  Johnberk Member Username: Johnberk Post Number: 53 Registered: 11-2003 |
Andrew Anthos, a 72-year-old gay Detroit man, has been hospitalized since he was savagely attacked in an anti-GLBT hate crime on Feb. 13 and is currently fighting for his life in Detroit’s Receiving Hospital. http://www.tri.org/violence/at tack.html | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 627 Registered: 11-2003 |
I recall talking to him at one of the festivals downtown about eight to ten years ago. I recognized him when I saw the Capitol building and the American flag. A lot of people are easy to forget after you talk to them, he certainly isn't one of them. Sad. It had to be an absolutely brutal attack to leave him in that condition. (Message edited by rjk on February 23, 2007) | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2453 Registered: 02-2005 |
http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=20077022304 14 Hate crime or not...just sick. | ||
Superduperman Member Username: Superduperman Post Number: 204 Registered: 01-2005 |
Was he the guy that used to be in Greektown singing wearing a robe in the summer? | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 317 Registered: 11-2006 |
Shit, that does look like "Jean Vegas" the greektown performer. He said he was going to retire last summer because no one appreciated him. Well, damnit, I did. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5149 Registered: 10-2003 |
He'd become a kind of celebrity, here in Lansing, with his wish to have the dome of the capitol lits in red, white, and blue for the 4th of July. The paper would do stories on his proposal, and it always made sense to me. This is just sick and sad. Here's a column in Lansing State Journal's on him and the incident: http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070223/COLUM NISTS09/702230350 | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 656 Registered: 08-2005 |
And yet the City STILL refuses to let Sheriff's Deputies provide security on board city buses. This could have been prevented. | ||
Johnberk Member Username: Johnberk Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2003 |
Good point, Warriorfan, I forgot that story was in the news just one week ago: Council rejects putting deputies on buses | ||
Psip Member Username: Psip Post Number: 1432 Registered: 04-2005 |
TV 2 just reported he has passed away. | ||
Spiritofdetroit Member Username: Spiritofdetroit Post Number: 319 Registered: 11-2006 |
Oh no. So sad. I purchased a card today for my favorite Detroit entertainer... He'll be missed | ||
Nighternock Member Username: Nighternock Post Number: 12 Registered: 02-2007 |
Terrible that things like this still happen in 2007  | ||
Imperfectly Member Username: Imperfectly Post Number: 208 Registered: 06-2004 |
This is just horrible. And terrifying since I live very near there. I am sickened by this. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5157 Registered: 10-2003 |
Another Lansing State Journal blurb: http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070224/NEWS0 1/70224001 I always thought his idea to light the capitol dome different colors for different holidays was a great idea. Hopefully, someone in the legislator of the executive office will push for this to happen in his memory since he tried tirelessly for something that would require almost nothing to do. What an incredibly heinous and senseless crime. (Message edited by lmichigan on February 24, 2007) | ||
Dds Member Username: Dds Post Number: 139 Registered: 10-2006 |
What's even more of a crime is that no one attempted to help out, and there is no one stepping up to act as a witness to give a better description of the murderer. Heard that from an interview with Jeff Montgomery this afternoon. | ||
Johnberk Member Username: Johnberk Post Number: 55 Registered: 11-2003 |
The following arrangements have been made for his funeral: Public viewing and visitation from 2 - 9 PM on Tuesday, February 27. Funeral service will be held at 1PM on Wednesday, February 28. The viewing and service will be at the Ford Funeral Home, 26560 Van Dyke; Center Line, MI 48015 (586) 754-2464 For information regarding the investigation please contact Melissa Pope, Triangle Foundation's Director of Victim Services at melissa@tri.org or (313) 537-3323 x112. | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1940 Registered: 11-2004 |
quote: And remarkable given the fact that the bus stop is about 150 feet from the door of his apartment building, in the Lafayette Park neighborhood which is quite densely populated. Anyone wondering why "the gays" don't come into Detroit and do some sprucing up should look no further than this incident. There is NEVER any good news for the gay community in Detroit - it's always bad news. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 329 Registered: 11-2005 |
Wow. I interviewed him for The State News probably five or six years ago. Really nice man. Really devoted to his cause. It is a complete shock that something like this is still happening, especially in Michigan. While the state did feel it necessary to ban gay marriage, this isn't Wyoming or Alabama or Texas. Such a barbarian act. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1739 Registered: 06-2004 |
Why is it a complete shock that a gay guy gets killed in a city that has a lot of homicide? Is it any worse than the girl killed outside of Red Square during Super Bowl week allegedly for using 'nigger' as an epithet? Is it any worse than a homeless guy beaten to death? So now the gay community has an image they can hold up as their experience of violence in the City of Detroit. Welcome to the club. Now will you help do something about it or will you just walk away and leave trying to fix it to others? | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1941 Registered: 11-2004 |
Lilpup, did you even read the article? The guy was harrassed on the bus and then FOLLOWED and murdered, for being gay. And this "so now the gay community has an image" thing is bs. As if this were the first thing. Why the hell do you think all the gay folks left Palmer Park 20 years ago? This isn't specifically a Detroit thing. It's a state and regional thing. The atmosphere for gay people is very negative. I personally think the gay community should walk away from Detroit and Michigan. If you have no family or job obligations here and you are gay or lesbian, go to Chicago where they actually want you. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 6369 Registered: 09-2005 |
Uh, Detroit has been the murder capital off and on for years. Headlines: "The guy was harrassed on the bus and then FOLLOWED and murdered, for being gay." "The guy was harrassed on the bus and then FOLLOWED and murdered, for being black." "The guy was harrassed on the bus and then FOLLOWED and murdered, for being white." "The guy was harrassed on the bus and then FOLLOWED and murdered, for being poor." "The guy was harrassed on the bus and then FOLLOWED and murdered, for being rich." Substitute "murdered" for "raped" Substitute "guy" for "girl" Get in line. And if you think Dialh's suggestion of moving to Chicago will help, you're just following a trend that all of the above have done in Detroit for decades. | ||
Warriorfan Member Username: Warriorfan Post Number: 660 Registered: 08-2005 |
Karl, can you cite any specific examples within the past year of someone being murdered in Detroit for being white, poor, rich, or black? | ||
Kronprinz Member Username: Kronprinz Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2006 |
"this isn't Wyoming or Alabama or Texas." what an uninformed statement. birmingham (al), austin, dallas, houston, all have large and out gay communities, particularly austin. i've lived many places and michigan doesn't have a reputation of being particularly enlightened toward the gay community. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 6371 Registered: 09-2005 |
Gosh Warrior, I checked, and no - all the murders in Detroit were committed simply because someone wanted to pull a trigger or push a blade. No reason whatsoever. It is only the gay community that is truly targeted in Detroit, all others are just casual encounters. Really, if the gay community, in Detroit of all places, thinks that an uptick based on one murder elevates their status as "victim" you've got alot to learn about murder and Detroit. Murder is sad and senseless. As I said, get in line. | ||
Goat Member Username: Goat Post Number: 9243 Registered: 10-2003 |
What is even worse is that this isn't the first attack against gay people in Detroit and it certainly won't be the last. | ||
Dialh4hipster Member Username: Dialh4hipster Post Number: 1945 Registered: 11-2004 |
Let's see, *I* checked, and discovered that murder typically involves this thing called a "motive." So sure, some murders happen because someone just has that pesky urge to "pull a trigger or push a blade." But typically you'll find there's more to it. Brainiac. Besides, don't you live in Arizona or something? What qualifications do you have to comment on the state of ANYTHING in Detroit. Shoo! Back to non-detroit issues with you! | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 6375 Registered: 09-2005 |
Dial, if you didn't pick up just a bit of sarcasm in my post, you can adopt that "brainiac" label. Sometimes I'm in AZ, but not at the moment. I guess murder is strictly a Detroit thing? Again, "brainiac" for you. | ||
Outoftowner Member Username: Outoftowner Post Number: 150 Registered: 10-2003 |
"this isn't Wyoming or Alabama or Texas." "What an uninformed statement." Really? I thought it was right on. Detroit, Michigan. | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2006 |
It's not that this man being killed because he was gay makes it any worse than anyone else for being anything else. The biggest difference by far is that gay people have more mobility and will not stick around if they feel that they are being targeted. The elderly man was killed with out provocation, beyond the fact that he was gay. In the end I feel that saying that it is okay that he was killed because of lots of people have been killed in Detroit is crazy. Try being sympathetic. | ||
Karl Member Username: Karl Post Number: 6377 Registered: 09-2005 |
6nois, with all due respect: Sympathy has done nothing to solve the problem over the years, and now it has come to this. Senseless. Seemingly unsolvable. If Detroit is to rise from the ashes, it will take more than sympathy. It all starts in the home. May I (once again) suggest the hard medicine of Bill Cosby as a first step. | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 63 Registered: 11-2006 |
Bill Cosby could have done great things if he had approached the issue in a sensitive way but everyone just discounts him as a loon now. People working together, of all races, creeds, and sexualities, is going to do the most in fixing Detroit. There is total break down of communication between groups. And until people are willing to set aside their differences and work together instead of being so positive everyone is out to get them. Detroit will not change. There are always going to be people with less than optimal upbringings. You can't change that, but you can help prevent crime and make the city a better place by teamwork. | ||
Spaceboykelly Member Username: Spaceboykelly Post Number: 210 Registered: 04-2005 |
And there goes yet another Detroityes thread. Dialh: Gays [like you and I] should not walk away from the city of Detroit. We should instead press the city with some outrage about the recent bus decision, about the sometimes shaky reputation the city sometimes has with queer people, and about the fact that a murder happened right after a man left a bus in a relatively nice/dense area. Also, we should - as Detroiters - ask ourselves what exactly breeds this sort of thing and what we can do within the city [perhaps culturally] to prevent it. I think it is unfortunate that you don't want to help institute change. Lilpup & Karl, The reason why hate crime legislation exists is because a hate crime is akin in some ways to ideas like ethnic cleansing and the Holocaust. The act of killing someone because of their ethnicity, [trans?]gender, sexuality, and so on is not the same thing as killing someone over drugs or money. Both are horrible acts [and both have the same outcome], however one is based on ideology. It is easier for someone to understand such legislation when he/she has been a victim of discrimination based on sexuality or ethnicity in the past. Maybe it is because we don't want to have to be in the closet in our case [or because a woman does not want to hide her burka etc.] This is a total shame. I proudly tell friends who question me about living in the city of Detroit that it is a great place to live and that I am never discriminated against here due to my sexuality. I'm willing to bet Andrew Anthos was also a proud Detroiter. I hope that this will piss complacent people off... people who might not otherwise care about queer issues or city buses. | ||
Carolcb Member Username: Carolcb Post Number: 97 Registered: 11-2006 |
What a kind face! It is so sad....if there is a better place, I hope he is there. | ||
Johnberk Member Username: Johnberk Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2003 |
Police have released a sketch of a man wanted in connection with this case. Anyone with information is asked to call Detroit Police at (313) 596-2260 or anonymously call 1-800-SPEAK-UP. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1796 Registered: 06-2004 |
so they must have found a witness | ||
Misssocks Member Username: Misssocks Post Number: 20 Registered: 06-2006 |
The whole concept of "hate crimes" is an attempt to offer special rights to protected groups, (i.e., gays). What it is in reality is legislating THOUGHT. The act of murder is already illegal. Branding the murder a "hate crime" simply piles an additional charge on top of it...what the murderer what THINKING before he committed the act. | ||
Ramcharger Member Username: Ramcharger Post Number: 217 Registered: 05-2006 |
What a murderer is thinking before he or she commits the crime is relevant to the sentence received. That's why there are categories such as 1st degree murder, 2nd degree murder, etc. This is hardly a new concept. | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 130 Registered: 03-2006 |
"special rights"? "Protected groups"? Give me a break. The person killed is dead. They're not in ANY group, and not subject to ANY rights. And it's not like we "protect" gays in this country, and they certainly don't have any "special rights" while alive. Hell, they can't even get married: Too many nosey people butting in on their lives. I wish people would at least get new talking points from time to time. The old ones are just stupid, and don't stand up to any intelligent analysis. But viewpoints based on neurosis and fear seldom do. | ||
Misssocks Member Username: Misssocks Post Number: 21 Registered: 06-2006 |
Premeditated murder is indeed considered different from a "crime of passion" but that is different from adding a separate and additional charge based on the general mindset of any given individual. This is why you can sit around talking about how much you hate gays or blacks with a bunch of your buddies but if you change the topic to your plans to rob a bank, you're committing an act of conspiracy. Gays are "protected" in that it seems to be perfectly okay to "hate" women and methodically murder them, like Ted Bundy, but there is no lobby to protect females as a class (because it's absurd). The Matthew Shepard case is a perfect example. How many women have been out with a couple of guys and raped and left for dead since the beginning of time? | ||
Rampartstreetnorth Member Username: Rampartstreetnorth Post Number: 15 Registered: 07-2006 |
Balderdash! Those opposing hate crime laws always use murder as an example, but for several reasons using murder as an example is deceptive. This is because murder of any kind is already the most extreme form of crime, and although there are degrees (first, second etc.) all murders are taken seriously. But...most crimes, and most hate crimes, do not involve murder. Instead, they involve less dramatic acts whose impact is in fact made much more serious by the addition of the element of hate. For example; the person who spray paints "Elvis lives!" on the side of a convenience store and the person who spray paints "Kill Jews!!!" on the side of a synagogue have NOT committed equivalent acts of vandalism. The first case is vandalism as a prank. The second is vandalism designed to instill fear and intimidate an entire group of people through advocacy of their murder. Random "desecration" of a business establishment and targeted desecration of a house of worship have a completely different intent and different effect, and therefore one is far more serious than the other. This is because acts such as desecration of synagogues (or targeting members of specific groups for violence) strike at a central premise of American freedom, i.e., that law abiding individuals have a right to live peacefully in their communities even if they are different from those around them. Adding additional penalties for acts motivated by hatred--the targeting of individuals based upon some stigmatized difference--recognizes this fact, and is therefore appropriate as a measure intended to preserve an invaluable tradition of liberty, and that is the right to be different without fear of reprisal as a consequence. Missocks wrote; The whole concept of "hate crimes" is an attempt to offer special rights to protected groups, (i.e., gays). What it is in reality is legislating THOUGHT. The act of murder is already illegal. Branding the murder a "hate crime" simply piles an additional charge on top of it...what the murderer what THINKING before he committed the act. | ||
Bte_in_va Member Username: Bte_in_va Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2006 |
so I guess all you folks here supporting "hate crimes" legislation want to see the killer sent to death row up there in michigan?? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1810 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: ?? am I missing the sarcasm or are you unaware of our death penalty laws? | ||
Bte_in_va Member Username: Bte_in_va Post Number: 8 Registered: 12-2006 |
let me guess, Michigan has no death penalty ? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1811 Registered: 06-2004 |
and we have a winner! | ||
Bte_in_va Member Username: Bte_in_va Post Number: 9 Registered: 12-2006 |
well, since you support additional penalties for crimes if the victim is a part of a protected class, then based on your logic you should be demanding the death penalty when the murder victim is a special class as well.... life imprisonment for killing a hetero father of 3 death penalty for killing a gay activist | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1812 Registered: 06-2004 |
burned any crosses with your buddies in white lately? | ||
Bte_in_va Member Username: Bte_in_va Post Number: 10 Registered: 12-2006 |
good comeback when you cant make an argument... and why do you assume i am white, are you saying blacks cant be opposed to hate crime legislation (i.e. placing one victim on a higher pedestal than other victims of equal crimes)?? | ||
Citylover Member Username: Citylover Post Number: 2195 Registered: 07-2004 |
damn good points from both bte_in_ va and missocks........ | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1813 Registered: 06-2004 |
making no assumptions - anybody's capable of cross burning | ||
Bte_in_va Member Username: Bte_in_va Post Number: 11 Registered: 12-2006 |
^again, another great well thought out rebuttal, i bring up valid points, you respond with childish remarks... what next, a rebel flag reference?? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1815 Registered: 06-2004 |
your points display an inadequate understanding of the hate crime laws | ||
Bte_in_va Member Username: Bte_in_va Post Number: 12 Registered: 12-2006 |
your responses display a level of immaturity that leaves you incapable of creating a valid argument.... let me guess, you oppose the death penalty but you support hate crime legislation? so what other way do apply "additional" penalties to somebody facing life in prison for killing a gay/minority/whatever vs a non-protected class? if you say additional years, there is no net effect because the criminal will still be in the slammer for life, whether its life + 10, +50, whatever...based on your demand for additional punishments for so called "hate crimes" , and based on your own logic that you have demonstrated, you have no choice but to give the killer of a straight father of 3 life while the killer of a gay man would get the death penalty....i mean, you gotta punish him additionally for the fact that the victim was gay, right????? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1817 Registered: 06-2004 |
no - if a gay guy gets killed or injured in a robbery it's not a hate crime if a white straight guy gets killed or injured by a black guy when the black guy has been shooting off his mouth about sticking honkies or damned whiteys it's a hate crime if an Asian guy gets killed or injured by a mixed group of black and white guys who are bitching about Asians and the Asian auto industry it's a hate crime there is no single protected group it's all about the motivation for the attack and, as Rampart posted above, murder isn't the best example for application of the hate crime law - it's most often applied in cases of assault, harassment, intimidation, vandalism, etc. | ||
Rampartstreetnorth Member Username: Rampartstreetnorth Post Number: 18 Registered: 07-2006 |
Under hate crime laws the "protected class" can include any person if hate is demonstrated as a motive. Bte wrote; well, since you support additional penalties for crimes if the victim is a part of a protected class, then based on your logic you should be demanding the death penalty when the murder victim is a special class as well.... life imprisonment for killing a hetero father of 3 death penalty for killing a gay activist | ||
Dalangdon Member Username: Dalangdon Post Number: 131 Registered: 03-2006 |
And don't forget - a straight guy could be bashed or killed by someone who thought he "looked gay", and that would be a hate crime. | ||
Bte_in_va Member Username: Bte_in_va Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2006 |
oh, so its yet another example of our society going to a "touchy, feely, emotions" society....isnt "hate" a part of every crime? i mean, if i stole your bike from outside your apt could it be said i hate you for having a bike while i dont, so i stole your bike? | ||
Rampartstreetnorth Member Username: Rampartstreetnorth Post Number: 19 Registered: 07-2006 |
No, Bte, all it would mean is that you are a thief who wanted my bike. (Message edited by RampartStreetNorth on March 09, 2007) | ||
Rampartstreetnorth Member Username: Rampartstreetnorth Post Number: 20 Registered: 07-2006 |
An attorney I know down south once brought a case against a cop who roughed up a jogger and called him a fag when he found him in a park late at night, because he assumed he was cruising. In fact, the guy was a married heterosexual man with children who just liked to run late at night because it was cooler then, but that didn't stop the cop from expressing his anti-gay bias with violence directed against a heterosexual man. Dalongdon wrote; And don't forget - a straight guy could be bashed or killed by someone who thought he "looked gay", and that would be a hate crime. | ||
Bte_in_va Member Username: Bte_in_va Post Number: 14 Registered: 12-2006 |
but you had no respect for the laws and values that keep our society together, which would be on par with hate... | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1819 Registered: 06-2004 |
no, that is not on par with hate One incident here saw a young man hold up a store with a sawed off shotgun. He apologized to the clerk during the robbery and explained he had no money but had kids to feed. No hate there. | ||
Rampartstreetnorth Member Username: Rampartstreetnorth Post Number: 21 Registered: 07-2006 |
Now you are engaged in a truly tortured argument, saying that "would be on a par with hate" equals hate. Asserting that it "would be" doesn't make it so, and contempt for the law doesn't = hate any more than an alligator pear = an alligator. Bte wrote; but you had no respect for the laws and values that keep our society together, which would be on par with hate... (Message edited by RampartStreetNorth on March 09, 2007) (Message edited by RampartStreetNorth on March 09, 2007) | ||
Bte_in_va Member Username: Bte_in_va Post Number: 15 Registered: 12-2006 |
i am glad you goose-steppers are comfortable with legislating feelings such as hate, etc vs actual actions towards other individuals......"you can slice my throat if you want Mr. Killer, just don't do it based on hate I beg you!!!" | ||
6nois Member Username: 6nois Post Number: 96 Registered: 11-2006 |
I am confused as to what you don't understand about motive. There can be many reasons someones kills and not all of them are based on hate. | ||
Misssocks Member Username: Misssocks Post Number: 22 Registered: 06-2006 |
"Adding additional penalties for acts motivated by hatred--the targeting of individuals based upon some stigmatized difference--recognizes this fact, and is therefore appropriate as a measure intended to preserve an invaluable tradition of liberty, and that is the right to be different without fear of reprisal as a consequence." This concept is so completely fucked up...do you realize you're okaying the idea of the designation of "acceptable" thought? I'm sure you feel that no reasonable person would be racist or sexist or maybe even eat meat or refuse to recycle or whatever the fuck you consider the way a "normal," "intelligent" person would choose to conduct one's life...but to support the idea that legislating any sort of mindframe in the interest of changing the way individual people think...is sick. What do you suppose the purpose of "hate crime" legislation is? To change the mindset of the "criminal"? Or to deter such crimes by the additional charge? Isn't that really rather Orwellian? | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1825 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote:no, it's not about whether one has the thoughts or emotions, it's about whether one acts on the thoughts or emotions if they are present expressing hateful thoughts or emotions, within limits, is legal - hence KKK rallies with police protection - providing one stops short of inciting riots, etc. | ||
Rampartstreetnorth Member Username: Rampartstreetnorth Post Number: 30 Registered: 07-2006 |
Ya know, Missocks, I do in fact think that the principle of American liberty is founded upon certain ideological principles (such as those quoted below) and that it is a legitimate purposes of government to protect those ideals. Do you disagree? "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men..." | ||
Rampartstreetnorth Member Username: Rampartstreetnorth Post Number: 31 Registered: 07-2006 |
Missocks, NO ONE here proposes criminalizing thought, only action based upon thought, and, in fact, that is done all the time--hence the difference in criminal penalty between negligent homicide and first degree murder. Do you also find it "sick" to add a stiffer penalty based upon the "mindframe" of the one who kills? | ||
Misssocks Member Username: Misssocks Post Number: 23 Registered: 06-2006 |
'Do you also find it "sick" to add a stiffer penalty based upon the "mindframe" of the one who kills?' Yes. That's my point. One who kills should be charged with killing. Not with killing AND hating gays. I mean, look at the example above where the guy robbed the store to feed his kids or whatever...using hate crime logic...since his reasoning is so honorable, should his degree of punishment be reduced? Or is it simply illegal to hold up a store, and your motivation is immaterial? Are certain emotions and motivations acceptable? "Action based on thought" is already written into law. We're not automatons. Clearly thought is involved in everything we do. My issue is making certain thoughts a crime, bringing additional charges. | ||
Rampartstreetnorth Member Username: Rampartstreetnorth Post Number: 34 Registered: 07-2006 |
So then, Missocks, you believe that the one who kills with a "mindframe" of INTENT to kill and one who kills with a mindframe of NO INTENT to kill should be punished identically based on the outcome that both have killed? | ||
Misssocks Member Username: Misssocks Post Number: 24 Registered: 06-2006 |
You mean if someone kills a person by accident versus intentionally setting out to kill them? Manslaughter? I don't understand how that concept relates to this discussion. |
