  Genesyxx Member Username: Genesyxx Post Number: 660 Registered: 02-2004 |
A road industry group is pushing for a 9-cent increase in the state gas tax as a way to help fix Michigan’s roads and lend a hand to the state’s ailing economy. The tax increase faces an uphill battle, and not only among drivers weary of paying dearly at the pump, the Michigan Infrastructure and Transportation Association acknowledges. But spokesman Mike Nystrom says MITA hopes to sell lawmakers and drivers on a 9-cent gas tax increase, possibly phased in 3 cents a year over three years, in addition raising the 15-cent-a-gallon diesel tax by 4 cents a gallon so that it’s equal to the state’s current 19-cent gas tax. The diesel tax would rise in unison with the 9-cent gas tax increase. MITA also is pushing for increased state fees for registering and licensing vehicles. Nystrom said this morning that the group has no exact numbers yet on this aspect of the proposal. But the group could ask for as much as a 50% increase in vehicle registration fees. Nystrom said the average vehicle registration in Michigan is $110; MITA’s proposal would raise that to $160. “Obviously, the needs are real,” Nystrom said. “This isn’t just something we’re making up. We think this is something that could help pull Michigan’s economy out of the doldrums it’s in.” It also could go a long way toward helping ease the huge gap between Michigan’s road needs and the money the state can spend on repairs. Various studies have found that the state faces billions of dollars in roadwork it won’t be able to afford in the coming decades. But the gas tax and vehicle licensing and registration increases could prove highly unpopular with voters. And so far, Nystrom says, no state lawmakers have been willing to sign on to the proposal. Michigan last raised its gas tax in 1997 by 4 cents. | ||
Gambling_man Member Username: Gambling_man Post Number: 937 Registered: 11-2003 |
And in about 1993 by 5 cents. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 707 Registered: 10-2003 |
Has anybody ever taken a look at the inefficiencies of our road construction and maintenance? I'm hearing this guy say that he we can tax ourselves into prosperity. How about if we overhaul the process and invest in long-term materials ala Europe 1st. This is not the time for a tax increase of any kind in this state. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2244 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Unfortunately, unless the state gets serious and fires some from its already bloated "work" force, stiff tax increases and new taxes are literally just around the calendar. There is a current revenue shortfall of some $3 billion for the state alone. There will be yet others for the local governments in SE MI, notably Detroit, coming too. Just maybe, the public sector might finally fire some of them... But, a gambling man should put his money on the side of increased taxes if a bet were to be made. | ||
Lowell Board Administrator Username: Lowell Post Number: 3604 Registered: 10-2003 |
Why does my radar start beeping when I hear a proposal coming from the road industry for raising the gas tax to repair roads and then toss the bone "lend a hand to the state’s ailing economy"? Oh how thoughtful and concerned of them! If we are going to raise taxes, how much better to place a tax on internet access and send a portion to me and, of course, lend a hand to the state's ailing economy. One way to save money is to make the state legislature a part time occupation with 90 day annual sessions. Less cost and we don't have to deal with all their frivilous laws passed to make them look like they are doing something. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2407 Registered: 11-2003 |
With the economy in the shape that it's in, MITA can go pound sand! This will never fly after the guv announces her tax hikes next month. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 857 Registered: 04-2006 |
This proposal is NOT just for roads. Funding will be split using the current formula to fund transit as well. Unfortuantely, the transit side of the equation is not as vocal as the roadside. http://www.drivemi.org/PDFs/ne wdollars.pdf | ||
Spaceman_spiff Member Username: Spaceman_spiff Post Number: 39 Registered: 02-2006 |
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't the use of road salt a significant factor in damages to roads? I understand that it is cheaper than alternative treatment, but it takes a pretty significant toll on my tires and the environment as well as the roads. I would support a tax raise if the state would internalize these costs by purchasing more expensive and less damaging de-icers. Heck, it would be great if road crews simply rescraped the roads around me a few hours after laying salt down and walking away, instead I get a crazy hazardous sheen that people drive way too fast on. -spiff | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2250 Registered: 10-2004 |
It's just another scam for the construction industry and the sand-and-gravel lobbies seeking jobs and income for their self-interests. Virtually all road building and transit is borne on the backs of the taxpayers. And their butts will be severely reamed this year and, because taxes rarely go away, for every year in the future. So, it's just one of several new taxes in addition to having stiff increases in current tax rates. Be alert and be prepared. There will be much more like this coming. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 9179 Registered: 10-2003 |
Instead of building more roads that the state cannot afford to upkeep maybe the state should look at MASS TRANSIT! | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 740 Registered: 09-2005 |
That pdf does state some of the economic spin off benefits of investing in transit. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2354 Registered: 02-2005 |
I can support the tax ONLY if it goes for maintaining existing roads, and provides some substantial funding for mass transit. If it is to continue to subsidize sprawl as this state has been doing, then screw it. I don't mind a tax on gasoline because a fixed amount like this will seem more miniscule the more that prices rise, and this is what will happen. | ||
Chitaku Member Username: Chitaku Post Number: 1064 Registered: 03-2006 |
poor poor michigan | ||
Upinottawa Member Username: Upinottawa Post Number: 741 Registered: 09-2005 |
What are Michigan's gas tax rates vis-ŕ-vis other states in its geographical area? Increasing the gas tax will help Michigan achieve two top goals of George W. Bush: the increase in price will decrease demand for gasoline thus decreasing automotive use and therefore increasing the use of public transit which will reduce dependence on foreign oil and decrease global climate change.  | ||
Jerome81 Member Username: Jerome81 Post Number: 1270 Registered: 11-2003 |
If it will be used for new road construction, I say hell no. Which actually brings up a good question: Why is michigan still expanding its metro regions with new roads and new homes when the population is stagnant or decreasing? Use what is already developed. There is PLENTY already for that. You build new roads to be paid for by the same number of people who now make less in income. Why? | ||
Sticks Member Username: Sticks Post Number: 191 Registered: 08-2005 |
Pretty much echoing others here when I say, "How about not building any more damn roads?" Also, isn't the main reason sprawl came to be is due to cheap fuel and cheap land? Well, I haven't heard much about land prices going skyhigh so I say YES to the tax. Get rid of the cheap fuel part to the equation and see what happens. Either density goes way up or people get the fuck out of Michigan. I mean, a dime a gallon. Wow. Assuming my car gets 30mpg (only on highways, usually better in the warmer months), even if I drove 30 miles every single day of the year (or 11,000 miles per year), how much more would it cost me? A whopping $40 per year? Is my math right? That's not much people. Even those living below poverty could afford that, although, they might save more by selling their car and buying a bus pass. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 114 Registered: 12-2006 |
Jerome81, The metro region expands because Michigan law encourages and subsidizes sprawl. That's the bottom line. If you are in a rural community at the edge of suburbia, and you want your community to stay rural, Michigan says: tough luck, your neighbor has the right to build subdivisions on his property, and you the taxpayer are on the hook for the necessary infrastructure improvements and maintenance that will necessary follow his new subdivisions. It didn't help, here in southeast Michigan, that Detroit decided to extend water and sewer service out to the far corners of the earth. But the sprawl is written into our constitution and our laws; unless they change, it won't. Professor Scott | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 652 Registered: 10-2003 |
We need to send a clear message to our state representatives that the state needs to reduce cost by eliminating inefficiencies and redundancies in the school budget and state government. Consolidate schools and provide long distance learning to students. If new road building needs to be reduced or eliminated then so be it. From what I have read and learned, the state doesn't taken in enough tax revenue to support the infrastructure we currently have and it is only going to get worse. | ||
Jiminnm Member Username: Jiminnm Post Number: 1165 Registered: 02-2005 |
The states' gas tax rates are here: http://www.gaspricewatch.com/u sgastaxes.asp Michigan looks to be near the middle. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2253 Registered: 10-2004 |
Michigan's revenues are short by $3 billion this tax year, assuming its current expenditures will continue as before. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3685 Registered: 10-2003 |
WHat can we the populace do to stop the unchecked sprawl in the region and force our law makers to change or curtail some the laws that encourage existing practices? | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 859 Registered: 04-2006 |
Upinottawa, Michigan's gas tax is among the lowest in the country. Michigan also has no toll roads like many other states have. Michigan's constitution forbids local option sales taxes, which are found in most cities to pay specifically for transit. Most cities get a 0.5 to a penny for supporting transit on top of portions of the gas tax and property tax revenues. As I've said before, we have crappy transit and crappy roads because that is all we are willing to pay for. We ultimately pay dearly for this in the form of more front end repairs, longer commute times, and poor access for those who cannot afford cars to access employment centers. The congested roads help keep our economy not very competive as we have an economy based on just in time delivery, with much product stuck in traffic. We can't afford not to increase our investment in transit. It will more than pay for itself in economic spin-offs. | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 653 Registered: 10-2003 |
This will back up other postings. Sales tax revenue is flat and the politicians know that it is really difficult for the average consumer to reduce their gasoline consumption. Mass transit is available but it limited and time consuming. People can cut back in discretionary spending but not on gasoline. "Consumers will continue to purchase similar amounts of gasoline until an alternative to current driving patterns can be adopted." "As s result of the per-gallon nature of Michigan's gas tax and the fact that the demand for gasoline is very price inelastic (ie, there are very few close substitutes in the short run), the amount of revenue collected from the state excise tax is not significantly affected by the increase in gasoline prices. "Fiscal Years 2002 to 2005. During this period, estimated sales tax collections on gasoline purchases increased quite significantly from $321.4 million to $546.1 million, or about 70 percent. At the same time, total sales tax collections have remained relatively flat." http://www.crcmich.org/PUBLICA T/2000s/2006/note0601.pdf | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2256 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Do not forget that Michigan also charges an additional sales tax on the gas purchase too in addition to the "gas tax." When gas prices rise, so does the sales tax (and vice versa, fortunately). That hidden tax is not chump change. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 860 Registered: 04-2006 |
thats true LY, however, none of that goes into paying for the roads. Many states also charge a sales tax on top of a gas tax. Sometimes its amazing when you look at how taxes are derrived and siphoned off into different pots. You think that years of reform would have made this stuff simpler, but it has ended making it more complex. Just look at the property tax/proposal A thread. Two percent of the sales tax goes directly to the school fund! If you could cut out the sales tax, at $2 a gallon, the nine cents would actually be a decrease. This would make the gas tax far more rationale. However, this would make the states educators go bezerk and require them to raise taxes. Gasoline taxes however will soon be a thing of the past the way we know them. With the advent of non-taxable fuels and electric assisted cars, there is no longer an equitable distribution of those who use the road most, and drive the larger cars pay. The whole system really should be scrapped, but there is no clear way of scrapping it short of making the registration fees obscenely high; even that would be unfair to grandpa who may have an Escalade but only drive it 2,000 miles a year! | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2257 Registered: 10-2004 |
Michigan should privatize its very bloated public sector before it has another "one-state" recession in that category also. Indiana and Illinois are now privatizing former state-run functions. A couple days ago, Chicago started privatizing its water utility (I heard on the radio), so it would be informative for someone to check that rumor out. The major bitchers about this privatizing concept would be those in the public sector. Tough! It's about time they got real jobs. | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2006 |
I think it's close to technologically possible to put sensors in the road bed that could track drivers and then send a bill for thier exact use. That would be the right thing to do. Some serious thinking should be done about the government's role in infrastructure and other "essential free goods". It's hard to come up with the country's most coddled and subsidized industry, but trucking would be up there. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2259 Registered: 10-2004 |
Vehicles have "black boxes" in them now that can spy on their drivers. The trucking industry is in the early stages of mandating them in OTR tractor-trailers and other vehicles. At some point, I wouldn't doubt that the government will mandate sensors that can detect and track overloaded trucks or hours violations and fine them even before they put the trucks on the highway. Those boxes are already here and more elaborate ones are coming. | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2006 |
If it can be done, people should be charged for their exact use of the roads. Gas taxes are a step in the right direction, but you need to cut the other tax funding and privatize the whole thing. As far as I know, trucks do a lot more damage to the roads than they pay for. If the government got out of this area we would most likely be living in a world of dense cities, privately funded high speed rail lines and major toll roads. | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2006 |
“Obviously, the needs are real,” Nystrom said. “This isn’t just something we’re making up. We think this is something that could help pull Michigan’s economy out of the doldrums it’s in.” Throw this argument in the sewer. By this logic, the guy who robs you to buy drugs is stimulating the economy. The thing has to be looked at as a way to fund infrastructure and also to place more of the cost of driving on drivers-- not as some kind of economic benefit. | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 104 Registered: 10-2006 |
well i agree with it.... they should also raise the sales tax to 8 cents that would do so much for our schools and roads and such | ||
Miss_cleo Member Username: Miss_cleo Post Number: 385 Registered: 05-2005 |
they should also raise the sales tax to 8 cents that would do so much for our schools and roads and such oh bullcrap! They mis-manage the money they get now, they build roads with inferior product,wheres all the money they get now for the schools going? so yeah, lets give them even more money to waste! | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 709 Registered: 10-2003 |
"well i agree with it.... they should also raise the sales tax to 8 cents that would do so much for our schools and roads and such" ______________________________ _________________ You don't have to wait French. Calculate your extra payments now and send your check in. As for trying to pry the money from the rest of us for this boondoggle, please keep your hands out of my pocket. | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 322 Registered: 10-2006 |
All for higher costs of gas here. Make it as high as in the European countries and there will simply be more demand for mass transit, and I love mass transit. | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 176 Registered: 03-2006 |
This tax increase isnt for our roads its to help the phony bureaucratic government and self serving special interest. And to tax gas? We cant even afford it now. And cant wait for the Lodge to be shut down for a whole YEAR. | ||
Miss_cleo Member Username: Miss_cleo Post Number: 386 Registered: 05-2005 |
All for higher costs of gas here. Make it as high as in the European countries and there will simply be more demand for mass transit, and I love mass transit. Thats great, but you are forgetting all the people who do not live in the cities. There really isnt any need for mass transit up here in Charlevoix. Mass transit isnt the answer to everything, it doesnt work for everyone or every place. The people who dont live in cities or near any mass transit still have to buy gas, so that thinking is a little unfair | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8206 Registered: 10-2003 |
Quick analysis of the gas taxes (does not include any additional costs such as sales tax, etc.) On gas: Michigan is 32nd most costly at 19 cents while the ranges are 32.1 to 7.5 National average is 20.84 cents. On diesel: Michigan is the 6th cheapest in the country at 15 cents while the ranges are 35.1 to 7.5 cents. National average is 21.33. Now for the important thing. The gap tax between diesel (assuming mostly trucking) and gas (assume mostly citizens) is 4 cents more for gas. This is the largest gap that favors diesel in the entire nation. There are only 9 states that have a lower tax for diesel. Why is Michigan charging such a lower tax for diesel when many claim the roads are torn up due to trucks and high truck weights. The average gap for diesel to gas is .5 cents higher for diesel. Maybe we should look at equalizing the gas to diesel tax. We are undertaxing diesel compared to other states. I am sure there is a strong trucking lobby in Michigan but I see now reason why we, as taxpayers shoudl subsidize more wealth for people like Manny Maroun. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8207 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: And the entire state is paying for all state roads. Why should the 5-6 MM people in SE Michigan subsidize the cost in low populated areas like Charlevoix. The taxpayers in SE Michigan and denser parts of the West side of Michigan subsidize much of the costs of the north, central and UP areas of the State. (Message edited by jt1 on January 26, 2007) | ||
Miss_cleo Member Username: Miss_cleo Post Number: 387 Registered: 05-2005 |
Maybe we should look at equalizing the gas to diesel tax. We are undertaxing diesel compared to other states. Now, there is a good idea, are you listening jenny? | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2006 |
And the entire state is paying for all state roads. Why should the 5-6 MM people in SE Michigan subsidize the cost in low populated areas like Charlevoix. " That pretty much states my point. Why is it in the interest of people living a rational and sustainable existence to be forced to pay for people who are not ? In olden times, we had cities, railroads for the transport of bulk goods and transit between cities and a pretty minimal road network. We were on a rational path that was detoured by massive government action. The NY subway system was started by private companies. | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 176 Registered: 11-2004 |
According to the link provided, Michigan was tied for #20 for the lowest gas tax. Here's a comparison for the gas taxes of some "Northern" states (in cents/gal): Indiana 18 Michigan 19 Illinois 19 Iowa 20 Minnesota 20 North Dakota 21 South Dakota 22 Ohio 26 Pennsylvania 31.1 New York 31.9 Wisconsin 32.1 | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 861 Registered: 04-2006 |
One argument people make is why can't we have transit and europave like in europe? Well most countries in europe charge a lot more in gas taxes that pay for it than the united states does, but the united states has a much larger network for transportation than any other country in Europe (heck it might be the world). | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2264 Registered: 10-2004 |
Then add another 11 cents per gallon or more for the state sales tax in order to arrive at the real Michigan gas tax. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 36 Registered: 12-2006 |
Ok...let me address a few things that have been brought up in this discussion and then a few points I would like to make. On Government/MDOT employees 1. Government is much smaller than it was even a decade ago. There have been several rounds of buyouts (the most recent being 4 years ago) that have greatly reduced the size of the state government's workforce. That number could possibly decrease more as another buyout proposal is working its way through state congress as we speak. 3. MDOT employees are paid using federal funds. Therefore, their wages (roughly 3,000 employees) are not taken from the state's general fund and therefore do not contribute to the state's debt. 4. MDOT as an organization, contributes very little to the state's general fund debt. Roughly half of its funding comes from Michigan's take of the federal gas tax. The other half comes almost entirely from the state gas tax and vehicle registration. These are separate pools of money that are not added into the state's general fund. Compared to other government agencies, MDOT is by far the most self-contained. 5. Under the current administration, MDOT has been presented with at "Fix it first" policy. This means that MDOT's highway program consists of 95% preservation work (repairs to existing pavement) and only 5% towards capacity expansion on existing roads or new roads. This policy likely would continue under a tax increase 6. The gas tax does more than just road work. It funds improvements in safety programs such as improving signage and guardrails. It funds improvements and maintenance to carpool lots and Congestion management and air quality improvement programs. It also funds the state's bus, marine, rail, and aeronautics programs which include providing support for regional mass transit to regional transit authorities and MPOs. 7. Some of this money is given to municipal and county road commissions to fund local road improvement, not just state owned roads. 8. Revenue that is used to fund transportation programs has decreased the past few years due to rising fuel costs forcing drivers to drive less. 9. The state's roads are already not in the best shape. Just like it has effected all of our pocketbooks, rising fuel costs have driven up costs of construction projects. Contractors that MDOT hires have charged higher rates due to the cost of operating machinery and increased cost of building materials (remember, asphalt is oil based too). Every year, MDOT loses more and more buying power due to rising inflation, thus it can do less and less work. 10. I forgot to address the "build roads like the Europeans do" comment. MDOT currently has a stretch of I-75 in Oakland county that is built to the European standard. It is only a mile or so long. Right now it is an experimental pavements project that MDOT is testing. It cost roughly double what a normal reconstruction job would have. MDOT is testing it as a comparison to see how it holds up to determine its cost effectiveness. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 37 Registered: 12-2006 |
Detroit Planner, The US has the largest road network in the world. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2265 Registered: 10-2004 |
Duh! But where's the #2 in the post above? As George Carlin would say, "Musta been BAD!" | ||
Kenp Member Username: Kenp Post Number: 181 Registered: 03-2006 |
#2 We should lower the gas tax. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 862 Registered: 04-2006 |
El Jim, thats what I figured, I just wanted to be safe. China is adding roads like Detroit is adding empty houses. | ||
El_jimbo Member Username: El_jimbo Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2006 |
haha...I was re-ordering things and I messed up the numbering. Kenp, I have no problems lowering the gas tax...if you are willing to pay for the monthly front end alignments I will need on those crappy roads. | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 945 Registered: 12-2005 |
Of the 50 states,Michigan allows the heaviest trucks to roll on its roads. Look at any asphalt paved road near an interstate ramp, or leading from the ramps to an industrial area. Those heavy ruts you and I drive our passenger cars in and out of aren't being caused by us. The truckers have a very strong lobby, though. I don't see the maximum weight allowed to decrease anytime soon. Many of the weight stations I drive by are unattended--closed. Why bother having them if you allow the heaviest trucks in the nation to tear up your roads? | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 177 Registered: 11-2004 |
Which is even more reason to up the diesel tax. Very well stated post El_jimbo. | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2412 Registered: 11-2003 |
Scalehouses don't work, 56packman, because we already know where they are. Stepped up mobile enforcement is much more effective that a fixed location. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 497 Registered: 06-2006 |
Edit: wrong thread... (Message edited by thejesus on January 31, 2007) | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 463 Registered: 05-2005 |
All current roads should be repaired and in top shape before ONE PENNY IS SPENT ON NEW ROAD CONSTRUCTION. So, NO TO THE TAX. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 906 Registered: 04-2006 |
Future, the current level of funding won't even keep the roads we have in good repair. As the area empties out, congestion will become less of a problem. The will reduce the need to widen roads. If you think about it, no major roads have been built with the gas tax around here for a long time; the last being M-5 extension. Roads in subdivisions are built by the developers. We already have shrinking gas tax revenues with increased prices for materials (why do you think the scrappers are so dammed busy?). | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 320 Registered: 04-2006 |
SEMCOG stated in SEMscope that if we raised the gas tax by just 3 cents a gallon, we could restore all transportation funds to reconnect all the buses back together and fix the roads. I'm all for this, if mass transit gets it's fair ten percent. I'd rather pay $2.22 a gallon then $2.19 a gallon and then drive on smooth roads and have SMART come back to Livonia. I want to debate those who oppose a gas tax increase so I can save SMART and help bring back downtown Detroit. In my opinion, I think the downtown needs good frequent, safe, seven day a week public bus service, which some of you might already know. As some of you know, I'm from Livonia and I have another opinion and that is that if the suburbs don't care about Detroit then it's only a matter of time that the inner suburbs will decline and become slums. In fact, there is now evidence that as parts of Detroit are coming back that we are seeing some suburban areas decline in economic terms. Take a drive along Plymouth Road in Livonia and see the empty stores. Take a drive along Vernor in southwest Detroit and see the many stores full with shoppers. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 321 Registered: 04-2006 |
In addition, to my post. I want it in writing that we can and will fix existing roads and mass transit first. If it's not in writing them, I'm voting NO. The expansion of freeways by shutting down the SMART buses in Livonia is not SMART, but instead very STUPID, in my opinion. | ||
Bibs Member Username: Bibs Post Number: 665 Registered: 10-2003 |
I found this report on WXYZ's website. MICHIGAN'S DEFINING MOMENT - Report of the Emergency Financial Advisory Board http://web.wxyz.com/pdf/emerge ncyfinancialpanelreport.pdf |
