  Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 604 Registered: 06-2006 |
AFFIRMATIVE ACTION FIGHT U-M applicant pushes to keep gender, race out of admissions February 16, 2007 BY KRISTEN JORDAN SHAMUS FREE PRESS EDUCATION WRITER Eric Russell didn't get his wish, didn't get admitted to the University of Michigan Law School next year. But that's OK with him -- as long as his rejection was without consideration of his race or gender. http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070216/NEW S06/702160423 | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8347 Registered: 10-2003 |
When will there be an honest discussion about legacy points? | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2163 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm very tired of these whining, overprivileged brats who think they deserve whatever it is they want. Even if this guy is qualified, the University is not required to accept him for admission. It's even worse, though, when someone barely qualified (as in the two lawsuits against UM that went before the Supreme Court) thinks that the reason they got denied was affirmative action, and not a lack of competence on the part of the candidate. Life doesn't always go your way. Get a helmet. (Message edited by DaninDC on February 16, 2007) | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 605 Registered: 06-2006 |
"When will there be an honest discussion about legacy points?" When the people who are opposed to them organize and put a measure on the ballot like the people opposed to AA did... You should do it JT1...I think you'd get a lot of support for it | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8350 Registered: 10-2003 |
There can be discussion prior to putting something on the ballot. What is you take on legacy points? Don't you find it hypocritical that the U can not grant any special preference in admitting students, unless their relatives went their. Can you answer the direct question? As someone that seems so outraged at AA you seem to dismiss legacy points in a rather flippant manner. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 606 Registered: 06-2006 |
Danindc: You missed the point of both the article AND the two lawsuits that were filed...in fact, the whole point of the lawsuit against the law school three years ago was to purposely show that someone who was barely qualified was rejected in place of someone even less qualified...that 40-year-old broad only took the LSAT to sue the school...she wasn't even trying to go to law school...she was a test case, and had to be careful how she did on the LSAT because if she scored too high, she'd get admitted and then the lawsuit couldn't move forward... | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2164 Registered: 10-2003 |
^Since when does the majority of voters determine the admissions standards of a university, particularly when only 25% of all American adults have a four-year degree in the first place? What's next?--placing the dorm cafeteria menus up for a statewide referendum? What the hell do you elect the Board of Regents for? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 607 Registered: 06-2006 |
I am opposed to legacy points JT, so you'll have to find someone else to argue with | ||
Higgs1634 Member Username: Higgs1634 Post Number: 47 Registered: 10-2005 |
It is my understanding that under the challenged UM system, a legacy got 1-4 pts towards the admissions total. An "under represented minority" received 20pts. (Meanwhile a perfect SAT score received only 12 pts.) What honest discussion is needed? Legacy vs Minority? seems that minority would always win under that set up even if they had a perfect SAT to go along with Mom and Dad's contribution. Or am I missing something? | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8351 Registered: 10-2003 |
I wasn't looking to argue. I was looking to get your opinion on legacy points. See how much easier it is if you just address something directly. Saves a lot of headache. Maybe we can find a millionaire from Cali to back the proposal and get signature collectors that are willing to misrepresent about what is on the ballot. I don't absolve those that gave their signature without reading the actual text. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 609 Registered: 06-2006 |
JT1: The signature collections tactics has always been a weak argument, even if it is true (which is doubtful), because the passage of the amendment itself is evidence that there was clearly more than enough support available to get the measure on the ballot in the first place... Besides, even if all the signatures BAMN contested were thrown out, there were still enough remaining signatures to put it on the ballot | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 610 Registered: 06-2006 |
Higgs: A few more points about legacy systems... 1. Most of us white people do not have parents who went to college, and so legacy points don't even apply to us...by contrast, ALL members of underrepresented minorities get preferential treatment from all colleges with AA programs 2. Legacy points are only factor in when an applicant applies to the particular school their parents went to...by contrast, AA gives minority applicants a points boost when they apply to virtually any school in the entire country... 3. The points boost one might get for being a legacy applicant doesn't even approach the points boost given for being a minority applicant, which virtually amounts an automatic acceptance as long as your name is spelled correctly on your application... 4. A majority of the population would likely be in favor of eliminating legacy programs in public universities, so if you feel strongly about them, then you can put a petition together like MCRI did...however, I suspect that the pro-AA side of the argument would really prefer to keep legacy programs in place so they have something else to bitch about, which is why they haven't taken any action to try to eliminate them... I'm not arguing in favor of legacy points. I am against them, but the reasons above show why they are not on my radar as much as AA programs | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 407 Registered: 04-2006 |
Shut up. | ||
Danindc Member Username: Danindc Post Number: 2165 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: And of course, you can substantiate this, I presume. This must be why every black high school kid in America gets into an Ivy League school, huh? | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 734 Registered: 10-2003 |
I agree with legacy points. I need to get my kids into school. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 612 Registered: 06-2006 |
Danindc: I was talking about state universities, since that's what we're discussing and that's what Prop 2 applies to... During the USSC case a few years ago, U of M contended that it's admissions formula was used to make minority applicants "more competitive" when the University considers its applicant pool, yet the University admitted that it automatically admits virtually every black and latino applicant that applies to the school... | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4842 Registered: 11-2003 |
White privilege is what we call it in the South. UM just got caught within an old racist system which allows white people to get what they have always had and need and want. Mistake it not, the closer you can pose to white aristocrat, the better UM will treat you. In the 1920s, UM kept Jewish medical students at bay as to not have "too many" in practice. Racial and ethnic quotas at UM are as old as the Univ. itself. Fast forward to today, without controls on bright Jewish students, the entire law, medical, engineering, and other professional schools would be all Jewish. So, only by the power of the white money and majority, can they control the minorities. This is an old racist story, sad but true. jjaba tells it like it tis. The African-American community and the Federal Govt. will have no better luck getting their people in than the Jews have. The idea of a colorblind system at UM is not possible now nor has it ever been. Read your history books, please! If you are a white ethnic or African-American and think you can compete with Grosse Pointe, you must be smoking roses. jjaba. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4843 Registered: 11-2003 |
The U of M has more ways to fuck you than whores on Livernois and Michigan Avenue. jjaba, Westside urban sociologist. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5128 Registered: 10-2003 |
The Eric Russell's and Jennifer Gantz's of the world are true civil rights and modern day MLK's and Ghandi's. The annals of history will record their fight against the crushing oppression of minorities and women against white men as a victory for civil rights. No longer do poor, victimized white men have to fear being treated as second class citizens in a society they dominate. God Bless Michigan! And, may the poor, depraved Americans states and world nation's that still use types of AA be shown the light of God to illuminate the injustice again, and crippling plight of, the white man around the world. Seriously, though, you couldn't write a better story than that. The revisionist history that so many used and continue to use to justify their support of Proposal 2 is simply astounding and completely separated from reality, and history will treat these views, as such. The day the oppressors claim to be the oppressed is the day that I realize who I can no longer trust to deal with me in reality. | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 737 Registered: 10-2003 |
Jjaba, I, being white, rather like white privilege...don't really get enough of it though. I thought you were from the west not the south. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5129 Registered: 10-2003 |
Wow, at least you're honest. lol | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 738 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm Trying L. | ||
Mckrackin Member Username: Mckrackin Post Number: 12 Registered: 01-2007 |
-"^Since when does the majority of voters determine the admissions standards of a university, particularly when only 25% of all American adults have a four-year degree in the first place?" Since the university is state funded. The second they want to go private they can admit however the fuck they want. Until that time, I don't really cherish my tax dollars going to a institution that discriminates against ANYONE. -"Even if this guy is qualified, the University is not required to accept him for admission" Now they are, and could it be any more fair? (Message edited by mckrackin on February 17, 2007) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5130 Registered: 10-2003 |
He didn't get in under this new system. What do you mean the university is required to accept him? They are required if he meets there new criteria. He didn't. | ||
Mckrackin Member Username: Mckrackin Post Number: 15 Registered: 01-2007 |
New criteria have not gone into effect yet. Per the new criteria they are not allowed to deny or accept admission based on sex, race, religion, etc. So if academic requirements are met, he gets in(The legacy argument withstanding). Not sure the actual date for this going into effect, I know UM was trying to get it pushed back. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 4845 Registered: 11-2003 |
jjaba is a Westsider. Reference about the South was for affect. jjaba, Westside Torah Bukkor. | ||
Jt1 Member Username: Jt1 Post Number: 8355 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Yes, they have. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5131 Registered: 10-2003 |
Mckrackin, did you not bother to read the article? | ||
Zephyrprocess Member Username: Zephyrprocess Post Number: 253 Registered: 08-2006 |
Mckrackin--there is no objective standard that mandates UM admission once one surpasses some threshold. There are still well-qualified students who will not be offered admission. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 613 Registered: 06-2006 |
Before Prop 2, U of M law school would have required Eric Russel, because of his race, to be able to score 10 points higher on his LSAT (which is ALOT) than the black guy he graduated HS and college with in order to have the same admissions status... some F-ing white privilege anyway, that nonsense is over now... | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 650 Registered: 08-2005 |
For African-American students at the University of Michigan undergraduate college, the drop out rate under the Affirmative-Action admissions system was 39%, more than double the 17% dropout rate for everyone else. Clearly, letting in students who aren't academically qualified isn't helping many of them if they end up not graduating anyways and wind up with student debt they have to pay off. How can you toss these kids in the deep end and expect them to swim? Would you take a person who with only moderate swimming skills and toss them into the ocean and expect them to stay afloat? If you want to get more African-Americans in college, then AA isn't the answer because it does NOTHING to address academic capabilities. Address the problem at the K-12 level. Have any of you ever considered the possibility that the reason that there are so few black students in colleges like UofM is because DPS has a graduation rate of ~50%? How many black Juniors in Detroit high schools are taking the ACT? Maybe 20%? Of course there are going to be few black students at UofM if the applicant pool is that reduced, simply letting in any black student who applies isn't going to help the 4 in 10 who will dropout of UofM because they still won't have the academic tools and abilities needed to succeed. Fix the DPS first. Raise the graduation rates. Get more black students interested in college, get more of them to take the ACT. Work on improving the academic performance BEFORE they apply to college. Sending them to UofM without the academic experience and skills that they should have gotten in high school isn't going to help many of them and it will end up hurting 40% of them who maybe could have done better in a school more in-line with their academic merits. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 614 Registered: 06-2006 |
Warrior fan is spot on...and for as long as AA continues to exists, no one is going to lift a finger to fix the problems at the K-12 level...no one in gov't will want to allocate the necessary funding to bring urban school districts up to par with their suburban counterparts...they'll just say, "yeah, there are discrepancies in the quality of education between white and minority students, but we have AA to make up for that." Meanwhile, even with AA, fewer minority students apply to college than what they account for in the general population percentagewise, and even fewer actually graduate... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 409 Registered: 04-2006 |
"The day the oppressors claim to be the oppressed is the day that I realize who I can no longer trust to deal with me in reality." I'm with you on this one. "Warrior fan is spot on...and for as long as AA continues to exists, no one is going to lift a finger to fix the problems at the K-12 level...no one in gov't will want to allocate the necessary funding to bring urban school districts up to par with their suburban counterparts..." Yeah, because California really went to the line for their inner-city schools didn't they? Oh wait... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 616 Registered: 06-2006 |
they're doing something right in CA considering that the minorities that get admitted to public universities are actually graduating now... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 625 Registered: 06-2006 |
Fewer minority hopefuls get into U-M http://www.lansingstatejournal .com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID =/20070220/NEWS01/702200333 My take on the article posted above: While the goal of Prop 2 is not to reduce the number of minority applicants in MI colleges (some of you will swear that it is, but it's not) a reduction is nonetheless an incidental result of fixing the broken AA system, and information from the article above seems to suggest that U of M is at least attempting somewhat to follow the law... I also find it interesting that the schools cannot consider race/gender/etc. in admissions yet they still collect the data from the appliations...which is why, if I were a white student with borderline academic credentials applying to U of M right now, I would check the box that says I'm an underrepresented minority to ensure that I would benefit from any lingering preference they still might give to these groups...because once they admit me and find out I'm actually a white guy, they would have no basis for revoking me acceptance since, by doing so, they'd be admitting that the did consider my race when granting me admission, which is no longer permitted | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 413 Registered: 04-2006 |
But that would clearly be against the guidelines of the application. They track the data because they are required to do so by the federal government. | ||
Mw2gs Member Username: Mw2gs Post Number: 253 Registered: 03-2005 |
Warriorfan.....Thanks for that tidbit of information....I had no idea that the majority of UM's black applicant pool are former DPS students. Its amazing that there is a direct link between black student performance at the UM and the performance of DPS students. The scary thing is that you, and others like yourself, actually believe the dumb shit you come up with to justify your covert actions. | ||
Detroit_stylin Member Username: Detroit_stylin Post Number: 3858 Registered: 10-2003 |
thewannabejesus clearly shows his true mindset since he seems to be the only one obsessed with making sure that white men are no longer oppressed... Stats be damned... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 414 Registered: 04-2006 |
"they're doing something right in CA considering that the minorities that get admitted to public universities are actually graduating now..." Yeah, because no minorities ever graduated from U-M. Oh wait... | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 627 Registered: 06-2006 |
Detroit_stylin: When did I ever say that white men are oppressed? Things are great for white men. I love being a white man. It's great! | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5548 Registered: 02-2004 |
Affirmative Action policies and quotas in Michigan is OUT! ILLEGAL the people YES on Prop. 2 ending Affirmative Action policies in all college admissions by means of race and gender. U of M should get over it and accept everyone by grades ONLY! | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 290 Registered: 11-2005 |
Yes! What this world needs is more white privilege! Let's stop thinking about the minorities and start helping white people! And while we're at it, let's not only keep gender and race out of admissions, but grades and test scores, too!!! Hey, requiring good grades is discriminating against the stupid people. I still can't believe that Prop. 2 passed. Of course, this state also banned gay marriage. Of course, as our state's economy has shown, we're not exactly the most forward-thinking and visionary state in the union. Oh well, at least we're not Wyoming. | ||
Danny Member Username: Danny Post Number: 5558 Registered: 02-2004 |
Rhymeswithrawk, Affirmative Action is segregation in reverse letting "COLORED ONLY" folks into colleges and workplaces. Minorities abuse Affirmative Action programs and treated as JIM CROW against white people and violate their civil rights thus creating societal atmosphere where minorities could bend rules to achive the American dream. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 297 Registered: 11-2005 |
Puh-lease, Danny. I take it you grew up in Howell or something? That is some real ignorant b.s. | ||
Everyman Member Username: Everyman Post Number: 64 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi all, been awhile since I posted here. Here's a Stanford Law Review article by Richard Sander that addresses what warrior fan advanced: http://www.law.ucla.edu/sander /Systemic/final/SanderFINAL.pd f In short, it's likely that AA programs actually *hurt* students. Overwhelmingly, the bottom decile and quartile at law schools are composed of the minority students. Why? I don't think it's a stretch to say many of them are playing on a different field. At the school I go to, the median LSAT is 170 (98th percentile of the test, which is an automatic proxy for the MENSA test and grants automatic admission to that society). Meanwhile, a number of minorities, among whom are two of my closest friends in the world, matriculated with sub-160 scores. So they aren't in the same ballpark w/r/t logical talent, which really is frustrating come exam time. And save the "test-bias" argument, since the LSAT measures logic and doesn't even touch upon any learned subject such as math, science, or history. In fact, shapes could be substituted and it'll be substantially the same. But since the school is ranked highly enough that they and most others are essentially guaranteed jobs, they end up in BIGLAW. What happens there? They burn out after 2-5 years and don't make partner, where the big bucks are. And it's frustrating b/c these are my closest people. My best friend's sister just lateraled from her NYC firm b/c she missed out on partnership. She's personable, hot/attractive, and smart as a whip, but not so stratospherically smart as to create the work product and advance her career. All fairness/justice arguments aside, I really buy into the "AA hurts minorities" argument in some (many?) cases because I've seen it firsthand. It amounts in many cases to setting people up for failure, which I don't think *anyone* sane/with a heart on either side wants to see. | ||
Mgd04 Member Username: Mgd04 Post Number: 165 Registered: 05-2005 |
Interesting article. Re: legacy points I think they are a good thing in the long run. They were used to help the privileged but as more and more minorities graduate from universities their children will also receive legacy points. I think it would be great for a proud african american mother/father to know that their son/daughter will get a little extra boost (little being the key word) when they apply to their alma matter. This is all assuming more minoritise attend and graduate from universities which hopefully AA is accomplishing now. (Message edited by mgd04 on February 23, 2007) | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 642 Registered: 06-2006 |
Thanks for posting that article Everyman...I'm only about 1/4 way through it at the moment but I got the gist of it by now, and I've actually been trying to find an in-depth analysis that someone did like this for a while | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 423 Registered: 04-2006 |
I love it when white people write papers about the minority experience. Pat yourselves on the back because you're telling yourselves what you already thought. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 643 Registered: 06-2006 |
lhearthed: Thank you for that fine example of what's wrong in our state. You are part of the problem that we're trying to correct. Instead of judging the article by its content and the substance of its positions, you're judging it by the skin color of the author. But I would have at least though the fact that the author is the parent of a bi-racial child would have given him some credibility with your ilk. Guess not though, since his views are contrary to your own. Which leads me to my next point... Whenever a minority offers views that are contrary to the popular views of minorities, they just get dismissed as "Uncle Toms" or the "white man's boy" anyway...just look at how individuals such as Roderick Paige, Condi Rice, Colin Powell, Justice Thomas and Ward Connerly are treated by the black community... You can't have it both ways there, princess. You can't complain when a non-minority is offering an opinion on the basis of who is giving it, and then dismiss the same opinion when it's a minority offering it simply because you don't agree with it... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 424 Registered: 04-2006 |
"Thank you for that fine example of what's wrong in our state." LOL. GTF outta here with that whole "argument". At the very least it was comical, and a very "fine example of what's wrong in our" COUNTRY. Having a "biracial" kid does not give you a free pass to seeing the world through the eyes of the minority. What he needs to do is stop using his child as a qualifier of his "authority" to speak on the issue. He won't see the world the way his child will see it. The world won't see him the way they see his child. He obviously doesn't understand that to even utter those words. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 644 Registered: 06-2006 |
I see...so you'd value the results of his study only if HE were a minority? Somehow this makes the stats he cites more accurate? Got it. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 425 Registered: 04-2006 |
Well, stats are as accurate as the way you word it... so I guess that's exactly what I'm saying. | ||
Nainrouge Member Username: Nainrouge Post Number: 170 Registered: 05-2006 |
Does that mean that minority social scientists are also unable to comment on any issues related to white society? That will put a number of folks out of a job. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 645 Registered: 06-2006 |
Nainrouge: No. And if you think that, then you are 'the racist'. | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 426 Registered: 04-2006 |
What is white society? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 646 Registered: 06-2006 |
the way white people relate to each other socially? | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 427 Registered: 04-2006 |
Think it over and then try again. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 649 Registered: 06-2006 |
black society with white people? | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 676 Registered: 06-2006 |
Granholm using taxpayer dollars to fight affirmative action ban that was approved by taxpayers.... http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070227/NEW S06/702270303 | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 445 Registered: 04-2006 |
Not all taxpayers voted for it. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 678 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Not all taxpayers voted for it." Now if only that were relevant... | ||
Iheartthed Member Username: Iheartthed Post Number: 446 Registered: 04-2006 |
Ahh, I get it. It's only relevant when it's inline with your opinion? Okay, I get ya. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 679 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Ahh, I get it. It's only relevant when it's inline with your opinion? Okay, I get ya." wow...just, wow | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5165 Registered: 10-2003 |
Iheartthed, Why even bother? It's time to let this thread die. If jesus (I still can't get over the name) wants to keep bumping this to get his/her/its own jollies, let him/her/it. | ||
Thejesus Member Username: Thejesus Post Number: 684 Registered: 06-2006 |
"I still can't get over the name" lemme guess...you think Jesus would have supported AA, right? | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5167 Registered: 10-2003 |
I don't bother myself with those types of questions. I'm not a Christian. And, if I was, I wouldn't pimp out Jesus like so many that claim him often do. |
