Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 Bad Day for Toyota Previous Next
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1608
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/ news?pid=20601101&sid=aPs8fxHU offk
(yes, this applies to others but Toyota got the headline)

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/16 697719/
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 11148
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 1:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow, hot on the heals of their legal battle over oil sludge build up in their engines, nice.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 412
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 1:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bad news for Toyota = Good news Detroit.
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Hagglerock
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Username: Hagglerock

Post Number: 381
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 1:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yet I bet the millions of Toyota nation will excuse this as minor thing in the face of the so called bullet-proof Japanese reliability.

My brother excuses Toyota when his Camry has problems, as did I with my Japanese built Mazda. Good thing I traded that Mazda for a domestic. :-)
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2042
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 1:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

sport you are simply not a credible voice here.Your anti- asian bigotry makes it that way.

Yep Toyota is recalling a lot of trucks.It aint the 1st time.What you all seem to not acknowledge when you lift your heads out of the sand from time to time is that Toyota is making money hand over fist and has plent y of money to develop products that the domestics don't have.
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 415
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 1:26 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Citylover your status as a Detroiter is under review. Your pro-Toyota comments are being monitored. Be Advised. lol
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Hagglerock
Member
Username: Hagglerock

Post Number: 383
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 1:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CL resides in Ann Arbor I believe. Great town, I lived there proudly for four years, but people there sure love to smell their own farts.

If I recall correctly DCX had the same sludge problem with their motors too.
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Beavis1981
Member
Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 60
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 1:50 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

tired of bad gas mileage? buy a toyota. tired of pollution? buy a toyata. tired of high domestic prices? buy a toyota. tired of quality control problems? buy a toyota. oh wait a minute it seems the mighty toyota isn't immune to glitches! imagine that! boo-hoo just because someone/thing makes money certainly does not make it good i.e. chambers bros

p.s If any of you out there bought a hybrid thinking you are going to save money I would like to speak with you If you did because you love the smell of your own farts than more power to you!
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Mayor_sekou
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Username: Mayor_sekou

Post Number: 416
Registered: 09-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 2:00 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I loved that South Park episode Beavis1981 I laugh every time I see someone drive a Prius.
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Beavis1981
Member
Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 62
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 2:12 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lsd whats that? it's how we deal with our parents running around smelling their own farts. ok maybe a 1/2 hit
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Beavis1981
Member
Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 63
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 2:16 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

oh and sludge is mostly a lazy idiot problem more than manufacters problem sludge only forms when oil breaksdown from heat or lack of changing some motors are just more idiot tolerant than others
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Lilpup
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Username: Lilpup

Post Number: 1609
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 2:21 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not laziness in this case - Toyota had an engine design problem that caused build up. They tried hiding it and blaming it on their customers that's why the lawsuit came about.
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Bob
Member
Username: Bob

Post Number: 1301
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 7:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is one thing that all the analysts have been saying, Toyota needs to be careful not to grow too fast that they sacrifice quality. There was an article in the Free Press not too long ago about recalls and I was trying to remember if it was Toyota or Honda that was accused of covering up recalls by calling them other things just so they would not be considered a recall.
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Gravitymachine
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Username: Gravitymachine

Post Number: 1469
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 8:29 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

toyota: moving forward, backwards
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El_jimbo
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Username: El_jimbo

Post Number: 22
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 8:41 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

wow...that's comforting. 533,000 Big trucks and SUVs on the road with poor steering. Just what I want when I'm driving my small car.
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Ro_resident
Member
Username: Ro_resident

Post Number: 191
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 9:39 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Car Talk column on Wednesday in the Detroit News dealt with this very issue.

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070117/O PINION03/701170331/1149/AUTO03
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Track75
Member
Username: Track75

Post Number: 2479
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 11:38 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Recalls get too much attention. The number of cars recalled is only very loosely related to the underlying quality of a vehicle for several reasons.

Sometimes there may be only a few bad parts but if the manufacturer can't determine with certainty which specific vehicles those parts were installed on, they have to recall all vehicles that might have had the bad parts. 99% of recalled vehicles may be just fine but you don't know which are which so you have to recall them all.

Recalls deal only with safety or emissions problems. A car with tons of other problems will look great from a recall perspective. A good car with the "wrong" things wrong with it will light up the recall list.

A better measure of quality is the manufacturer's internal warranty claims data. From what I've seen, it correlates pretty well with JDPower data, a little less well with Consumer Reports, but those are decent proxies for the real facts.

On a more general point, the Japanese aren't as bulletproof as people think and the domestics aren't as bad, but perceptions are based on decades of experience. Those perceptions of quality were hard won by the Japanese makers. Similarly, the reputation for lesser quality was deservedly earned by the domestics over the years. These perceptions last a long time in the public's mind, meaning the Japanese can rest on their laurels for quite some time before any real world quality problems will sully their stellar reputation. And the domestics have to kick butt on quality for a lot more time before they'll be credited with their accomplishments.

If that doesn't seem fair, remember that the domestics enjoyed years of acceptance in the 60's, 70's and 80's when their actual quality level wasn't up to par. They lived off the goodwill from previous years, as the Japanese do now. In 15-20 years, if the domestics keep their quality as close as it is now to the Japanese they will probably be seen as equal on quality. It takes a long time.
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Bob
Member
Username: Bob

Post Number: 1302
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

To go with what Track75 said. With cars becoming more technological and including computers (Onstar, etc) a recall for a software or computer upgrade is also considered a recall.
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Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian

Post Number: 519
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 12:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree, it seems Toyota has lost focus, they got where they were by providing smart, practical and dependable vehicles. Now their focus is over taking GM. The results are coming home to roost.
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Supersport
Member
Username: Supersport

Post Number: 11154
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 1:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've said it before, I'll repeat it. As production numbers grow, as is the case with Toyota and Honda, more production issues will come to light. It is harder to keep a handle on quality issues, as the import companies have proven in recent years, as well as through their years of covering up issues from the public. It's the nature of the beast in which eventually gets ironed out, just as the domestics have solved most of their quality issues from the 1980's. I view the industry at a crossroads right now, where competition was so dead set on increasing sales, their quality slipped.

VW ran into the same troubles, as popularity of their vehicles shot through the roof, production ramped up, then quality slipped. My last companies diesel Jetta knocked down around 48 mpg, but after just 70,000 miles or so it started having numerous issues. It was going to the dealership every few months for problems, sometimes so serious that the car lost almost all power and was unable to accelerate.

As for CL, you are simply not a credible voice here.Your anti-American bigotry makes it that way. :-)
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Fury13
Member
Username: Fury13

Post Number: 1300
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 2:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"VW ran into the same troubles, as popularity of their vehicles shot through the roof, production ramped up, then quality slipped."

True, that.
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Angry_dad
Member
Username: Angry_dad

Post Number: 122
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 6:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Consider what has happened to Consumers Reports also. Their supposed testing of child car seats and their report. Turns out CR didn't know their tests were complete frauds. If they screwed on this, what else have they screwed up? As if any of their ratings have any statistical validity to begin with.

BTW, The Toyota sludge defect is real, it's disgusting the tactics that a few Toyota loyalists have resorted to in defense of their obsession.
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Beavis1981
Member
Username: Beavis1981

Post Number: 70
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 10:42 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I never said it was not real. I should have looked into the exact use of sludge first. SLUDGE is being used as umbrella term for bad head gasket/quality control problem. I read the petition against toyota. The common denominator seems to be gas/coolant in the oil. this would foam the oil and therefore lubrication would be lost. This can be caused by a few things- faulty head gasket, faulty machining, faulty metallurgy, over/under torque of head bolts, or just plain clumsiness when building engine. Either way toyota is proven human and therefore not without flaws
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Gannon
Member
Username: Gannon

Post Number: 7932
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 11:24 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Consumer Reports lost me when they dumped on the VW Rabbit throughout its production run after the first two years of oil consumption problems with their 1.6L 4-banger.

Chrysler bought it for their Omni, their engineers formulated a solution...VW implemented it. Overall, I think it was a cultural thing, since Germans know to check their oil and are more hands-on with vehicle maintenance than the average American.


Regardless, CR never let it out that VW solved their problem...yet reminded their faithful readers in EVERY small car survey of 'the oil consumption problem'.


Then there is the little issue of them being completely clueless with their home entertainment equipment suggestions...and my subsequent efforts over the years tenderly educating buyers at retail.

I always loved the ones who would just bolt for the door the moment any illumination was offered! Either way, at least they were easy to spot...they ALL brought the magazine into the store!!



BTW, VW/Audi had terrible sludge problems with the 1.8t engine as well...more VW than Audi but their production numbers are greater. Silent 'recall', if I remember correctly.

Mine now has just under 250,000 miles on it, so I guess I got a good one.
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Hagglerock
Member
Username: Hagglerock

Post Number: 387
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Friday, January 19, 2007 - 11:56 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Angry Dad brings up a good point, how much other crap have they screwed up. My Toshiba TV craped out after only 2 years, but it was a recommended buy in Consumer Reports.

Consumer Report finally lost me when the said they got 15mpg overall for the Jeep Liberty Diesel. I've nor anyone on my Jeep forum has gotten worse than 19mpg. Many get 30+ on the highway. It turns out their methods to measure fuel consumption are not conducive to diesels. Many Jeep forum members with strong diesel backrounds wrote them exposing their faulty method. They haven't responded.

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