Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 Perception is the problem Previous Next
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2099
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 9:13 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070205/M ETRO/702050361
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1953
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Username: 1953

Post Number: 1288
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 9:25 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So sad. RIP.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2104
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 10:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't feed the troll.
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Milwaukee
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Username: Milwaukee

Post Number: 728
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 11:00 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Perception? People have a bad perception of Detroit because of stuff like this.

They should have a bad perception of Detroit! People getting fucking killed on the job!

Not to mention this was a white guy from the suburbs probably killed by a black guy. This is just going to give some reason to families to stay away from the city.

This is sad. The fucking idiot who killed this guy should have thought about what he was going to do to his family, his race, and his community.
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Dds
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Username: Dds

Post Number: 120
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 11:05 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sounds more like sad reality than perception.
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Thatgirl
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Username: Thatgirl

Post Number: 7
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 11:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Not to mention this was a white guy from the suburbs probably killed by a black guy."

Whoa, nothing like a racist generalization to start off the week...
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2105
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 11:38 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, we all know that all crime happens in Detroit and nowhere else but Detroit. Other cities never have shit like this happen.

It sucks, but it happens. Give it up, "citylover".
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 1347
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 12:03 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm sorry, but why get mad at citylover for posting the article? It happened, didn't it?
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Spiritofdetroit
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Username: Spiritofdetroit

Post Number: 252
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 12:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

*waiting for SS to find a newspaper deliverer or postman thats been murdered in Chicago to justify this one*
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2103
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 6:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I posted this because I have read numerous time on this forum how "perception" is the problem in Detroit it really aint that bad. I am a victim although I don't feel victimized of a perception problem here.I have revealed a less than stellar past.I even revealed that Detroit was one of the places where I practiced my undesirable behavior.Yet I have not been that person for well over fifteen years.But the perception from some of the forumers is that I am still that person_ that is a perception problem.

Now we don't know the circumstances of this murder that I linked.But if it is a hold-up murder as it appears how can we expect anyone to feel safe? How much money can a newspaper guy have? And who in the hell is out robbing and shooting somone in this dangerous weather? The perception matches the reality.

SS has started a running count of all the murders in Detroit for 2007.I don't know if he will be able to count them all.On the firejerry.com website the claim is there are siginficantly more killings then are known by the public.
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 3753
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 6:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OMG a crime happened in Detroit!?

Damn let me start looking for housing in safer areas like Chicago, Miami, New York, or LA!
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Cmubryan
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Username: Cmubryan

Post Number: 365
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 6:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not just a crime, a murder! Worse yet, a random act of violence!

That type of dismissive attitude by certain people is the problem.

How many murders or how much violence is it going to take to say enough is enough?

Detroit_stylin, you might be trying to display sarcasm with that post about moving to "safer areas like Chicago, Miami, New York, or LA." But sadly all of these named cities are much safer!

If you were trying to display sarcasm maybe your sentence would read "safer areas like St. Louis, Newark, Flint, or Gary!"

Do we really want to be in the same category as any of these cities?
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 11211
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 6:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe there have been 18 murders to date. At this rate we will be below 200 murders for the year! Homicides will be down nearly 50% and CL is gonna throw us one helluva party. Yay CL!
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Spiritofdetroit
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Username: Spiritofdetroit

Post Number: 255
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 7:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This site (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C rime_in_Detroit,_Michigan#_ref -4) claims that an email from DPD on January 7, 2007 listed 487 homicides in 2006.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2104
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 7:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I hope you don't really think that because there have been (by your unofficial count) eighteen murders so far that that is an indication of anything.How many murders were there last year at this time?When was the eighteenth murder last year? How many people shot and then die later are counted as murders? Howmany people shot in 06 and die in 07 are counted? Simply put your theory is flawed.

I would be impressed if I read or watched or heard some sort of mandate from the Mayor et,al on how crime was to be the number one focus of his administration.Then I might believe that murders have a chance of going down significantly.But as things are now whatever fluctuation there is is purely chance.
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 1010
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 7:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Yes, we all know that all crime happens in Detroit and nowhere else but Detroit. Other cities never have shit like this happen.

It sucks, but it happens. Give it up, "citylover".



what a repugnant attitude, danindc. it's disgusting that you think crime is so prevalent, that when it happens in detroit - it's not noteworthy. you are either bleached by the media, or devoid of compassion, to think that a murder in any neighborhood is standard, commonplace, or even acceptable.

your attitude shows that you have very little attachment to detroit as a community - or, you believe murder is a necessary component of detroit, and desperately hope others will come to accept that fact.
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 3755
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 7:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thecarl, it wasnt so much as an attitude that its a given that it happens in Detroit, but more so cityhater's attitude that this is the ONLY place that it happens at.

That is what Dan (although could have done better) was getting at.
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 1011
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 7:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I believe there have been 18 murders to date. At this rate we will be below 200 murders for the year! Homicides will be down nearly 50% and CL is gonna throw us one helluva party. Yay CL!



two at cheli's
two at the zoo bar
one to eliminate a potential zoo bar witness
one gulf war vet cashing a check
one citizen cashing a check

7 murders in 2007 that got press. what are the other 11?
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Spiritofdetroit
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Username: Spiritofdetroit

Post Number: 256
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 7:27 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Newspaper deliverer, got press.
Shooting outside a club this morning; in the press.

Theyve all got at least a little blurb
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Citylover
Member
Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2105
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 7:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nope Stylin my point has been fr a very long time that crime has been and continues to be Detroits biggest problem. As I said before I have read many timees on this forum how if only people realized that their perception was wrong they would see what a great place Detroit is.I am simply debunking that myth. People perceive Detroit as crime ridden and dangerous because it is crime ridden and dangerous.

I live near Detroit.That is why I comment on Detroit.I have never ever said or written that it only happens in Detroit.I did not really think that would be neccesary.
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Thecarl
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Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 1012
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 7:53 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

stylin, thank you for your concern.

i just returned from a weekend in flint, touring the old neighborhoods where i'd spent a lot of time.

i saw homes where i'd lived, met with friends, and made new friends. many of these familiar places were abandoned, desolate, and standing vacant with boarded entrances, with curtains flapping outside broken windows.

the absence of civility was eerie. it's hard to imagine a neighborhood you once thought safe is now lawless.

it's harder yet to accept anybody's notion that such lawlessness and abandon is a "big city thing."
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Detroit_stylin
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Username: Detroit_stylin

Post Number: 3757
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 7:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

UMmm CL i dont consider a city 25 mins away really 'near' enough to call themselves an expert on the everyday happenings here aside from what they read in a snooze paper, or hear on tv...
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2106
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 8:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't intend to be argumentative (do you?) but I never claimed to be an "expert" though I am uncertain any expertise is needed.I don't think you are implying what I read in the paper is untrue because that is easily refuted by the facts; i.e. this poor guy really was murdered in Detroit. So I am not really sure what your point is.

As for my living near Detroit I should have explained that if I lived near Chicago or Miami or Seattle or some other city I would be commenting on those cities.
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 1348
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Monday, February 05, 2007 - 8:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What, and Danindc is sooo much more relevant?
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2115
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 10:44 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^?

For those who don't know, citylover has a history of blaming all of Detroit's decline squarely on crime. Most of us know there are many other factors involved.

At the same time, many other cities--and suburbs-- experience crime too, but citylover never reconciles this with his theory on Detroit's decline.

It's quite unfortunate that this person was murdered. The real problem IS the murder itself, though, and not the image. Trying to address image control in the wake of a murder is like trying to fix a company by boosting the price of its stock. Take care of the root problem, and the image takes care of itself.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2110
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 12:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Enough murders and you have an image problem. What I contend is crime has been the biggest detriment to Detroit and the biggest thing that prevents real revival is failure to significantly reduce crime.Of course I don't blame everything on crime.

I don't believe any other city has had the intractable crime problem Detroit has. Imo the root problem is crime.Take care of the root problem and the image takes care of itself
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Susanarosa
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Username: Susanarosa

Post Number: 1353
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 12:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan my response was to the previous poster who was telling citylover that his opinion was irrelevant since he lives in Ann Arbor.

That, of course, made me question why he would think that what you read in the paper and see on tv about Detroit would make your opinion so much more relevant.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8256
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 1:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

CL - You are missing one major point.

Much of the 'perception' talk by people on these boards revolve around downtown and midtown. While not representative of the city many try to point out that the image of distinct areas are incorrect.

People in SE Michigan seem to think there is an even distribution of crime throughout the city which is inaccurate. The city has some good areas, some bad areas and some outright horrible areas.

A lot on here tend to concentrate on the good areas. That may not be right but it is also not right to think that crime and probability of being a victim is the same anywhere in the city.
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Firstandten
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Username: Firstandten

Post Number: 73
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 1:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

unfortunately perception = reality for many of us.When you think of murders we probably don't get the half of it. I bet we don't know the real murder rate. Unless you have multiple killings or a "somebody" gets killed you won't see it on TV or read about it in the papers. I bet there is at least a murder a day in this city at the low end. That would give us 365 murders that you don't hear about and then add on the murders that made the media.

Given all of the murders and crime this is only the symptom and not the root cause of Detroit's problem.
As a people it is always easier to attack the symptom than to look at the root cause because attacking the root cause is not easy and takes time.

Two examples are when Detroit had the high murder rates which had people talking about Detroit being the murder capital. Many of the murders where the results of drug wars going on at the time. The crime was masking the real problem (not the drugs, the drugs was masking the root cause of lack of economic development in the city)

The other is devils night the crazy firebombing of homes and garages was masking the fact that owners had homes they couldn't sell and were worth less than what they owe on it, hence the insurance scams

Its a lot easier to attack the symptom and proclaim the problem solved.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5486
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 06, 2007 - 3:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crazy-folks in the ghetto want to kill someone for no reason at all.
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Ray
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Username: Ray

Post Number: 846
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 1:57 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmmm... to those who poo-poo the effect of crime on the city's fortunes, I would point out that the boomlet of housing and redevelopment downtown seems to coincide with the significant drop in crime starting in the early 1990's.

Crime or at least fear of crime towers wildly as the primary reason for disinvestment and exodus from the city. It's just perposterous not to admit this fact.

I lived in middle of major cities like Chicago, DC and SF for 20 years and during that time had a bike stolen that I foolishly left unlocked overnight in front of my apartment. In 20 years, that's it. My sole personal experience with crime.

The litany of breakins and car thefts, and vandalism that I hear from people who live in Detroit makes me shudder. Plus you have this unresponsive and inept police department. It's a huge problem. People can live with traffic, noise, taxes, all kinds of inconveniences in urban life. But they will not tolerate high levels of violent crime.

Danindc, your candy ass professional friends who live in Georgetown or Kalorama wouldn't put up with Detroit and its blight and crime for one day and you know it.
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Thames
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Username: Thames

Post Number: 3
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 9:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Add another murder to your tally(whoever it is that is counting) because a 13 year-old boy was murdered early this morning.
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Blort
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Username: Blort

Post Number: 6
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 3:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What's with all the Citylover bashing for posting this article? It's a revelant article.

-Citylover never once claimed that crime "only happens in Detroit".

-This crime is something that happened in Detroit. This is a Detroit message board. Not that hard to comprehend.

-Everyone knows crime happens everywhere, but this is a DETROIT board. Posting an article about something that happened in Chicago wouldn't make much sense.
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Docmo
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Username: Docmo

Post Number: 220
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 4:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm out with a bunch of 50 year old friends from Ann Arbor skiing in Utah. By far, their most significant concern for me living downtown is my safety. How can I walk the streets at night? Am I getting a CWP? I know a woman who has easy access to pepper spray and other self defense items--you should call her. Senseless murders like the Detnews carrier will only strengthen the perception of those who already feel that way.

My contention that the CBD is quite safe and vibrant often falls on unreceptive ears. The fact that I do live here has made a significant impression on many of my friends though. Maybe the perception of a vibrant Downtown with another successful Winter Blast is closer to fruition than the usual crime ridden pit many suburbanites carry. Probably not.
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Tomoh
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Username: Tomoh

Post Number: 284
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 5:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

News stories of crimes are like anecdotal evidence. You're trying to say that now that this crime happened, it is now more likely that you will be a victim of a crime when going to the Winter Blast. Of course that is a ridiculous conclusion but it is the one that many will take away from such shallowness. It is clear that Citylover is just attempting to perpetuate this.

Similarly posting articles about murders in Chicago (the city I call home) would be different in many ways. For one, there are hundreds more murders each year in Chicago than in Detroit but Chicago and Detroit maintain very different and inaccurate perceptions in the public's mind. In Chicago's case, perception, however deserved or undeserved, benefits the city's tourism and retail from suburbanites. This is despite people recently being gunned down in the Loop and other murders in near north neighborhoods I hear about from time to time. But for Detroit, the reigning perception keeps people away from a Downtown that is safer than the nation on average. Perception is the problem and people here seem to want to ignore that problem.
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Warrenite84
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Username: Warrenite84

Post Number: 30
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 2:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sure, murders happen everywhere. Why don't we have the mentality that ONE murder/rape/theft/vandalism is too many? If we don't hold onto higher standards, how are we to improve?

"That's life in the big city", should never cross our minds.

So, how can we break the cycle of desperate people doing stupid things? Would more jobs, education, parental intervention, neighborhood involvement, urban/suburban cooperation or incarceration help? If so, how can we mobilize this desire to achieve what we are looking for?

Instead of businesses writing only checks to help out, why not pay their volunteer workers to tutor students, or help out with neighborhood cleanups,(with those in the neighborhoods).If each business contributes a weekend per quarter, it could bring in a group not used to volunteering and may get them comfortable to contribute their own time.
Although it's true I don't care for neighborhood cleanups when no one in the neighborhood helps out.

Could these suggestions help?
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Sstashmoo
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Username: Sstashmoo

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, February 12, 2007 - 11:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First, I'd like to say hello to fellow Detroiters.. First post for me.

Crime is a huge problem in the city. It's a deterrent for people visiting, folks moving in and businesses considering a move into the city limits. I have a small bizz in the burbs. I've contemplated moving inside Detroit City limits more than once. Cheaper per sq/ft manufacturing etc. But, the thought of working late in a bad neighborhood or leaving all my machinery/equipment in the proximity of so many burglaries, etc. make it unacceptable.

I too would like to see Detroit return to a hub of industrialized, cosmopolitan grandeur that it once was. The fact is, it's going to take drastic changes in the local economy and city government for it to ever happen on anything larger than token redevelopment.

For any retail business thats going to rely on the burbanites for trade, the crime issue has to change. If folks don't feel safe, they aren't going to come. It's that simple. Godspeed the pioneers that say to hell with it and go anyway. Unfortunately, it takes more than a few hearty souls to sustain retail endeavors.

Crime is the #1 problem in Detroit. Fix that and the rest will take care of itself. Just my opinion..
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Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 1013
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 1:32 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

docmo wrote:

quote:

My contention that the CBD is quite safe and vibrant often falls on unreceptive ears. The fact that I do live here has made a significant impression on many of my friends though. Maybe the perception of a vibrant Downtown with another successful Winter Blast is closer to fruition than the usual crime ridden pit many suburbanites carry. Probably not.



docmo, what do you think of the freedom festival shootings and murder downtown, the superbowl murders downtown, the zoo bar shooting/murder downtown, the cheli's chili murders downtown, the good life club shooting/murder downtown, or the shooting/murder near the state theater recently? or, how about the lady found murdered at second avenue baptist church in greektown?

perhaps your definition of a "quite safe" environment doesn't exactly mesh with that of others. but docmo, since you've never been shot, stabbed, robbed, threatened, carjacked, or murdered downtown - i supposed that's reason enough to presume downtown detroit is safe.

do your children likewise find downtown detroit to be a safe place to live?

by the way, your presumptous and haughty opinion that "many suburbanites" view downtown as the "usual crime ridden pit" stands in opposition to the fact that so many suburbanites came downtown to see the city during the winterblast.

docmo, you seem to be seeking approval for your bold move to detroit. maybe you should petition the mayor for a pedestal next to "spirit of detroit."
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 11245
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 12:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

More violence in Ann Arbor.

Mugging at gunpoint.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/ news/10989903/detail.html

Carjacking by U of M student.

http://www.clickondetroit.com/ news/10992382/detail.html

I know my perception of AA will change with the news.
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Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 1014
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 9:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

supersport, i know what you're trying to imply: crime happens "everywhere" - even in sedate amish communities. you can post blurbs about criminal acts in ann arbor, beijing, or cairo - but how is that relevant to crime in detroit? your attitude is somewhere between machiavellian and irresponsible. your response is expedient, blundering, inane.

ann arbor really doesn't hurt a lot when a hardcore isolationist pro-detroiter slings mud against a globally preeminent university town; however, detroit really suffers when it's trying to make a comeback, and murder moves downtown.

supersport, your problem is not ann arbor, it's detroit.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 684
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The fact is studies have shown downtown to safer than the state or national average so there nothing to presume about how safe downtown is.

http://tedconline.com/uploads/ Downtown_Detroit_Crime_Study_2 006.pdf
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Thecarl
Member
Username: Thecarl

Post Number: 1016
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 10:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The fact is studies have shown downtown to safer than the state or national average so there nothing to presume about how safe downtown is.



"studies" - or, "a study?"

enough research will tend to support your own conclusion.

besides, i think the numbers used in the study you refer to reference data from when downtown was more bare, and less murderous.

plug in numbers from the last 12 months - is downtown detroit still the safe haven that the study reports it to be?

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