qualifying information. Are they total in the life of the company? are they annual? Are they for the last ten years? How many vehicles did each recall touch? Are the domestics numbers higher because one recall could effect 4 or 5 brand names, while at Toyota the most it would effect would be 2 brand names. 3000 recalls of 100 cars each is much better than one recall of a million vehicles. Comparing the recalls numbers of a company that has been selling cars here for a 100 years against a company that has sold cars here for 30 years is an unfair comparison.

Without a description of how these numbers were collected they mean nothing.


(Message edited by ndavies on January 19, 2007)
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_sj_
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Username: _sj_

Post Number: 1685
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 5:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Paulc, it is happening right now as the offshore movement is moving to Eastern Europe.

nDavies, I do not have the link infront of me but they are pretty reputable and go back at least to 1969. auto-recalls.justia.com I think is the address, it is broken down into Nameplate->brand->recall
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Ndavies
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Username: Ndavies

Post Number: 2404
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 6:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, I went there.
http://auto-recalls.justia.com /

It is just a list of recalls. The Data is correct. However, You can't base any decisions on the data as it is presented. It lists all U.S. recalls all the way back to a company's founding. It's not fair to compare Ford's total number of recalls to Toyota's when Toyota wasn't selling cars in quantity until the 80's. It is raw data that is very misleading.

A better breakdown of info would be to correlate the number of recalls against the number of vehicles sold. Or to look at the percentage of vehicles recalled as time progresses.

Just having Data is not good enough. It's how you analyze the data that matters. If you ask two men how many beers they've drank in there lives and they both answer 10,000, are they both the same? They both look like alcoholics. Now if I added the fact that one is 70 and the other is 25 are they still both the same? No, obviously the 25 year old has a severe drinking problem and the other is probably a moderate drinker.

The site you quoted has a similar issue with it's data. There's not enough info in a head count to make an informed decision.
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Angry_dad
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Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 123
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 7:20 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

From last April:

http://www.occupationalhazards .com/Issue/Article/38200/Workp lace_Health_and_Safety_Dirty_D ozen_Report.aspx


Honda Motors, the worst auto assembly for safety in the United States. Allegdly, Toyota is hot on their heels. Say what you want about the cars and trucks that UAW people put together but at least they do their best to make sure their workers get to go home.
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Pffft
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Username: Pffft

Post Number: 1181
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 10:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fury,
Let me know how the paint finish on your rice eater does after a winter or two...it's taken them a while to understand how our winters work.

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