Discuss Detroit » Archives - Beginning January 2007 » Is Royal Oak Overpriced? » Is Royal Oak Overpriced? - 1 « Previous Next »
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 33
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 5:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So I'm helping my friend look for an place in Royal Oak, and I'm noticing the homeowners and real estate agents are completely bonkers. Despite the fact that nothing is moving and tons of condos and homes are available for rent, prices remain ridiculous.

It's as if homeowners think they are unaffected by Detroit's economic problems and glut in housing inventory. Prices within walking distance of downtown are almost as bad as in Birmingham, even though Birmingham is much wealthier, has far better schools, and is a safer blue-chip investment.

Even crazier is the delusional marketing. The agents think Royal Oak is another Tribeca or South Beach. For example, does Crooks and 14 Mile Road conjure images of "hip and sophisticated" and "zen gardens"? Apparently this property owner ("Urbane Apartments", give me a break) thinks crappy postwar rentals can be marketed just like real urban dwellings.

http://detroit.craigslist.org/ apa/285992310.html

Another annoying trend is that EVERYTHING built in recent years is marketed as "lofts." Lofts are converted industrial structures with open floorplans. A residence with fully separate rooms it is NOT a loft. I guess developers think people are stupid enough to think that higher ceilings and exposed piping= loft.

I find that all this real estate nonsense is strictly within Royal Oak city limits. What is up with Royal Oak?
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 929
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 6:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I couldn't agree more Crawford with everything you've said. Royal Oak continues to fail to market it's real assets, it's tight-knit older 1920's neighborhoods, that are close to the downtown core (some of which is being torn down to build utter crap, just drive down Fourth St. east of Woodward).

I say help your friend see the light. Move your friend to Detroit.
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 34
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 6:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Unfortunately my friend insists upon Oakland County. I think condo owners in Royal Oak could be headed for a big fall, especially if Detroit really gathers some momentum.

Royal Oak is a nice older suburb, but it's hardly urban or hip. There are some good restaurants and nice walkable tree-lined residential streets, but it's no different from hundreds of other communities in the U.S. I guess Royal Oak is hyped because so many suburbanites are fearful of Detroit and therefore want to create an alternative urban experience.
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Jjw
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Username: Jjw

Post Number: 266
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 6:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Anyone watch the HGTV Househunters episode on buying in Royal Oak?? Three really uglyyyyy places to choose from. Anyway, if Royal Oak is overpriced, I personally don't see why. There are some great areas in the city that I think would outbeat RO in quality. Just my two cents.
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Fishtoes2000
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Username: Fishtoes2000

Post Number: 178
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 6:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Urbane Apartments is not in Royal Oak.
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Gdub
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Username: Gdub

Post Number: 1085
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 6:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That craigslist ad is hilarious. I see where those red monkeybar things from Washington Blvd. ended up. Some of my favorite amenities, too, no doubt: "a wall of windows, black-on-black appliances, exposed steel beams, brand new berber carpeting..." Steel beams! Awesoome, dood! And, of course, they have a f'ing MySpace page. A MySpace page for a rental management company. Bet they're just racking up 'friends' by the hour.
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Rampartstreetnorth
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Username: Rampartstreetnorth

Post Number: 1
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 6:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My wife and I moved to metro Detroit from New Orleans following Katrina, and ended up buying a house in Royal Oak.

We chose Royal Oak because while it isn't exactly like what we left behind we liked the fact that Royal Oak has some nice older architecture, an identifiable, cohesive downtown, lots of restaurants, bars and clubs and lots of life on the street when the weather is good. Sadly, we found that in this freeway oriented metro area there aren't many places which fit that description.

Compared to the neighborhood I left behind in New Orleans (the Faubourg Marigny, next to the French Quarter) housing in Royal Oak is about 2/3rds the price we were used to, plus the level of public services is much better.

Having said those things I agree with other posters that the economic and political leadership in R.O. is making a mistake by trying to turn the town into something it really isn't. Royal Oak has legitimate assets in its existing neighborhoods; no matter how hard they try it will never be another South Beach, and there's the danger that in the attempted makeover R.O. will lose (and I know some say has lost) much of what makes it attractive in the first place.

(Message edited by RampartStreetNorth on February 28, 2007)
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Gdub
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Username: Gdub

Post Number: 1086
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 6:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rampart, I sold a house to a couple from N.O. last year after Katrina. They bought in Hamtramck because they said it sort of reminded them of N.O. (and it was close to the Humane Society where one of the couple, a veterinarian, worked).
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Superduperman
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Username: Superduperman

Post Number: 217
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 6:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I made that same argument about what a real loft is months ago and had people jump down my throat about it here on the forum.
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Detroitplanner
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Username: Detroitplanner

Post Number: 1036
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've often thought the same about the price of housing in Midtown/Cass Corridor/Brush Park. It costs an awful lot for what you get.
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Rampartstreetnorth
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Username: Rampartstreetnorth

Post Number: 2
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 7:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

According to the National Association of Realtors the midwest as a region has the lowest average housing prices in the country, and metro Detroit housing prices are among the lowest of all major cities in the midwest region.

I know that this is partly because of a locally depressed economy, but placed in a national perspective that makes Detroit area real estate a bargain. Recessions never last forever, and in the long run these relatively low housing costs are an asset which can be used as one piece of the solution to attracting new investment.

http://www.realtor.org/Researc h.nsf/files/MSAPRICESF.xls/$FILE/MSAPRICESF.xls
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Wilus1mj
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Username: Wilus1mj

Post Number: 173
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 7:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Try Hazel Park/Ferndale/Clawson/Berkley. ...close to Royal Oak and Detroit, but at a 20-30% discount.
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 35
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 7:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rampartstreet, a market can be dirt cheap and headed for a fall or crazy expensive and still undervalued. NYC, Paris, London and Tokyo are all expensive, yet are probably among the safest long-term investments anywhere, while Flint and Saginaw are cheap(er) but probably not reliable long-term bets.

Wilus, I would agree with your recommendations. I think Berkley in particular has charm.
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Wash_man
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Username: Wash_man

Post Number: 348
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 7:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A couple of years ago, a co-worker bought a house on Campbell Road, just north of 13 Mile. His house is on the east side of the road, meaning it has a Madison Heights address. He looked at a nearly identical house in a sub directly across the street but it was almost 50K more. When he asked the realtor why, she told him it was because the house on the west side of the Campbell had a Royal Oak address. Gimme a break! He's not originally from this area. He was dumbfounded. I could maybe understand this logic if house #2 were closer to downtown RO, but ACROSS THE STREET from Madison Hts?
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 168
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 7:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crawford - tell your friend to hold off, the real estate market has not bottomed out. Buy now and you will be underwater on your mortgage for the foreseeable future unless you are putting a ton down.

There are 10's of thousands of good homes in foreclosure all over the area - tell them to go for one of those!
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Terryh
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Username: Terryh

Post Number: 178
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 7:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is cool about the Royal Oak-Ferndale-Pleasant Ridge corridor is that it is centrally located. Homeowners and renters close to Woodward are walking distance to entertainment centers. One can almost do without a car with the Woodward bus route. On my days off from work I often give my car a rest, ride the bus and walk.
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Terryh
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Username: Terryh

Post Number: 179
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 8:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

LOL@city lover. Now that you mention it, too bad the Loving Touch massage parlor is now the Woodward Avenue Brewery and the Japanese Sauna was raided and closed for the sign clock or whatever it is.......
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 336
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 8:16 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes.
You can get three times as much house in Detroit.
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Terryh
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Username: Terryh

Post Number: 182
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Many of the houses in Detroit have architecural and historical character.
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Dannaroo
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Username: Dannaroo

Post Number: 39
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 8:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"You can get three times as much house in Detroit..."

.... With about 1/3 of the municipal services delivered.
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Lt_tom
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Username: Lt_tom

Post Number: 138
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 8:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good time to buy apt. buildings. Metro-detroit area properties have good cap rates.

Tom
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Rampartstreetnorth
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Username: Rampartstreetnorth

Post Number: 3
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 9:22 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One factor in the overall cost of home ownership is property tax rates. Royal Oak is lower than some other nearby communities, especially Ferndale.

The link below will take you to a property tax calculator which will allow you to compare tax rates in different Michigan Counties, towns and school districts.

https://treas-secure.state.mi. us/ptestimator/PTEstimator.asp
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 338
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 9:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's a great link, Rampart! Wish I knew about it earlier. Better late than never. :/
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Rampartstreetnorth
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Username: Rampartstreetnorth

Post Number: 4
Registered: 07-2006
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 9:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crawford--I'm aware of the truth of what you say, but in general low real estate cost represents a more favorable circumstance for growth than extremely high cost.

Cities such as San Francisco, for example, have difficulty providing housing for essential workers such as teachers, nurses and tradesmen because they are priced out of that market.

In addition, capital tied up in housing becomes unavailable for investment in other purposes which could otherwise provide job growth. It's great for the seller to receive a check for a gazillion dollars for the house they just sold but for the buyer that's money they can't put into something else.
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Darwinism
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Username: Darwinism

Post Number: 614
Registered: 06-2005
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 10:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Royal Oak is indeed delusional, Crawford. Gdub is right about the marketing jargons such as hardwood floors, black-on-black appliances, granite counter-tops, exposed steel beams, wall of windows and so on. These are words that are used to hype up the price and the image of the property.

If you are really curious about the true occupancy rates of these 'fake' lofts, try driving by them each night and track the number of units actually being lived in right now. Just do this experiment around the 11 Mile and Main Street corner where all the major loft developments are centered. You will be hard-pressed to find more than 50% of true occupancy rates on average. Don't let the developers and sales agents fool you.
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Granmontrules
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Username: Granmontrules

Post Number: 26
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Wednesday, February 28, 2007 - 10:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oddly enough I just ran into someone this evening that I had not seen in years. He just lost his job and he said that he can't sell his hosue to move (he lives in Royal Oak). He said his agent told him that Royal Oak is taking 24-26 months to sell! He told me that he should have bought in Detroit, like I had suggested several years ago. I didn't feel to vindicated - I felt bad for him. But wow! 24-26 months?
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Mike
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Username: Mike

Post Number: 864
Registered: 11-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 12:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

my friend was apartment shopping and he had the crazy idea that novi was cool (i hate novi) anyways...

we looked at some apartments, nothing less than 1000/month for a one bedroom. i asked the gal working at a place that want 1200 a month for a 1 bedroom apt that did not have stainless steal appliances, wooden floors, walk-in closets, parking port, or those sorts of goodies why this apartment was so expensive...

her answer "because its novi, its in downtown novi, and close to the freeway." for starters, i did not even know i was in downtown novi (i was in parking lot heaven) and you have to drive into a gated and sealed off gate to enter the complex.

boy oh boy does this region have it wrong or what.
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Perfectgentleman
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Username: Perfectgentleman

Post Number: 171
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 12:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Downtown Novi! That is pretty funny. I guess the woman would be referring to Grand River and Novi road, which has a few small shops surrounded by a bunch of hideous outdoor malls and other stores. Novi has turned into the new Sterling Heights without the charm!

I actually live out in North Oakland county and I would never live in Novi, it is bad enough I have to drive through it.
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Jrvass
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Username: Jrvass

Post Number: 43
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 1:31 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

My cousin will be selling her house on 4th in RO and moving to St. Clair Shores when she gets married.

I live in Waterford. On a canal between 2 pretty lakes. Nyahh! :p

James
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Professorscott
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Username: Professorscott

Post Number: 240
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 1:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If a house is taking two years to sell, that means the price is out of whack. I know a local realtor who told me she can sell anything in a short time if the price is reasonable, but sellers are fantasizing about what they can get in this dump-ass local economy.

Royal Oak is a popular local city because it is one of the more "urban-ish" places in the region, with vastly better services than Detroit. Detroit is actually built out in a suburb-style fashion for the most part, but with all the big-city problems.

I like Berkley, personally, but I'm biased - I used to live in Berkley and was a City Councilman about five hundred years ago.
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Cinderpath
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Username: Cinderpath

Post Number: 41
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 2:24 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes.
You can get three times as much house in Detroit.

Not to metion 3 times as much in property taxes. The tax rate in Detroit vs. city services is an unfunny joke.
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Softailrider
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Username: Softailrider

Post Number: 9
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 2:52 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You get a lot of house in Detroit , there's no doubt about that . Just stay healthy and avoid calling EMS . They may or may not get around to you before you die .
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Oldredfordette
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Username: Oldredfordette

Post Number: 1273
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 3:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I love living in Royal Oak. I couldn't afford to buy in now, but here I am and it's great.
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Granmontrules
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Username: Granmontrules

Post Number: 27
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 7:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think living in Detroit is the best and I am getting a 30% tax break on my house. My services are fine (yes could be better but what do I really need that I don't have), my house is beautiful, my neighbors are eclectic and diverse. I have an easy drive to work. My kids love their school. My only real complaint is I wish we had better shopping close by so I wouldn't have to go into tbe burbs for shopping as much.
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 328
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 8:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There are some really good deals in Royal Oak right now just like there are everywhere around here.

There are also some real overpriced pieces of crap in Royal Oak just like everywhere else.

Regardless, Royal Oak is a great place to live.

It's close to everywhere.

Like Detroit it has some great older houses with lots of charm.

The downtown has a of great places to eat and drink and you can walk around at night and not feel like Batmans parents leaving the theatre.

You can send your kids to the public schools.

It's not Detroit and it's not Novi.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8413
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 9:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The downtown has a of great places to eat and drink and you can walk around at night and not feel like Batmans parents leaving the theatre.



Yep. that is how downtown Detroit always feels to me. I think you are exaggerating a ridiculous amount.
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Detroit_girl
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Username: Detroit_girl

Post Number: 79
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Granmontrules. I couldn't agree with you more. Batman's parents? What does that mean?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8416
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

He is talking about the fact that Batman's parents were killed leaving a theater because downtown Gotham was so dangerous.

In other words he was implying that there is someone waiting in the shadows in downtown to kill, maim, rob anyone that happens to be downtown there.

Just stupidity.
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Defendbrooklyn
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Username: Defendbrooklyn

Post Number: 18
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:35 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ferndale or Detroit are the best options...Ferndale has over 600 homes for sale and some are absolutely gorgeous...My wife and i just bought a 1500 sqft home with tons of character for under 100k. Obviously it needs some work but after looking at 50 + homes in the area you cant get much/livable under 100k.

Detroit offers way more house for your dollar but as someone mentioned before less service. However, in the long un may be the best investment.

Royal Oak is a F-ing joke. Why pay 50-60k more for the exact same house because it sits in royal oak and not ferndale or detroit?
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2185
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do you really need to ask that question defendbrooklyn? ............four hundred murders in Detroit last year and you ask that question.
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Spacemonkey
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Username: Spacemonkey

Post Number: 153
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:48 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Don't forget about the school systems. If a couple has kids, they might want to spend the extra $$ for Royal Oak Schools rather than Ferndale Schools. (Or Detroit for that matter). I understand that Birmingham is so expensive particularly for their outstanding schools.
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Southofeight
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Username: Southofeight

Post Number: 63
Registered: 07-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's all relative, isn't it? People buy in Detroit — whether they were raised there or not, for myriad of reasons, just like people buy in the suburbs. It's all based on preference.

You get a lot of house in Detroit. You get a lot of house in Ferndale, too. You don't get as much house in Royal Oak for the money, but you get other intangibles, again, based on where you prefer to live.

Royal Oak's market peaked years ago. I know someone who paid $68,000 for an older home in 1992 and sold it for, I'm not kidding, nearly three times that in 1997. I think some real estate agents, with commission $$$ in their eyes, are clinging to a dream that's not there anymore.

The market is packed with too many houses right now so you might be able to get a steal in a city like Royal Oak or Ferndale. Royal Oak realtors market downtown, crap condos and the like because that's the demographic which with they are obsessed. Elder community members aren't going anywhere. Some older couple who lives near 12 and Crooks isn't going to sell their crib, so why market to them or near them?
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 329
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lighten up. The Batmans parents line was a joke.

Although you would be lying if you have ever taken a wrong turn downtown and ended up somewhere you didn't expect and didn't feel a little uneasy..

"Why pay 50-60k more for the exact same house because it sits in royal oak and not ferndale or detroit?"

If it is in Detroit you would pay the extra money because you wouldn't have drive your kids to school in Royal Oak every day, you wouldn't have super high taxes and insurance, and you wouldn't have to worry about getting your trash picked up.

Ferndale is nice but the taxes are a little high and hones there are not that much cheaper than Royal Oak anymore.
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Fury13
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Username: Fury13

Post Number: 1382
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Why pay 50-60k more for the exact same house because it sits in royal oak and not ferndale or detroit?"

Uhhh, better schools? Cleaner environment? Well kept neighborhoods where it's safe to walk around, even late at night? A lot less violent crime? Responsive police? Good city services and well maintained streets/sidewalks? Central location in terms of the entire metro area? Good restaurants and entertainment options concentrated in one pleasant downtown area?

Naaah, there sure aren't many reasons to live in Royal Oak...
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Barnesfoto
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Username: Barnesfoto

Post Number: 3092
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 11:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

If you live in a place for a while, you don't make wrong turns there anymore...
You never have to worry about getting your trash picked up in Detroit...

Now, if you call 911, that's another story...

There are a handful of schools your kids can walk to in Detroit,

Royal Oak and Ferndale are charming places, and I'd expect prices to come down a bit this year.

The overpriced lofts make me chuckle, evidence that people will pay lots of money to experience (in a safe, sterile way) what they think is an "edgier" lifestyle.

I guess that it's kinda like paying extra for Vodka that comes out of a blue bottle.
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 330
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 11:07 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's what is so great about this site.

Everyone who bashes on the suburbs always gets waaaayyy too defensive when anyone cracks on Detroit.

Ease the f*** up. Every city has its flaws.

and just because nothing has happened to you living in Detroit doesn't mean that it won't

but when something bad does happen I'm sure all of the myopians on this site will blame it on people from Novi or Macomb coming in to the city.
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321brian
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Username: 321brian

Post Number: 331
Registered: 02-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agree. The lofts in Royal Oak are becoming obnoxious.
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Iheartthed
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Username: Iheartthed

Post Number: 450
Registered: 04-2006
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 11:13 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The housing prices in metro Detroit period are a joke. You all are really getting screwed out of home equity which is probably helping to depress the market. You can't even buy a house in Watts, CA for much better than $400K.

I don't think the local economy is affecting it as much as the glut of housing versus the local population.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8422
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 11:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Everyone who bashes on the suburbs always gets waaaayyy too defensive when anyone cracks on Detroit.



Did you notice the name of the website/forum.

There are a lot of services that you can knock Detroit for but " and you wouldn't have to worry about getting your trash picked up." is incorrect. Bulk pickup is back on a quarterly basis and I have never had an issue with my garbage being picked up. That is one service in the city that I have never had an issue with.

Knock services if you will but knock the ones that deserve it.
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Defendbrooklyn
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Username: Defendbrooklyn

Post Number: 19
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 12:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

All points made about Detroit vs. Ferndale and R.O are good points.

I was coming from the point of view of not having children. If Children are in the picture i agree about paying extra money for safety. However, i lived in a semi shady neighborhood in Brooklyn for 3 years and nothing came close to happening. I would read about violent things happening all the time but never directly involved...I also worked in Harlem and witnessed some nasty shit but again nothing directly to me. My point being this, when people bring up 400 murders and Detroit's violent crimes they are without mention of motives. It is very rare that a random person murders a random person. Behind Detroit’s violence and murders are usually relationships that have gone drastically wrong. Usually, murder is a result of a previous relationship and not an out lash on a random individual.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 12:29 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hazel Park, where I live has lots of affordable properties under 100K, for that you'll get a basement and a 2 car garage. We have a downtown, and we are just minutes from RO. We have decent services too. Some neighborhoods have older brick homes too of you don't care for the 50s ranches that predominate.
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8424
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 12:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cambrian - Where is HPs downtown? Don't recall ever seeing it.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 12:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John R extending from both sides of 9 mile. It's not as fancy as Ferndale's or RO, but it's got potential. There are a lot of family owned type retail establishments, and a few multi story buildings. 9 mile has some too, but there are more light industrial facilities there like Dequindre has.
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 1:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks.
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 1:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Cambrian, are there any bungalows in HP? If so, do they have garages or basements? I'm looking to buy a house in the Ferndale area because of its central location and a lot of my friends live there. But I definitely want a bungalow. I can't possibly live in another boring ass ranch.
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 1:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe that much of HPs housing stock is similar in style to the RO bungalows.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 1:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, we got bungalows. The neighborhoodz just East of John R is little older and has got some nice old houses.
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Jt1
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 1:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

HP also has Brays, house of Shamrocks and Louie's.

That's all I know about the city but those three are pretty darn good.

Is Pi's Thai in HP?

(Message edited by jt1 on March 01, 2007)
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Cambrian
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 1:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dunno, haven't had Tai in a while. There's a really nice Cantonese place in Ferndale just outside our city limits, can't recall the name. Fancy inside, really nice family runs it, dinners are huge and less than $10.
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Crawford
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Post Number: 36
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 1:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I like Hazel Park and would agree that it is a pretty good deal.

One caveat- I have noticed some abandoned lots and ill-kept/possibly abandoned homes in the extreme southern reaches of Hazel Park. There are some vacant residential lots east of John R just north of 8 Mile. It's possible that decay is slowly moving its way across 8 Mile. If I were buying in Hazel Park, I would stick with north of 9 Mile, or at least stay closer to 9 Mile than 8 Mile.

I also think the neighborhoods west of John R (bordering Ferndale) are nicer and better kept than neighborhoods east of John R (bordering Warren). Some of those east of John R blocks near 8 Mile are slipping...
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Cambrian
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 1:44 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah South of 9 is hit and miss. There is a really fancy few block of homes there, Colonials like you'd see in Farmington Hills. The City is working hard to clean up the blighted areas. Every spring there is a wave of enforcement action from the code department. I'm off of Dequindre, I like my neighborhood but if had to do it again I would buy closer to John R. There's more to walk too. I would not buy west of John R only because the Fwy is there.
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Fury13
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 2:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Bungalows? I don't remember seeing many bungalows in Hazel Park, although there might be a few. Lots of '40s and '50s Cape Cods ("Capes"), though:

Bungalow




Cape Cod with aluminum siding


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Cambrian
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 2:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Right, they are scattered here and there. Development originated from the West, the neighborhoods on the East End are newer and more tract like.
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Southofeight
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 2:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pi Thai IS in Hazel Park and is, in my opinion, the best Thai around.

HP also has one of the strangest bars around, End of the Park. Eddie's (on the service drive) is also a good, little bar. Also, it has one of the best indie bicycle shops around, Continental. Great shop, totally cool owner (John). He's pretty involved in the community, promoting cycling.

Oh, and don't forget BDT, you know, if you're into that sort of thing.

You can find solid housing in HP, but like some of these posts indicate, south of Nine Mile can be dicey. If possible, north of Nine, west of the freeway and south of Woodward Heights are good neighborhoods. I used to live around there not too long ago.
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Terryh
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 6:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The far Northwest side of Detroit is very suburbanish.
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Granmontrules
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 8:31 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ok. So why would you live in Hazel Park over Detroit ie., Green Acres, Southwest Detroit, Granmot, East English Village, Morningside - which have homes in comparable value?

I don't get it. I drove through a few times and wasn't impressed with the housing stock or the overall quality of life there. It was kind of depressing.
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Ladyinabag
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 9:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is because Royal Oak is "COOL". You are paying for "COOL". Southfield is more moderately priced and the houses are, on a whole, newer. But, Southfield is not as "COOL" as Royal Oak. Madison Heights is certainly not as "Cool" as Royal Oak, but is right next door and the rents and sales are considerably lower than Royal Oak. Besides, Madison Heights has The Green Lantern at 12 Mi & John R.
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Perfectgentleman
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ladyinabag -

Very good point. Royal Oak is considered "cool." Why I will never know. I grew up in Southfield and there was a time when Royal Oak was thought of as downscale. Somehow that changed over the years.
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Tkangas_23
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There's an interesting correlation with higher property values and the amount of trees in a given city.

Compare Royal Oak and Ferndale (lots of large trees on streets and in yards) with Warren and Madison Heights (which appear as if most of the neighborhoods were clear-cut before a single home was built). This is a good example of smart, long-term development paying off.
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Perfectgentleman
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think trees help, so does a nice little downtown with places you can walk to. Warren, Madison Heights and Southfield never had that from what I remember. None of them had a good master plan. As a person who grew up in Southfield, I always thought it was an ugly ass place to live.
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Darwinism
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:33 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another point that I wish to make is the issue of negative equity. Those in the mortgage industry can attest to this fact. A lot of folks, and I mean a heck of a lot, bought into the 'no money down' program to purchase more house than they can actually afford.

Fast forward to 2007, and after a few rounds of re-fis, plus some HELOCs thrown into the mix, many of these Royal Oak homeowners are actually in the red. They are all drawn out, and has absolutely no equity in their property. Many are owing way more than their houses are even worth.

This is one reason why some sellers are unable to drop their prices, because even if they wish they could ..... they are really in a bind and unable to do so.
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Miss_cleo
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think any city is an ugly ass place to live. BTW, Madison Heights was swamp land before they built there.
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Fury13
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Posted on Thursday, March 01, 2007 - 10:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Southfield and Madison Heights aren't as "cool" as Royal Oak simply because they don't have cohesive, walkable downtowns.

Same with Troy.

Warren blew it when the city fathers didn't expand on the quaint, old Warren village on Mound Road and make that Warren's downtown. No, they chose an ugly, out-of-scale, unwalkable strip along Van Dyke.

I agree that Hazel Park has promise. The quality of life could be better, but it does have a business area along John R that could be developed... and the location is great.
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Gistok
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:19 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isn't Charlevoix considered a City?
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Miss_cleo
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 9:47 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I dont live IN the city I am 10 miles outside Charlevoix on 35 acres on land....and Charlevoix is actually a very clean, friendly walkable city.
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Jt1
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 9:54 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I dont live IN the city I am 10 miles outside Charlevoix on 35 acres on land....



I read that as "I have problems dealing with people so I have to be by myself." To each his/her own but your anti-everything but Charlevoix non-sense it tiresome.

quote:

and Charlevoix is actually a very clean, friendly walkable city.



This thread is about RO. I would say that RO is clean, friendly and walkable. So your point is?
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Fury13
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:04 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"I read that as 'I have problems dealing with people so I have to be by myself.'"

I don't read it that way at all. Some people enjoy living in a nature-oriented setting. And traffic noise and crime can be annoying. Everyone's allowed to have their own preference.

I wouldn't mind having a 35-acre estate myself.

That's the great thing about living in America -- you get to choose.
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Miss_cleo
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Post Number: 407
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:11 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I will take where I live anyday over the filthy cesspool that is SE MIchigan......WTF, everyone who lives on acreage has problems dealing with people?

I have peace, way less crime, way less pollution, way less cars, noise, MY quality of life has improved a thousand fold since being away from all the cement and noise and pollution and crime.

So enjoy your concrete lives while I enjoy my life up here 'mmmmmk?

*still laughing at *problem dealing with people* lol
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 37
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:22 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Miss Cleo, enjoy the Michigan Militia, the retirees scampering to their Early Bird specials and the summer infestations of black flies and yuppie Chicagoans.

Northern Michigan has such obvious charm, especially living on a dirt road in the sticks in the dead of winter. Unabomber Chic!
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 408
Registered: 05-2005
Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:38 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

lol, you city folk will never understand and this little country mouse will NEVER understand the allure of the city.

Its actually very beautiful this morning on my dirt road in the sticks, LOVE it! I guess I am being compared to a criminal now, nice.

So you enjoy the drive-by shootings, poor city services, plant closings, poor schools, low property values, etc. and
I will enjoy the low crime rate, great city services, secure job for my husband (out of the Auto Industry), good school, 5-star resturants, the beach and Lake Michigan 10 minutes away, smog free air, star filled skies, and if my heart desires, I can take a 45 min ride to TC and have all the cement and malls and noise I want
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Janesback
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Post Number: 244
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:39 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Geeze folks, different strokes for different folks, right?

Like some one stated earlier, its all about choice. Wanna live in the sticks, so be it. There are pros and cons. Wanna live in the concrete village, there are pros and cons.

Tarzan lived in a tree house in a jungle, and look what a great life he lead. Not many women, but what a view... Jane
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Johnlodge
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:46 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't understand ridiculing Miss Cleo for liking to live in the country. What's wrong with that? She doesn't like living in the city, that's ok, its not for everybody! Some people like a slower lifestyle. Personally, that is not for me, because I like playing in my band in cool Detroit bars and being able to make a whole night out of hopping around doing things without having a 45 minute drive home at the end of it. But that's just me! I think this might just be misdirected urban sprawl hate going on.
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Jt1
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:49 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

WTF, everyone who lives on acreage has problems dealing with people?



Nope but if you are going to throw around stupid stereotypes I will too.

quote:

have peace, way less crime, way less pollution, way less cars, noise, MY quality of life has improved a thousand fold since being away from all the cement and noise and pollution and crime.



We all define what is important in our QOL differently. Yours may work for some but certainly would not work for me. Sorry you are so ignorant to think that what is best for you is best for everyone else. I like being around people; I like having access to museums, theaters, a variety of restaurants, etc. Those might not be important for your QOL but they are very important for mine.

Do you understand such a simple concept?

quote:

*still laughing at *problem dealing with people* lol



Yes, because you show time and time again on this board how lovely you must be in real life.
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Miss_cleo
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Post Number: 409
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:50 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

a 45 minute drive home at the end of it.



yup, that can be a draw-back at times, but we are pretty much past the bar hopping out all night scene anyway. Its a trade off, but one we were willing to make.
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Miss_cleo
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Post Number: 410
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:51 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

like having access to museums, theaters, a variety of restaurants,


psssst, guess what? We have all that here to!
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8435
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:53 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John - I have no issue with people living in the country. I can actually see why it would be very appealing. I mock Miss Cleo because the ignorant bitch does nothing but come to a Detroityes forum and bitch about how stupid we are for living were we choose and how brilliant she is for living were she chooses.

I hold no ill will for country people as it is probably a very relaxing lifestyle. I hold ill will for the Miss Cleo. I was mocking her stereotyping by stereotyping her.

Her first post on this thread stated "I think any city is an ugly ass place to live. BTW, Madison Heights was swamp land before they built there."

Well, I see her opinion as ignorant and will mock her choices of where to live if she continually does it here.
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Jt1
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:55 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

like having access to museums, theaters, a variety of restaurants,


psssst, guess what? We have all that here to!



I will take the quality and quantity here over what you have were you live. My choice in determining what is important to me. I also enjoy sporting events and proximity to Ann Arbor.

Continue to tell us our choice of what is important for QOL is wrong. That is a very sound argument.

(Message edited by jt1 on March 02, 2007)
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8437
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:56 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So back on topic:

Is RO overpriced? And what other comparable options would be out there for Crawford's friend?
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Johnlodge
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Post Number: 191
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 10:57 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"John - I have no issue with people living in the country. I can actually see why it would be very appealing. I mock Miss Cleo because the ignorant bitch does nothing but come to a Detroityes forum and bitch about how stupid we are for living were we choose and how brilliant she is for living were she chooses. "

Hmm. I see your point. ;)
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Miss_cleo
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Post Number: 411
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 11:03 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Which was in reply to *perfectgentleman* calling where he grew up an *ugly ass place to live*

I lived in MH and Clinton twp for 40 years so I guess my opinion is valid.

and its so nice to be call foul names when I have never insuted any person here, such class.
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Kpm
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 11:08 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A lot of what make Royal Oak desirable can be found in the surrounding inner-ring suburbs at a lower price. But, the bars, restaurants, entertainment makes for a great destination. I very much agree that some of the newer construction lofts are pricey (especially for the square footage you get), but many of the people moving into these developments seem to have higher disposable incomes.
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8438
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 11:17 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

and its so nice to be call foul names when I have never insuted any person here



Right. Foul names are not the only type of insults out there.

I will admit I missed the post that you were responding to. That was my mistake.

quote:

I lived in MH and Clinton twp for 40 years so I guess my opinion is valid



Your opinion is valid for you, not for everyone. Until you understand that it is pointless to discuss the matter with you.

Now as a side note. Here is a list of cities in SE Michigan with Violent crime rates lower than Traverse City:

Redford Township
Lincoln Park
Clinton Township
Taylor
Southgate
Ann Arbor
Chesterfield Township
Madison Heights
St. Clair Shores
Waterford Township
Brownstown Township
Allen Park
Sterling Heights
Royal Oak - Very pertinent to conversation
Shelby Township
Grosse Pointe
Utica
Clawson
Canton Township
Livonia
Wyandotte
Grosse Pointe Park
Fraser
Pleasant Ridge
Farmington
Birmingham
South Lyon
New Baltimore
Novi
Northville Township
Troy
Beverly Hills
Grosse Pointe Farms
Rochester
Bloomfield Township
Grosse Pointe Woods
West Bloomfield Township
Huntington Woods
Northville
Bloomfield Hills
Grosse Pointe Shores

Would you like me to compare the property crime as well?

(Message edited by jt1 on March 02, 2007)
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 413
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 11:34 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Your opinion is valid for you, not for everyone. Until you understand that it is pointless to discuss the matter with you.


Where did I EVER say my opinion was for everyone? You are the one putting that spin on what I say, not me.....and I dont live in TC, so whats your point?
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Mind_field
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Post Number: 690
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 11:36 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

miss Cleo, what is your purpose for posting on this forum? If you despise SE Michigan THAT much, then what are you doing reading this forum, which is very SE Michigan-centric?

Start your own website championing the virtues of your lifestyle and how you choose to live, why post your negativity here? Do you have that big of a chip on your shoulder?
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Miss_cleo
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 11:41 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I live in SE Mi for 40 years, til last June when we moved north. I guess I am supposed to stop being intrested in what happens there.

Tit for tat, I am going out snowshoeing and to feed the deer. Have a nice day ya'll
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Miss_cleo
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Post Number: 415
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 11:42 am:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ps, to me its most of YOU who have the chip, 90% of the posts here are negitive stuff about the city, but woe the person who points it out and agrees with it! lol!
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8439
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 12:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

to me its most of YOU who have the chip



MMMmmmm chips. Is it lunch time already.
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Gistok
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Post Number: 3723
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 12:18 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Geeze Miss Cleo, your ugly attitude on this forum is a sign of some sort of unhappiness in your life. That's what it looks like to the rest of us.

If you're so happy living where you do (and God bless you for your wonderful life).... why do you always add such ugliness to your posts here? There's hardly a thread on this forum where you don't add some sort of unpleasantness.

Sounds like someone isn't all that blissful in your life, because if it were, you would be posting with a possitive attitude. Either that or your 40 years of living in metro Detroit were Hell on Earth.
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Baltgar
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 12:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I agreed about the "loft" issue in RO.

Back on the HP topic...It has nice housing south of eight mile too.

http://detroit.craigslist.org/ rfs/272600795.html

As far as vacant lots go, well yes there are more south of 9 than north of 9, but they are quickly being bought up for new colonial housing like this:

http://www.mirealsource.com/cg i-bin/google-MJ03?LM_MST_mls_n oYYNT=30384860&LM_MST_prop_fmt NNNL=1

Not the best architecture, but fits in and makes the neighborhood look better.

It is a small city, so you get more attention from City staff than you would in a larger city like Royal Oak. They also have many community groups that most people don't know about. The best part is that like many of you said you get the same quality house but for 50k less than Ferndale and 100k less than Royal Oak. You can visit these town in 5 minutes with access to 8 mile and I-75. Some people feel the HP schools are better than Ferndale's schools. HP had a new JR high built in 2003 and many refurbished elem. schools. It may not have a traditional downtown, but like Cambrian said it has potential. There biggest problem is lack of budget. They really need to consolidate with another city or share services. I know this was mentioned in another post.

They are also proactively going after properties with deadbeat owners.

***************

Council goes after building code scofflaws
Jeremy Adragna C & G Staff Writer
Published: May 17, 2006
City Council again last week ordered the demolition of three homes in the city in their campaign against blight. One homeowner vehemently fought council on the charge that she is unwilling to fix up her home on West Pearl after eight years of disrepair from fire damage.

Deborah Brown, a Ferndale resident, has owned the house at 139 W. Pearl for nearly 20 years and was served in early April a laundry list of repairs by the city’s Buildings Department to be completed within 30 days, or else she would have to face council.

“It’s not a nuisance,” said Brown to council last week. “I don’t understand why this house is a big deal. I feel like I’m being harassed. I’ve bent over backwards to make sure this house is safe and secure.”

Brown and others that are faced with the prospect of having the homes they own in Hazel Park bulldozed have pointed to the condition of other, perhaps worse, homes in the city.

“I don’t think it is harassment,” said Mayor Jack Lloyd. “We have an obligation … this hurts property values, and when it’s not occupied it becomes a potential hazard.”

Council gave Brown another chance to get the home up to code after she showed a willingness to do so. Brown was ordered to make repairs within 120 days or else face the wrecking ball.

But two other homes that came before council on May 9 for hearings on the condition of their property were not so lucky.

Clawson resident Greg Dobie, owner of 143 Andreson, was ordered to attend four hearings since last August but did not show up for two of them.

Building Department official Roger Pinch estimates that necessary repairs to that house could exceed $35,000. The State Equalized Value of the home is $45,000.

As a model for choosing which homes should come before council for a “Show Cause” hearing, the city uses an ordinance that specifies that any home in need of repairs that exceed 50 percent of the structure’s taxable value can be earmarked for demolition.

Dobie appeared before council and admitted that he has not had a tenant in the home for nearly six years and that he had not “done a very good job” keeping the home in order.

Neighbors of the home say they’ve cut the grass there, raked leaves and even shoveled snow to keep their own homes looking respectable.

“There is no house that is as bad as this house,” said Gary McCasey, who has lived next door since 1957. “We want it to go.”

The home on Andreson was ordered demolished within 60 days.

No one spoke on behalf of an appeal for a home at 1005 E. Muir, regarded by some on council as one of the worst in the city and a “dilapidated, unsanitary structure” by Pinch. It was also ordered demolished.

In recent months the code enforcement officers have begun scanning the city in zones to turn around some of the blight that has been a mainstay of several residential streets for years. The move has been criticized by those who have been required to defend their homes from the wrecking ball but has been lauded by some residents as a much-needed program.

“If the city has the intestinal fortitude to order the demolition of some houses and to put some teeth into some others, then slowly but surely we’re going to turn this city around,” said resident Bob Peterson.

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Cambrian
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Post Number: 720
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good article and points Baltgar! South of 9 has the neighborhoods with the most distinct homes too! North of 9 has more ranches and cape cods. One of our biggest blights is the old Federal's building on 8 mile. The city is going after the owner's in court to make them fix it up.
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Southofeight
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:13 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What in the hell kind of museums are in Charlevoix? Lady, you're high.
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Cambrian
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:24 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Granmont rules asked why HP, MH as opposed to Detroit? I've got a school age child. My folks moved out of the D because they did not want me in that public school system. That is ingrained in me, also perception of property crimes and insurance rates. This forum had helped me come along and alleviate some of these negative perceptions. I foresee myself moving into Detroit (if I don't first have to relocate to find work) once my kid graduates high school.
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Eastsidedog
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Username: Eastsidedog

Post Number: 930
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

John R in Hazel Park is a lot like how downtown Royal Oak and Ferndale were the 80s (when I was a kid). Decent Mom and Pop stores (Continental Bike is a great store - just bought my new bike there). Nothing fancy. Not many people walking around either. Although John R in Hazel Park has more parking lots. I grew up in the area (lived in Pleasant Ridge for 16 years and in RO for 5 years, went to school in RO and Ferndale, and had friends in Oak Park). Royal Oak started changing when the cool record shops (Off the Record, Repeat the Beat -- now a fancy hair salon last I checked) and Noir Leather moved in -- and when 696 was built. When Repeat the Beat was replaced with the fancy hair salon that was the last straw IMO. Occasionally, my wife and I go to Pronto's with my folks (who still live in RO, in a nice old house near downtown = teardown massacres everywhere) but that's about it. BTW, Pronto's was was of the first if not the first "hip" restaurant in RO. I think they opened in the early nineties. I've heard they've been suffering though from all the competition. Folks ALWAYS want to go to the NEW place.
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Eastsidedog
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

ignore miss cleo! ugh!
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 416
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:43 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We have the Harsha House Museum, the Charlevoix Depot Museum, the performing arts center at Castle Farms, the Earl Young Homes, Raven Hill Discovery Center, Crooked Tree Arts Center in Petoskey, 5 golf courses, 3 beaches, 2 Marinas, fishing charters, skiing, x-country skiing, sledding, snowmobling, Little Traverse Wheelway,Young state Park, Fishermen Island State Park, Sleepy Hollow Nature Preserve,

dinning downtown and 20 min away,

Charlevoix has restaurants to satisfy any appetite. From casual, to family-oriented, to upscale, they’re all here. But take a short 20-minute drive to nearby Ellsworth, and dining goes from exceptional to world class.


The Rowe Inn provides a casual atmosphere in the beautiful Northern Michigan countryside in which to enjoy exceptional dining. Here you’ll find one of the largest wine lists in the state. Signature dishes include rack of lamb, morels stuffed with pecans and white chocolate brownies.


Tapawingo has received raves nationwide. Gourmet Magazine said, “(the) cooking spoke eloquently for itself in course after course.” From The New York Times comes this endorsement, “… Tapawingo may be the best restaurant anywhere in the country that’s a four-hour drive from the closet major city.” And Saveur Magazine reported, “…this is one of the best in the whole Midwest.”


Grey Gables Inn
308 Belvedere Ave
(@ US 31)
Charlevoix, MI 49720

Guiseppe's Italian Grille
757 Petosky
Charlevoix, MI 49720

Whitney's Oyster Bar
307 Bridge St
(@ Clinton)
Charlevoix, MI 49720

Argonne Supper Club
11929 Boyne City Rd
Charlevoix, MI 49720



The unrivaled beauty and charm of this classic resort town makes it the crown jewel of northern Michigan vacation destinations. Its setting in the midst of Lake Michigan, Lake Charlevoix and Round Lake provides a magical appeal that has attracted guests for more than 100 years.


Blue water, white sand, gleaming yachts in one of the world’s most beautiful harbors — that’s just the beginning of what makes Charlevoix so captivating. Elegant Victorian homes, white picket fences and vibrant petunias accent the gracious atmosphere. Wonderful parks provide the perfect place to sit back and simply while away the time.


The main street in Charlevoix is only four blocks long, but you’ll want to leave plenty of time to stroll from one end to the other. The number and quality of art galleries, clothing boutiques and gourmet restaurants is certain to bring several stops along the way.


All this and more awaits you in Charlevoix, where your vacation memories will be treasured for years to come.



There is plenty here to see and do, its just laid back and slower and not * in your face* stuff.
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Charlevoix, MI, violent crime, on a scale from 1 (low crime) to 10, is 1. Violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. The US average is 3.

Charlevoix, MI, property crime, on a scale from 1 (low) to 10, is 2. Property crime includes the offenses of burglary, larceny-theft, motor vehicle theft, and arson. The object of the theft-type offenses is the taking of money or property, but there is no force or threat of force against the victims. The US average is 3.
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8442
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Very informative and non inflammatory post. Nothing wrong with pointing out what is good in your area without criticizing another.

Nothing wrong with just pointing out what you like about your area. A refreshing change of pace.
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Janesback
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Username: Janesback

Post Number: 245
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 1:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

it was also the summer home of Richard Loeb, who was the other half in the Bobby Franks murder. He along with Nathan Leopold kidnapped young 12 year old Bobby Franks in the chicago neighborhood of Kenwood. They eventually confessed and were sent to prison.

2 movies were spun off from this murder, Compulsion and Murder by Numbers....

Thought I would add a little to your tour of your city miss cleo........Jane
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 418
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 2:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Its also the summer home of JonBennt Ramseys family
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 38
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 2:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

How many nonwhites live in Charlevoix?
How many gays?
How many people without cars?
How many Muslims, Hindus or (gasp!) Atheists?

It's pretty obnoxious for you to gush about your ignorant redneck lifestyle and accompanying environmental destruction, especially when it has NOTHING to do with the thread topic. I've already watched Deliverance a million times. I don't need to hear the color commentary.
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Miss_cleo
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Username: Miss_cleo

Post Number: 419
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 3:20 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's pretty obnoxious for you to gush about your ignorant redneck lifestyle and accompanying environmental destruction,


??? WTF, living up north is ignorant redneck? and just what have I destroyed? tell me?

lol, now, I am off to Petoskey to watch my daughter compete in a music festival, cause we are just redneck heathens up here ya know, we cant compare with all your culture *rolls eyes* but we can compete with fresh air, beautiful land, low crime......ah, but you dont care about that, you only want to call me names and pretend Detroit isnt a shithole.......have at it, I am not bothered by your thinly veiled jealously
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Mercman
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Username: Mercman

Post Number: 8
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 3:28 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"Even crazier is the delusional marketing. The agents think Royal Oak is another Tribeca or South Beach. For example, does Crooks and 14 Mile Road conjure images of "hip and sophisticated" and "zen gardens"? Apparently this property owner ("Urbane Apartments", give me a break) thinks crappy postwar rentals can be marketed just like real urban dwellings."

I've watched them build that place from what it was since I drive by everyday. You know what the 'zen garden' is? They filled in the previous in-ground swimming pool with sand! LOL!
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Lt_tom
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Username: Lt_tom

Post Number: 139
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crawford, how dead set is your friend on living in Royal Oak? If things are as bad in Michigan as everyone says (Im out in SoCal), maybe something nice in Royal Oak will pop up on the NODs or at the auction house.
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Lt_tom
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Username: Lt_tom

Post Number: 140
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 3:38 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Isnt Interlochen up by Charlevoix? They cant be totally uncultured.
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Lt_tom
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Username: Lt_tom

Post Number: 141
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 3:48 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

As for urbane apartments, if their vacancy rates are lower and their buildings are more profitable as a result from a rehab, Im sure they dont care what they filled the swimming pool with, especially since they wont be paying any more pool maintenance/insurance costs.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 3:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

h, but you dont care about that, you only want to call me names and pretend Detroit isnt a shithole.......



And you wonder why you are so despised here. The 'redneck' comments were out of line but you could have responded why you disagree instead of stating that Detroit is a shithole. But as you stated before you never offend anyone.

You can defend where you live without calling Detroit a shithole on a pro Detroit forum. If you don't understand why you are so reviled here you are more ignorant than I thought.
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 39
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 4:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes, Miss Cleo, I really, really want to trade my Brooklyn loft for a double-wide trailer in the woods. I'm sure the seasonal McJobs beat Wall Street.

Lt tom, I will tell my buddy to track foreclosures. I would assume there are plenty of overleveraged types in Royal Oak.

Based on what I'm hearing, I think it's best to wait at least a year, unless one sees an amazing fire-sale opportunity.
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 4:30 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I don't know about a year but the bottom certainly hasn't fallen out. I suspect that there are a lot of interest only mortgages in RO that will be coming due soon. Once forced to refinance people may be over their heads.

Tell your friend to ignore some of the new lofts - they are extremely overpriced.
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Citylover
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Username: Citylover

Post Number: 2186
Registered: 07-2004
Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 4:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Y'all are just damn silly. And I do mean all.Is it not pretty damn cool that we live in a state where we have Charlevoix and Detroit.

Lt Tom you come off as a dumb ass and so do you crawford. Charlevoix is a beautiful place.And the people there are well educated and fairly sophisticated. So to imply that gays or blacks or whoever else in the rainbow you all think should need to live somewhere to satisfy your image of how the world should be are not welcome........is bullshit. If they can afford it thay are welcome.

I understand Ms Cleo's frustration with Detroit.However I am guessing that were someone really unfamiliar with Detroit needed to know about the city Ms.Cleo would have some good things to say.

What I like is that so many people unfamiliar with Michigan are really and very pleasantly surprised when they are exposed to a Petoskey or Charlevoix or Detroit or Hillsdale or many other area's of the state. Comments about Detroit being a shithole and double wides in the woods serve no useful purpose.
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Jt1
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Post Number: 8445
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Posted on Friday, March 02, 2007 - 4:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crawford - One final piece of advice.

Have your friend check to see how many places are for sale in the city(ies) of his choice. He should be able to get that through MLS. While the RE market in the State is in the shitter the best idea of how inflated prices are and how they will adjust is by number of properties for sale.

Some cities are getting hit worse than others and that will illustrate the smaller segment of the Michigan market

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