Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 L. Brooks and COBO Previous Next
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Sharmaal
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Username: Sharmaal

Post Number: 1001
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 11:08 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070207/UPDAT E/702070475

The 1.50 Airport tax doesn't sound bad. Selling Naming Rights is a good idea as well. But, the rest sounds like he was stretching for the 5 ideas he had promised a few months ago.
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Patrick
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Username: Patrick

Post Number: 3993
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 11:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Toyota Convention Center.
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Sharmaal
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Username: Sharmaal

Post Number: 1002
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Wednesday, February 07, 2007 - 11:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

First thing I thought as well.
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Mikeydbn
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Username: Mikeydbn

Post Number: 336
Registered: 04-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 12:37 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A fourth casino jointly owned and operated...yeah right.

Could he be stirring up the pot while he secretly puts together a plan to build a new center in OC?
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Spiritofdetroit
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Username: Spiritofdetroit

Post Number: 262
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 1:00 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nah,

Even he says it should be in detroit.

Seems like Ficano is going to push this through whether L Brooks like it or not. This is the first he has been so aggressive on a Cobo plan
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 680
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 1:48 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Use proceeds from a 4-cent per-pack cigarette tax that pays off a Wayne County debt and which expires in 2010.



Let me get this straight, the hotel& liquor taxes spread across the region is an unfair burden to OC taxpayers. A tax that falls mostly on Wayne County residents is perfectly OK? LBP never misses a chance to prove what a giant douchebag he is
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2447
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 1:59 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

A tax that falls mostly on Wayne County residents is perfectly OK?


Why not name a tax paid in Wayne County that directly benefits Oakland County as that tax does? Oakland County already has paid in excess of $30 million as a result. Is Wayne County as generous as Oakland is?
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Nellonfury
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Username: Nellonfury

Post Number: 215
Registered: 03-2005
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 7:06 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Three casinos is enough in Detroit and Casino Windsor is across the river.
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Genesyxx
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Username: Genesyxx

Post Number: 666
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 8:02 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've gotta say, these have got to be the dumbest plans I've heard. I admit, I didn't expect much, but since he was shooting down plans left and right, I decided to give it a listen. As I'm hearing the dribble about charging taxes to people flying in and out of our city and putting slot machines INSIDE Cobo.. I've gotta say.. words cannot describe the misery that I had to endure sitting through that mess.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5503
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 8:17 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So the Mayor of White Detroit wants to take part of expanding COBO. What's he got to do with Detroit business? Him and KING KWAME don't get along and he wants to propose on having more caSINos, raising cigarette and airport taxes and adding a Racino. Ficano opposes his cookie ideals for it could disrupt the public good.
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Yvette248
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Username: Yvette248

Post Number: 424
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 9:23 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually I was suprised at how well LB did in his speech. Overall, his proposals were ok, but his plan for a 4th casino was just plain dumb. One thing we definitely DON'T need is more people with gambling problems.
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Fareastsider
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Username: Fareastsider

Post Number: 82
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 9:25 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A Mini Casino in cobo that tells me that there is so little commitment and available cash to spend on an expansion. I am gonna move downtown now that there is going to possibly be a slot machine in cobo!
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Jdkeepsmiling
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Username: Jdkeepsmiling

Post Number: 176
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 10:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think there is going to be a consensus between : Ficano, DADA, Granholm and Kwame. It will go through and make some sense and COBO will be expanded. I think that LB will NOT get input precisely because he is so pompous and he will be left on the outside looking in as this project goes through. We are looking at the waning days of his power as people around here slowly start to take a regional approach to solving problems.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 371
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 10:40 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The airport tax doesn't seem like that bad of an idea but I read that taxes levied at the airport can only be used there. What they could do is transfer ownership of the new convention to the Port Authority... Metro is the 17th busiest airport in the world. They could make a killing on it. Especially if NWA merges with another airline like Delta or USAirways.

The new casino/casino expansion is just a dumb idea. There aren't enough outsiders coming in to use Detroit's casinos yet.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 63
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 11:03 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hmm. L. Brooks wants another casino?


L. Brooks Casino
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 372
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 11:11 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess that would also be the time dimension where LB is mayor of Detroit, lol.
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Johnlodge
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Username: Johnlodge

Post Number: 64
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 11:18 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I just wanted to make a funny picture. Don't look too deep into it. :P
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2114
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 4:30 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You folks are so sad. So deeply entrenched and rigid in your thinking.The big bad boogie man L.Brooks Patterson is out to get rotten Detroit. Never mind he grew up in the city attending the schools in Detroit and college too. Nope ..."He don't think like we do"... therefore he is bad.

The best thing that could happen to Detroit is if LBP moved back to the city and became Mayor.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8269
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 4:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Why not name a tax paid in Wayne County that directly benefits Oakland County as that tax does? Oakland County already has paid in excess of $30 million as a result. Is Wayne County as generous as Oakland is?



Does OC or its taxpayers pay that? If you are referring to the hotel/liquor tax you have bought in to LBP rhetoric. The hotel tax does not hit most taxpaying citizens of OC.

How people can believe his non-sense that a hotel tax is a tax on residents boggles my mind.

CL - I know a lot of people that grew up in Detroit and attended school in Detroit. They also have complete contempt for the city. Your points are meaningless.

It isn't that "He don't think like we do" (classy showing how you perceive all Detroiters) it is that he has fought regionalization tooth and nail for years. He has done well for OC but has done it at the expense of the entire region.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2115
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 5:26 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My sentiments from afar jt1 are that the same old lame shit just has not worked. Off the topic of this thread but Detroit really needs a major change in the political culture LBP fits that idea.

As for regionalism what has Detroit brought to that idea?
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Bibs
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Username: Bibs

Post Number: 666
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 9:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I expect leaders to provide viable solutions. Not rhetoric and foot dragging. Lets see. If we talk about it long enough then it will just go away. L Brooks your turning is coming. Lower property value assessments in OC and higher costs are going to eat you alive. Your turn is coming!
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Livernoisyard
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Username: Livernoisyard

Post Number: 2476
Registered: 10-2004
Posted on Thursday, February 08, 2007 - 9:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Lower property value assessments in OC and higher costs are going to eat you alive. Your turn is coming!


Property value assessments don't mean much as far as property taxes are concerned because they mostly determine the percentage share of the total levied taxes an individual real-estate parcel pays. If they all go down uniformly, there is little overall effect on taxes for the property. However, the levy per thousand dollars of evaluation will be raised. Only simple fifth-grade math is needed to visualize this.

When it comes to taxes, there is only one thing that really matters: the total amount of spending the taxing district does. If you doubt this, first study the purpose and how property-tax assessment works. Then, you will know that what you said is mostly meaningless.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 73
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 1:21 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Taxes to pay for Cobo???? What about all of the revenue generated from the auto show and other events? I read it is estimated in the hundreds of millions, maybe more in hidden revenues.

Run it like a business....charge a price for using the facility that will allow for the expansion. If the auto companies balk at that, let them see what it costs to go elsewhere. So long as the elsewhere is not foolishly subsidized by tax dollars, the playing field should be even. If Cobo can't compete, then they don't deserve the business. Harsh but true. Don't prop up a failing business by levying more taxes on an unwilling populace via the government.

Government is the most innefficient business organization imaginable...the money won't get to Cobo, but straight into some corrupt politicians' pocket. In the end, with, or without tax dollars, the proposition will fail unless they (Cobo) run the place like a business.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 74
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 1:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another thing, if it is run successfully like a business, it will make a profit and be attractive to investors....that means more positive revenue in the form of dollars invested.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 450
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 10:12 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cobo is a tough issue, isn't it? What have other cities done? Down here in Charlotte, there is both a city and county sales tax on top of the state one to pay for a new light rail system for example. I generally don't think that taxes are the way to go, but they are the only way government gets funded. Since running Cobo is a government function it makes sense that taxes pay for its upkeep. However, with a proposed new addition the question then quickly becomes 'why'? Who will that larger new facility benefit? If it can be argued that larger events will attract more people and increase the dollars spent in the city, then it would be a 'profitable' initiative for tax payers. If it is solely for an expanded auto show being just once a year, that makes it perhaps hard to argue that any tax funded municipality should pay for it.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 77
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Friday, February 09, 2007 - 11:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Simple...SELL IT!!! Detroit's economy is in the toilet right now, so sell COBO to someone who will turn it into a profit center and grow it at the same time. In the meantime, the City could use the money for something helpful, like a tax cut....What? That's right a tax cut. Let the residents keep more of what they earn and use it as they see fit which, in turn, is the best stimulus for economic growth.
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The_rock
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Username: The_rock

Post Number: 1563
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 8:28 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lots of proposed tax increases, but NOT on beer. Not even a thought of an increase. That tax has remained the same for 40 years.
Nothing more sacred in Michigan than Motherhood, the Flag and the Beer Lobby.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2359
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 10:00 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Another thing, if it is run successfully like a business, it will make a profit and be attractive to investors....that means more positive revenue in the form of dollars invested.


The notion that a convention center would attract private investors if it were run better is, unfortunately, a fallacy.

Convention centers are essentially a loss-leader. They are used to bring in large groups of visitors who, in turn, spend money in hotels, restaurants, car rentals and so on. This is why they are financed using a surcharge on hotel rooms and the like.

The only way a convention center could ever be attractive to a private investor would be he or she owned every hotel and restaurant within a 50 mile radius of said convention center.

As for Mr. Patterson's reluctance for hotels in Oakland County to be a part of financing the convention center, that's fine with me. In a few more years, Detroit will have enough of its debt paid off that we can finance the Cobo expansion ourselves. At that point, every one of the vendors who service it (the majority of whom are in the OC) can be given an ultimatum: relocate into the Detroit city limits or lose the business.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 461
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 1:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That reminds me, what is Detroit's credit rating? It will probably need a half-way decent one to finance a Cobo expansion.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 462
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 1:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually nevermind. It looks like its rating is good enough...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/f ullpage.html?res=9A0DE5DF1339F 936A35755C0A960948260
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Croweblack
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Username: Croweblack

Post Number: 4
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 4:37 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

charlottepaul,

that link made me laugh out loud!
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Jimaz
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Username: Jimaz

Post Number: 1527
Registered: 12-2005
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 5:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Note the date: "Published: June 5, 1986"
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Pythonmaster
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Username: Pythonmaster

Post Number: 23
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 5:47 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How about a tax L Brooks could get behind.....? A tax on impaired driving.
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 727
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 6:59 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Brooks continues to challenge the "tax the people" approach to COBO...especially since his constituents appear to be the target of said appropriations with questionable benefits going to that same constituency.

He has offered 5 creative alternatives...each hard to grasp by those who find it simpler to just reach into our wallets.

Good for him!
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 81
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Saturday, February 10, 2007 - 11:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If it is a loss leader, then who needs it?? Taxpayers should pay for the losses while local business profit from the scraps??

I am playing devils' advocate....If done right, it would not be a loss leader, and it will not be done right owned by, of all owners, the City of Detroit.

Rock expo does pretty well (as does its' owner, Dan Gilbert), does he see this convention center as a loss leader? Not a chance, he is a businessman, and, as such, invests in things to make money (not lose it).

What about the myriad Hotel owned and operated convention centers (Chicago comes to mind as a hot bed)? Yes they rent rooms in their hotels at a better clip when a busy convention is on the premises, but that is not the sole rationale for investing in convention centers. They very much count on the direct revenues from renting the space and other services provided directly to the patrons of the events.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 682
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 1:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The local economy needs it, the places pump hundreds of millions of dollars into the economy the losses pale in comparison. Even in popular convention cities like Chicago they don't see turn a profit.

Also you can't compare them to hotel spaces that do more business hosting local events like weddings.

This article does a very good job explaining the highly competitive nature and challenges of the convention business


quote:

Between 1990 and 2003, exhibit space has grown 51 percent, to 60.9 million square feet. And 40 cities are building or planning to build more space, adding another 6 million to 7 million square feet.
...
"Almost every convention center in the country operates at a loss, not even counting construction costs or debt," the report stated.

And many convention centers are responding to red-hot competition by discounting or waiving rental rates, making it harder to cover their operating costs, it noted.





http://www.hotel-online.com/News/PR2005_1st/Jan05_USConventions.html

(Message edited by eric on February 11, 2007)
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 87
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 10:47 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Interesting article...but that doesn't make it the right way to do business. Change the dynamic whereby they are all private enterprises competing for business....fees will be higher, and if consumers don't like that, they can choose not to participate, or look elsewhere (to the competition).

What I object to is shifting the costs to the public without their consent. Plus the fact that government is so innefficient that a loss is almost guaranteed. This alone could explain why "almost all" operate at a loss. Those that don't could be run by private business. If so, that would support my argument very strongly.
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2360
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 11:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Brooks continues to challenge the "tax the people" approach to COBO...especially since his constituents appear to be the target of said appropriations with questionable benefits going to that same constituency.


Except by "tax the people", we mean "the people who are most likely to use it."

I know, I know.

Structuring the deal so that the cost of it is primarily born by those most likely to use the service, while still allowing the rest of the public to enjoy indirect benefits of it, is a radical concept.

But I'm a radical kind of guy.
quote:

He has offered 5 creative alternatives...each hard to grasp by those who find it simpler to just reach into our wallets.


Except that by "creative alternatives" you mean "things that won't work".

And by "reach into our wallets" you mean "charge the people most likely to use the venue."

(Message edited by fnemecek on February 11, 2007)
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Fnemecek
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Username: Fnemecek

Post Number: 2361
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 1:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

That reminds me, what is Detroit's credit rating? It will probably need a half-way decent one to finance a Cobo expansion.


Last time I checked (last summer) it was at BBB. That's still investment grade, but not good enough to take something like a Cobo expansion by ourselves.

Once more of our debt is paid off, the bond rating will increase and we'll be in a better position to do it.
quote:

If it is a loss leader, then who needs it??


People who need jobs. Governments who need tax revenue that come from new jobs. Residents who need police, fire and other government services that come from new tax revenue.
quote:

Taxpayers should pay for the losses while local business profit from the scraps??


#1. Local businesses are taxpayers, too.

#2. The taxes in this case are primarily paid by people who use the expanded facility.
quote:

If done right, it would not be a loss leader...


Good luck. No one in any other community has ever managed to do something of this scale without some kind of public subsidy.
quote:

Those that don't could be run by private business.


None of the other convention center of this size are run by a private company. Almost all are run by a public authority of one variety or another. The others are run directly by a government agency.
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Ccbatson
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Username: Ccbatson

Post Number: 89
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Sunday, February 11, 2007 - 4:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You may be right, I don't know which centers were considered profitable, their size, or who owned them. Do you??

Even still, the principle still holds...free enterprise beats socialism every time. If it has to be structured in a creative way to do this, then so be it.

The biggest problem is taking the money from an unwilling populace that can ill afford it. In the case of the auto show, wouldn't it be better for the corporations reaping the benefits of COBO to pay for it??

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