Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2007 » Support Bishop Gumbleton « Previous Next »
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Oldredfordette
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Post Number: 1060
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Detroit's resident saint, Bishop Tom Gumbleton, has been given the boot by the Vatican and Archdioscese of Detroit. Here's a short film about Gumby that explains and asks for help:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v =u0j0PSIbXp0&eurl=
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Kronprinz
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Post Number: 14
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 3:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gumbleton is a Trojan Horse. He should have been ostracized and sent packing many years ago.
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Corktownmark
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Post Number: 247
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 3:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of the great things about this forum is the diversity of opinions. I have admired Tom Gumbletons work for a long time. I am suprized by your comments Kronprinz. Can you explain both sentences?
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Oldredfordette
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Post Number: 1062
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 3:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Whatever. The ad will run in Sundays paper.
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Gannon
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Post Number: 8012
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Every time I heard of or bumped into the Good Bishop, it was a positive thing.

Here's to good karma coming back around, Trojan Horse!

IF he was, he had a life-long bellyache.
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Kronprinz
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Post Number: 15
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He's a wonderful voice for the disaffected, no doubt. He's had a great impact on social justice issues, articulating the need for all of us to be our brothers keeper. He is not, however, a Bishop who seems terribly concerned with the "Church Militant" ... indeed he went down to Columbus, OH and spoke before the statehouse in favor of a bill that would get rid of the statute of limitations on abuse cases concerning the ***catholic church only!*** against the wishes of the Bishop's Conference of that state. Some readers might think that's heroic, but I don't. Any kid abused by a public school teacher, a baptist minister, whatever, had a statute of limitations ...he followed the spirit of the times and bashed his own Church. He also has a long long history of preaching doctrinal error and heterodoxy. I wish him well but he should have left the stage long ago, for the sake of the Church.
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Southwestmap
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Username: Southwestmap

Post Number: 681
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Bishop Gumbleton is a fine man and an excellent churchman, a champion for peace of the highest order He deserves a lot better than he is getting.

However, he is a complicated man with a complicated past and just labeling him a saint without a deep consideration of his past, especially as it regards the priest abuse situation is misleading.

For example, Gumbleton was a young Archdiocesan central-office leader during the 60's and early 70's when many of the abusive priests were being shielded and moved around. Gumbleton was in charge of priest assignments during those years. His good friend and fellow Bishop Ken Utner was in charge of Sacred Heart seminary when many of the accused priests were seminarians. Neither of them seemed to notice anything going on. Utner is dead, but Gumbleton has never, to my knowledge, alluded to or made any apology for his own role in moving and shielding abusive priests.

Many of his peers think it very convenient to his concern for victims that he now personally recalls being hit on by a priest, now dead and unable to defend himself, that Gumbleton remained close to all the rest of that priest's life.

There is a certain element of vindictiveness in his being asked leave St. Leo's. That is unjust, but you need to remember that Gumbleton himself had the reputation of a somewhat ruthless administrator - his way or no way.

Interesting that he's in trouble because he went to Ohio and inserted himself in the wrangle about whether accused priests should be protected by the Statute of Limitations law (he says no)when many reading this will say that Gumbleton should not be judged by what he said or did thirty years ago, but by what he is now. He is not willing that such a judgement be allowed for priests whose cases he knows nothing about. Many think he should have just stayed out of it.

I am a Catholic and I can admire and be realistic about the fact that the leaders of the Church are just humans. Gumbleton may very well be a "saint" but but even if he's not without human fault , I can still admire and learn from him - his simple spartan life, his peacework, etc.
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Jjw
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Post Number: 235
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

just another reason why i left the catholic church.
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Patrick
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Post Number: 3920
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 4:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Kronprinz, you're a good Catholic now arent you?
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Goat
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 4:46 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Leaving a religion because of people who may tarnish the message of God? Sadly it is your loss.
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Jjw
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Post Number: 236
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 5:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

leaving the church because it is archaic is a just reason. this bishop is a good man. I have nothing against him. but i no longer felt comfortable in a church that is manipulative and hypocritical.
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Mikeg
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Username: Mikeg

Post Number: 493
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 5:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Support Fr. Solanus Casey - he will be Detroit's resident saint long before Bishop Gumbleton.
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65memories
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Username: 65memories

Post Number: 331
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 5:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thomas Gumbleton is one of the most decent men one could ever meet, true to his values and strong belief in the goodness of God to prevail. What the Detroit Archdiocese is doing to him is a shame. Here is a shepherd who truly tends his flock. I have always admired his peace-loving ways and his fight for the downtrodden. If more people shared his fight for Social Justice, the world would be a better place.
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Mackinaw
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Post Number: 2355
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^No doubt Solanus Casey is more worthy. I respect what he has done for immigration rights, I think his St. Leo's project is great, and I really don't mind priests being socially/politically active. However, some of his theology and views on the liturgy are a bit out there.

Now, I'd like to see some proof that he was treated any different than any other bishop who reaches the age of 75. They are supposed to submit letters of resignation to the pope, and when Gumbleton did not, it rang of slight disrespect and perhaps a "holier than thou" attitude.

In my opinion, the church leadership is better off without him. He can continue to focus on what he does well, such as aiding the poor and helping others to do the same. But we are better off without some of his antics and some of his stances which contradict church teaching. Something is wrong when a priest wears a mitre with a pink triangle on it...controversial because it signifies gay rights, and furthermore because it is was used as a Nazi symbol to identify homosexuals in concentration camps. Yes, this really did happen. ...on top of all this I can't imagine the sort of views he might harbor regarding liturgical reforms, which most sane Catholics would probably consider corrosive to the traditions of the Mass.

Gumbleton: good man, but not a completely dutiful Bishop.
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Mackcreative
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Username: Mackcreative

Post Number: 13
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 6:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The current pope is older than the bishop, should he be forced to retire?
Please consider reading Bishop Gumbleton's homilies at
http://ncrcafe.org/blog/34/
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Chitaku
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Username: Chitaku

Post Number: 1066
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 6:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the pope looks like Emperor Palpatine in Star Wars. Dark black around the eyes is a standard for evil
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8017
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

and/or some vitamin deficiency.


If something is proven to be institutionalized, should there be a standard statute of limitations?


It should almost fit under the RICO laws, and limits of time eliminated due to the difficulty in facing an institution, or other extenuating circumstances...better to gather repeated similar evidences over time with a variety of individuals, stronger trend to help prove institutionalized behavior.


PLUS, better IF the Good Bishop help account for his portion of the wrongdoings in these non-limited lawsuits...should he really want to cleanse his conscience and shake up the Church.


Maybe he should finally let those fellows out of his belly...might be too late now, though.
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65memories
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Post Number: 332
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 6:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Here are Bishop Gumbleton's last remarks at Mass last Sunday:

http://ncrcafe.org/node/864
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Mackcreative
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Username: Mackcreative

Post Number: 14
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Posted on Thursday, January 25, 2007 - 9:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think that one of the problems with Catholicism is that many practicing Catholics are not practicing Christians. It's not that I am trying to judge, it is just an observation that I have made throughout my life as a Catholic. In fact, despite a solid Catholic upbringing, Catholic schooling and weekly mass, it wasn't until I began attending Mass at St. Leo's and listening to the teachings of Tom Gumbleton that I really realized what it means to be a Christian. It is as if my eyes were opened to the light of a very simple truth that somehow became obscured by clouds of tradition and technicality. Being a Christian means to look at Jesus' life and follow his teachings and actions by applying them to our lives directly in any way we can. I feel very sorry for Catholics that believe it is more important to follow traditions rather than the footsteps of Jesus because they are lost. Tom Gumbleton sees a need for reform in the Church and he speaks our against evil no matter where it resides even when it is within the very church he serves. This is the very same thing that Jesus was doing 2000 years ago when he challenged the law of his own religion and stood up to the pharisees. Tom Gumbleton is a manifestation of Jesus in this world. There is no question that his actions are guided by the ministry of Christ. If you deny it you deny Christ. If you deny it after hearing him speak you are not listening with an open heart. It is a sad state of affairs when the representatives of the Church on earth have closed their hearts and deny their own founders teachings.
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Oldredfordette
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Post Number: 1064
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Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 3:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not a dutiful Bishop? Another reason to love Gumby. We have enough obedient people in this country. Not only Christ-like, but downright unAmerican.
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 710
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Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 8:02 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gumby is a nice guy.

He confirmed me and my Mom has known him since they were kids.

I wish him well personally, but his rebellious Bishop routine neither represents the church well nor would one expect that any superior would put up with it.

Time to move on and deal with the next chapter in his life.
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Queensfinest
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Username: Queensfinest

Post Number: 4
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 9:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

For what it's worth, there is an article in today's NY Times on the Bishop.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/01 /26/us/26bishop.html
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8028
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Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 10:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mackcreative,

I am floored by your post. In an earlier part of life, I could have written it verbatim.

Church where this MY dawning occurred was at St. Elizabeth's down in Wyandotte...they used to have a charismatic mass at noon where afterwards they'd simply sing praise music for a half hour or so. It was amazing for this twelve-year St. Alphonsus refuge to see nuns and priests yield themselves publicly to a move of the Holy Spirit through songs of praise.

It was probably the second time that ANY Catholic experience didn't feel like a dead history lesson.

First was a specific time during private mass during a weekend retreat up at the old St. Paul's retreat house up in Pontiac during my senior year opened me up fully to the flow of the Holy Spirit. I can never forget that 'other' feeling in the room when we prayed holding hands that night.

I received my personal confirmation of my 'born again' status outside the church structure, but am blatantly aware that God IS able to work through even very broken constructs of mere humans.

(Far as I know, EVERYBODY gets their own nod from God in their own way, none are ever exactly the same. I have never, ever seen God do the same thing exactly the same way twice. Never, ever the same. Ever! What creativity this Being must be.)(repeat again if this doesn't sink in!)

That is why I can simultaneously call out abuses within the church, while knowing full well that God can, will, and DOES work through individuals who ask, seek, and knock towards Him directly without any mere human intervention.


Your words show me that you have experienced what our lame language calls a 'born again' experience.

The fruits of that experience start with a renewed mind which leads to more open perspective and clearer overall outlook.

It is ALWAYS clear when someone goes through this sort of event, it is always a life-changer. It HAS to be...one cannot truly bump into a form of God, then welcome this Being into themselves, and walk away unchanged!

Please do not flinch from the term, it has been widely abused by televangelists and others who seek to USE religion and spirituality for their own gain.

I cannot find a better one, though, and it IS scriptural...at least with our current translations.

Cheers, brother (or sister)!
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Quozl
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Username: Quozl

Post Number: 121
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Posted on Friday, January 26, 2007 - 10:43 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Happy 77th Birthday Bishop Thomas J. Gumbleton.

Sorry the Archbishop of Detroit, Cardinal Adam Maida screwed you over since there nothing in canon law that would prohibit him from permitting a retired auxiliary bishop from serving as a pastor after 75.
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Spirit2028
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Username: Spirit2028

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Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 10:14 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I had the pleasure of hearing Bishop Gumbleton's anti-war message. I wonder what the Pope's view on the war is ? It takes courage to speak out and the Bishop has it in buckets. I recently added a short video clip on Bishop Gumbleton to this web site. Go to www.DET.com and click on the video icon at the top of the page. Today many people will speak out in Washington D.C. Will anyone be listening ?
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Oldredfordette
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Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 10:25 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think they will, Spirit.

They will be speaking at the corner of 11 Mile and Woodward at noon today. Join us!
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Taj920
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Posted on Saturday, January 27, 2007 - 2:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think Fr. Lentine at St. Philomena is still a pastor and he is close to 90. Sharp as a tack too.
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Swiburn
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Post Number: 31
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Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 10:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's too bad that Fr. Gabriel Richard has never been canonized. He may not have performed actual "miracles," but his accomplishments are legion: first priest in Congress, co-founder of the Univ. of Michigan, established plank road to Chicago, first printing press in Michigan, etc.
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Karl
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Post Number: 5988
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Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 11:06 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Mackcreative, your spiritual journey generally follows that of Martin Luther 500 years ago. Bringing things back to the main focus - Jesus, and His teachings as expressed by and thru the Bible - and ridding ourselves of earthly trappings and entrapments - is the essence of following Him. Churches do have non-Christians, but not sure if they're non-practicing - at least they're there, and perhaps listening. It is a start, and better than not going at all. One never knows what goes on in the heart of another, nor exactly when the HS pries it open.

Continued Godspeed,

Karl
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Quozl
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Post Number: 162
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Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 11:16 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bishop Frederic Baraga should be canonized too Swiburn. When Frederic Baraga (1797 - 1868), a young Roman Catholic Priest from Slovenia, arrived on the upper Great Lakes frontier in 1831, his objective was to bring Christianity to the Native peoples of that quarter, particularly those of the Ottawa and Ojibwa (Chippewa) tribes. His travels to many outposts of the old fur trade, to Native communities, and to the new mining camps of the region, became legendary, earning for him the nickname “the snowshoe priest.”

Frederic Baraga's Short History of the North America Indians is the account of his first years in Michigan Territory. It was composed for the enlightenment of his supporters in Europe, particularly the membership of his sponsoring agency the Leopoldine Society of Vienna. This detailed account sheds light on the nature of mid-nineteenth century Catholic missions to the New World, and includes observations of Native communities on the Lake Superior frontier, including hunting techniques, tools, and cultural features of these tribes.
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Gannon
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Post Number: 8098
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Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Mackcreative, your spiritual journey generally follows that of Martin Luther 500 years ago. Bringing things back to the main focus - Jesus, and His teachings as expressed by and thru the Bible - and ridding ourselves of earthly trappings and entrapments - is the essence of following Him. Churches do have non-Christians, but not sure if they're non-practicing - at least they're there, and perhaps listening. It is a start, and better than not going at all. One never knows what goes on in the heart of another, nor exactly when the HS pries it open.

Continued Godspeed




I wholeheartedly agree with this, and may I add...in my experience, there are always non-believers in a church setting...a few of the worst are the ones leading the practise!


Even with the best of intentions...without a full flow of the Holy Spirit, mere humans can be blind and deaf and devoid of Love.

Pursue the questions you have about life until you receive a distinct awareness of YOUR personal confirmation from the Maker. It should be similar but not identical to anything you've heard from others...but one that unmistakably YOU know is an answer to the deepest question in your being.


Never stop if you still have doubts.
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Karl
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Username: Karl

Post Number: 5990
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Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 11:58 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gannon said: "...there are always non-believers in a church setting..."

Strange, the same situation exists outside church settings also. If one thinks, one might realize this same phenomenon exists in all settings & beliefs everywhere in society and is non-exclusive to churches and/or Christians.

Then Gannon said: "Pursue the questions you have about life until you receive a distinct awareness of YOUR personal confirmation from the Maker."

You may never have this "distinct awareness", many are simply faithful and believe. Don't let that discourage you - our actions as Christians are in response to the gift we've been given - the same one we anticipate each Advent, celebrate each Christmas, painfully recall each Good Friday and again celebrate each Easter.
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8103
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Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You will always have this distinct awareness when you've found the path.

If you've never had it, you're not on it.

You could have all the faith in the world through an institution that chokes the LIFE out of it.

UNTIL one simply has faith in the ONE Who Made All Things directly and simply, not just some religious institution's understanding of It...then all of the actions as Christians in response to the world will be just off the mark enough to cause the HUGE gulf between what I deem Xtians (those almost there but not yet in the full flow of the Spirit) like Karl here and those they seek to help.


I have NO doubt that the Karls of the world have the best intent. That is why at lease OURS has such a persistence, he really thinks he is able to aid those he deems lost and/or potentially at risk.


Go to all the holy day services you want, Karl. Please read CS Lewis' Screwtape Letters. You are still grossly unaware of your merely human nature.


Same with me, that's why I'm re-reading it now.
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Kronprinz
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Username: Kronprinz

Post Number: 16
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Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 4:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Gannon Said: "You will always have this distinct awareness when you've found the path.
If you've never had it, you're not on it."

John, Cardinal Newman Said: "We can believe what we choose. We are answerable for what we choose to believe."

More on Gumby:
http://www.azstarnet.com/metro /166825

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