 
Doctors
Member
Username: Doctors
Post Number: 707
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 30, 2007 - 11:27 pm: |    |
What would the prospects for intra-city commuter bus service be in this area?
I was recently thinking about my trip to NYC, and the Port Authority Bus Terminal (NJ Transit), and seeing the huge crowds getting to their busses and going home.
I know that the main goal for this area is rail, but what about extensive long and short distance busses, on fixed and frequent schedules, between city and suburbs, that could be in place before the rail system, and compliment the rail system once it's in place? |
Focusonthed
Member
Username: Focusonthed
Post Number: 793
Registered: 02-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 12:44 am: | |
Sooooo...what's SMART? |
Jt1
Member
Username: Jt1
Post Number: 8227
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 12:53 am: | |
The opposite of stupid.
(Message edited by jt1 on January 31, 2007) |
Doctors
Member
Username: Doctors
Post Number: 709
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 8:48 am: | |
SMART is suburban bus service.
I am talking about dedicated commuter bus service. Not a slow uncomfortable city bus route that could stretch twenty miles and take you two hours to get to work.
Think more in terms of Greyhound or NJ Transit, than SMART or DDOT.
As a matter of fact, the state could contract with Greyhound to provide test service on routes like...
Ann Arbor-Metro Airport-Detroit
Pontiac-Detroit
Mt. Clemens- Detroit
Howell- Detroit
Howell-Ann Arbor
Downriver-Detroit
Novi-Detroit
Plymouth-Detroit
and many others, including suburb to suburb commuting.
This service could utilize the new Greyhound Station downtown. |
Danny
Member
Username: Danny
Post Number: 5454
Registered: 02-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 9:06 am: | |
Fascist Livonia has a its own commuter bus service. I'm not sure when it's effective to their own community. I didn't see any around there. |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 901
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 9:10 am: | |
Do the casino buses count? They have a regular route! |
1953
Member
Username: 1953
Post Number: 1278
Registered: 12-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 9:13 am: | |
Such service might be part of the mayor's light transit on Woodward plan, to be announced in the upcoming state of the city address. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 339
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 10:41 am: | |
If Detroit were to do something like the NJ Transit bus system I think it should initially be targeted to the more outlying areas of the region. Like maybe a line from Flint, Monroe County/Toledo, the Lansing area, and maybe Windsor all going into a dedicated bus terminal in the downtown area. What makes the NJ Transit buses so popular is that people can park and ride into NYC and avoid the cost and hassle of parking and the traffic headache. The Port Authority is also well integrated into internal NYC modes of transit since it has a dedicated subway station and is connected directly to the Times Square subway station. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 132
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 11:07 am: | |
SMART has a very few park-and-ride routes which are the kind of service I think Doctors is talking about. It would be better with better Greyhound-style buses but it exists. Until the mid 1980s there were many more such routes, including for instance Port Huron to Detroit, but they were victims of a budget cut.
The quickest and easiest way to implement such a thing might well be to contract with Trailways or Greyhound. All it takes is money 
Of course, unlike NY/NJ, if you bring someone into downtown Detroit on a commuter bus, they still are faced with the unpleasant task of getting to their exact destination since our rapid transit is not adequate. If you are near a PeopleMover station, and the commuter bus stops near a station, then you're OK; otherwise, not so much.
Professor Scott |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 2096
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 11:16 am: | |
We have a few different commuter bus systems in DC. Most of them service outlying suburbs beyond the reach of Metro and not served well by commuter rail.
Since we don't have a centralized bus terminal (a la PANYNJ), most of these buses seem to make several stops in the downtown area in order to serve different job hubs. For example, a route coming from Maryland might stop on Capitol Hill, then downtown, the State Department, and end at the Pentagon. A similar approach in Detroit could have buses servicing both New Center and the CBD (perhaps at the Ren Cen). |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 133
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 3:43 pm: | |
I think Dan has hit the nail on the head here. In the D, perhaps a combination of bus-PeopleMover connected routes and multi-stop buses where it makes sense. Nice work Dan. |
Chitaku
Member
Username: Chitaku
Post Number: 1087
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 3:46 pm: | |
i take everything from the "mayor's" lol office with a grain of salt |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 2097
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 4:14 pm: | |
^Ultimately, I think commuter rail would be more cost-effective and safer, especially with Michigan's winters, and should be implemented where it can. The commuter buses can work, though. They just won't be able to carry as many people, or spur TOD. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 135
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 5:27 pm: | |
Light rail creates TOD far in advance of commuter rail; there is no evidence that any kind of bus service creates any TOD at all.
IMHO we need all three, in different places. They will take different amounts of time to implement. For now we do what we can with buses; soon we will have one commuter rail corridor; hopefully some day a mix of all three. |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 903
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 31, 2007 - 7:15 pm: | |
Professor Scott,
Actually the movement from SEMTA to SMART sort of threw out the Blue Water portion of SEMTA. The new structure had no place for them, so they became a countywide service for St. Clair.
A similar thing happened with Lake Erie Transit in Monroe, though SMART is still heavily involved with LET operations. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 137
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 12:57 am: | |
Detroitplanner,
What it meant for Port Huron though is that it is completely isolated from the rest of SEMCOG's service area if you don't have a car. You can get from Flint to Detroit via bus (MTA and SMART), from Ann Arbor to Detroit via Amtrak, but you can't get from Port Huron to Detroit at all. I live in St. Clair County and work in the metro Detroit area, and we might as well be on another planet out here. |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 912
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 9:36 am: | |
Don't you mean SMART's service area? St Clair is part of SEMCOG. There is no connection between AA and SMART now either nor Livingston Transit and SMART.
I guess I don't get your entire point. I do know however that with the growth in the southern part of St. Clair County that Blue Water has been starting to think about providing a connecting service along M-29 to link into SMART at Gratiot/New Baltimore and provide additional mobility within the County. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 138
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 01, 2007 - 10:57 pm: | |
I meant SEMCOG. If you live in Port Huron (part of the SEMCOG planning region) and want to get to Wayne, Oakland or Macomb Counties (other parts of the SEMCOG planning region), you absolutely must have a car.
You can get from AA to Detroit via Amtrak or Greyhound - not wildly convenient, granted, but not impossible. I agree, Livingston County is equally isolated; Greyhound goes through there but does not stop. Greyhound never enters St. Clair County from or to anywhere, and on Amtrak you can only get from Port Huron to Flint.
I wasn't talking just about local transit buses connecting to SMART or DDOT, I was making the point that you simply can't get to anywhere in the rest of the region by any means except private car.
With regard to Blue Water Transit, I would like to see such a thing, but I don't know how to move the process along. BWT's fixed routes only cover Port Huron and the immediate area around it, at least for now. |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 917
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 12:07 am: | |
Well you could take the Amtrak to Battle Creek and transfer ..... OR Take it to Flint and Transfer onto the MTA....
I see your point. However it is not feasible to run city buses through farm fields. If there was more work trips between the two areas maybe a train would be a good idea, but not many people live in Port Huron and commute along the corridor between Detroit and home. Most work locally. Those that do leave may work in Lapeer (outside of the region), or perhaps to Auburn Hills, Sterling Heights or some other suburb.
You might want to bug your local officials to support the Blue Water Millage, that would get you additional service. OR you could suggest that they link back into the SMART program similar to how Monroe is. I'm willing to bet either option would not be seen as being polically popular.
That is the reason why Marysville is not serviced, they do not pay into the millage.
Blue Water Transit runs a great program.
* They have a tourist trolley for weekends,
* a bus that links downtown with strip mall city out in For Gratiot,
* the largest percentage of CNG buses in the State (only one with a goal to have all buses CNG),
* first agency in State to have bike racks on all their buses.
For a small operator, they do a great job. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 139
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 12:37 am: | |
I agree, but I'm familiar with the local economy in St. Clair County. People in the southern half of the County are, economically, linked to metro Detroit more than to Port Huron, but are not connected to either by transit.
Port Huron actually has very high unemployment these days. Really, the entire County is hurting economically.
There used to be transit between the downriver communities in St. Clair County and Port Huron, and between those communities and metro Detroit. SEMTA ran a commuter bus service until the early 1980s from Port Huron to Detroit, and Greyhound connected communities in this area until perhaps the late 1970s.
With a dearth of good-paying jobs, and no transportation options whatever except private cars (for people who, more and more, can't afford them), the southern half of the County appears to me to be dying. |
Detroitplanner
Member
Username: Detroitplanner
Post Number: 920
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 9:52 am: | |
Just wait for Manny to build his bridge, then downriver will have nothing to worry about! |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 318
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 10:20 pm: | |
If everyone stops shopping in Livonia until we opt back into SMART, we can kill two birds with one stone.
Wal-Mart and the greedy Livonia City Council members who voted themselves pay raises by shutting down the buses and not lowering taxes. We now get less and pay more because without SMART we have fewer travel options.
Wal-Mart will be forced to pay the workers a decent paycheck that is enough to ride a SMART bus and City Council will be forced to give up pay raises which will allow the Wal-Mart workers to move to Livonia and nearby Detroit.
Then the buses will be full again. Just like the one's on the SMART Middlebelt 285 bus route before November 27, 2006.
Is anyone game for a boycott Livonia campaign until we opt. back into SMART? |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 467
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 10:51 pm: | |
I h ave already said Detroit should start a express bus service between city and suburbs before all these rail plans get put into place.
I was just in Quebec City over the weekend, and even Quebec with only a metro pop of 750,000 has express bus service from all suburban districts to the centre of the city during peak hours. And ontop of that they have a limited stop bus service along their main road. The limited stop bus service is within walking distance of 40% of the metropolitan population and work locations.
Detroit needs something like that, and then we can work on rail. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 468
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 02, 2007 - 10:58 pm: | |
I h ave already said Detroit should start a express bus service between city and suburbs before all these rail plans get put into place.
I was just in Quebec City over the weekend, and even Quebec with only a metro pop of 750,000 has express bus service from all suburban districts to the centre of the city during peak hours. And ontop of that they have a limited stop bus service along their main road. The limited stop bus service is within walking distance of 40% of the metropolitan population and work locations.
Detroit needs something like that, and then we can work on rail.
Some key points from the Quebec METROBUS route, which is the rapid bus route through the spine of the region. Many feeder buses run throughout the region connecting to METROBUS.
-Métrobus operates seven days a week from 5:30 a.m. (6 on Sundays) to 1 a.m., with a late service Fridays and Saturdays
-A high-frequency Métrobus service operating mainly on reserved bus lanes, serves the major activity centres. Almost 40% of citizens and employers and 73% of post-secondary educational institutions stand within
800 m of a Métrobus route;
-The Métrobus lines perform better than standard buses. They also have the largest ridership, with about 93 boarding per client-service hour, compared to 70 for the regular and 54 for the Express services.
-A Couche-tard (late-night) service for some routes on Friday and Saturday nights from downtown to all suburban districts.
-The average frequency of the service varies by route, from 2 to 4 minutes during rush period, 5 to 10 minutes at off-peak times and 7 to 15 minutes on evenings and weekends.
-The METROBUS route alone carries over 50,000 riders a day. More then some LRT networks.
-The success of the Métrobus shows that there is a high demand for such a service. The Métrobus could be seen as a first step towards implementation of the Tramway, a significantly more expensive yet much more efficient mode of transportation thanks to higher capacities and greater speed – and more structuring in terms of urban planning.
-Thanks to the Métrobus’s high speed and frequency, its routes serve clients from a much greater distance than regular services. People are willing to walk greater distances to get to the service. A transfer in the customer base has been observed, sometimes resulting in less ridership in more peripheral routes – an effect the RTC was not expecting. |
Trainman
Member
Username: Trainman
Post Number: 323
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 3:08 pm: | |
I agree with the above post that without good bus service that rail is a waste of time and limited tax dollars in this area. But, there are still those that think that rail will fix our bus system. It won't.
Why should Livonia pay for the AA to Detroit rail for example? We will just jump on the freeways and use our cars. For sure, rail is very nice to have. I think that if we want rail then we should improve our existing bus service first. Or, the answer is NO for the next transit tax increase from me.
The transit advocates want to have rail, so if they can get the buses back and keep them I will support a reasonable tax. But, if there are no connecting buses then I just think it will benefit too few people to justify any kind of regional tax. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 469
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 3:30 pm: | |
A quality bus service I think is the best start tword future rail service in Detroit. Look at the success another transit system has had by just offering better bus service. The following news is from the STO, which provides public transit service to the Gatineau, Quebec side of the Ottawa Metropolitan area. STO only runs buses, and carries just a little more people each day then SMART in Detroit. STO services a pop of over 200,000 residents.
------------------------------ ----
EXCEPTIONAL RIDERSHIP FOR THE STO
Gatineau, Wednesday, January 31, 2007 – The Société de transport de l'Outaouais (STO) ended 2006 with the largest rise in ridership in the last five years, posting an increase of 5.6%. In 2005, this annual growth was 3.8%.
"This is exceptional performance," stated Louise Poirier, the STO's Chairwoman. "Once again, with this ridership, the STO is a leader among the other public transit corporations in Quebec, and is one of the most successful public transit undertakings of its size in the country. The efforts being made by the STO and the City of Gatineau in their desire to improve the public transit services offered to the public are paying off," she added.
This significant increase can be attributed partly to the revision of services that started in 2005 with a restructuring of the bus network in the Hull sector, followed by a complete revision of the Gatineau network in 2006. The STO will continue to pursue this direction by revising the network in the Aylmer sector in 2007. These major improvements are in addition to the occasional increases in service along certain routes, especially during peak periods. Together, these improvements represent an investment of over $4 million.
The STO ended 2006 with close to 17,500,000 trips on its buses. In 2007, the STO aims to increase its ridership by 3% over 2006 levels to bring this number to 18,000,000 trips.
HIGHLIGHT OF SERVICE IMPROVMENTS THAT STARTED IN 2006
-Direct Gatineau-Hull-Aylmer crosstown link
-One express bus route per neighbourhood
-Better neighbourhood service
-Extended service hours during evenings and weekends
-Improved service to academic institutions, the CHVO, CLSCs, shopping centres and the downtown area of the Gatineau sector
-Greater use of the reserved lanes in the Gréber/Fournier corridor for faster travel
time
-Improved travel times
-Increased service to the park-and-ride facilities in the Gatineau sector
-------
That people is what must be done in Metro Detroit. You need a total reworking of the entire bus network. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 470
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 3:35 pm: | |
Here is another great story of ridership growth that can be attained by just restructuring bus service and providing better quality service.
---
Brampton Transit Tops 10 Million Riders, Leads Canada in Transit Growth
BRAMPTON – Brampton Transit has broken all previous records; welcoming its 10 millionth rider in December 2006 and leading growth in transit use across Canada with a 12.4 per cent increase over 2005.
“Our growth in ridership is a result of council's commitment and investment in Brampton Transit with new buses, greater accessibility, increased service and a stronger customer focus.”
Brampton Transit ridership growth is about four times the national average, according to statistics from the Canadian Urban Transit Association (CUTA). Last year, there were 10,139,107 Brampton Transit riders, a 12.4 per cent increase over 2005.
This 12.4 per cent increase in ridership follows a 30-per-cent increase in service hours in 2004 and 2005.
Suzanne Bass, the City’s Director of Transit, said the City has responded to customer feedback and has made significant service changes. “The community has requested increase levels of transit service, and the City has reacted to these requests over the past two years,” she said.
In 2005, Brampton Transit increased service by about 25 per cent through a new grid-based route system. The service change altered 22 of the existing 30 routes with additional routes added to serve riders better. A total of 51 growth buses have been added to the Brampton Transit fleet since 2004 that have been utilized to introduce these service increases and the new low-floor buses has resulted in Brampton Transit being able to increase its accessible service to 58 per cent of its total trips.
“We are thrilled to reach the 10 millionth rider milestone, and will continue to enhance Brampton Transit service to meet customer needs for the next 10 million riders.” |
Jams
Member
Username: Jams
Post Number: 4702
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, February 03, 2007 - 3:56 pm: | |
Miketoronto's statement:
quote:A quality bus service I think is the best start tword future rail service in Detroit
Amen.
Before trains, BRTs, expansion of the People Mover, or any expenditures on new technologies, make what we have work efficiently and desirable to use on a day-to-day basis. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 141
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 04, 2007 - 11:27 pm: | |
Mike,
Métrobus is operating "mainly on reserved bus lanes", as you said, and this is no doubt part of the reason for their success. This would be pretty difficult to implement in metro Detroit, I think. (Or at least, not much easier than to implement light rail.)
Also, all the cities we're talking about have regional populations and physical sizes much smaller than that of metro Detroit.
I'm totally in favor of improved bus service and I also agree that any rail mode will be less than fully successful if not completely integrated into the existing transportation network. But no metropolitan area the size or population of metro Detroit has a bus-only transit system; every other metropolitan region of our size or larger has multi-mode transit including rapid transit.
I fail to see why metro Detroit should continue to barely struggle along with, among other things, North America's worst big-city transit system. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 471
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 9:35 am: | |
The thing is that it does not mean Detroit is not going to get rail.
But right now the bus system is crap. And I am sorry, but a little commuter line to Ann Arbor is not going to even make a dent in the transit problems of Detroit.
But you know what will? Buses running to all points of the metro region with good service. Then people will actually be able to get to work.
Once the buses are working, then you work on rail.
But right now the major issue is quality bus service to get people to work. Not a limited service commuter rail line that is only going to serve people who don't feel like driving into the city.
The other cities mentioned may have been smaller, but they also have one thing that Metro Detroit a much larger city does not. And that is bus service within walking distance of all metropolitan residents, with seven day a week service that runs from early morning till late at night.
All the cities improving bus service have plans for future LRT lines once they have built up the ridership and have quality bus service running to all residents. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 145
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 10:18 am: | |
Can't argue with that
Our only difference is in the prioritization. I think you can't have quality transit in a region this large without RT of some kind. I also agree Ann Arbor won't "solve the problem", but it is a start.
We are too sprawled, and our bus systems too underfunded, for the kind of quality service most other cities enjoy. The entire region can't have excellent service; the City and inner suburbs perhaps one day can. |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 2103
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 10:45 am: | |
Miketoronto, you keep reiterating the need for better bus service. What, in your opinion, constitutes better bus service? I agree that the current systems in Detroit need work, but what steps can be made to improve what already exists?
A huge part of the problem is that in Detroit, unlike other metropolitan areas, buses are called upon to make rather lengthy (read: costly and inefficient) trips. SMART's average trip is something like 11 miles, which is the longest in the nation. By comparison, Washington Metrobus, which complements a well-developed rail system, has an average trip of about 4 miles. Never mind that buses are far slower than rail modes, with average speeds about half that of light-rail, and roughly a third that of commuter rail. If I'm not mistaken, the idea is to get people to work on transit without the trip lasting 2+ hours each way.
Yes, there are things that can be done now to improve existing service, but they need not be done in a vacuum. Rail can, and should, be planned and executed while existing bus services are made more efficient, to the extent possible without rail service. |
Iheartthed
Member
Username: Iheartthed
Post Number: 356
Registered: 04-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 10:51 am: | |
I think a better bus system will follow an implementation of a train system. The reason (that I think) express buses from traditional suburb to city won't work is because it's too convenient to just drive your own car already. There isn't a major traffic problem in the city, parking is pretty affordable and pretty plentiful, and there aren't many places in the metro area where it's an incredibly long commute into the city. Running an express bus from the outlying areas would easier link the outlying communities self-sustaining communities (like Toledo, Jackson, Flint) with the city and make it more convenient for people to commute from those areas. As long as gas is affordable and traffic is bearable there will be little incentive for a person in Troy to take an express bus into the city over driving his/her own car.
On the other hand, a train system between Ann Arbor and Detroit will immediately serve two purposes. It will link travelers to the airport (which is desperately needed, believe it or not) and it will link students (who primarily don't have cars) at U-M to the city. Also, since that segment between Ann Arbor and Detroit is one of the most underdeveloped segments of that metro area, a transit line would help to spur development along that corridor. |
Miketoronto
Member
Username: Miketoronto
Post Number: 472
Registered: 07-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 12:17 pm: | |
Danindc, the steps that should be taken to improve the bus system are as follows.
-FREQUENT BUS SERVICE program along major corridors in Metro Detroit, where riders will not have to wait more then 15min for a bus seven days a week. Areas that could see a service like this are Van Dyke, Gratiot, Grand River, Jefferson.
-WOODWARD RAPID ZONE bus service, where riders get limited stop and local service along Woodward, with service every 15min or better seven days a week. Special paint and bus stop design on Woodward.
-LIMITED STOP/EXPRESS bus service to get city residents to farther out suburban jobs, and suburban residents from select transit centres to downtown Detroit, Wayne State University, etc and other transit centres in the region.
-LOCAL BUS SERVICE FOR ALL RESIDENTS, using a combination of fixed route service and quality Dial-Ride service in outlying suburban districts, where fixed route service outside of the main roads would not work well.
Over 90% of the population should be within a 5min walk or less of seven day a week bus service.
-SERVICE STANDARDS, where bus riders are guaranteed that most bus routes if not all will run every 30min or better seven days a week.
-UNIQUE SERVICE IMPROVMENTS like timed transfers at transit centres, UPASS program for university students, etc.
----
Iheartthed you would be surprised how many people will park and ride a bus, even with no traffic
I work for the commuter bus and train system here in Toronto, and I have customers everyday who call in wanting to park and catch an express bus not only to downtown, but also to other suburban destinations that have ample free parking.
I am always surprised when someone will phone and say they want to park at Langstaff and ride the express bus to Square One(a suburban mall), even in off peak hours when traffic is light, and the trip only like a half hour ride if that.
Provide the service and people will use it. Hell on weekends it is so easy to get into downtown Toronto by car and only pay like 5 bucks for parking, yet we get people parking and riding like for the express bus service we offer from the suburbs on weekends into downtown.
(Message edited by miketoronto on February 05, 2007) |
Danindc
Member
Username: Danindc
Post Number: 2106
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 12:41 pm: | |
^I largely agree with your proposals, Miketoronto, but none of those is a prerequisite for rail service, which can be developed concurrently. |
Professorscott
Member
Username: Professorscott
Post Number: 146
Registered: 12-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 1:14 pm: | |
I think Danindc's point - the buses have to cover too large an area - is where RT fits in. If you have reasonably fast, reasonably frequent RT of any kind, then the buses can serve the purpose of connecting destinations to the RT (over fairly short distances) rather than connecting all destinations to each other. Hub-and-spoke is the way all efficient transportation of every kind works everywhere, and RT would be the "hub" of the regional transit network.
An excellent bus route in a big city is one that comes every 10 minutes (or more frequently) so you don't have to look at a schedule in order to catch the bus. We can argue the detail that I chose the number ten, but frequency is of the utmost importance. The suburban once-per-hour routes are an impediment to casual use: you have to be an expert to ride the system.
DDOT has several high-frequency routes but they serve only the City and their travel times are high because of the distances they cover. (U of D to downtown is about 45 minutes by bus, ten by car though not this year, for instance.)
I think RT and a smart re-think of the bus routes in the corridors serviced by RT are the steps to get to an excellent system overall. My fellow wizards and I came up with a three-line RT corridor plan that provided within-five-mile service to the vast majority of the tri-county population. |
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