 
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3224
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 1:03 am: |    |
I'm completely lost...people who normally bitch about excess government and troublesome regulations seem to be calling for more regulations, many of which have been dismantled for years. Where were you guys and which side were you on when Reagan deregulated the meat-packing industry,and cut the number of inspectors in the FDA and OSHA? Or when Nixon allowed the Japanese to sell electronics here at below cost (in exchange for support of the Vietnam War!)
Where were you when Nafta went through?
Where were you when the US intervened in one country after another in Central America, escalating civil wars and in turn, immigration?
And still, the only personal experiences that anyone has posted are all positive.
I'm glad that someone brought up China, because
Mexico is losing jobs to them too.
The annual immigration bitching is a great distraction from the big picture...keep bitching and keep eating those mouthfulls of food picked by the hands of the people whose presence you so loudly denounce. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 310
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 1:25 am: | |
Barnesfoto -
Nobody is advocating excess regulations, I only ask the rule of law be enforced.
From the United States Constitution:
Article I, Section 8
To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;
Article IV, Section 4
The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence. |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 2813
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 1:50 am: | |
quote:I'm completely lost...
Obviously... We'll up your lithium carbonate dosage.
Nurse, next patient, please! |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3225
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 2:00 am: | |
geez, now he's for socialized health care. I thought that health costs were the responsibility of each individual.
Curiouser and curiouser. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 800
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 7:58 am: | |
"Cambrian,
Find any illegal immigrants that receive WIC, or welfare yet? No? When you do, or when you want to admit to your mistake, we can debate. Until then, fuck off."
Chedder bob, find any illegal immigrants with kids that are starving, not in school and have never been vaccinated? Your 7th grader F bombs in response to my valid points would indicate that you are the one on the ropes in "our little debate", not me. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 801
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 10:14 am: | |
Barnes, given the choice I would gladly pay a little bit more for my food if the company's that provided the food were forced to pay thier help union wages. But we all know as consumers that we are not offered those choices when we food shop. But yes, when I buy chicken I prefer the Amish farm raised, and it's not even twice as expensive as the Tyson brand. I'm sure the costs would not spring as high as you opine. Rather then a grower paying his 500 pickers a fair wage, I'm sure he would turn to machinery to replace 2/3rds of them instead. |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3226
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 11:49 am: | |
Cambrian: Not all crops can be picked by machines.
You are right about choices offered but:
Some of neighbors in SW Detroit raise their own chickens, (proof perhaps, that some illegals are dangerous criminals) and Ryan's foods sells Amish raised chicken...
I don't think the costs would be that high either, but I do think that people are too lazy to think about where their food comes from, and so we'll be having the same argument in ten years.
One choice you COULD make is not to buy fast food.
Read those books by Eric Scholsser yet? |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 802
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 12:07 pm: | |
Yes, I think I struck a chord with you folks from SW detroit. If I were my Great Grampa in 1915 sitting on the barstool at his favorite watering hole at Michigan and Livernois I would be telling critical people to F-Off too, in Polish anyway, he never really learned English that good. It's my philosophy that you take care of your kids first before you start worrying about the kids in the next neighborhood. And too many of our "kids" don't have it too good right now. The Detroit of 1915 wasn't like the Detroit of 2007. And too many people like to criticize us for not going where the work is, well if some people on this thread get thier way, then people up here that need work will have to compete with people down south legally or illegally immigrated that are happy to take $4.50 / hr. Our economy is too unstable to survive that.
Tell me more about Eric Scholsser. |
Gibran
Member
Username: Gibran
Post Number: 88
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 12:19 pm: | |
Thanks Mackinaw ...re-read your posts I must say I tend to agree with u ...so sorry...It was sure interesting in the great migrations of the last century...just hope everyone that comes really appreciates the work done to create the opportunities now. |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3227
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 12:54 pm: | |
Cambrian:
Two books: Fast Food Nation and Reefer Madness.
The first looks at how the fast food industry, with its' constant demand for bigger, faster, cheaper changed the food industry in the US.
(includes info on Reagan-era deregulation that led to slaughterhouses moving to parts of the country where unions were weak or non-exisitant, and the eventual recruiting of illegals to work in these places).
Second book talks about 3 facets of the "underground economy" in the US: Porn, Illegal immigration and Pot.
Makes the case that the government for years wasted time and money going after the porn folks on obscenity laws; eventually govt got wise, and decided to simply tax and regulate.
Makes the case that there are similar solutions to the pot and immigration issues.
Get them used on Amazon. Schlosser is the best investigative writer I've come across in a long time.
I'm still puzzled as to what state you are writing from, as you mentioned GA and illegals on welfare. GA was cut in MI in the early 90s...
No states that I know of provide welfare benefits to non-citizens. (if your kids are born here you can get food stamps, I think)
Still, the whole myth of people coming here for welfare makes no sense. These people come from countries where there is no welfare. Crossing the border is increasingly dangerous, as places like San Diego and Laredo have become more fortified.
I don't know how much traveling any of the gas bags here have done, but that's a trip that only ambitious people would attempt, and they usually have to pay smugglers to help them, so this idea that illegals are going to come here and just collect welfare is absurd. But maybe you have an actual example of "illegals on welfare"? Yes or no?
Take care of your kids first? Ok. Where do you live? They're already here! Southwest has seen an explosion of immigration in the last fifteen years, I think that it has died down a bit with the bad economy. But what other part of Detroit has so many new businesses and so many renovated homes? Part of that came with the boom of the 90's
but it's a perfect example of what happens when an old, dying neighborhood, abandoned by the grandchildren of the folks who settled there before meets a new, ambitious group of people who see opportunity.
Cities need fresh blood, or they die.
When new people come, there is more competition for jobs, but there is also more demand for goods and services, which I think means more work.
Dobry?
And if you want to talk about taking care of kids at home, today is the fourth anniversary of the Iraq War Fiasco.
Going to any demos? |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 311
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 2:05 pm: | |
Barnesfoto -
The children of illegals are citizens, and unfortunately they ARE entitled to government assistance. There are also programs like food stamps, public education and many others that have no requirement of citizenship at this time, although they should. Their health care is subsidized by taxpayer dollars as well.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 17, 2007) |
Thames
Member
Username: Thames
Post Number: 18
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 3:47 pm: | |
I don't dispute the contributions that immigrants make. I DO have a problem with illegals. If the companies that hire these hard working people really need to hire them, then do it according to our laws. Round up your potential employees, pay for a background check, pay for their physical, chest x-rays and blood work. Once they pass those tests, pay for their application fees and filing fees. Sponsor them. Everybody knows a LEGAL immigrant can't get here without a sponsor.Follow the rules like everybody else does.After all the costs of doing business lawfully, is it still a bargain to hire them?
If those companies can save money by breaking the law, why can't I? Why can't I decide that the minimum wage law hurts my business and choose to ignore it? Why can't I choose that payroll taxes cut into my profits and decide not to pay them? |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 312
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 3:50 pm: | |
There is absolutely zero doubt that tax dollars are used to subsidize poor people, which is fine. I agree we need to have a temporary safety net of some sort for OUR citizens.
The question becomes can we afford to extend that to the poor people of other nations as well. If liberals feel we should do that, then we will be getting millions of people clamoring to come to America to receive those benefits, as many are doing now.
Any time you subsidize something you get more of it. The Parklane hospital case is very revealing, it shows that people are having kids that literally cannot scrape together $200. Is that a wise decision? Why would you have children you have no means to take care of? Enabling people to do that in the name of compassion in the long run will mean more misery for everyone.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 17, 2007) |
Livernoisyard
Member
Username: Livernoisyard
Post Number: 2821
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 3:55 pm: | |
quote:If liberals feel we should do that, then we will be getting millions of people clamoring to come to America to receive those benefits, as many are doing now.
Liberals and radiclibs feel, whereas the rest of us think a lot more of the time. |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 174
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 6:28 pm: | |
Barnesfoto; Anarchists (and argueably Libertarians) want zero government. That is not what is being asked for, government has a vital role in the health of our way of life. Without it, we would be nowhere.
What is being proposed is government that is not ever expanding and intruding into Individual freedom. The main purpose of our government, as was intended by the framers of the constitution, is to protect the right to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, not assault it.
Controlled (or regulated) immigration is necessary to maintain a cohesive society and not be over run, or insidiously invaded (or both). As was stated earlier...enforce the laws that exist. |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 5032
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 7:58 pm: | |
Perfectgentleman, now we can agree. The Catholic Church ought to be handing out condoms at Communion. That might begin to solve your little fertility issue. Imagine denying YOUR fertility rights because your sperm crossed the wrong border. Imagine a country with free abortions for women carrying unplanned pregnancies.
The US Supreme Court told the Texas School Board that every child must be educated. That 1982 case, Rodriguez vs Texas, was a landmark for all American children. We don't ask kids how long they been in the district, from Maine to California. (And you think that's a conspiracy by teachers to keep up the numbers. So we should have a nation of street illiterates, stealing food off your table at a restaurant eh?) We should do the same thing now for these HS grads who can't get in-state tutions for college. Another American lost opportunity.
Scholarly immigrant children, graduates of American High Schools are denied in-state, outta state too. Our state colleges charge them INTERNATIONAL tuitions, like they were sent here by some Saudi oil Shiek.
Be a Perfectgentleman and refrain from silly comments about professors and profesors. Nobody tolerates personal attacks around here. Take the high road.
jjaba, tells it like it tis. |
Warrenite84
Member
Username: Warrenite84
Post Number: 54
Registered: 01-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 10:29 pm: | |
In reading this whole post, I cannot disagree with PG who backs up their comments with facts.
Here's an off the cuff suggestion:
Step 1:Build that border fence high and wide.
Step 2:Any illegals caught in our country immediately sent to boot camp, shipped to Iraq, or Afghanistan for one complete tour of duty. If they die, bury them in Arlington National Cemetary as a Citizen Hero. If they live, I will welcome them as a citizen with open arms and a social security card.
If they don't like those options, I'm sure they will be happy to wait in line like the rest of those abiding BY THE RULES! |
Opus
Member
Username: Opus
Post Number: 38
Registered: 08-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 17, 2007 - 11:10 pm: | |
Warrenite, I have advocated a similar policy for several years. As harsh as it may seem, there is some solid logic behind the concept. Since we cannot recruit adequate numbers of our own young people to fill our military needs, then extend the opportunity to those who wish to live here. There have been any number of ancient civilizations that extend citizenship rights as compensation for military service, I don't see why we don't offer the same. And for those of you screaming about using these pawns in our foreign policy game, remember, nobody is forcing them to do this, they do it by choice. I am against the Iraqi occupation that was based on lies, but, I am very much in favor of the action in Afghanistan. If these young men and women really want to come to our country, then let them show their commitment up front, and then we will show them our commitment. By the way, if you cross the border going south and are caught you are a criminal and they will put you in jail. Doubt this? Look into, there are many cases that have occured over the years. They get a little hot under the collar when you don't respect their national borders. |
The_rock
Member
Username: The_rock
Post Number: 1633
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 7:51 am: | |
Come on perfectgentleman. You present what appear to be cogent statements in support of your viewpoints and then attack jjaba from a purely personal standpoint. Personal attacks on other members, insults, petty statements like pointing out simple spelling mistakes which on this Forum are more often than not due to typing skills than spelling ,do nothing to advance your views in the eyes of others.
How many times does Lowell have to remind us to act like ladies and (perfect)gentlemen?
Is jjaba a friend of mine? Yes, sure he is. But civility applies to ALL of us and is the key to an intelligent exchange of viewpoints on the Forum. I am sure far from perfect, and I've made my personal attacks and have regretted them.
Let's keep our comments above board. |
Oladub
Member
Username: Oladub
Post Number: 21
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 10:17 am: | |
The last I've heard, there is a proposed $2,000 penalty provision in the immigration reform bill that illegal immigrants would have to pay to remain in this country. This is a bargain. For $2,000, immigrants gets economic opportunities, free educations, and, if need be, free medical care and other benefits superior to those they left behind. Legislation is proposed that would allow illegal immigrants to collect social security working 18 quarters instead of 40 like the rest of this. What a deal. Our government is selling potential citizenships for $2,000 when they must be worth more than $100,000. This won't do much to discourage future illegal immigration.
Meanwhile, my son's friend married an Australian woman. The friend was a nurse in Minnesota until he was called up and required to work at Walter Reed in D.C.. Every six months the immigration department required his wife to talk to someone in their Minneapolis office. Because they had a baby, they would have to travel all the way from D.C. To Minnesota to have a ten minute conversation. It isn't like there are no government offices in D.C.. There is this disconnect. Illegal immigrants are almost bribed to stay here while legal immigrants are pestered.
Perfectgentleman- It is by custom that children born here of alien parents are considered citizens. Wealthy Asians flying here for their ninth month of pregnancy so their baby will have dual citizenship. They recognize how much a US citizenship is worth. What the Constitution says is,"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, AND SUBJECT TO THE JURISDICTION THEREOF, are citizens of the United States and the States wherein they reside." Question: Is the baby subject to the jurisdiction, or a subject of, the US or some other country?
My solution? Make employers liable, as sponsors, for all taxpayer expenses incurred by the illegal immigrants they employ. If these employers want to do something illegal to give themselves advantage, they can assume the risk. |
Thames
Member
Username: Thames
Post Number: 19
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 11:30 am: | |
The United States absolutely, positively, does not recognize "dual citizenship" |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 315
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 1:24 pm: | |
The_rock -
I have been called a mental case, a racist on numerous occasions, ignorant and an asshole on this very thread. I would be more than happy to keep things on a more civil level but I don't believe in unilateral disarmament.
Jjaba quote:
"Everybody has a neighbor, a buddy, a relative with a beater. If you can't find one in your block or at your bar, you are so social isolated, you must live in a mental hospital. "
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 18, 2007) |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 316
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 1:29 pm: | |
The question of birthright citizenship is very relevant here:
From the civil rights bill of 1866:
"All persons born in the United States and not subject to any foreign power, excluding Indians not taxed, are hereby declared to be citizens of the United States."
Was this meant to extend to illegal aliens? That is debatable when reading the language. A person with dual citizenship, which Mexico allows, could certainly be construed as being subject to a foreign power.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 18, 2007) |
Jjaba
Member
Username: Jjaba
Post Number: 5036
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 3:10 pm: | |
Perfectgentleman brings up the latest debate about "Dropping a baby on USA soil." Somehow there's a grand conspiracy of coming to USA to have a baby as a ticket to citizenship for the whole family. Nothing can be farther from the truth. Such citizenship does not extend to foreign-born siblings nor the parents.
This begs the basic question. The USA needs more people to run an aging society. jjaba invokes Europe and Japan as examples of dying civilizations. If we don't have 2.1 babies per mother of child bearing age, you must import people to do the work and run the place.
Focus the debate on social needs, not nationalism, costs of the poor, and other punishments for living here. The diversity of our country strengthens us, not drags us down.
Let's not be so hostile as to isolate our new neighbors.
In Holland by example, the Muslims are so isolated in apts. with Al Jezera on tv, they hardly know anything about their adopted home.
That's a bad consequence of being so hostile. Those unwanted babies talked about are not exclusively Mexican either.
jjaba, Westside Bar Mitzvah Bukkor. |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3229
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 3:44 pm: | |
Barnesfoto thinks that those dutch muslim folks watching Al Jazera live in suburbs that they seldom leave.
But surely they think that they know all about the world. It's so much easier to tell people what the world looks like when you've never seen it, and when barking heads on TV give you lines to parrot.
Barnesfoto thinks people should get out of their suburban foxholes and see the world.
Barnesfoto does not usually refer to himself in the third person, but he does it to show solidarity with Jjaba. An insult to Jjaba is an insult to all, even to eastsiders. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 317
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 4:04 pm: | |
Jjaba -
The citizen child of illegal immigrant parents can sponsor said parents for citizenship. As a practical matter, it is well known that having a child here is a path to citizenship, that is where the term "anchor babies" comes from.
The birth rate in the US amongst "natives" is 2.1, we are higher than Europe, mostly due to Christian conservatives, with one of the most "fertile" groups being the Mormons. I agree Europe is doomed for demographic reasons. Actually the birth rate amongst liberals world wide is declining. You folks are literally aborting yourselves off of the planet. That is why we must be more vigilant than ever in preserving our way of life in the US as we are the last hope in the Western world of preventing the re-primitivization of the globe.
I reject your assumption that Muslims are isolated because of the hostility of the native population. You people constantly excuse the behavior of others based on some supposed "oppression" by the majority. What you fail to understand is that their religion is not compatible with the liberal world view of European countries, therefore they have no desire to assimilate.
France is finding this out in a very jarring way in recent years. These new arrivals are very "culturally assertive," they do not run away from their heritage like many in the West seem to be doing. Unfortunately the regimes many of them have lived under have terrible records in terms of human rights and tolerance for other religions and cultures. You must understand that they do not leave these beliefs behind at the border.
The US treats Muslims better than they were treated in their home countries, even though we were attacked by their co-religionists on 9/11. Yet, many Muslims here align themselves with groups who are calling for the slaughter of all Jews and the destruction of the USA. Thousands marched in the streets in support of Hezbollah last summer during the war in Lebanon.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 18, 2007) |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 318
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 4:11 pm: | |
Barnesfoto -
You are the one clearly drinking kool-aid, not me. In the words of the great Ronald Reagan:
"Don't be afraid to see what you see."
I am intellectually honest, I have no blind loyalty to a world view when I see evidence that it is not based on logic. Your views seem to be based on guilt, political correctness and raw emotion.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 18, 2007) |
The_rock
Member
Username: The_rock
Post Number: 1635
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 4:34 pm: | |
Although this particular thread continues to bare raw emotions and obvious divergent viewpoints, I don't feel perfect gentleman or anyone else on the Forum should be subjected to personal name calling, pure insults and the like. Civility in a post would add credibility whereas pure spite adds little.
Take away all the venom, I find this particular debate among the best I have ever read. I don't contribute anything heavy, never have; but I sure appreciate a good thread and this one ranks right up there.
But I don't control the shots, and will leave the monitoring to those in charge.
By the way perfect gentleman, tell your husband I salute him. "non sibi sed patriae". |
Gibran
Member
Username: Gibran
Post Number: 91
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 5:31 pm: | |
I don't pretend to know any of the answers...other than If people coming here worked hard to become citizens and kept their the cultural pride but respected others it would be a start....My son just called from South Padre' and said he was chased off a beach by _____ people saying that it was a ___________ beach and that you ______are not welcomed. They asked a police officer to help and he laughed and walked away. They the went to the desk Help at Le Quinta and asked what they should do. The staff being of the same heritage as the folks on the beach Laughed at them and said there is nothing they can do....My point here is these types of incidents while not always generalizable represent prejudice and that is what I fear the most in our country; that we will have layers of people, that do not interact because of their differences. The blanks in the story of my son and his friends could be filled in with any group..the sad part is the galvanizing feelings incident like this create. We have seen the effects of prejudice in our cities and lives. It is an ugly thing. I also know that new immigrants have been part of our social fabric since the start of our great experiment called democracy. We have to stop the HATE, stop labeling, stop the madness of cultural isolation and having any group isolate learn to hate their neighbors....I think whether you are Jewish, Christina, Muslim, Hindu or whatever, you should see the diversity of others and find a common goal. We can't effect the past and forgiveness is in order. What are the options, going back and throwing out the hard work of the civil rights struggle, the ADA and other struggles. Do we really want apartheid here. Would it be better if we all realized that diversity is great and that our country has got to make tough decisions...and we need answers not politics. If people coming into America want what is best for their new adopted country, they should work hard to become US citizens and we should reform immigration laws based on current geopolitical circumstances....most people coming in illegally are escaping something. However, now that they are here they should respect and build a bridge to their future in a multicultural country. As I stop rambling I should conclude that I have seen hate and I have seen isolation based on socio-economics and we as a nation need to address the root causes of conflict not the surface feelings. Hate is not a value that we as a nation can afford. |
Thames
Member
Username: Thames
Post Number: 20
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 6:46 pm: | |
Responsible people have less children because they can't afford them. I would have liked more kids, but my money goes to taxes that fund more and more social programs so I can feed other people's children and take care of their health care needs. Also care for illegal aliens. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 319
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 7:20 pm: | |
Gibran -
I don't see that anyone is advocating hate here. My point is that the rights and privileges of citizenship also come with responsibilities. One of those responsibilities is obeying our laws. Coming into a country illegally while others wait years go go through the legal process is not respecting the rule of law.
Providing a false social security number to get a job is against the law. Getting medical care you have no intention of paying for is breaking the law. I hate to say this, but hospitals are a business. If you ran a business where 1/2 of your customers didn't pay how long would you be open? Unfortunately many hospitals have closed because of this problem.
The differences you say divides people is a result of multiculturalism! We are not demanding that people assimilate as we did in the past. People are holding on to their language and their allegiance to their former countries. English is no longer the primary language in many areas of the Unites States. The streets of Southwest Dearborn do not resemble America as almost every sign is now in Arabic. When this issue was brought up in Sterling Heights by the fire dept, who were asking that buildings be marked with English as well as Arabic so they could recognize what the place was, lawsuits were threatened by the ACLU and the Arab community. This lack of assimilation leads to isolation and isolation breeds mistrust which in turn breeds racism.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 18, 2007) |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 320
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 7:57 pm: | |
The_rock -
I am a guy and not married so I don't have a husband to salute, but thanks for the thought.
From one of those right wing sites you guys hate:
Dear President Bush:
I'm about to plan a little trip with my family and extended family, and I would like to ask you to assist me. I'm going to walk across the border from the U.S. into Mexico, and I need to make a few arrangements. I know you can help with this.
I plan to skip all the legal stuff like visas, passports, immigration quotas and laws. I'm sure they handle those things the same way you do here.
So, would you mind telling your buddy, President Felipe Calderon, that I'm on my way over? Please let him know that I will be expecting the following:
1. Free medical care for my entire family.
2. English-speaking government bureaucrats for all services I might need, whether I use them or not.
3. All government forms need to be printed in English.
4. I want my kids to be taught by English-speaking teachers.
5. Schools need to include classes on American culture and history.
6. I want my kids to see the American flag flying on the top of the flag pole at their school with the Mexican flag flying lower down.
7. Please plan to feed my kids at school for both breakfast and lunch.
8. I will need a local Mexican driver's license so I can get easy access to government services.
9. I do not plan to have any car insurance, and I won't make any effort to learn local traffic laws.
10. In case one of the Mexican police officers does not get the memo from Pres. Calderon to leave me alone, please be sure that all police officers speak English.
11. I plan to fly the U.S. flag from my house top, put flag decals on my car, and have a gigantic celebration on July 4th. I do not want any complaints or negative comments from the locals.
12. I would also like to have a nice job without paying any taxes, and don’t enforce any labor laws or tax laws.
13. Please tell all the people in the country to be extremely nice and never say a critical word about me, or about the strain I might place on the economy.
I know this is an easy request because you already do all these things for all the people who come to the U.S. from Mexico. I am sure that Pres. Calderon won't mind returning the favor if you ask him nicely.
However, if he gives you any trouble, just invite him to go quail hunting with your V.P.
Thank you so much for your kind help.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 18, 2007) |
Patrick
Member
Username: Patrick
Post Number: 4156
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 8:14 pm: | |
So, what should be done about anchor babies? Honest question... |
Gibran
Member
Username: Gibran
Post Number: 92
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 8:32 pm: | |
Dear Perfect> while we may disagree a little on some of the details I think we agree that we should assimilate and this is a English first country....my grandparents painstakingly insisted that my dad and his siblings see themselves as Americans( they were first generation). The Arabs that came over in the 1900's saw them self as American...I don't know why the new generation does not. I remember my dad and his friends, scratching their heads with some their own new immigrants that didn't embrace all the great things this country had to offer. He kept his language and culture, and was very proud of it, however he also loved this country enough to enlist at 17 and serve the country...his immigrant parents from Lebanon also felt that success in this country was becoming totally involved it it ...sure they missed their homelands , I am sure most immigrants do...But to sue over signs would have been unheard of in my grandparents generation........we must be failing to reach-out to new immigrants choosing isolation as an alternative. Another point on th esubject,Our current misgovernment has the desire to drive up profits of corporations, which would be fine if it was passed down or even trickled down (what a joke)on the back of cheap labor...This sounds like the robber barons of the 1800's... so we really need a unified voice, from both sides of the political coin. We can differ on how but we better come together on the clear violation of our rights. On immigration we need a comprehensive American Marshal Plan. Thinking outside the box in due. I see many good points on this post from opposite ends of the political spectrum....to bad this debate is not occurring all over. |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3233
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 8:39 pm: | |
Funny, the street signs in Dearborn were in English the last time I drove through...but the numbers on all the houses were Arabic in origin!
Somebody needs to start a campaign to change our numbering system to the Roman System to reflect euro-centric values!!!
Anybody raising their own foodstuffs yet? Nope?
Still supporting the wages of illegals? Yep?
I thought so. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 321
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 8:48 pm: | |
Patrick -
The law as interpreted thus far in regard to birthright citizenship should be rescinded for all future visitors to the US. This would at least keep the problem from growing every year and discourage people from coming here for that purpose.
As for those anchor babies that are already here, their citizenship should be retained. No guarantee of citizenship should be offered to the parents or extended families however. They should go through the legal process as is expected of everyone else.
Gibran -
Your family is an example of what works and what is needed today, which is all I have been saying. If you are implying that certain Republicans have sided with business to exploit cheap labor, you would be correct in my view. The fact that the US Chamber of Commerce is for amnesty is damaging to their credibility.
Barnesfoto -
Maybe you could tell me what this sign says, I am having trouble reading the "English" on there:
|
Gibran
Member
Username: Gibran
Post Number: 93
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 8:52 pm: | |
open: :} oh and Middle-eastern book store :} |
Cheddar_bob
Member
Username: Cheddar_bob
Post Number: 897
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 8:54 pm: | |
It looks like "Middle Eastern Bookstore" to me. And "Open". |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3234
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 8:56 pm: | |
Go to Dr. Haddad in Dearborn, my eye doctor. He's the best! You need your eyes checked.
It says "Middle Eastern Book Store" and "Open"
Time to get to work your campaign against the use of arabic numbers! Remember to use only Roman numbers in your posts from now on! |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 322
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 9:04 pm: | |
Clearly I wasn't referring to the tiny letters in English above the door but the enormous Arabic letters that span the entire awning. If you think that signs like that paint a picture of a community that is trying to "fit in" in a country where the national language is English then you are mistaken. It appears more like certain people are setting up a miniature version of their NATIVE country within our borders. |
Barnesfoto
Member
Username: Barnesfoto
Post Number: 3235
Registered: 10-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 9:13 pm: | |
Dr. Haddad also has an office in Troy, he can help you read the tiny letters. And you won't even have to go to Dearborn!
His address is CCCLV E. Big Beaver. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 323
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 9:15 pm: | |
I think I will pay a visit to that store and see if I can find some good, balanced books on Arab Israeli relations... 
Maybe they could tell me why Hamas, Hezbollah and the President of Iran, who all seem to be pretty popular in the Arab community want to annihilate the Jews.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 18, 2007) |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 324
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 9:28 pm: | |
As long as we are airing out our Arab "street cred," my ex wife is 1/2 Lebanese, I had an Arabic band at my wedding and attended a Melkite Catholic church regularly, even though I was raised a Presbyterian. I have nothing against Arabs.
At the same time, I think bending over backwards to accommodate a community who has certain members whose views run directly counter to American values and interests is not necessarily a "good thing." When the owner of a restaurant I really like, "La Shish," is accused of supporting terrorists, it bothers me. We are all innocent until proven guilty but you must admit it is troubling. |
Cambrian
Member
Username: Cambrian
Post Number: 805
Registered: 08-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 9:51 pm: | |
"Time to get to work your campaign against the use of arabic numbers!"
I saw something on PBS that said our number system 1-9, the digits, were actually from India. 3rd century AD, possibly? The zero came later. |
Jimaz
Member
Username: Jimaz
Post Number: 1730
Registered: 12-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 9:56 pm: | |
The zero was an Arabic invention. It started as a dot. It's odd to think that someone had to invent "nothing." |
Gibran
Member
Username: Gibran
Post Number: 94
Registered: 02-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 10:10 pm: | |
Actually Perfect I was supporting you....but my humor was lost oops....
I think the real answer is of peace and forgiveness or groups will continue to grow like, Ha mas, Hezbollah or the Kahn groups. I lived in five states now and multiple cities and when we isolate ourselves and feel victimized we lose sight of the bigger picture...I am positive that a common thread needs to be developed, but all dissent does in create a power gulf...It is about a few controlling resources and if you keep people ignorant and divided you can control them...We need to embrace our value system where education, freedom to practice religion and have equal opportunities is the basic rights of all our peoples. Maybe we need to reach-out and work with these new immigrants so they do not feel isolated....but that also should be the responsibility of role models from their own communities... |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 325
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 10:18 pm: | |
To the libs:
Your next remarks will probably be something to the effect that "you can't judge an entire community by the actions of a few." If at any point you get stumped for rebuttals to my posts, I can help you out. It might be entertaining for me to argue with myself.
So in response to the above point, it is true that you can't judge a group by a few members. The problem I guess is that in certain cases, no criticism is ALLOWED in some groups unless you are a member. Anyone who criticizes a minority or illegal immigrants for example is deemed to be racist by the reactionary and infantile left.
I am surprised nobody has brought up Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, a person normally referred to as being in "my camp," even though he really wasn't. Even if he was an extreme right winger, I was all for killing him, and I wish I could have done it myself.
Therein lies the difference, liberals seem to take the extreme position that ALL immigrants, illegal and otherwise are "good for the country," when clearly that is not the case. Many folks are afraid to speak out against extremists in the Muslim community for example because they fear of being accused of being racist, as I have been numerous times. This practice of stifling debate tends to discredit the liberal side of the argument in my view.
We all need to accept the fact that there are "whites" that are engaging in bad things, and so there is harmful behavior being exhibited in any ethnic community. Kwame Kilpatrick said some very good things to that effect in his state of the city speech. We should openly discuss what we agree with and what we don't without having to resort to reckless charges of racism and xenophobia.
To that end, I think it works best if we all act as Americans first, and realize the tremendous gift that we have been given to be here. To that end, there is nothing wrong with defending our way of life and expecting others who come here to honor the rule of law and our way of life. And if they do not agree with the fundamental principles this country stands for then they should not be here.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 18, 2007) |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 178
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 18, 2007 - 10:18 pm: | |
I love that mock letter to the president regarding reversing the situation and think it should be published/repeated on the broader media. Even more satisfying would be to do so during any interview with any politiician to ellicit their response....the facial expression and the actual responses would be priceless. Well done PG. |
1st_sgt
Member
Username: 1st_sgt
Post Number: 50
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 12:27 pm: | |
Here is what is playing in Texas.
http://www.johnnytex.com/ |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 183
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Monday, March 19, 2007 - 10:08 pm: | |
OK...but we need a source that has some credibility and class to make the point seriously. |
Perfectgentleman
Member
Username: Perfectgentleman
Post Number: 326
Registered: 03-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 21, 2007 - 5:57 pm: | |
One final thought:
Even if you believe excessive immigration illegal and legal is benign or a net benefit to the US, it seems that the country of origins of these people will suffer if their most hard working or educated people bail out and come to the US. It makes matters worse in countries that if anything, need these people more than we do. So there is the issue of helping the individual person who comes here but the poor souls left behind in the third world seem to be worse off, not exactly a humanitarian position.
Basically what the pro-immigration crowd is saying is that we need these third world nations to fail, like Mexico, because we are dependent on their labor. If Mexico were to turn itself around (which their government and power brokers have no incentive to do as long as they can export their poor to us), I suppose that would be a net detriment to us here because workers would stay there. Nobody is arguing this of course because too many people fail to see the contradictions in their own arguments.
(Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 21, 2007) |
Ccbatson
Member
Username: Ccbatson
Post Number: 191
Registered: 11-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, March 22, 2007 - 6:01 pm: | |
It is a good thing for both countries if the talent immigrates here (much as they would disagree..at first). We get the talent which helps our economy, and the country from which they came starts to realize that capitalism is a good thing......I know, it isn't going to happen, but...... |
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