  Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2424 Registered: 11-2003 |
It would normally be amusing to see how someone so "intelligent" as our governor, turn out to be so clueless about how to go about and wreck what little of our economy remains, if the ramifications weren't so serious. Taxing services?!? Isn't that the only part of the economy that is running halfway decently at the moment? | ||
Aiw Member Username: Aiw Post Number: 6150 Registered: 10-2003 |
Welcome to Canada's world. We've had the 6% (just reduced by 1% last year) G.S.T. (Goods and Services Tax) added to everthing for years now. It blows. However there are many places that have a GST/VAT tax system. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 9196 Registered: 10-2003 |
The GST/VAT tax was imposed due to the Free Trade agreements and the inequalities it would have imposed on our society. It was a must at the time. Now, it is just a tax grab. MCP001, after Engler's slash and burn policy is there any other recourse to keep money flowing to the state? | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 432 Registered: 10-2006 |
Down here in North Carolina we get taxed on food bought at the grocery store! For general purchases, there is the state sales tax, county sales tax, then on top of those two, the city sales tax! The total is about 7.5% | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 717 Registered: 10-2003 |
We are already taxed 6% on everything up here. The guv remains clueless. ______________________________ __________________ "is there any other recourse to keep money flowing to the state?" ______________________________ _________________ There is lots of money flowing to the state. Cut back on the bloated govt. | ||
Bratt Member Username: Bratt Post Number: 476 Registered: 01-2004 |
Being in the services industry, I put in this sales tax to see what revenue we would be talking about. This would be $15,000/month that we would be sending the government. Wow! | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2427 Registered: 11-2003 |
Um, Goat? Engler has been out of office for over five years now. Try focusing on the here and now. People are leaving the state due to the lack of jobs. Even people with a college degree are leaving the state due to lack of jobs. Those people who are still working have less disposable income to spend locally, and even less under the governor's asinine proposal, which would have an adverse effect on the economy. Where is it written that the amount of money flowing into the state is anywhere close to being spent wisely? For example:Is the staff for the first gentleman of Michigan really necessary? Political favors notwithstanding. Has the governor proposed an across the board salary and benefit cut for all elected officials? And trust me, they get a really great benefit package. Where is the call for education to hold their costs to the rate of inflation? Above the rate of inflation increases for over the past decade is simply unsustainable. And just how is training people for 2-3 years in a new career going to help the state when people with four-years degrees are already leaving in droves? Where is the call for those on medicaid to pick up a portion of the cost of their own health care? Why are we even being asked to support a program that the federal government has no intention of fully supporting? Those are just off of the top of my head, but once you get back to me on those, then we can talk about why the state has more of a right to my own money than I do? | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 718 Registered: 10-2003 |
Bratt, I assume that uses a static model that says people would buy the same amount from you. Is it safe to assume that the higher price will reduce your sales and the associated taxes on those sales? | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 427 Registered: 10-2006 |
The services tax "averages about $67 per year for a family of four." Wow, that is SOOOO very unreasonable!!! (Give me a break. I spend more than that on dinner and drinks.) | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 9199 Registered: 10-2003 |
MCP001, I'm not disagreeing with you. But you do know that those cuts that Engler did and the subsequent spending of the "rainy day fund" is still being felt. I am sure there is waste at the gov't level (isn't there always?)but with unemployment so high how does the state continue to keep revenue flowing. What else can they do? I am just looking to see if anyone has any other ideas as it is easy to say the tax is dumb, but where else can they raise revenue. They sure can't cut (not that I am aware)anymore out of the budget. | ||
Noggin Member Username: Noggin Post Number: 86 Registered: 09-2004 |
Jobs are leaving the state because of high taxes. I have an idea. Lets put a tax on union dues so those people leave the state. That will make the state more competitive with the right to work states and would attract more outside business and jobs. Oh I forgot. That means the democrats would be taxing themselves. That would be unfair. | ||
Mthouston Member Username: Mthouston Post Number: 707 Registered: 01-2006 |
Gee, think how much money the State could save if we went to a part-time unicameral legislature. quote: I believe only the legislature can cut their own salary and benefits. That is a good point, maybe the legislature should give back a couple years of their salaries (it will never happen). | ||
Jdkeepsmiling Member Username: Jdkeepsmiling Post Number: 174 Registered: 01-2006 |
Someone please point out to me the "jobs that are leaving the state due to high taxes." I do not know one business that was like: "man these high business taxes are killing me, I better move my business to Montana." If business taxes were all that mattered that no one would do business in California and Montana would be a mecca for startups. Give me a break. Our problems are due to over-reliance on a dying industry. And if you tell me that the big three are dying because of Michigan State Taxes then...well then I will just slap you. | ||
Jdkeepsmiling Member Username: Jdkeepsmiling Post Number: 175 Registered: 01-2006 |
I do agree with the part time legislature thing though....easy was to save a few bucks and not affect the quality of life for the average Michigander. Make'em part time and cut their benefits.... | ||
Wally Member Username: Wally Post Number: 252 Registered: 12-2003 |
quote: Make that one less time out for dinner and drinks. Since it's apparently nothing to you, will you pay my portion of "nothing" out of your wallet? These same idiots that are willing to pay more and more taxes come out every time taxes are raised..."It's only such and such dollars, nobody will even notice it" WHERE DO YOU DRAW THE LINE? As long as the gov't only raises taxes a little at a time, theoretically we could eventually pay 90% sales tax and not even notice it. That's logical. | ||
Alexei289 Member Username: Alexei289 Post Number: 1247 Registered: 11-2004 |
"The services tax "averages about $67 per year for a family of four." Wow, that is SOOOO very unreasonable!!! (Give me a break. I spend more than that on dinner and drinks.)" I own a Hardwood Flooring company, Services like mine are those that will be taxed. Trust me, it is going to murder what is left of the limping construction industry, since those are big ticket items. Someone spending $5,000 to install hardwood flooring in their home is going to pay 250$ for the services tax and an additional and an aditional $156 at 6% of $2600 in material... Bringing the new total at $5,406... There are 2 things that are going to happen. People are going to spend less on residential remodeling, and I am going to have to take a bite from that amount. Aproximatly 150-200$ to keep prices in line. In all this could cost my company $800-1500 a month. Thats money I wont be spending on rent, tools, and other improvements to my company... and thats money that wont go to tool dealers (who will also add this tax to their costs) realestate, and other companies that might benefit from my business (who will be taxed as well.) Advertising cost for my business will be increased by 5%... ect. Imagine having $2000 of dental work done... thats 100$ extra on that... This is a horrible idea for a state in the shitter. Car insurance is going to go up... Groceries are going to go up... your trip to kinkos is going to go up.. This is going to be fuking horrible. It would be one thing if it were going to a massive infastructure project and were temporary. But this is just because the state cant pay its old bills... fuking retarded.. and they wonder why people are voting with their feet. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 373 Registered: 04-2006 |
The high taxes bit has been beat to death in Michigan. It's D-E-A-D folks. It's the only thing with less life than the economy there right now. Michigan isn't even high on the ranking of states by taxes. Neither is Detroit for that matter. Please dead that argument immediately. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8267 Registered: 12-2003 |
The real costs are yet to be determined. Many folks are IN the services sector because they are not accountants and bookkeepers, and do not earn enough to buy them. The biggest costs will be enforcing compliance with this tax, mark my words. IF this is structured like the sales tax it will be a huge failure as the collections costs and loss of quality service people increase. Nah. No more taxes. Reduce spending and programs according to the real income available to the state. | ||
Udmphikapbob Member Username: Udmphikapbob Post Number: 266 Registered: 07-2004 |
all you "taxes = job loss" people, please comment on the state of affairs presented here in the state of Washington: State and Local Taxes going up since 1980: http://www.ofm.wa.gov/trends/t ables/fig504.asp Unemployment down since 1980: http://www.ofm.wa.gov/trends/t ables/fig105.asp | ||
Charlottepaul Member Username: Charlottepaul Post Number: 433 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Jobs are leaving the state because of high taxes." I find that an interesting assessment. Taxes are much higher here in Charlotte, NC. Charlotte is growing much faster than Detroit. So the above general assessment does not apparently hold true throughout. But I don't want to see higher taxes either and I do lean to the right. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8269 Registered: 12-2003 |
It is a DYNAMIC thing, people, NOT STATIC. You cannot say X has high taxes and growth so high taxes are OK. High taxes stifle growth, a DYNAMIC function that has unfortunate metrics that STATIC minds can fathom. Raise taxes, put on the brakes. Higher taxes, more friction. More friction, reduced momentum of growth. The higher the friction, the greater the slope of the reduction of momentum of growth. So, the higher the STATIC taxes, the greater the reduction of DYNAMIC growth. YOU WILL NOT NOTICE THIS IN A MARKET THAT IS INCREASING RAPIDLY FOR OTHER OUTSIDE REASONS!!! So, to take one or two examples and declare their behavior applicable to HERE and NOW is unfortunately very popular idiocy. | ||
Jiminnm Member Username: Jiminnm Post Number: 1176 Registered: 02-2005 |
If the alleged average cost is $67/year, that means the average person/family spends $3350/year on services. That seems low to me when you add up ALL services - any labor for home and car repairs, home remodeling labor (as mentioned above), any construction labor in the cost of a home, even things such as hair cuts, legal fees, tax or accounting services, work done at the ubiquitous nail and beauty shops, etc. It looks like Michigan may further develop its underground cash economy, as exists here in NM due to our taxation of goods and services. | ||
Rugbyman Member Username: Rugbyman Post Number: 77 Registered: 06-2005 |
I really don't think that a tax on services is going to do all that much to "kill" the service sector. Frankly, your average person isn't going to care all that much about an extra 2% tacked on to a relatively small part of their bill. Furthermore, while people can choose to delay their big-ticket "discretionary" item purchases (like floors or cars or whatever), there will come a point where they just won't delay it anymore and bite the bullet. How long can you delay replacing a leaky roof? For instance (not to marginalize your valid concerns, Alexei), but it seems to me that the average person that has made the decision to pony up at least $5K for a new floor isn't going to consider an extra few hundred dollars to be a deal breaker. Also, since this is a blanket tax covering everyone in your particular sector and it's not as though the consumer will be able to seek a better price in an outside market, I can't see that there will be all that much of a detrimental effect on your overall business. Ideally, the consumer can't go to a competitor and get a lower price since everyone has to pay this tax. Granted, if business owners decide to eat that extra tax in an effort to offer a better price, then they're likely to fall on some hard times. But it's relatively poor business practice, in my opinion, to try to eat new taxes as they come since the tax isn't going anywhere and you run the significant risk of folding as a result. It's kind of a prisoner's dilemma, I suppose. As a business owner, I think I would be more concerned about the fact that the customer base in the state is shrinking as fast as it is. We can argue why people are leaving until Lowell is out of bandwidth, but one thing is certain: quality of life in Michigan is at least a significant factor in all of this. No one is keen to move to a state where services are continually being cut Granted, people don't like high taxes either, but as has been consistently shown, Michigan residents pay relatively low taxes in the grand scheme of things. I'm not a particularly big fan of having to pay more for pretty much anything, but I also know that taxes are simply the price we pay for living in society. Rather than raising already high sin taxes for significantly diminishing returns, I think that taxing something as inelastic relative to sin taxes or anything that can be acquired over the internet to avoid paying the tax is a positive way to go. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8272 Registered: 12-2003 |
It all goes gray as democratic despotism devolves into total tyranny. | ||
Jdkeepsmiling Member Username: Jdkeepsmiling Post Number: 177 Registered: 01-2006 |
Democratic Despotism.....do you know the definition of despotism??? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2449 Registered: 10-2004 |
Those who voted for her should have known that this was coming as it was noted for some time before her reelection that the expected revenue shortfall with the expected spending was going to be about $3 billion. Curious, how silent about this she was during her campaigning! Even with her tax plans there's still a sizable gap in revenues which will have to be addressed, perhaps with even more taxed goods or services. She's been very sketchy in her implementation plans. And she'll have to sell her own party members w/o term restrictions who might just want to be re-elected--unlike her. | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 39 Registered: 09-2006 |
quote: Why assume the budget can't be cut? Michigan is in freefall and we can't continue business as usual. Here's one assessment of fat to trim. You may not agree with some or even any of these edits, but to regain our competitiveness we need to head more in this direction than Granholm's. http://www.mackinac.org/articl e.aspx?ID=7602 | ||
Mthouston Member Username: Mthouston Post Number: 710 Registered: 01-2006 |
quote: It is curious how all the folks elected to Michigan's State government have not come up with any real plan to address a 3 billon dollar shortfall. What State services are you ready to give up? | ||
Bratt Member Username: Bratt Post Number: 477 Registered: 01-2004 |
Irish-Mafia: I don't think our sales would decrease at all if it is a mandatory tax. Our offices in Ohio have a higher service tax than this, and there are other states as well. I have year contracts with these customers and they would have to understand that it is out of my control. My competitors would have the same tax as well. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 719 Registered: 10-2003 |
Not sure what your service is Bratt, but good for you that your customers are not able to say "I can't afford that service" and choose to spend their money in other ways. ______________________________ __________________ "The services tax "averages about $67 per year for a family of four." Wow, that is SOOOO very unreasonable!!! (Give me a break. I spend more than that on dinner and drinks.)" Yvette, You have too much money and should pay this tax. I on the other hand am in agreement with Wally and will leave my portion for you to pay..I don't have it to spare for our misguided govt. No need to wait for the law to change either. They will accept your check today. | ||
Burnsie Member Username: Burnsie Post Number: 850 Registered: 11-2003 |
One of the points on the Mackinac Center site was "Eliminate "History and Arts" subsidies, and cut state library subsidies in half: $35 million." Those are subsidies to PUBLIC LIBRARIES that are already operating on shoestring budgets. Yay! So now the people of this state will get even more stupid! | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8273 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jd, Oh yeah, I coached it with 'democratic' but we are surely and very quietly devolving into pure tyranny. I don't think our democratic delusion can be called tyranny just yet, so I made that demo-despot term up to fit as precisely as I see it. | ||
Mjb3 Member Username: Mjb3 Post Number: 141 Registered: 11-2004 |
Goat said "They sure can't cut (not that I am aware)anymore out of the budget." Yes they could cut teachers benefits(MESSA) to require co-pays and higher deductables. They also could covert all pensions(teachers and all state employees) to 401k's. These two things would probably save $300-400 million. Probably won't happen cause Gov. Jen won't take on MEA. She should take them on and bring them back to reality | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2454 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: One item to take notice of is that Jenny's #1 and #2 campaign-fund donors for both her elections were #1 the tort attorneys and #2 the unions, especially the teachers' unions. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 951 Registered: 04-2006 |
Republicans will bash her Dems will bash Engler The fact is, we have a problem. Bashing Jen or Engler will not lead to solutions. The tax problem was common knowledge even before Jen decided to run. She ran anyway. That says a lot about her character. It also says a lot about the character of the republicans and dems that are in state legislature now. The knew full well that this was a heck of a problem when they last ran. Let them handle this mess. It may cost you a few extra bucks, but be glad you are still working. If you don't like the outcome, you can always vote the bums out; or never vote for them again. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2457 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jen claims to have "cut" the state spending by $5 billion per year since she took over. But Engler's max was $39 billion, and Jenny spent $42 billion last year. Somehow, Jenny is as bad at math as are some DY posters. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 376 Registered: 04-2006 |
I'm sure you adjusted your figures for inflation LY... | ||
Mama_jackson Member Username: Mama_jackson Post Number: 198 Registered: 06-2006 |
Granholm said the Single Business Tax was completely removed by the last legislature. This Services Tax is her attempt to replace the monies the SBT brought in. She cut a lot of services, reduced state employment and we still have a $800 million shortfall. I guess she could close the a bunch of the Secretary of State offices in an effort to save money. Like just have one "super office" to service a county. There have been business that decided not to open in MI, preferring to move to the southern region. The Single Business Tax was one reason, and probably another would be the high utility bills in the winter. That accounted for the boom years ago in TX. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2459 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Sure! Blame the very low inflation rate on any increases! Michigan treats its employees as if they are royalty with their high salaries and Cadillac perquisites. Let's knock them down a peg or three--enough to get them to return to Earth. | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 180 Registered: 11-2004 |
Wow. Did this state collapse into a giant hole in the earth when the sales tax increased 2%? No. People moved on with there everyday lives. | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 465 Registered: 05-2005 |
Don't you guys get it??!! There is AN ARMY OF STATE BUREAUCRATS that need to be supported! Thousands upon thousands of state "workers" that need more of your hard-earned money to keep their jobs afloat! This tax is NOT ABOUT GROWING THE ECONOMY IN MICHIGAN! It is the DIRECT OPPOSITE! This is all about keeping thousands of parasitic bureaucrats FAT AND HAPPY for another four years. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 720 Registered: 10-2003 |
Amen Futurecity | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 721 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Wow. Did this state collapse into a giant hole in the earth when the sales tax increased 2%? No. People moved on with there everyday lives." ______________________________ ___________________ Wow. Would this state collapse into a giant hole in the earth when the sales tax is decreased by 2%? No. People will move on with there(sic) everyday lives with more money in their pockets!! Start with the premise that taxes should be lowered and make them fight to take another penny from you. Too many people are way to willing to throw away their hard earned cash away to the machine. If you have too much money or feel guilty about having money...give it to St. Vincent de Paul (0 administrative costs and direct benefit to the needy). Don't give it to the govt. then it will be chewed up with little if any benefit and will further detract companies and individuals from locating here. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 9204 Registered: 10-2003 |
Futurecity. Tell that to the unemployment workers who they themselves have been just let go. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 722 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Futurecity. Tell that to the unemployment workers who they themselves have been just let go." ______________________________ _________________ So we are supposed to employ people in jobs that we don't need them in so that they can feel good? There are jobs all over this country in the private sector. Why the hell should we employ them on the public trough in an overtaxed state? At that rate, we would continue to detract anyone from coming here and further alienate the private sector jobs that could employ these very people. Cut cut cut govt. and then cut some more. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2467 Registered: 10-2004 |
She's already feeling the heat, so she's now retitled her taxing scheme the "Two-penny Plan." Well, I believe that many are not that stupid and know the difference between 2% and two cents. A self-employed worker deriving income from services might have to take a 2% cut in revenue in order to stay competitive with such self-employed workers elsewhere. Couldn't that run about $1 per hour less in income for such workers, give or take some? If so, that could be a drop in income of some $2000 annually--far from the $67/yr that lying Jenny puts out. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 554 Registered: 12-2005 |
I just heard the guv discussing her various proposed tax increases with Mitch Albom. Regarding her proposed 5% tax on inheritances over $5M, she said, "they can afford to give back to the State of Michigan". As if it had been the State's money in the first place!!! | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 723 Registered: 10-2003 |
and does that $5M include the poor schleps who inherit the family business just to find that they can't afford to run it anymore courtesy of the state? Or the family that inherits the family farm...with the same results. Jennifer Granholm is a thief. Let's take her net assets and distribute them to those we deem deserving...she can afford it. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2470 Registered: 10-2004 |
Yup, Mike. I heard her weaseling and greediness on Albom's show too. And cutting prison's costs means less confinement and more felons on the streets w/o ever serving time for many of them. That's comforting--paying more taxes for her state employees' benefit while having more criminals on the streets, among other scams. But you heard Ballanger state that she probably won't get what she wants. | ||
Ffdfd Member Username: Ffdfd Post Number: 40 Registered: 09-2006 |
quote: But remember we got property tax relief in exchange for that sales tax increase. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 555 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote: This is about more than adding 2% to the cost of services. It will generate a whole bunch of new clients for the tax accountants in this state, who will also be raising their fees by the 2%. Those accountant fees will ultimately get passed on to the service provider's customers. Those service providers who don't want to have to deal with the 2% tax will take their business "underground" and the tax will end up generating less revenue than the guv is projecting. The problem with too many politicians and bureaucrats is that they think tax policy and revenues operate statically, that is, they assume that there will be no change in the taxpayer's behavior as a result of a change in tax policy. | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2006 |
That why in most of the world, the underground economy is bigger than the above ground one. Some places in latin america had 90% tax rates. The whole underlying idea behind this is that people are idiots and that non of the free exchanges they make and the goods and services they produce are worth anything or contribute to life. Of course you were just going to waste the money and they know better than you how to spend it. The highway to Lansing is the road to serfdom. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 70 Registered: 11-2006 |
So, none of you folks opposed to taxes voted for her, right? More to the point, voted for a Democrat, right? If the answer is no, you are getting what you voted for, or you are to naive to realize the simplest of political truths....Democrats seek power by increasing taxes to pay for entitlements to enslave more of the populace so that they must vote for them. They are socialist at their core, believe that government should be bigger, and that individual freedom and free enterprise are the enemy. What about the other side of the aisle?? The Republicans say they want smaller government (less spending) but, of late, are not practicing what they preach by way of spending like Democrats. However, they are more likely (with a lot of encouragement needed from the citizenry) to decrease, or hold the line on taxes and growing entitlements. Where are they spending all of OUR money then? Defense (eh, necessary, but not without controls), and by bowing to special interest pressures. What about individual rights and free enterprise for the Republicans? So-so....gay rights, prayer in school, abortion, due process (for citizens), freedom of speech?? It is not sounding like they are so pro individual rights in these areas, does it? Ironically, the one place where they shouldn't be so rabid for individual rights, gun control, there they are fierce advocates. On free enterprise, they are closer to where they should be, but still not there...over regulation, antitrust laws that stifle true competition, and complacency on governmental monopolies (true coercive monopolies) are the places in need of improvement. I digress...in the real world Democrats=increased taxes and spending to create a bigger dependency class (dependent on them, thereby preserving and growing government and their power). Republicans=less taxes...closer (but not close enough) to the philosophy on which this country (the greatest in the history of the world) was built...capitalism, and where our best hope for future prosperity lies. What about the Libertarians? not bad, but with fatal flaws. Isolationism to the point of ignorance of realities that would result in vulnerability to hostile takeover by foreign and domestic socialists. And anarchistic to the point that no government would be their ideal....no rule of law, no protection of individual rights (unless everyone arms themselves to the teeth to do it themselves like Ted Nugent), no enforceability of contracts allowing for free trade and commerce. Short of a new, "Capitalist" party, the least of all evils is, and will likely remain, the Republican party. I am sure this will piss off a lot of folks...but take the time to really think about it......then make your own conclusions. | ||
Jdkeepsmiling Member Username: Jdkeepsmiling Post Number: 180 Registered: 01-2006 |
CCbatson, You ever read "Natural Man" by Rousseau? | ||
Mcp001 Member Username: Mcp001 Post Number: 2428 Registered: 11-2003 |
The issue on where to cut has been addressed pretty well above, including the Mackinac Center link, so finding additional money to cut, including what I has posted above about Ms. Skinner looking for a new line of work, is a moot point (but still welcome). What I found interesting was the claim by several posters "It's-only-a-few-dollars-I-can -spare-that" argument bandied about several times. To those posters (if this is truly the case), please write a check right now to the State of Michigan c/o the guv. Make a note that you have extra money burning a hole in your pocket and you are all for not placing any extra pressure on the guv to cut spending. I also find it ironic that those same individuals fail to see the parallels of the "Just-one-more-tax-won't-hurt- 'em" crowd, and the overall decline of the City of Detroit. Please don't even attempt to argue that high property taxes, utility taxes, income taxes, etc. had nothing to do with the downfall of the city. To those who argue that the state can spend my money better than I can, just take a look out of your window. I don't care to see the same thing happen to the rest of the state due to our governor's incompetence! | ||
Wally Member Username: Wally Post Number: 253 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cut government. Businesses are forced to make cuts in tough times. $800 million shortfall? Thats just under 2% of the 42 billion dollar budget of the State of Michigan. Oh yeah, I forgot 2% = 2 pennies according to Granholm. | ||
Rugbyman Member Username: Rugbyman Post Number: 78 Registered: 06-2005 |
I like the fact that the proposal to cut some funding to the prisons and speed up early release programs is being met with such ire. If you're interested in government being cut, why are you so upset about money to prisons (i.e. a government program) being diminished? What other programs would you have her cut? Programs to support the elderly or disabled? Keeping kids out of poverty? Education? It all has to come from somewhere. There's always at least some fat that can be cut from bureaucracies, I'll give you at least that. Enterprises run by the state will never be as efficient as those run in the private sector. But some services simply have to be run by the state to ensure fair and even coverage. Look at state health services (or, more adequately, the shell of what the state health services once were) and roads. There is no silver bullet to solving our budget issues. Cuts will have to be met with some revenue increases to preserve state services offered. And for the love of God, stop whining. Our taxes aren't that bad in the grand scheme of things, particularly in the Great Lakes Region. Do your research. If you don't like paying taxes, move to Montana or something. Personal Income Tax: http://www.taxfoundation.org/p ublications/show/228.html Sales and Sin Taxes: http://www.taxfoundation.org/n ews/show/245.html "Michigan taxes 26 of 168 services, ranking the state 39th in the nation, according to a 2004 survey by the Federation of Tax Administrators." http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070109/M ETRO/701090331/1003 | ||
Treelock Member Username: Treelock Post Number: 181 Registered: 03-2005 |
The state has been making cuts to taxes, its public work force and services for longer than Granholm has been in office and where has it gotten us? Where are all the companies waiting to invest in this business-friendly environment? It's time to take a new tack. More cuts will only harm education, our already sorry roads and our struggling urban centers. Enough already. I'm going on the record as saying I can handle paying an extra 40 cents on top of my $20 haircut. | ||
Jdkeepsmiling Member Username: Jdkeepsmiling Post Number: 183 Registered: 01-2006 |
Treelock, I think you are paying too much for a haircut even before the tax...lol | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 153 Registered: 03-2006 |
You need to factor in the cost of complying with this tax. Theater owners and many other merchants prices are usually set at the nearest dollar. For example, $8.00 for a ticket. So are they now going to charge $8.16 and hire extra help to handle all of the coins? Then they have the administrative cost of submitting the tax to the state and all of the associated forms. The merchant will probably eat the cost of the tax to keep his prices the same, to the detriment of the business. If all Jenny wants is another $67 per year for every man, woman and child why go about it an a way that will cause needless waste, complexity and cost? Just raise the State Income Tax by .05% or whatever. Better yet, just make the necessary budget cuts and forget the whole thing. This is only the beginning, once this service tax is enacted it will be all too easy to raise it from 2% to 5-6% later. Very bad idea... | ||
B24liberator Member Username: B24liberator Post Number: 2 Registered: 01-2007 |
Hey, check out Jack Lessenberry's latest column at the Metro Times-- I don't always agree with Jack, but he's fairly centered here... http://www.metrotimes.com/edit orial/story.asp?id=10151 | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 181 Registered: 11-2004 |
Thanks Treelock, I was starting to think I was alone on this. I'm not an advocate of big government by any means, but I think there are some government programs/departments that should NOT be cut. That Lessenberry column was pretty good. | ||
Mjb3 Member Username: Mjb3 Post Number: 142 Registered: 11-2004 |
I want to hear more about these pension cuts for teachers Lessenberry refers to? Are they really a cut, or instead of 8% increase have to settle for 3%. Meanwhile, private sector people are happy to keep their job at exisiting wage. The big issue is benefits. Nearly 1/5 of state outlays are for retirees. It's even worse for some municipal govts. They have to switch these over to 401ks or we will have tax increases every yr to deal with these obligations. This is a wakeup call for the state. We can't afford to have govt like we did in the 60s and 70s when Big 3 had 80% market share. Everything should be on the table, beginning with govt employees and benefits, which have never been adjusted to reality of y2k. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8277 Registered: 10-2003 |
Yes, teachers get 8% annual increase. The incorrect assumption about everything teacher related on this board is ridiculous. | ||
Dnvn522 Member Username: Dnvn522 Post Number: 183 Registered: 11-2004 |
New State employees have been on the 401(k) plan since 1997. | ||
Yvette248 Member Username: Yvette248 Post Number: 431 Registered: 10-2006 |
Nobody wants government to be funded until THEY want something from the government. THEN its "I can't believe I didn't get such and such service". When you believe 2 cents is more important than anything else then: 1. Don't complain about education quality. 2. Don't complain about roads. 3. Don't complain about unemployment. 4. Don't complain about how long it takes for police, firefighters, 911 to respond to your call. 5. Don't complain about kids not being protected from abuse. 6. Fill in the blank for the next potential disaster. All of these things are provided by tax dollars. Just because you don't need it today, don't mean you won't need it next week, next month, or next year. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2006 |
Tsk, tsk...socialist arguments with simple answer/answers. 1. Privatize 2. Privatize. 3. Moot point, not dependent on taxes, if anything, worsened by them. 4. Privatize. 5. Privatize 6. Disasters averted/prevented. Without going into lengthy explanations (readily available). It has been argued that privatizing most governmental services would solve most of the problems we currently face. Privatization means to open each service/industry to the private sector in a free market fashion. On a large scale, these services would have to be contracted by some form of local government but open to bidders. So, yes, taxes would be necessary, but far less so then presently. Competition would yield optimal quality and price. Federal governments' role would be limited to providing enforcement of all contractual agreements. I realize this isn't going to happen in my lifetime, but we should push in this direction at every opportunity. One day, maybe we will get there and be much better off for it. I have not read "Natural man" but will check it out...thanks (I think?). | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2006 |
Ok..on Rousseau, some solid foundational ideas but very crude as would be expected given the era of origin (18th Century France). The biggest piece missing?? Capitalism. An entity and principle little known or practiced at the time of Rousseau. Capitalism makes selfishness equal to selflessness in net effect. Think about it...in a pure capitalistic economy {which is not what we have now, but would hope to one day have} what is good for the businessman is good for the consumer, the economy, and the community at large. A great reference (IMO) is Ayn Rands' nonfiction works from the middle to late 20th century. Her fiction works serve as a nice illustration (but far fetched, of course, being fictional). | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2006 |
There is some mixing of issues here that shouldn't be mixed, IMO. Increased taxes are a bad thing on many levels. Some question this by citing other areas with higher taxes but healthier economies. Make no mistake, lower taxes is the best incentive for economic growth, period. However, as others have alluded to, SE Michigan has some bigger fundamental problems to explain the disparity between our economy and, say, NC, to cite a previous post. What fundamental problems? Not a dying industry (I presume the auto industry is what is meant by this), or at least not directly. Automobiles are a product that will be in demand for the indefinate future. So, if you make a good product (we do), competitive in price, and stay lean on operational costs, you will prosper. That last item is the key....staying lean. Now, any big corporation is going to have waste, and, even if the big 2.125 were lean in all but one area, they would still be in trouble. Why? UNIONS!!! I know I am going to get lynched, but here goes. Unions have made the working class complacent and overpayed for the work they do. Come on....6 figures not including very expensive bennies, 36 hours at a leisurely pace, no incentive for hard work and productivity (actually the opposite is true), false security not linked to performance, and a strangle hold on the neck of the goose that lays the golden eggs. It is no wonder the big 2.125 are crying poverty and restructuring. By the way, what is happening in the restructuring?? That's right, cutting the Union roles and benefits to come in line with the competition. That's the bad news. the good news? Once it is done, the Big 2.125 will come back with a vengeance, as will SE Michigan's economy. But it will not be the same fat days of under educated overpayed laborers, but a new era of more educated, skilled employees much happier and satisfied than their predescessors. Hard manual labor jobs will largely go to third world countries, or to automation....but good riddance, and relative to the horrible quality of life in these countries prior to these jobs, they will be living like kings by comparison. They are happier, we are happier, etc. Sound like utopia? it does to me....free enterprise, liberty, and the american way will do that you know. Just keep big government (translation=liberal socialist collectivist) out of the way. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 317 Registered: 02-2006 |
Yvette248, The problem with you argument is that for the most part education in Michigan in substandard, the roads are terrible, unemployment is becoming an epidemic, emergency response time are rising due to past cuts, kid are being abused and killed regardless (and how do tax dollars affect that anyway?), and shi* happens. Service taxes are coming because taxes got cut for businesses. This is just a band aid to keep state income from dropping anymore. the problem with the service tax is that it taxes labor. Again. I thought the income tax already did that. Government employees from the street sweeper to the Governor have been too well compensated for their jobs and retirements for too long and now we are paying for it. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8283 Registered: 12-2003 |
Privatization is NOT the answer, that just means we will be paying someone PROFIT for basic services. There is an automatic loss and opening for corruption potential in every privatized service. SURE, that potential exists with government-control too...and we've obviously seen how it can be abused...but privatization is NEVER the answer with basic governmental services. PROFIT to the service organization is money WASTED. We can control the waste within our government IF we all get involved again...and stop letting those who SEEK power wield it with impunity. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 332 Registered: 04-2006 |
Taxing on services has only been tried in two states, MA and CA. In both states, this tax mechanism has failed and thus was repealed. This tax has been proposed to pay for a regional transit authority, but research shows it is a bad idea primarily because we already pay a tax on services in the form of income taxes. I'm in favor of a small state income increase because I'm working and can afford to pay another $50. more to help out our state. Also, I drive a big car so I'm in favor of a one cent per gallon tax increase for fuel. This one cent tax increase is enough to raise $50 Million per year which is enough for SMART to provide 24 hour, 7 day per week bus service every 15 minutes to downtown Detroit, Pontiac, Mt. Clemens and the airport with high quality, computerized, handicapped accessable bus service. If this were done, then cities such as Livonia and Canton will opt. in the county transit authority with a property tax and then we could connect all the limited service bus routes to the main state funded bus routes. I'm not against changing the state constitution to allow county sales taxes if we get jobs to come back and also if revenue sharing is first protected to make sure our government serves the best interest of the taxpayers only. Also, the county tax should be the same in every county in my opinion because if it's higher in Livonia, Wayne Co. then people will go to Farmington Hills, Oakland Co. to shop and they will even have SMART buses also which Livonia does not. So, let's all work together on this to support both SMART and our state of Michigan to make sure we have both the best state and public bus service. The next time you DY'ers drive downtown, just think if we all ride a SMART bus we really can make a difference. We should all help others out in these hard times and also we should all not be stupid but instead we should all be SMART. | ||
321brian Member Username: 321brian Post Number: 318 Registered: 02-2006 |
Privatization will help in the long run because governments won't be on the hook for the costly retiree pensions and benefits. Trainman, Keep driving your big car and telling us to drive the bus. I think most people can agree that riding the bus sucks and should be avoided at all cost. Why wait at the bust stop for a bus that might or most likely will not be on-time when you can drive and make stops when YOU want. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 729 Registered: 10-2003 |
""Nobody wants government to be funded until THEY want something from the government. THEN its "I can't believe I didn't get such and such service". When you believe 2 cents is more important than anything else then: "" ______________________________ ___________________ 1. Don't complain about education quality. Yes complain about it. Dollars are thrown at bloated administrations and union bloated benefits for sub-par performance..DO NOT throw more money to the trough. 2. Don't complain about roads. YES COMPLAIN. The road system is badly run as an employment vehicle not as an efficient system to meet the publics needs. Run it better and reduce the funding. 3. Don't complain about unemployment. YES COMPLAIN. Unemployment is driven in part by the unhealthy TAX policies of this state and our heavy burden of unionism. COMPANIES AND JOBS GO ELSEWHERE BECAUSE OF THIS. 4. Don't complain about how long it takes for police, firefighters, 911 to respond to your call. YES COMPLAIN....AND INVEST WISELY HERE. 5. Don't complain about kids not being protected from abuse. YES COMPLAIN. and restructure Michigan Social Services... if you think they need more money under the new structurE...present an intelligent plan...don't give more money to the present failed institution. 6. Fill in the blank for the next potential disaster. SOUNDS LIKE AN INTERESTING THREAT FROM A BUERACRAT LOOKING FOR MONEY...BUT WHAT IS IT BEYOND THAT? All of these things are provided by tax dollars. Just because you don't need it today, don't mean you won't need it next week, next month, or next year. NO. Tax dollars are spent and most of the areas that you mention are not delivering proper services for those dollars. This State needs to improve their efficiencies and if they don't, the leadership of the State should be fired. ______________________________ ___________________ | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8288 Registered: 12-2003 |
Privatization will hurt in the long run because the companies will fail to pay their pensions and leave the government ON the hook covering their retirees AND running off with our tax dollars they skimmed as profit off of something that can be made to work publicly, as long as we do NOT continue to let government employees run their own ship. I watched a fellow wait for the Gratiot bus in the frigid cold last night, while walking home from the Abreact theater, and wondered how long he'd been waiting there freezing. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1355 Registered: 11-2003 |
I think the biggest problem with this budget is, there are not a lot of details about where the money is going to go. In terms of giving schools, more money (and this is a teacher talking), the public needs to know where their investment in schools is going to go. The public needs details on where it will be going. Unfortunately, too many people do not even understand how school budgets works. But the first thing that needs to be done is to reintroduce and pass the law that opens up public school health insurance, which has been talked about, would save lots of money. This would break up the MESSA (MEA) monopoly, but is not a end all fix all. Remember that not every teachers union in this state is ruled by the MEA. But the 50 some percent that are would be able to bid for the best price instead of sticking with MESSA. And before bashing teachers, remember that unions represented by the American Federation of Teachers were in favor of this law, because it would allow them to pool districts together to get a better price. We need to make some choices here, do we want to pay a little more taxes, or do we want a state that offers less services? That is a question each one of us needs to ask ourselves. You need to decide personally what you want then write your legislators and tell them what you want them to do. We can all argue here till we're blue in the face, but I do not think we will change each other minds on our beliefs in this department. If you want to pay more taxes, tell them. If you want them to cut, cut, cut. Tell them what you think we can live without. And if you want more specifics to where potential taxes will go, demand to get specifics. This stalemate needs to end, and this problem needs to get fixed. The elimination of the SBT not having a solution is only making potential businesses wait to find out what the answer is. Those legislators are making lots of money, they need to solves this problem, or we need to recall them and find some that will. Granholm has come up with a proposal, and now they need to take it seriously and tell her what they will go for and where she needs to go back to the drawing board. We also need to tell her where we all stand. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2488 Registered: 10-2004 |
How's the "Gross" book coming, Bob? I'm mostly lurking lately. BTW, just how many states (and which are they) are currently taxing services and how is (did) that work for those that do (did)? (Message edited by LivernoisYard on February 10, 2007) | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8292 Registered: 12-2003 |
BTW, if a good case can be made for privatizing a service, then it probably shouldn't have been a government responsibility in the first place. I dare say the entire system is overloaded from the decades when capitalism made money hand-over-fist with the blessing of seemingly inexhaustible cheap raw materials protected by US Marine Corporate Security and ever-expanding markets based on the reputation of American-made goods. NOW that we've got the world marketplace determining limits of how deeply our capitalist overlords can rape unsuspecting consumers...ahem, sorry...determining how much profit can be derived from any particular good (AND service, apparently, considering the 'world market' of entrepreneurial labor)...THEN government needs to revisit EVERY sector of their responsibility to see if they are even warranted in an information age service economy. Anything that goes against growth and progress should be revisited, with a lean towards busting established corporate lock-holds on markets...even our regulations need to be evaluated, and duplicity in government functions eliminated...with an emphasis on local control with federal oversight ONLY on cases of abuse of power. I do NOT see ANY reason why a level of government at the COUNTY level needs even exist. I'd say government is overdue for a 'Forth Wave' information-age revelation...what I wouldn't do to see the entire budget detailed for MY line-item veto...local, state, AND federal. NO reason why that cannot happen in this information age...each citizen should be able to vote for each and every item they want their tax dollars spent on! Then we'd see some power shifting...and hopefully the elimination of corporate control over our leadership at ALL levels of government. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1532 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote:I've been thinking the same thing. Why can you order a book on Amazon.com in minutes but you can't direct your government to stop stripping away your rights -- in a so-called democratic free country? In the recent national elections the Democratic Party took House and Senate. It seems largely presumed that the reason was objection to the war in Iraq. Why, in this day and age, are we only allowed to presume such an important thing? The people have voices. The government could hear those voices if it chose to, yet still it chooses not to hear us. That is not freedom, no way, no how. | ||
Bob Member Username: Bob Post Number: 1356 Registered: 11-2003 |
LY, book has not arrived yet. And to answer your question, wasn't it Massachusetts and if I remember correctly, they considered it a failure and was repealed. This is why I believe this excise tax as they are calling it is dead on arrival. There was one other state in addition (I can't remember which one), but they too considered it a failure and repealed it. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2006 |
Privatization should not be the issue as so much of what government now does (with our money, mind you) should not have been governmental matters in the first place (certainly this was not the intention of the framers of the constitution and fathers of our great country). Since they unfortunately are, privatization is the process of reversing this. Capitalism is not as likely to be corrupt as socialism for a number of reasons....too many to go into here in any depth. In a true free enterprise system, the best products and services at the lowest prices survive and prosper, the rest lose out and die off from the superior competition. If a company is raping the system...prices will be higher and quality lower. This becomes an opportunity for a competitor that is not corrupt to take over. Better products and services, less cost gives more jobs (to produce said products), more disposable income in the hands of the populace, and more consumption....in short, growth where everyone wins. Pensions...another collectivist/socialist idea if run by anyone other than the individuals themselves. If the individual in the above capitalistic system were to choose to delay gratification and save for retirement, they would do far better by doing so themselves than in a government, or even a company run pension program. Even setting aside a small portion in a interest yielding CD, money market, or bank account with compounded interest will outperform what we currently have. Even moreso when you take into account that the individual will have more of his/her own money to save in the form of lower taxes. Another win-win courtesy of free enterprise/capitalism. Many of the criticisms posted regarding government services are perfect illustrations of how inefficient, and corrupt government is, especially when it expands beyond the intended boundaries. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2489 Registered: 10-2004 |
Seeing that I invoice my freelance or independent contractor services to DC or TX (or even overseas, occasionally), would those be covered under the proposed tax if done for entities out of state? If so, I would probably have to charge the same (in order to stay competitive) but simply transfer a rather significant extra income-tax equivalence to Lansing. In no way would that be anywhere near $67 annually for me. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8294 Registered: 12-2003 |
Cobatson, Capitalism is WAY more likely to be corrupt, because profiting off your neighbors...turning relationships into cash transactions...is at its core demeaning, degrading, dividing...well, dehumanizing. The ONLY way Capitalism has existed in a supposedly Christian society is from duping the public at large over a period of time. There is NO way you can reduce a person to EITHER labor production OR consumer purchasing without dehumanizing them. That said, as soon as national and multi-national corporations were allowed to form and prosper, pure capitalism reached the depths of its potential...the entire earth and its inhabitants have ALL suffered from the last one hundred years of unchecked abuses. There is NO other conclusion any perceptive person can make, the ONLY argument FOR it is that it has allowed Americans to become fat, comfortable, independent, and lazy. I cannot say in ANY way that ANY of those are a good thing outside moderation. Healthy is Fat outside moderation. EVERY benefit we've enjoyed from this system has come at the EXPENSE of someone we do not care to consider...there is no value in indigenous behavior, and worse if they happen to reside on or near raw materials the machine needs for its hot belly. Capitalism plays off every, and I mean every, bad behavior ingrained in each mere human. It brings out the worst in people, while pure socialism brings out their best. I am a fan of the first (and only pure) socialist of the modern age, Jesus. The Book of Acts details some of what happened to their socialist experiment. The ONLY reason the modern communist version of socialism failed is that they denied God. I would wager that is why capitalism is failing us now. Things certainly change when these mere human constructs seek to become God themselves...because mere humans do not 'do' God-like well at ALL. We think it is about power, and authority, and control over others. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8295 Registered: 12-2003 |
LY, Begs the question of how this will hit those who provide the service of entertainment from outside the state. Far as I know, we tax sports stars and other entertainers when they 'perform' in our state. If we don't, California does. We need to see how the other service taxes were effected in those two other states...I'd love to see the details on work performed and/or delivered out of state as well. What about writers and content providers?! | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2006 |
Wow Gannon....what planet are you coming from. Even more to the point, why on earth are you here in the US? It would be like me choosing to live in the USSR...it makes no sense. Socialist economies decline into failure...always. Both historically and philosophically. Pre-emptively, yes, socialist economies certainly exist, and may appear, for a short time, to be doing OK...but in time they are doomed to fail. | ||
Schulzte1 Member Username: Schulzte1 Post Number: 8 Registered: 01-2007 |
There is a misconception that any tax hikes will kill the economy. Economies grow for reasons other than taxes. Look at the post World War II economic boom, even though through much of it the highest federal tax bracket was 91% Can you imagine that. We were fighting commies at a time when the federal high tax bracket was 91%? Now I don't believe that taxes should be anywhere in that neighborhood, that is crazy. But they has money to build the interstate highway system, go to the moon, and build 6,000 nuclear warheads. We couldn't do any of that right now. What I mean by all this is that Engler cut our income taxes from 4.3% to 3.9% when we had a very short lived surplus. It is probably time to go back to that rate; that incremental tax hike won't injure our economy that much, though the neo-cons will have you believe it will. Also, of 43 states that have an income tax, 35 of them have some kind of progressivity in them (Source, World Almanac 2007). Also, many states have 5 and 6%, sometimes even 9% taxes on income over $100,000. Even conservative states such as Utah and Kansas have progressive taxes. That is something Michigan should look at. Rhode Island tax brackets are 25% of the Federal tax brackets. I say income over say 75,000 should be taxed at 5.3%, income between 25,000 and 75,000 should be taxed at 4.3%, below 25,000 at 3.3%. This way Granholm could say she's cutting lower class taxes, even though it would be a big hike overall. Its better politically, and it would be in line with other states, which should be highlighted. Shameless plug, check out my home page | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2006 |
Also...capitalism isn't failing us..we haven't got it, so how could it fail us? At best we have a mixed economy, and should aspire to have a capitalist economy. You dismissed, or ignored my description of how a capitalistic economy works and naturally roots out corruption. Why? No rebuttal? Again, why? Religion, or the absence of it is why socialism failed?? You, of course, realize that organized religion is responsible for the vast majority of death and destruction for all of history. Faith is great if confined to personal belief as opposed to militant missionary pursuits. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 86 Registered: 11-2006 |
You don't for a second believe that people payed 91% do you? It is well known that the tax code at the time was full of loopholes that brought the real number/percent closer to 40% (still too high, but...). | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 333 Registered: 04-2006 |
Quote I'd say government is overdue for a 'Forth Wave' information-age revelation...what I wouldn't do to see the entire budget detailed for MY line-item veto...local, state, AND federal. NO reason why that cannot happen in this information age...each citizen should be able to vote for each and every item they want their tax dollars spent on! Then we'd see some power shifting...and hopefully the elimination of corporate control over our leadership at ALL levels of government. End of Quote Livonia would still have public bus service, if it were not for corporate greed. The Transit advocacy groups did too little to protest the state transit cuts and poor bus service specifically in Livonia in the year of 2002 when these problems were well known. Instead they waited until the last few months and waged a battle against city hall and lost because of gross negligence and false propagandas by supporting the illegal DARTA agreement and other mis-guided efforts. It’s not just time to vote NO on tax increases and new tax mechanisms but to vote HELL NO and mean it. Then Michigan will once again be a state where businesses and industries will locate as opposed to moving out. The above also applies to education and every other government function in Michigan. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 563 Registered: 12-2005 |
Schulzte1 is referring to the top marginal tax rate of 92%, which applied only to the amount of Adjusted Gross Income that was in excess of $200,000. A single filer who had an AGI of $210,000 in 1951 still paid a marginal rate of 22.2% on their first $2,000 of AGI just like everyone else and only paid the 91% against the final $10,000 of AGI. [source] However, anyone who writes a statement like "Economies grow for reasons other than taxes" and then offers opinions on how to change the tax structure in this state has absolutely no credibility and reveals themself as being economically illiterate. | ||
Schulzte1 Member Username: Schulzte1 Post Number: 9 Registered: 01-2007 |
Well if you're a professor of economics and public policy, lets hear your ideas of how you are going to increase revenue, or cut spending or whatever. I suggested going back to a 4.3% income tax with some progressivity in the rate. What is your idea? The tax haters and neo-cons are always fire and brimstone about possible increases, but give very few solutions and rarely say what should be cut. My argument is that our tax rate is comparatively low compared to other states, despite what the neo-cons say. | ||
Mikeg Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 564 Registered: 12-2005 |
It doesn't take a professor of economics and public policy to understand that taxes are a drag on economic growth. As I've written in this forum before, a good place to start is with breaking the grip that the MEA has on the health care coverage for their teachers. Allowing school districts with MEA teacher contracts to competitively bid for health care coverage could yield more than $100M in annual savings that could go directly to the classroom in districts across the state. Additional reforms that could save hundreds of millions would be to align health care coverage for all teachers, state employees and their retirees so that they have co-pays and deductibles comparable to Michigan workers in the private sector. Ditto for converting all remaining state workers who are still in a defined-benefit pension plan into a defined-contribution plan. These represent hundreds of millions of dollars of savings opportunities that would not cut even a single state employee, yet the Governor never considered fighting for them. To her credit, she has taken up the issue of local govt. and school district consolidations, but that won't get us any help for this or next year's budget. As I've said before, Michiganians cannot deny that they live in a "high tax state" so long as they have to pay a tax upon a tax every time they fill up their gas tank. | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 466 Registered: 05-2005 |
^^^Bright and early Monday morning eliminate 6,000 state "workers" and their golden parachute benefit packages. There is no need for us to let the state steal even one penny more of our hard-earned dollars to keep these parasites fat and happy. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8296 Registered: 12-2003 |
CCbatson, I never said ANYTHING about religion. God has as much to do with modern day religion as mankind has allowed with economics or any of the sciences. We are SO far from the ideals set forth in the book that so many revere in their religions...and one of the foundational tenets in the New Testament IS certainly to be wary of the power of putting money into every relationship and transaction...making IT the conduit and object of trust. Show me the money? Nah. Not once you've bumped into God. Capitalism ONLY works if you believe what they say and behave like a good, little sheople. Problem is, the entire system is designed to only truly benefit the few that choose NOT to play that game and go off and start something by themselves, for themselves. THE INSTANT that happens, pride and greed and selfishness immediately subplant reason and common sense. YOU'VE lost your sense, not me. Shows clearly when you recommend that I go to an even MORE Godless country to suffer THEIR failed version of another bastardized economic system. Give it up, you'll not convince me of ANY real, lasting benefit from Capitalism at all. It is a failed concept...we are merely suffering from our reliance upon it. Now...SOCIO-Capitalism can work, with minor changes in the structure of corporations. There are many firms adapting to a more ethical way of conducting business, I just learned that REI outfitters allows their customers to become share-owners in a co-op so they can receive some of the profits of the company's profit, when they get a portion of THEIR contributions during the year back. It's corny, and not thorough enough for me, but I'm sure it was the only thing they could sell their investors. You cannot tell me that the Wall Street 'bankers' haven't completely neutered every major industry...first by loading them up with debt to protect against the raiding common in the 80s and 90s...then forcing the companies to merely focus on the next monthly and quarterly bottom lines at the expense of long-term planning...then penalizing them when their performance didn't meet expectation FOR ANY AND ALL REASONS! I'm sure more than a few big-time MBAs are reassessing their dependence on debt as a shield...it ONLY works when interest rates are low, from favorable ratings out of the very people that lend the damn money. NO, corporate capitalism is failed. We are suffering that now, and our ONLY path to success...and I define that as merely keeping our heads above the waterline...is to adapt our system to a socio-capitalist one via largely dismantling the neo-monopolies and breaking the stranglehold this big money has on our governmental operations. OVERALL? I think the Luddites were mostly right, just not how they carried forward their ideals. Same with poor Ted Kascynski...that guy was so smart he had it all figured out, except the non-perceptual spiritual stuff...and for that we all suffered a twenty-odd year reign of terror from a frustrated madman genius. He was absolutely wrong on his wicked attempts to bring attention to his manifesto...but from the first paragraph onward of his treatise, he speaks some earth-shattering truths. But you cannot stand against the machine and prosper, let alone survive. I will never take his tack down the lane of irreversible actions, I knew the fellow in A2 who was on his top ten list, whose aide lost much of his hand opening that package bomb the idiot sent. Genius and idiocy are teetering a very fine line...a good friend told me that MOST with IQs higher than 160 figure it out early and simply off themselves. Luckily, I'm not that smart. But at least I recognize a shitty, loaded craps game...and our current economic system is one of them. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8297 Registered: 12-2003 |
Futurecity, I'm all for that idea. But...do we want them on the streets? Unable to fend for themselves, they will be THE most desperate and dangerous of the homeless. | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8298 Registered: 12-2003 |
Trainman, Thanks for that clarity, curious. Yeah, we need a more efficient feedback system. Government is oddly out of touch, probably because they aren't computerized enough. They are too busy making that technology work towards tracking, control and disciplining those who they are supposed to be serving! | ||
Gannon Member Username: Gannon Post Number: 8300 Registered: 12-2003 |
BTW, CCbatson, true pure socialist economies have NOT been allowed to prosper...some of our best Marines have seen to that upon orders from the governmental arm of the corporate capitalist military/industrial machine! So YOU can say we've never seen true capitalism, and I san say we've never seen true socialism. I also say that neither work without an infusion of Spiritual help that MUST be, as you say and I concur, an individual pursuit devoid of delusions of conquest. Cheers. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 88 Registered: 11-2006 |
Gannon, you may be a poster child for radical socialism which makes you a prime target for logical rationale arguments to prove your philosophies wrong, and then, just for kicks, back it up with history. Seriously Gannon, with an open mind, read some Ayn Rand nonfiction, think about it honestly, and then reassess your positions. I agree fully about religion, maybe less fully about G-d, but that is a personal decision to which we are all entitled to make on our own...Thanks to American liberty which results from individual rights and...you guessed it, the principles of capitalism. Try voicing your faith based opinions in a socialist society and see how far you get (prison, estrangement, or death). Right idea Futurecity, but to harsh and fast. It is one thing (and far preferrable) not to issue entitlements easily in the first place. It is a whole different thing to remove said entitlements once they are in place. Practically speaking the wisest course is to hold the line on spending (entitlements) as much as possible, and slowly diminish them over time. |
