  Sharmaal Member Username: Sharmaal Post Number: 1023 Registered: 09-2004 |
http://detnews.com/apps/pbcs.d ll/article?AID=/20070315/UPDAT E/703150460/1003 | ||
56packman Member Username: 56packman Post Number: 1113 Registered: 12-2005 |
paging Mr. Trainman, call for Mr. Trainman | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 162 Registered: 02-2007 |
"paging Mr. Trainman, call for Mr. Trainman" Funny, he's never around when you want him. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1084 Registered: 04-2006 |
I just got an invitation mailed to me, at my house! | ||
French777 Member Username: French777 Post Number: 121 Registered: 10-2006 |
see.... the city is improving because they actually want to here from us!! | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1104 Registered: 11-2004 |
This should be interesting. Here is the chance for everyone to make their voices heard. Here are the times and places of the meetings. # Wednesday, 11 a.m.-2 p.m., at the The Guardian Building Mezzanine Lobby, 500 Griswold, Detroit, MI 48226 # Wednesday, 5-8 p.m., Wayne State University's McGregor Memorial Conference Center, 495 Ferry, Detroit # Thursday, 5-8 p.m., University of Michigan-Dearborn's Fairlane Center, Room D -- South Building, 19000 Hubbard, Dearborn # Saturday, March 24, 10 a.m.-1 p.m., Samaritan Center's Carolyn Cheeks Kilpatrick Conference Center, 5555 Conner, Detroit | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5233 Registered: 10-2003 |
Wow, DDOT being proactive? Thought I'd never see the day. It's good to hear that they want to be an listening ear. That is crucial in anything that moves forward. | ||
Billpdx Member Username: Billpdx Post Number: 31 Registered: 05-2006 |
http://mlui.org/growthmanageme nt/fullarticle.asp?fileid=1711 6 good info. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 268 Registered: 12-2006 |
Not to be a cynic here or anything, but DDOT may be listening to the public because the Federal government requires it  | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 170 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Not to be a cynic here or anything, but DDOT may be listening to the public because the Federal government requires it" What the folks are saying Mr. Literal is that they usually don't achieve or even hardly consider the requests from the general public. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5239 Registered: 10-2003 |
Good point, but, they could have done what many municipal and state institutions have done, and that's ignore government grants for transportation, altogether. Then, they wouldn't have to talk to the community. lol | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 480 Registered: 03-2006 |
Billpdx good post...I wonder what kind of similar effect a PM expansion to NEw Center along with the light rail connection of a major corridor to the suburbs (preferably woodward) would have on Detroit as occured in Portland | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 173 Registered: 02-2007 |
Not much when you have a city with high crime, low literacy rates, and only 11% of folks with some type of Degree. The most we will have is a high rise and a few more conventions if those routes do come to par. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5245 Registered: 10-2003 |
None of those are excuses for a crappy mass transit system, or to keep it crappy. It has been said before, but freedom of movement, especially in an area of this size with such a decentralized economy, isn't a priviledge, it's a right. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 362 Registered: 04-2006 |
I'll be at the meetings protesting the BILLION dollar NEW downtown Detroit freeway that will cost the city of Detroit over $70 Million per year to pay for DDOT. But, wait a minute? Why should a Livonia resident care about DDOT? I still have DDOT bus service to work even thought I'm forced to drive due to my working hours. I'm a 24 hour, 7 day a week emergency worker and my job is the safety of mass transit passengers in Michigan, Ohio, Indiana and Illinois including the CTA and Amtrak. The worst that will happen is that I will be told, NO, Mr. Trainman, we are going to build this freeway for you and we don't care if you want it or not because it's written in stone in the SEMCOG TIP 2030 plan. We are truly sorry but you are too late because the freeways are too clogged thus must be expanded. | ||
Michmeister Member Username: Michmeister Post Number: 136 Registered: 10-2006 |
Cool, they can call themselves DSR again. Those were the days.... | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 180 Registered: 02-2007 |
There's Mr. Trainman, we've been waiting on you. | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 128 Registered: 10-2006 |
"None of those are excuses for a crappy mass transit system, or to keep it crappy. It has been said before, but freedom of movement, especially in an area of this size with such a decentralized economy, isn't a priviledge, it's a right." I suppose that you want the people who live in walkable, economical and sustainable places like NY to pay the taxes for this "right". The sad fact is that in areas of low density, it's going to be hard to sustain a viable transit system. The governments ability to support people who act like selfish idiots is running out. | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 129 Registered: 10-2006 |
And no, I don't want to pay for the freeway either. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5247 Registered: 10-2003 |
Nyburgher, without transit, we'll never rebuild the relatively dense, walkable areas that used to exist in the city in great numbers. Detroit's future is tied inextricably to whether it can get rapid transit up and running, and more and more people are realizing that, which is why the sense or urgency is rapidly increasing. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 184 Registered: 02-2007 |
I was speaking of development. Development won't have a huge difference as Apbest was mentioning, mass transit or not due to the states economy and the issues within the city. Will admit one thing, it's a start as people will be more persuaded to come into the city and spend their time and money here. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 604 Registered: 12-2006 |
Right you are about the last part, Urbanize. Besides, I hate not having bus service in GP on Sundays. Means I have to drive to Tigers games. | ||
Buzzman0077 Member Username: Buzzman0077 Post Number: 31 Registered: 11-2006 |
I still hold to the idea that if we put in a rapid transit line, especially a hard line like light rail you will see density build around it. There is obviously a demand for that lifestyle in the metro and putting in mass transit will allow that demand to be expressed. | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 605 Registered: 12-2006 |
https://www.atdetroit.net/forum/mes sages/6790/60222.html?11739674 41 The hall of fame thread about streetcar memories. | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 130 Registered: 10-2006 |
I'm not sure why going out of your way to connect with the people who left the city is a priority.If they live in relatively dense areas or along corridors where density can be built then it can make some sense. The record of attempts to retrofit car oriented areas to mass transit use are not too good. Usually you end up with lines that cannot support themselves and require huge subsidies. Of course sliding more freeways in just decreases the chance of anything working. Looking from the air at Detroit shows a lot of open areas that could theoretically be built up in a sustainable way over time.I would focus on that and a few core lines out. Anyway the public's "right" to transportation is what got us into the socialist mess that we are in today. All moves to make people pay for the actual cost of their lifestyle are moves towards justice. I have never owned a car. I never lived or wanted to live in places where it was needed. I deeply resent paying for this crap as a taxpayer. | ||
Mayor_sekou Member Username: Mayor_sekou Post Number: 613 Registered: 09-2006 |
"I'll be at the meetings protesting the BILLION dollar NEW downtown Detroit freeway that will cost the city of Detroit over $70 Million per year to pay for DDOT." What freeway is this? | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 607 Registered: 12-2006 |
Exactly my question, sekou. | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 188 Registered: 02-2007 |
How many more freeways can they put into that small City Center? | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 609 Registered: 12-2006 |
Enough, I guess. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 363 Registered: 04-2006 |
The NEW freeway is the I-94 expansion from Conner to the Lodge which is adding another lane in both directions and new service drives. I am requesting that MDOT pay SMART and DDOT to remove cars off the freeways for those who work downtown and to connect Pontiac, Mt. Clemens and the Airport with 24 hour, 7 day a week public bus service to be included in the operating budget with the SMART property tax. This includes Livonia coming back by vote. The worst that can happen is they will say NO which they already have. I'm not taking NO for an answer and will go on television, if I can get people to support me. So, I'm making my request known to the public and have a petition drive to stop this freeway and also the I-75 expansion until SMART gets both permanent funding and the restoration of state funds. http://savethefueltax.tripod.c om/contents.html | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 204 Registered: 02-2007 |
What's the point of expanding I-94? Most NE siders use Gratiot, Warren, Mack anyway to go to and from work or Jefferson. The expansion would just be pointless. Now it would make a difference though if City Airport was put into use, and still, they still have Gratiot. (Message edited by Urbanize on March 17, 2007) | ||
Scs100 Member Username: Scs100 Post Number: 617 Registered: 12-2006 |
That expansion was supposed to happen a while ago. I thought it was finally dead. | ||
Trainman Member Username: Trainman Post Number: 364 Registered: 04-2006 |
The expansion is not dead and is alive and well on the SEMCOG website. The purpose is only to move trucks. The supporters of this project are the one's who directly caused the Livonia bus reductions. It is just morally wrong to take from the crippled who can't drive to support the large trucking industries and Wal-Mart. It's corporate welfare and is exactly why the SMART property tax and all other regressive mass transit tax increase proposals need to be defeated. | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1613 Registered: 11-2003 |
The link to the "I-94 Rehabilitation Project" MDOT page is at the bottom of this SEMCOG page, as Trainman indicates: http://www.semcog.org/TranPlan /Freight/index.htm The page is still there, but I also thought the project was mostly dead, with the current "fix it first" policy in the state. (The worst part of the project would be the extreme widening of the freeway due to new service drives being added.) | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1097 Registered: 04-2006 |
Doug is right. MDOT funds are being spent on mantaining the roads. You will find some improvements to address either safety or operational improvements; but those are only going in when the roadbed needs to be rebuilt. Anyone who commutes I-94 from I-96 to Conner knows that there are major problems there right now. In fact you can make a case that congestion along that roadway may eventually lead to the closing of major plants such as Tyssen, GM-Poletown, or Chrysler Jefferson as the congestion impacts the plant's ability to remain competitive with greenfield sites. The problem is that you can find the money to build it over the life of a 30 Year Plan, but you can't widen roads in the sort term while your whole network falls apart. Until DDOT and SMART are able to make substantial upgrades to service at the regional level, that congestion will be there as there are no other alternatives. In fact, even with major shifts to transit, you would not eliminate all congestion along that section of I-94 without widening. Our land use and pathetic levels of investment in both roads and transit will not allow it. Social norms play a role as well. We have all decided that we should all sleep at night, work during the day, and have evenings free for shopping or socializing. These decisons have forced us into having peak hours of use for our transportation needs. My suggestion? Get rid of half the roads regionwide and force the congestion. That way folks would make more rational decisions about where they live, work, and what mode they will use to get around. Too many folks have 30 mile commutes one-way. This forces them into cars - making it impossible for folks to walk or take transit to work. (Message edited by Detroitplanner on March 18, 2007) | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 233 Registered: 02-2007 |
"Anyone who commutes I-94 from I-96 to Conner knows that there are major problems there right now. In fact you can make a case that congestion along that roadway may eventually lead to the closing of major plants such as Tyssen, GM-Poletown, or Chrysler Jefferson as the congestion impacts the plant's ability to remain competitive with greenfield sites. The problem is that you can find the money to build it over the life of a 30 Year Plan, but you can't widen roads in the sort term while your whole network falls apart." That's taking it too far. MDOT never thinks about alternatives before jumping to conclusions. Only the Exburbers in majority commute I-94 every morning and evening, also, you just mentioned yourself, Jefferson is a major thoroughfare fore the Chrysler Plant. PoleTown plant has done just fine with how the freeway is, as it traffic typically loses it's grip as you get to I-75. Tyssen (you're talking about on Livernois) HAS LIVERNOIS and EASY ACCESS TO OTHER MEGA AVENUES. Those are not excuses for expanding the expressways. Also, the C-J plant from what I see always commutes just fine to the contour plant on Mound using Connor to 8 Mile, NO FREEWAY! Transit would be best. Out of all the expressways during the morning, I-94 generally has the lightest traffic jams out of al of them (morning and rush hour). If they really want to commute to and from the city using rapidly, let them ride transit instead of mega-sizing another freeway. You're speaking as if it's a big industrious thoroughfare through the area they're widening. NOPE. IT's mostly a thoroughfare for the residential commuters who eitehr work in Commerce or industry. So again, some type of line (particularly along Gratiot of Jefferson) would ease the so-called congestion instead of widening the freeway. ALso, this line will have to offer top-notch service for people to ride it also. (Message edited by Urbanize on March 18, 2007) | ||
Dougw Member Username: Dougw Post Number: 1621 Registered: 11-2003 |
Some more details from Crain's on the DDOT plans: http://crainsdetroit.com/apps/ pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070318 /SUB/703160301&SearchID=732754 74344967 quote: | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1102 Registered: 04-2006 |
Urbanize, I don't understand your response/criticisim. Did you bother reading my entire response? Let me break it down for you: 1) The roadway will never get widened as it is more important to take care of what we have. 2) We need to invest in transit. 3) We need to make sure that our most important industries have a fighting chance. 4) We as a society need to walk more to get places. 5) Our land use and transportation funding decisions have forced us to drink out of the well we all piss in everyday. 6) People need to live closer to work. What is your definition of Exurban? Transit systems that end at the City boundary are no good. They need to extend to logical destinations and tie in seemlessly with other transit providers. (Message edited by Detroitplanner on March 19, 2007) | ||
Apbest Member Username: Apbest Post Number: 489 Registered: 03-2006 |
after reading that article there's absolutely no question that whatever plan is selected would have to go farther than 8 mile absolutely without question. Look at every single light rail system recently built in the country: Portland, St Lous, Minneapolis, Charlotte, etc....they all include suburbs/airports/malls/other important destintation that make it functional; and their actual city neighborhoods are probably alot more vibrant than many of detroit's core neighborhoods. But either way, the people you need to reach to in any equation, no matter what city, are the suburbs and greater metro (Message edited by apbest on March 19, 2007) | ||
Jonnyfive Member Username: Jonnyfive Post Number: 4 Registered: 03-2007 |
So did anybody go to any of the meetings with anything to report? | ||
E_hemingway Member Username: E_hemingway Post Number: 1112 Registered: 11-2004 |
Planning on going tonight. There's a story about them in today's News. City puts transit idea in motion Andy Henion / The Detroit News DETROIT -- After failing for decades to establish publicly funded rapid transit, the city of Norfolk, Va., will begin work this summer on an 8-mile-long, $230 million light rail system. Detroit -- plagued with many of the same problems -- sees no reason why it can't be next. On Wednesday, city transportation leaders launched a campaign aimed to overcome 50 years of failure and snag the federal money needed to create mass transit. Options include light rail and express bus service on one of five corridors: Woodward, Michigan, Grand River, Eight Mile or Gratiot. At the first of several public meeting, residents voted for their favorite route and officials say they'll use that input to help determine the winner. Woodward took the early lead with 18 votes to Michigan Avenue's seven. Norman White, director of the Detroit Department of Transportation, said a light rail system would cost an estimated $350 million. If the city proves ridership exists, the federal government could fund about half that; the rest would come from state, city or private sources. "We're one of the last two major cities in America (besides Indianapolis) that hasn't either started working on rail or started studying it," White said. "Detroit has always been in a prime position to move forward with rail, because the ridership is there and our population is there when you compare us to other cities that already have it." Detroit, for example, has 80,000 downtown workers -- compared to 35,000 in Norfolk, said Dan Meyers, a transit consultant working for both cities. Detroit also has more than twice as many bus riders, he said. "There were more challenges in Norfolk than there are in Detroit," he said, adding that both have been beset with urban-suburban turf wars, racial tension and political wrangling. Carl Jones, a 61-year-old plane mechanic who voted for Woodward, said the lack of mass transit hurts economic development. "In the long run, Detroit is suffering because we have no effective transit system," he said. "Everybody else -- Dallas, Portland, Minneapolis, Pittsburgh -- they all have it. http://www.detnews.com/apps/pb cs.dll/article?AID=/20070322/M ETRO01/703220370 | ||
Urbanize Member Username: Urbanize Post Number: 312 Registered: 02-2007 |
Wouldn't putting a route along 8 Mile be going out the world backwards. It's a 5 lane mega-highway 8 Miles from downtown. If aynwhere, Jefferson would be the next best candidate. Loo at all the atwater attractions and commuters from GP. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2897 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: I'd better spell this out because this is after all--Detroit. The sum of 18 and 7 is all of 25. That was some packed meeting. Imagine! Getting all of 25 people at one time. And look at that low-ball figure of $350 million! What do they plan to put it for that figure--a Lionel or HO gage? And another convenient lie: The Feds would put up about half. Maybe a maximum of 40% (is this the "close to half?") from the Feds for the capital cost might happen. However, don't look to the Feds for any help with the expensive operating costs. In any event, if the rapid transit boosters ever plan to demonstrate that ridership exists, they best plan of getting a bit more than 25 souls per meeting... | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1124 Registered: 04-2006 |
I went to tonight's meeting. There was probably about 15 people there from the public and about an equal number from DDOT and thier consultant. I went there trying to be a fly on the wall, but too many of the DDOT folks knew me. My biggest concern was that the project should not end at the city limits. Too many of the newspaper articles or the letter I received appeared that way. I was relieved to hear that they were not and others were bringing up that the lines need to go further. For example, The corner of 8 Mile and Grand river is about a half mile from the City Limit, yet the study area only went to Five Points. It would be better to make sure there was at least a connection at that corner and that the 8 Mile corridor also included some sort of stop at Northland. | ||
Professorscott Member Username: Professorscott Post Number: 275 Registered: 12-2006 |
LY, Well, if Norfolk's 8 mile long LRT system costs $230 million, then that is about $29 million per mile, so a $350 million system at the same cost per mile would be about a 12 mile long system. Also, are you surprised that only 25 people would come to (or at least vote at) such a meeting? My impression of you is that you've been involved with government at some level. Nobody goes to these things unless they perceive some harm to their own interests. The FTA New Starts program typically provides 50% of capital costs, not 40% as you suggest. Nobody ever provides any real help with operating costs. Detroitplanner, it is not sufficient to bring such a line up to the City limits; it has to go further. For instance, a Woodward LRT line would have to go at least as far as downtown RO in order to make sense as a commuter-based system. Just a few thoughts... | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2898 Registered: 10-2004 |
Strange! But I remember back during the 1960s to 1980s where many transit systems changed from private business to the public sector. Then, their size and scope got expanded. The socialists or whoever promoted and got the cities into transit were really good at low-balling projects (unrealistic cost projections to sucker-punch the taxpayers) and would get them only partially up and running before the funds ran out. Then the real cost would be raised by a factor of two to five or so. They would say that it's only partially built and if they quit then, it wouldn't be of much use. This is what I suspect will happen with Detroit's transit system. It cannot effectively run its own buses, so why should they do trains any better? Hint: They won't... Besides, the declining tax base would surely kill such projects dead in their tracks anyway. Just look at the trouble the city had with its trash pickup. And the zoo. And the aquarium where its local favorite fish died as a result. And the zoo on Belle Isle. And ... Those were very small peanuts compared to the capital expenditures and operating costs of a rapid transit system of only dubious worth anyway because the trains won't be going anywhere the buses either go or could go, and at much less money. (Message edited by livernoisyard on March 23, 2007) | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5282 Registered: 10-2003 |
Too bad, momentum is moving forward, like never before. You're going to be disappointed. | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 57 Registered: 01-2007 |
I went to the meeting at the Guardian Building Wednesday. It seems their biggest pitch was to get a system started in Detroit exclusively. The argument was that you could eliminate city/suburb bickering and get the program enacted more quickly. If the burbs wish to tie in, they would be welcome to. As for funding, the survey they handed out asked if a tax were levied, which would you prefer? Some of the options were upping the sales tax, service tax, property tax, income tax, toll roads, gas tax, etc. My top two transit road choices were Woodward and 8 Mile, though there were good arguments for Michigan Ave..Those who took the commuter train from the airport could take a LRT or BRT from the Dearborn station to Downtown, instead of having to go down Woodward also. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 490 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hoping to land federal funding for the project Too bad that won't happen. We have hundreds of millions to spend on a war, you know. Gotta protect us from, um, you know, something in Iraq, I guess. | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 59 Registered: 01-2007 |
Our sales tax is relatively low compared to the other states. IMHO, if a one cent raise in the sales tax would build, fund and maintain streetcar lines, I would be for it. I am not the tax and spend type, but on rare occasions, I do reconsider. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5284 Registered: 10-2003 |
Rhymes, I'm not sure you understand, or knowingly misrepresenting something to make a point, but the money is there for this if DDOT wishes to pursue this. | ||
Rhymeswithrawk Member Username: Rhymeswithrawk Post Number: 494 Registered: 11-2005 |
if a one cent raise in the sales tax would build, fund and maintain streetcar lines, I would be for it. I am not the tax and spend type, but on rare occasions, I do reconsider. But would the rest of the state be down with this when it would be helping out southeast Michigan? And Lmich, Bush has said he plans to try to reduce the federal deficit. That means less spending. I can't imagine that adding streetcars in Detroit - a blue city in a state that's gone blue the last few elections - would take precedence over larger, more integral projects in other cities and states. Don't get me wrong, I'd love to see it. But we do have the DPM, and the only time people ride it is from parking lots to the auto show, the Joe and to Greektown. It's empty far more than it's full. Not that the DPM goes everywhere you want it to, but the city - and it's suburban visitors - have not shown that they appreciate what they already have. Would be a tough sell in Congress, me thinks. And our Detroit representatives have neither the pull nor the respect to get the city that kinda pork spending. Maybe if Dingell got aboard. But even then... | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 61 Registered: 01-2007 |
All Federal monies come with strings attached. Part of the list of hurdles to jump includes transit integration. Busses work best when they are the ones that feed the LRT Lines. All our representatives, D's & R's, could push for funding by making the argument that this type of funding has helped other cities and states revitalize their cities. Detroit deserves equal treatment. Here is the Democrat's chance to put up or shut up in helping resurrect our state. Busses have been associated with dirty, infrequent, and dangerous, true. But ridership along the 5 chosen possible routes ran roughly 15,000-40,000 rides per day per road. When we invest in concrete and steel infrastructure, it is a fixed asset that would encourage ridership. The People Mover is nice but is accessible to few people, hence weak ridership. | ||
Warrenite84 Member Username: Warrenite84 Post Number: 62 Registered: 01-2007 |
If Grand Rapids and Detroit get rapid transit, the rest of Michigan would benefit from the improved business climate, and revitalized areas that attract investment. People like living near easy, accessible transit. Money and jobs follow people. | ||
Lmichigan Member Username: Lmichigan Post Number: 5288 Registered: 10-2003 |
Don't leave out Lansing. I believe CATA, here, is currently studying to see if Michigan Avenue could support a rapid transit line. | ||
Danjo444 Member Username: Danjo444 Post Number: 9 Registered: 02-2007 |
Anyone interested in the history of the DSR may like a history slide show/lecture this Sunday, March 25 at 2 p.m. by DSR Historian and Author Ken Schramm at Assumption Grotto Church, 6 Mile and Gratiot (in the adjacent school building). I went to one recently and it was great. Tons of old photos, stories. It was packed. Oh, I believe it's free...the last one was. |
