  Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1847 Registered: 06-2004 |
Some states (e.g. Wyoming) have been actively recruiting here to meet their labor needs while others turn to immigrant labor without making an effort to recruit domestically (e.g. western produce growers, Louisiana construction). What's the consensus here about immigration reform in light of the nation's (and Michigan's) unemployment rate? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2560 Registered: 02-2005 |
Open the borders, allow more workers to enter the US in general. I think that we should allow any and all immigration inflow to the Detroit area. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1848 Registered: 06-2004 |
ya wanna drive down the wages, eh? | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2562 Registered: 02-2005 |
The market will decide that. More than likely, it will only depress wages in a few sectors where inflow is extremely concentrated. And it will all balanced out when consumer's find that they can get certain products or services for cheaper. Technological advances and productivity increases may also negate any wage-lowering effects. It would be refreshing to see an area that has focused on artificial wages increases and entitlements for 6-7 decades to switch into a freer labor market. I don't see it happening. If we cut off immigration any more, we risk stopping the growth of the only large sector of the city which is growing: the southwest. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2769 Registered: 10-2004 |
SW Detroit apparently has too much unsustainable commercial growth based on the number of closures last year and its increasing vacancy rate of storefronts, especially along Vernor. A few have failed within as little as two months of being in "business." | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3197 Registered: 10-2003 |
What a tragedy, sorry to hear that sometimes businesses fail... At least someone is taking risks, and I think those taking risks are immigrants of some kind. I'm amazed at recent developments along Vernor, which include an Argentine Restaurant and a dollar store in the old Stratford Theater, which was one creepy ass crack den only a year ago. Vernor, and various streets that feed into it look WAY better than ten years ago. Blame immigration. I'm with Mackinaw, can we get some huddled masses yearning to breathe free to settle in Highland Park? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 250 Registered: 03-2006 |
"Open the borders, allow more workers to enter the US in general. I think that we should allow any and all immigration inflow to the Detroit area." There are 100's of millions of people that would come here if given the chance. Should we let them all in? We really don't need more illiterate people living in poverty, they are far more likely to be criminals, they consume more public services than the taxes they pay and many refuse to assimilate which is destroying the fabric of this nation. There is no example in history of a nation that has survived multiculturalism. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5014 Registered: 11-2003 |
350,000 Arab-Americans live in SE Michigan, including Detroit. This is a good example of how recent immigration has been a success in USA. 10,000 Banglegeshis recently moved into Hamtramck. Rents were too high and costs of living too high in Queens, New York so they moved to cheaper. They are dong just fine. A large population of Bosnians have joined them. Madison Heights is loaded up with Asian immigrants providing the best Asian food and imported goods in the region. Immigrants can thrive in USA. Labor will follow jobs and the Wyoming example is a good one, for Flint. We are a big country and labor Michigan can't use will find its way elsewhere in USA. Your Greek joint coney islands are now run by Albanians and Yeminites. They still taste pretty damn good, eh. Immigrants have been feeding us since the country began. We can't all eat bangers and mash from the UK. Next time you're in a hospital, hug a Filipino nurse. Get realistic about America. Many different kindz people have come to serve you. jjaba, child of immigrants. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 252 Registered: 03-2006 |
"350,000 Arab-Americans live in SE Michigan, including Detroit. This is a good example of how recent immigration has been a success in USA. " There were also over 10,000 Muslims marching in Dearborn in support of Hezbollah, a sworn enemy of this nation, during the war last summer with Israel. I am sure THEY ARE THRIVING, but I don't call that success. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 773 Registered: 08-2006 |
I agree opening the borders is a bad idea. Do you think the millions coming here to provide bosses with cheap labor won't need healthcare, that thier kids won't need to go to school, and that they won't need to eat when they are out of work? Would folks like Mackinac object to having thier taxes used to pay for those things? | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 875 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: This whole sentence is one racist stereotype after another. I'm not even sure where to start with this ignorant bigotry. | ||
Carolcb Member Username: Carolcb Post Number: 214 Registered: 11-2006 |
OK, I am sure this will make someone think, what, I don't know....but I was a substitute teacher when I also worked at the Sheriff's Department (on my days off). Let me tell you, in the poorer sections of town, the families who came from Mexico and South America, the parents were there every day to drive/walk the children to school, and a member of the family was there to pick the child up. Their clothes were clean and pressed, their hair was braided or whatever, their hands were always clean. The kids were there to learn. I would hate it if any of these kids thought we did not want them. However, in that part of town, the white kids and their parents were an absolute nightmare in every way you could imagine, and I swear I am not overstating this. It was enough to make you pull your hair out. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 876 Registered: 10-2003 |
Carolcb, you don't know what you're talking about. Didn't read what perfectgentleman said? All immigrants are poor, illiterate, criminals that go to the hospital waaaay too often, probably flipping you off on the way. | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4142 Registered: 10-2003 |
There is a common misconception that immigrants are lazy freeloaders. Newly-arrived immigrants are some of the hardest working people in America. They take nothing for granted. I only wish more Americans had this work ethic. With that said, can these people drive the wages down?? If you are a professional, then probably not. If you work in a lower-tier job…then maybe. I cannot completely criticize an immigrant since that is what my ancestors were. Being English, Irish, German, Greek, Russian, Italian, Lebanese, Scottish, Dutch and French-Canadian I would be a hypocrite. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 774 Registered: 08-2006 |
I still think that all the people rolling out the welcome mat would hit the ceiling once they found out these people needed healthcare via the state, or meals for thier infant child via WIC, section 8 rent and school for thier kids with free breakfast and lunches ala tax payer. (Message edited by cambrian on March 14, 2007) | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4144 Registered: 10-2003 |
A lot of people know this already, but if they are contributing to the workforce and paying taxes then so be it. It is better to have a hard working immigrant (legal or illegal) than some ghetto/trailer hoochie momma with 4 kids by 4 different daddies. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 877 Registered: 10-2003 |
Cambrian, how many immigrants do you know that use Medicare/Medicaid, WIC, and free school lunches? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 775 Registered: 08-2006 |
Probably a lot, how many people do you know C_B that go around advertising they are on GA? | ||
Patrick Member Username: Patrick Post Number: 4146 Registered: 10-2003 |
When I was in school the kids getting the free lunches were kids that lived in the “complex” across from the school. They were all from broken homes and their fathers pretty much ditched their mothers. So it’s not only immigrants getting aid. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 253 Registered: 03-2006 |
I have data to back up my position. As an example 90% of the outstanding murder warrants in LA are for illegal immigrants. The gangs out there are running rampant. The federal prisons have a huge numbers of illegal immigrants. Of course some immigrants are hard working people but the fact is that some areas are being overrun and it we cannot absorb the numbers that are coming here. It is obvious that our government cannot track them once they are here as 9/11 has proven so until we get handle on who is here, why they are here and what criminal records they may or may not have we need to enforce the border. The spectacle of Bush going to South America and Mexico and being shit on is amazing. He is FOR MORE immigration and he is still hated as is the USA in general. HE IS THEIR BEST FRIEND and he stands there and lets the president of Mexico BLAME US for his citizens fleeing his country!!! Why do we want people to come here who have more allegiance for their native land than the USA? The on-going case in Hazelton PA is a great example, they are going broke trying to accommodate the strain that too many illegals have put on their public services. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 14, 2007) | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 43 Registered: 02-2007 |
For me there has always been a very distorted line between Immigrant and "American" or more appropriately "US citizen". Looking at a bigger picture, practically everyone here is an immigrant, a few generations removed obviously. And the now "US citizens" that are "in" dont want the borders open to immigrants that are not. Lock the door behind them so to speak. The whole system is so racially biased it should be done away with on that basis alone. Let someone defect from Russia, and everyone from the President down, falls all over themselves to make them a citizen. Remember Elian Gonzales?? Janet Reno and middle of the night raids to apprehend him and make him a citizen. Then there are countries we have dual citizenship arrangements with, Come and go as they please. Then folks from Mexico are treated like stray dogs that wandered into our picnic. Or remember after Viet Nam, any South VietNamese that wish to migrate here were allowed to. And even immediately put into housing and enrolled on all of our social programs. I wonder how many Iraqis will come in after the present military debacle is resolved. After working around Mexicans the following has been noticed: the majority of them are hard-working, religious, and very family oriented. They just want a better way of life for their families, can't discount them for that. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 254 Registered: 03-2006 |
Sstashmoo - Janet Reno was throwing Elian Gonzales OUT OF THE COUNTRY. It is MUCH HARDER for Russians and Europeans to come here than from those south of the border. The VietNamese were brought here because they were being slaughtered after the fall of Saigon. We felt responsible for them. You are so mis-informed it is ridiculous. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2780 Registered: 10-2004 |
There was an account on the radio whereby some 40,000, mostly illegal, aliens in LA were active in gangs there and clogging jails and prisons. Was this merely a scare tactic, or is there more than an element of truth in this? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 776 Registered: 08-2006 |
For me it's simple socio economics. If you are wanting to open up borders so people can come here and provide companies a cheap alternative to paying a local low skilled local person a reasonable wage; How do you expect them to be able to function without GA? You can't rent a house, stack it with groceries and meds for the kids for $5 / hr. Does that mean if they can't afford it, they won't get it? WRONG! Now some one coming here to fill a good paying job via work visa is a different story all together. When my Great Grampa came here in 1913 from Poland, he had a number of good paying low skill jobs waiting for him that he could fill. That was the way of things then, factory owners paid what they had to get the orders out without so much bitching about it as they do today. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2563 Registered: 02-2005 |
Nativism now is the same as nativism in the 19th century or the 1920s. We can't revise history and say, "well, I guess letting in those Irish, Poles, and Jews wasn't such a bad thing even if they feared them back in the day, but these Arabs and Mexicans, no they're different, can't have them." No perfectgentleman, we can't let in criminals, but just about everyone else should be let in. America is nothing sacred either; if people want to make money here and send a remittance to another country, as long as that remittance is not to a terrorist group, then that's fine. We are a capitalist country in a global economy, not mercantilists and protectionists. We love to reap the rewards of globalization, but we don't want to acknowledge the harder aspects such as outsourcing of manufacturing jobs and the free flow of labor and money between countries. Metro Detroit, just as it tries to hold on to the old-guard of manufacturing, in vain, looks poised to be the last bulwark of anti-globalization and nativism. Sad, sad story. But it really is making Michiganders look quite provincial. We need less of this. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 878 Registered: 10-2003 |
perfectgentleman wrote: quote: Where did you come up with this statistic? Cambrian, answering my question with another question doesn't equate to an answer. "Probably a lot" is not an answer, either. You said that immigrants needed WIC/Medicare/caid, etc. How many do you immigrants do you know on government aid? If it's none, just say none. Do you even know any immigrants? | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 778 Registered: 08-2006 |
Like I said Bob, how many people do you know that walk up to you, stick out their hand and say :Hi! I'm a non US citizen, and thanx to your tax dollars, my children are well cared for"? | ||
Douglasm Member Username: Douglasm Post Number: 785 Registered: 10-2003 |
This seems to be an annual arguement. It is estimated by the Pew Hispanic Research Center that about 5% of the workforce in the U.S. is made up of illegal aliens. Something does have to be done, but in certain sections of the country, I would hate to see what would happen to the agriculture industry if they (as some have proposed) were all rounded up and shipped back. There's was interesting article on the economics of illegal immigration done last year for Business Week at www.businessweek.com/investor/ content/apr2006/pi20060407_072 803.htm And I agree with Sstashmoo's last statement. The little Central Washington fruit growing town I live in is split about 50/50 Anglo/Hispanic, and estimates I've heard put the population of "illegals" at about 20%. They ARE hard working people just trying to make a better life for themselves. I don't know the answer. We must control our borders, but we must come up with a viable guest worker program. We can't round up and ship back undocumented aliens, yet we can't just let them stay without some form of "punishment". There is no easy answer, and anyone who has one hasn't done his homework. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 257 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cheddar_bob - http://www.washingtontimes.com /national/20040720-120953-3166 r.htm | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 258 Registered: 03-2006 |
Douglasm - What we have now is chaos and anarchy, I don't think anyone is saying that we round them up and kick them all out. We do need an orderly system to decide who we want here and who we don't. Until we can enforce and protect our borders, all other measures are pointless. Why would someone come forward to register if he knows he can come and go as he pleases anyway? | ||
Sstashmoo Member Username: Sstashmoo Post Number: 48 Registered: 02-2007 |
Perfectg, There is no reason to insult me or anyone else on here. Be content in your ignorance, I find it most entertaining. The South Vietnamese were "brought" here, they werent offered US citizenship? Just made to take it? Elian Gonzales was not offered US citizenship?? Did he not CHOOSE to go back to Cuba with his father? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 260 Registered: 03-2006 |
Sstashmoo - No, Elian Gonzales was not offered citizenship, it doesn't look from the picture that HE chose to return does it?  Of course the Vietnamese were offered citizenship, would it have been better if they had been slaughtered for siding with us in the war? | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3198 Registered: 10-2003 |
PG said: "I have data to back up my position. As an example 90% of the outstanding murder warrants in LA are for illegal immigrants. The gangs out there are running rampant. The federal prisons have a huge numbers of illegal immigrants." FALSE whatta surprise, no source of the data... (perhaps it was a mass emailing attributed to a "retired San Diego PO?") http://www.snopes.com/politics /immigration/taxes.asp I've lived in neighborhoods in SW Detroit and Los Angeles that are filled with immigrants, some legal and some not, and I've never encountered any immigrant families on welfare other than one Puerto Rican family that lived next door to me... Of course, Puerto Ricans are Americans, since the US made their country a colony after the Spanish American War. Maybe some of you who have actually lived and worked in neighborhoods populated with immigrants could share your horror stories. Arabs in Dearborn, Bangladeshis in Hamtramck, Mexicans in SWD Detroit, the pattern I noticed most was hundreds of new businesses, more fixed up homes and a rise in property values. Oh, and new and better restaurants. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 879 Registered: 10-2003 |
Perfectgentleman, although your Washington Times article doesn't say where they got that figure, it is flawed. The closest thing to a legitimate statistic was in Heather MacDonald's testimony before a House subcommittee in 2005, she said that 95% of outstanding murder warrants in LA were for illegals. For the first half of 2004. This hardly gives you reason to throw out numbers as fact. To tell you the truth, I don't believe her anyway. Even if it were anywhere near that number, could it be because they flee the country at a higher rate than US citizens and not because they disproportionatley commit more murders than Americans? A University of California-Davis summary thinks so.... http://www.snopes.com/politics /immigration/taxes.asp http://migration.ucdavis.edu/M N/more.php?id=1495_0_2_0 Cambrian, okay, you're not going to answer the question so I'll take that as a no. You don't know of any immigrants that get government aid so you're talking out of your ass. I'd be surprised if you knew any immigrants at all. Personally, I know a lot of immigrants and none of them receive aid. I also know that illegal immigrants are not eligible for most government aid like WIC and Medicaid, nor would they apply for any type of aid because they don't want to be on the government radar. So, the open door people probably won't be changing their tune when they find out they will be paying for immigrants' free rides because it only happens in your head. | ||
Eric_w Member Username: Eric_w Post Number: 53 Registered: 02-2007 |
Legal immigration? Yes Illegal immigration? Hell no! | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 880 Registered: 10-2003 |
You beat me to it, Barnes. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3200 Registered: 10-2003 |
you owe me a drink then, CB. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 881 Registered: 10-2003 |
I owe you and Oldredfordette a drink for our ongoing battle against the stupid. If you both come to the picnic this year, you will both have a drink on me. Or maybe some pozole? | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 882 Registered: 10-2003 |
Oh, and by stupid I meant Karl. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3202 Registered: 10-2003 |
No pozole, too porky. Caldo de Camaron, now you're talking. And if they only had good Pho in SWD.... | ||
Irish_mafia Member Username: Irish_mafia Post Number: 790 Registered: 10-2003 |
"Open the borders, allow more workers to enter the US in general. I think that we should allow any and all immigration inflow to the Detroit area." ______________________________ ___________________ Damn Mackinaw! Gotta disagree sometimes. Make entry legal!!! Listen. This is really not the complicated issue that it is being made out to be by politicians that want to avoid responsibility: 1) The mexican border is a sieve. Seal it. Put up a wall and call it a day. 2) If our politicians including our beloved President feel compelled to let more immigrants in because it is the right thing to do for our interests as a country or even for their own beliefs of human dignity, then go ahead and make the law that allows this (legal) increase to happen. We can then do checks on the people coming into the country and gain taxes for their revenues earned. These same politicians that are whining about this issue have had the right to regulate the inflow of immigrants (legally) this entire time. They just do not want to take responsibility for the decision (easier to bitch). That's all that needs to be done. Problem solved. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 783 Registered: 08-2006 |
So bob you are saying that you know lots of illegal immigrants that bare thier souls to you and say, "Oh no not me I'm not receiving GA, and Oh no I would never send my kids to public school or take them to the doctor without paying cash for all services rendered" Sounds like you're the one on cloud 9. And yes I've known mexicans in my neighborhood, and unlike you I don't walk up to them and engage them in small talk about thier financial situation. It's a wonder a busy body like you has many friends! | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 883 Registered: 10-2003 |
I'm not talking about neighbors that you wave to, I'm talking about people I know personally. When you say that immigrants, especially illegal ones, will burden our society with their drain on public assistance I know you have no clue what the fuck you're talking about. How about just admitting when you're wrong? Is that so hard? | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3203 Registered: 10-2003 |
it's kind of easy to tell when your neighbors are not working...when they are not working, they are always home. Also, what state are you writing from? GA was eliminated in MI by the Engler Admin. Walls are expensive, are bad PR, and people hate them. (See: Berlin Wall, History of) A cost effective solution would be to streamline entry into the US, with a fee for entry. Maybe that would free up some border agents to focus on flow of things like coke and meth. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 267 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cheddar_bob - Statistics on both sides are debated, but there is alot of data that supports the fact that illegal aliens, as a group, commit more crimes. The very act of coming hear illegally is a crime so it is not surprising they would commit other crimes as well. Snopes, although a great site in many ways, leans left in many of its conclusions. It has already been proven that illegals overburden public services. Hospitals have been closed because they are forced to treat people that don't pay, schools overcrowded, prisons have excessive numbers of non-citizens, law enforcement stretched to the limit in areas with a high incidence of illegals. You can't look at a few people you know personally and conclude that there isn't a national problem. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 884 Registered: 10-2003 |
From what I've seen, the people who live along the border don't want a fence put up, either. The legal process of coming here for work or to stay is impossibly tedious, costly, and takes a long time. Maybe there wouldn't be so many people here illegally if this weren't the case. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 268 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cheddar_bob - Well, if you are referring to the people who actually own land near the border, many of their properties have been destroyed by people coming over. They have also been the victims of many types of crimes. They are pretty "pro-fence" from what I have seen... (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 14, 2007) | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 784 Registered: 08-2006 |
Yes bob, the few families you know personally can speak for the other millions of immigrants that want to come here and work for minimum wage. You oughta write a book so the clueless people who can't make ends meet in Detroit will know how its done. The title could be "how to raise a family with no help on $6 per hour". | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 269 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cambrian - Devastating logic. Kudos | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3204 Registered: 10-2003 |
say, PG got any more false info on LA to post? How to raise a family with no help on 6 bucks an hour? I think the trick is to live with many relatives for a while till you get a better job? A sure way to fight illegal immigration would be the formation of volunteer groups to work in fruit and vegetable harvesting. They could call themselves the Minutemen-Green Giants. Seriously, who has some personal experiences to share? I should confess that my family has benefited from the work of people who came here illegally. My mom has been watching that show, Dog Whipper, or whatever it's called, and using it to whip the rowdy family mutt into shape. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 885 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: I say you're wrong. I say that the vast majority of people that come here are law-abiding in every other way than how they got here. Do you think that it is a mere coincidence that nobody has posted on here about all the immigrants they know that are criminal fuck-ups but several people have said that the immigrants they know are diligent, hard-working, and aren't criminals? Sure, hospitals have closed but should they have turned away humans in need of medical attention? Maybe if the patients could attain social security numbers legally in a manner that is not impossibly difficult they would have had more impetus to pay. It's not like American citizens always pay their bills, either. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 270 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cheddar_bob - Yeah I guess no hospitals at all are a good thing. American citizens are footing the ENTIRE bill for the schooling and health care of illegals. The incarceration rate of Hispanics is 3 times that of non-minorities, sorry bout that. What the hell is having a social security card have to do with the "impetus to pay." When they go to the hospital they have no intention of paying and everyone knows it. An un-insured citizen IS expected to pay however, is that fair? We are literally providing services to illegals that our own citizens cannot get. So the message is follow the law and get screwed, break the law and you can get all kinds of free shit and have people like you tell everyone else how WE ARE THE ASSHOLES. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 785 Registered: 08-2006 |
Just to clarify, I agree that immigrants are humans too and deserve a fair shake. My objection is'nt too them as much as to the US biz owners who wish to get rich by paying these people slave wages with no medical insurance. But yes, I am a descendant of polish immigrants, and yes for generations there were dumb polack jokes because the poles would work for less money then thier American borne counterparts. I'd just like to see things fixed up for people all ready living here that need good jobs before we start inviting more people over to work in sweat shop conditions. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3205 Registered: 10-2003 |
"The incarceration rate of Hispanics is 3 times that of non-minorities, sorry bout that". Where? Where's your data to prove that? Where's your data to prove the "leftist bias" of Snopes? Where's your personal experiences living with immigrant populations? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 271 Registered: 03-2006 |
US Dept. Of Justice: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/c rimoff.htm The prevalence of imprisonment in 2001 was higher for -- black males (16.6%) and Hispanic males (7.7%) than for white males (2.6%) -- black females (1.7%) and Hispanic females (0.7%) than white females (0.3%) Actually, Hispanic crime is under-reported as some jurisdictions classify them as white non-minority. The Bias of Snopes is obvious as every conclusion they make in situations relating to politics that are not fact-based come down on the left, it is no secret. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3206 Registered: 10-2003 |
Ok, PG, congrats for use of actual facts; point in your favor on prisoners... But poor people are always overrepresented in prison because they can't afford good lawyers! Unconvincing argument on Snopes, though. Most of the gangs in LA are populated by American born folks. 18th St is one exception; Mara Salvatrucha has Salvadoran Roots, but at this point many of its members were born here. (Many original members have been deported to El Salvador) "I'd just like to see things fixed up for people all ready living here that need good jobs before we start inviting more people over to work in sweat shop conditions" Of course, I see your point. But if you remember all the empty storefronts in SWD 15 or so years ago, and all the new businesses that have been created by immigrants (and not all of them legal) not just in SWD, but also in Dearborn and Hamtramck, you realize that sometimes people come here and see possibilities that others don't see, and they create jobs too. And a walk through immigrant heavy cities like LA and NYC might give you the same conclusion. Eventually, Mexico and Central America need to figure out how to create jobs for their own people, but they have been mired in corrupt and despotic regimes for years (often with the support of our government and tax dollars). For the short term the easiest solution would be to allow more people through and charge them cover, since they often paying gangs of smugglers anyway. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5021 Registered: 11-2003 |
To be against immigration is just plain unAmerican. We all came from somewhere's else. USA adults have low fertility, just like Europe. You can't have a dynamic society without either native born replacements (2.1 children per mother) or immigration. Japan recently closed 2,000 schools and are in a population decline of severe proportions. They don't take immigrants. You wanna be like them? As for illegals, all of our forebearers were illegals. They just came to the dock and sailed here. There were no waiting lists, no quotas, just a country eager to grow. Our country is still quite empty and over time, everybody will acculturate. If you are worried about some immigrant taking your job, get more education. Only the bottom tier of employees is threatened. jjaba, sociology lesson. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 788 Registered: 08-2006 |
I'm not so much anti immigrant. I just don't understand how they can get by on such low wages without needing help from the gov't. Too me that is subsidizing some employer who wishes to avoid paying someone fair wages. I guess it's feasible that large groups of people can share a living space and expenses, and this is presumably how a lot of people do it. But to canonize the lot and say they would never cost us anything by being here is not realistic. Bar them completely no, monitor the faucet flow so there are equal #s coming in to equal amounts of open jobs that native americans needing work could take, but choose not too, yes. | ||
Detroitplanner Member Username: Detroitplanner Post Number: 1082 Registered: 04-2006 |
"There is no example in history of a nation that has survived multiculturalism." Hmm I suppose the United States or Canada don't count? These have always been countries with immigration and multiculturalism. Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California would not be boom states if it was not for them being so easy to migrate to from outside of the US. Windsor would be in a lot worse shape if it was not for all the Canadians moving there to get jobs in Metro Detroit. | ||
Thames Member Username: Thames Post Number: 16 Registered: 02-2007 |
I think the problem is not immigration, it's ILLEGAL immigration that's the problem. Working hard doesn't give you an automatic pass into this country We have a family member that came here from Canada. They had to have among other things, a physical which is paid for out of pocket. No insurance company, not even OHIP (Ontario Health Insurance Program) covers this exam. They check for TB and HIV and if you're infected, you're denied entry and rightly so. There are expensive filing fees and application fees on top of the costs for the x-rays, tests, and physical exam. It's not right that some have to pay and go through the proper channels while others break our laws. We all want a better life, but most of us don't go out and break the law to achieve that goal. Send them back, make them follow the rules too OR let them all stay and taxpayers can refund EVERYONE who has gone through the process properly. Also, if they are allowed to stay, anyone that has ever been denied entry due to TB or HIV or whatever should be allowed in too. If we are going to ignore the law for some then it should be an equal opportunity free for all. | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 46 Registered: 10-2006 |
Perfectgentlemen is a racist and an idiot. The scary thing is that a huge proportion of Americans think just like him. Absolutely stunning ignorance and yet another reason why metro Detroit is losing ground. A higher incarceration rate among Latinos says NOTHING about a potentially higher incarceration rate among undocumented immigrants. First, a huge proportion of undocumented immigrants are white, black, Asian or identify as "other". Second, the VAST majority of Latinos in this country are NOT undocumented. Most Mexicans in the U.S. have been living here for generations. The #2 group, Puerto Ricans, are American citizens as PR is part of the U.S. The #3 group, Dominicans, have been here for a couple of generations already. I would bet you that undocumented immigrants have LOWER rates of incarceration, as they choose to risk everything and come to this country to WORK and provide for their families. They aren't going to F--- things up like an Amercian citizen, whether white, black, Latino, etc. | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1708 Registered: 12-2005 |
quote:I recall reading an article about a recent study that concluded just that, at least for first generation immigrants. They found incarceration rates did increase in 2nd and 3rd generation though. I wish I had a link to that article. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 273 Registered: 03-2006 |
Crawford - Just because I state facts I am a racist? I back up my arguments with data. You can try to minimize the problem all you want. Your "bet" regarding incarceration rates for "undocumented" immigrants is pure speculation on your part. I left out the part about the data that shows that illegals have committed over 1 million sex crimes in the US. I can go on an on. These people are not heroes, they are abandoning their country and their families to get money. What are they risking? The Mexican government are exporting its poor people and its "problems" to us. If you think that is such a great idea, maybe we could export our welfare recipients to Canada? Oh, thats right, they aren't stupid like we are so they won't take them. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 15, 2007) | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 274 Registered: 03-2006 |
An example: On April 7, 2005, the US Justice Department issued a report on criminal aliens that were incarcerated in federal and state prisons and local jails. In the population study of 55,322 illegal aliens, researchers found that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about 8 arrests per illegal alien. Nearly all had more than 1 arrest. Thirty-eight percent (about 21,000) had between 2 and 5 arrests, 32 percent (about 18,000) had between 6 and 10 arrests, and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Most of the arrests occurred after 1990. They were arrested for a total of about 700,000 criminal offenses, averaging about 13 offenses per illegal alien. One arrest incident may include multiple offenses, a fact that explains why there are nearly one and half times more offenses than arrests. Almost all of these illegal aliens were arrested for more than 1 offense. Slightly more than half of the 55,322 illegal aliens had between 2 and 10 offenses. CRIMINAL HISTORY More than two-thirds of the defendants charged with an immigration offense were identified as having been previously arrested. Thirty-six percent had been arrested on at least 5 prior occasions; 22%, 2 to 4 times; and 12%,1 time. Sixty-one percent of those defendants had been convicted at least once; 18%, 5 or more times; 26%, 2 to 4 times; and 17%, 1 time. Of those charged, 49% had previously been convicted of a felony: 20% of a drug offense; 18%, a violent offense; and 11%, other felony offenses. Twelve percent had previously been convicted of a misdemeanor. Defendants charged with unlawful reentry had the most extensive criminal histories. Nine in ten had been previously arrested. Of those with a prior arrest, half had been arrested on at least 5 prior occasions. Fifty-six percent of those charged with a reentry offense had previously been convicted of a violent or drug-related felony. By contrast, under half of those charged with alien smuggling, a third of those charged with unlawful entry, and just over a quarter those charged with misuse of visas and other charges had previously been arrested. The criminal histories of these defendants were generally less extensive: more than 70% had been previously arrested fewer than 5 times. Sources: US Department of Homeland Security, US Immigration and Customs Enforcement, National Security Institute, National Association of Chiefs of Police, US Department of Justice | ||
Crawford Member Username: Crawford Post Number: 47 Registered: 10-2006 |
Really Perfectgentlemen? A study of INCARCERATED undocumented immigrants found that they were criminals and had been arrested many times?! That's just fascinating!! I'm sure I could do a study of INCARCERATED American citizens of, for instance, Finnish lineage and come to the exact same conclusions! Time to forcibly remove all the Yoopers up north and send them back to Helsinki! | ||
Jimaz Member Username: Jimaz Post Number: 1709 Registered: 12-2005 |
From The Daily Free Press, The Independent Student Newspaper at Boston University: Report examines the immigrant crime rate. quote:I believe this is the cited (lengthy) report: Social Anatomy of Racial and Ethnic Disparities in Violence. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3213 Registered: 10-2003 |
speaking of criminal activity, check out the Bush Family: http://www.oldamericancentury. org/bushco/bush_crime_family.h tm | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 275 Registered: 03-2006 |
You aren't bothered by 55,000 illegals committing almost 1/2 million crimes? This is only a fraction of the total prison population of illegals in US prisons. There are millions of US citizens who have been victims of illegal alien crimes! We have enough crime in the US without importing more. If we enforced the border, these millions of crimes would be greatly reduced. Why would that be a bad thing? The open borders policy is costing lives, billions of dollars and is overburdening already strained public services. The evidence is overwhelming. Pointing to 1 study done in Chicago in a few neighborhoods and trying to apply that to the entire nation is a stretch. We have every right to know who is coming to this country and who we want here and who we don't. Virtually every nation on earth enforces border security including the nations where these people come from!! Mexico penalizes illegal immigrants very severely. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 15, 2007) | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 276 Registered: 03-2006 |
Barnes - Another Bush Rant eh? Your article is from a site with the following graphic on its home page. Very objective.  | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2800 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: Instead of returning their illegal Honduran aliens back south, the Mexicans often release them to the north. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 278 Registered: 03-2006 |
Livernoisyard - Well, sure why not dump them on us, we are dumb enough to let them in. Meanwhile the president of Mexico blames us for illegal immigration and liberals in this country call anyone who supports enforcing the law a racist. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 794 Registered: 08-2006 |
"Instead of returning their illegal Honduran aliens back south, the Mexicans often release them to the north." Actually a large cause of border crossing is due to all the US companies with factories in Mexican border towns. People go north seeking work at the Mequilidora's, when they are refused, hey the US border is conveniently right there. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3215 Registered: 10-2003 |
PG-your news source is objective? Because the Washington Times is published by the Messiah, right? (time for a bi-monthly picture of the WT Publisher, aka, king of kings, most holy father, messiah, aka, S. Y. Moon) Gimme a break. And try to get out more, you might actually learn something by experiencing the world, instead of telling us how dangerous it is from your detroit suburb.  | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3216 Registered: 10-2003 |
PG-your news source is objective? Because the Washington Times is published by the Messiah, right? (time for a bi-monthly picture of the WT Publisher, aka, king of kings, most holy father, messiah, aka, S. Y. Moon) Gimme a break. And try to get out more, you might actually learn something by experiencing the world, instead of telling us how dangerous it is from your detroit suburb. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 886 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: No you're a racist because you say things like: People that are not American are generally illiterate, criminals, and a drain on public services. Maybe you're just xenophobic. Using distorted statistics from bias sources to further your hate on a specific group of people? Yep, that's why you're a racist. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 280 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cheddar_bob - I never said anything of the kind, in fact I have said that plenty of Americans are illiterate, criminals and a drain on public services as well, especially in Detroit. This is not my biased assumptions, this is statistical fact. I just don't feel it helps matters to be importing MORE illiterate, possibly criminal people, we have a good supply as it is. The citizens that are in poverty then have to compete with these new arrivals, so if you are truly concerned about folks on the lower income scale, you would be FOR immigration enforcement. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 15, 2007) | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 887 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Yes, we know you don't understand because your ignorance of the immigration issue is littered throughout this thread. What is it going to take for you to realize that illegal immigrants (a) are not eligible for public assistance and (b) would not voluntarily give the government their names and addresses for assistance. A lot of illegal immigrants pay money in social security, fica, state and local taxes, but do not get that money back after April 15 like we do (see -b- further up). Have you considered all of that money being paid into the system but not drawn out? | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 888 Registered: 10-2003 |
PG, Yes you did say that. Right here.... quote: I'll break it down.... quote:Are all immigrants illiterate? Most? If you want to make this assumption fine, but don't cry about being called a racist or a bigot. And they may be poor when they get here, but isn't that why they come here? To get out of poverty? quote:We've given several reason why the incarceration number are what they are, but you're ignoring the statistics that show decreases in crime in Latino communities and you're ignoring us who say we live, work, and play with immigrants who are for the most part exemplary human beings. Certainly, as a group, they are better people than your bigot ass. quote: Am I supposed to take your word for it (see my post further up #887)? quote: So everybody should be/act like you? Or like white people? How should people be/act, exactly? You may say "destroying the fabric of this nation", others may say "multi-cultural progress". Hey, if you only want to be around people who look/think/talk like you, that's cool. It didn't work out so well for Hitler, but maybe you've got a different spin to it. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 281 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cheddar_bob - Again I never said "People that are not American are generally illiterate, criminals, and a drain on public services." I said that about the illegals who are coming to this country, big difference. All immigrants are not illiterate, but most illegal immigrants are. You seemed to be confused about the difference between LEGAL and ILLEGAL immigration. I was referring to illegals. Yeah, if only all Americans were like these "undocumented workers," this nation would be a third world slum just like Mexico. I have proven that illegals are committing millions of crimes, that is not meant to impugn those who work hard and obey the law, although they are breaking our immigration laws. I pay 10's of thousands of dollars in taxes every year to support my existence, they do not. Many work under the table and those who get regular payroll pay little or no tax, just check the tax tables for that one. Pretty much nobody making 20 grand or less pays anything. Therefore, we are subsidizing their use of public services. Not a hard concept to fathom. There has never been an example of a multi-culturist nation in history that survived. The Romans learned that in a very brutal way. These people are demanding "rights" that they are not entitled to because they are not citizens. There are many countries in the world whose people are even worse off than those in Mexico, by your logic, we should let the 100's of millions of them into the country as well. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 15, 2007) | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 642 Registered: 11-2003 |
The big cost associated with Illegal aliens is from the children they give birth to while in the states. They become American citizens at birth and entitled to all the goodies, including schooling. Also Illegals put a drain on our medical system. To say that they pay taxes and don't get anything back is just wrong. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 283 Registered: 03-2006 |
From numerous sources and verified by Snopes: Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Texas is a fairly famous institution and for a variety of reasons: 1. John F. Kennedy died there in 1963 2. Lee Harvey Oswald died there shortly after 3. Jack Ruby, who killed Lee Harvey Oswald, died there a few years later by coincidence On the flip side, Parkland is also home to the second busiest maternity ward in the country with almost 16,000 new babies arriving each year. (That's almost 44 per day - every day) A recent patient survey indicated that 70 percent of the women who gave birth at Parkland in the first three months of 2006 were illegal immigrants.' Crikey, that's 11,200 anchor babies born every year just in Dallas. According to the article, the hospital spent $70.7 million delivering 15,938 babies in 2004 but managed to end up with almost $8 million dollars in surplus funding. Medicaid kicked in $34.5 million, Dallas County taxpayers kicked in $31.3 million and the feds tossed in another $9.5 million. The average patient in Parkland's maternity wards is 25 years old, married and giving birth to her second child. She is also an illegal immigrant. By law, pregnant women cannot be denied medical care based on their immigration status or ability to pay. OK, fine. That doesn't mean they should receive better care than everyday, middle-class American citizens. But at Parkland Hospital, they do. Parkland Memorial Hospital has nine prenatal clinics. NINE. The Dallas Morning News article followed a Hispanic woman who was a patient at one of the clinics and pregnant with her third child - her previous two were also born at Parkland. Her first two deliveries were free and the Mexican native was grateful because it would have cost $200 to have them in Mexico. This time, the hospital wants her to pay $10 per visit and $100 for the delivery but she was unsure if she could come up with the money. Not that it matters, the hospital won't turn her away. (I wonder why they even bother asking at this point.) How long has this been going on? What are the long-term effects? Well, another subject of the article was born at Parkland in 1986 shortly after her mother entered the U.S. illegally - now she is having her own child there as well. (That's right, she's technically a U.S. citizen.) These women receive free prenatal care including medication, nutrition, birthing classes and child care classes. They also get freebies such as car seats, bottles, diapers and formula. Most of these things are available to American citizens as well but only for low-income applicants and even then, the red tape involved is almost insurmountable. Because these women are illegal immigrants they do not have to provide any sort of legitimate identification - no proof of income. An American citizen would have to provide a social security number which would reveal their annual income - an illegal immigrant need only claim to be poor and the hospital must take them at their word. My husband is a pilot for the United States Navy (yes, he fought in Iraq) and while the health care is good, we Navy wives don't get any of these perks! Car seats? Diapers? Not so much. So my question is this: Does our public medical care system treat illegal immigrants better than American citizens? Yes it does! As I mentioned, the care I have received is perfectly adequate but it's bare bones, meat and potato medical care - not top of line. Their (the illegals) medical care is free - simply because they are illegal immigrants? Once again, there is no way to verify their income. Parkland Hospital offers indigent care to Dallas County earn less than $40,000 per year. (They also have to prove that they did not refuse health coverage at their current job. Yeah, the 'free' care is not so easy for Americans.) There are about 140 patients who received roughly $4 million dollars for un-reimbursed medical care. As it turns out, they did not qualify for free treatment because they resided outside of Dallas County. So the hospital is going to sue them! Illegals get it all free! But U.S. citizens who live outside of Dallas County get sued! How stupid is this? As if that isn't annoying enough, the illegal immigrant patients are actually complaining about hospital staff not speaking Spanish. In this AP story, the author speaks with a woman who is upset that she had to translate comments from the hospital staff into Spanish for her husband. The doctor was trying to explain the situation to the family and the mother was forced to translate for her husband who only spoke Spanish. This was apparently a great injustice to her. In an attempt to create a Spanish-speaking staff, Parkland Hospital is now providing incentives in the form of extra pay for applicants who speak Spanish. Additionally, medical students at the University of Texas Southwestern for which Parkland Hospital is the training facility will now have a Spanish language requirement added to their already jammed-packed curriculum. No other school in the country boasts such a ridiculous multi-semester (multicultural) requirement. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 15, 2007) | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 889 Registered: 10-2003 |
PG, I have purposely and specificly identified whether I was talking about illegal immigrants or immigrants in general. If you want to focus on the illegal ones, that's what we'll focus on. You say that "All immigrants are not illiterate, but most illegal immigrants are." I say you're wrong. If you want to supply some evidence, I may be more inclined to believe you. The burden of evidence is on you, it's your statement. About the story on Snopes....What, you're not going to add the rest of the story? You know the things like "70 percent of the women who gave birth at Parkland in the first three months of 2006 were illegal immigrants"? Why didn't you add that the total for all of the previous year was closer to 56%? I know...because it doesn't help your case. About the breakdown of how much government money was used....you act like you paid it all personally. You don't think that some of their tax dollars were used? If the illegals get everything free and don't have to provide any documentation, what is to stop American residents of Dallas from going into the hospital without papers or giving information? Seems to me that if the illegals are getting all of these services for free, we could just go in there, say "No hablo inglés", and get it all for free, too. Why didn't you mention the hospital in the neighboring county that does require legal documents to receive financial aid, even though they are "...uncomfortable about having to make such distinctions."? You didn't mention the words of the president of Parkland Hospital when he said that he doesn't want their doctors and nurses to be immigration agents, but to render care to the people in the community that need it. I can't seem to cut and paste from Snopes, but you seem to be capable. Why don't you cut and paste the rest of the page. You know, the paragraphs from administrators from both hospitals that says many common assumptions about illegals are misconceptions? | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 111 Registered: 10-2006 |
The welfare state and immigration are not compatable. But immigration is not the problem. I remember when middle class whites were leaving NY. the city was pretty much saved by immigrants, most of whom worked their asses off and account for a lot of the new business formation. In fact a much more disturbing trend is that a lot of highly skilled tech workers from places like India are heading back and starting new companies there. We flatter ourselves about being the center of everything. | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 112 Registered: 10-2006 |
Also. NY's dropping crime stats happened at the same time as a surge in legal and illegal immigration. It also has a record low unemployment rate. One ironic twist is that the neighborhood where Archie Bunker was supposed to have lived is mostly asian. A good sequel would have had Archie working for a wealthy Taiwanese business guy. | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 113 Registered: 10-2006 |
OOPs, according to the wikipedia-- Archie lived in Astoria. I always thought it was Flushing. Anyway, both areas are nice places with tons of new and old immigrants. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 286 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cheddar_bob - The article proves my case, none of the facts are disputed. So you think the answer to the problem is we should all deny that we are citizens to get free health care? Great solution. You think that the fact that the rate of illegals having children there is going higher as compared to the prior year is a PLUS for you side? You wanted proof of taxpayers subsidizing illegal immigrants and there it is, in spades. That is one hospital in one Texas town and it is costing 10's of millions per year in taxpayer dollars. A similar problem is happening everywhere there are large numbers of illegals. GAME - SET - MATCH. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 15, 2007) | ||
Futurecity Member Username: Futurecity Post Number: 490 Registered: 05-2005 |
Detroit alone could use an extra one-million immigrants, legal or otherwise. Put up the welcome sign! Roll out the carpet! Bring out the band! We need them now. And we have plenty of room. - Futurecity, grandchild of immigrants | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1862 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote:universal health care, anyone? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 287 Registered: 03-2006 |
Futurecity - We have the highest unemployment rate in the nation, Detroit is at 14%. How is adding a million people to the population going to help matters? What exactly do we "need" them for? Hell, if a million is good, why not 10 million? 40% of the Mexican population would come here if given the choice. Why even have a border at all? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 288 Registered: 03-2006 |
Universal health care, anyone? No thanks. It is clear that government incompetence on every level is rampant. Putting them in charge of your health care can kill you. Ask the Canadians who wait months for treatment how they like it... | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 83 Registered: 02-2007 |
jjab...you are very insightful....I hope you keep posting,,, | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1864 Registered: 06-2004 |
will have to find one, first | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 84 Registered: 02-2007 |
Mackinaw: your comments about Arabs is disrespectful to the many who came to this country in the last century ...Take for example my father who preached love for all man kind, Jewish , Muslim, and Hindu....he followed Jesus's ways...He and his brother served in WWII, in the marines...He loved this country and instilled in my sister and I a strong love of this country and a sense of fundamental human values....He also was always for the small guy. I have the American flag that was presented at his death...He was an ARAB. I believe that when one questions wrongs and speaks out for those who are voiceless, they honor out country,,,,those who do not speak or take part in active change are victims of apathy...we are all brothers that happen to be in a horrible family feud...if hate is the answer how come it hasn't worked yet... | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 52 Registered: 05-2006 |
"Perfect Gentelman" incorrectly writes: "There is no example in history of a nation that has survived multiculturalism." Ah Yes! The mantra of right, conveniently ignoring the facts, truth and history! If there is no example of multiculturalism that has survived, then please explain how Switzerland, one of the richest, and oldest nations on the planet has done so well? If I am not mistaken, there are French, Italian, German, and minority of Romansh living there. And don't give me the ignorant answer that "They are culturally all the same" because that is total BS. Switzerland is indeed a multicultural society, and also has a huge immigrant population to boot. And they were really different 716 years ago when the Swiss Confederacy was founded. History has examples of multi-cultural societies that have failed, (Former Yugoslavia) dissolved peacefully (Czechoslovakia), and thrived: Switzerland, USA. Mono-cultural societies have also fought in wars, mostly civil, some religious: Northern Ireland, North and South Korea, several Latin American countries. Posting such misinformation only proves ignorance, and is completely incorrect. Multi-cultural societies and multi-culturalism have been around way past Greek and Roman times, please ignore the bogus idea that multiculturalism does not work, as it is in reality thinly veiled racism and/or nationalism. The United States, since day 1 has been, and always will be a multi-cultural society. And this includes you, when your ancestors came off the boat from various places like the majority of us (unless of course your ancestors were Native Americans). It is and always has been our strength, get over it. Love it, or Leave it. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 289 Registered: 03-2006 |
Gibran - Mackinaw was supporting you position, his remark was sarcastic in nature. The person you would be more offended by is me. I have no problem with LEGAL, ORDERLY immigration. I support the rule of law. Consider the Oath of Citizenship: "I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion." I guess I am questioning that certain "migrants" who are coming here NOW could really honestly make that oath. 60% of Mexicans believe the American Southwest was stolen from them. They retain their Mexican citizenship when they come here. Would the thousands of Muslims who marched in support of Hezbollah in Dearborn, a group who has killed Americans and is calling for the destruction of the Jewish state be willing to make this pledge? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 290 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cinderpath - Switzerland?? This is your shining example of multiculturalism? The place that refused to stand up to Hitler and allowed the Nazi's to deposit the possessions and money they stole from the Jews that they slaughtered? That Switzerland? | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 891 Registered: 10-2003 |
No, I don't think the rate of illegals having children is going up. I think they took one small slice of time (3 months) to throw out a number. It's a typical right-wing tactic to identify a small piece of the overall spectrum and use that as a catch-all. So 70% of the babies born in that hospital, in the first 3 months of 2006 were to illegal mothers. What about the following 3 months? Did it go down? Up? If you take a little broader spectrum (the whole previous year), you get a number that's a little closer to the truth. So one hospital in a border state got government funding and also happened to treat illegal expectant mothers. I hardly think that justifies a winning argument. Again, illegals pay taxes, too. You didn't pay the whole shortfall yourself. Also, you've provided bias information on one hospital. You still haven't given the rest of the information provided by snopes and administrators of the hospitals. You've done nothing to prove your contention that illegal immigrants are illiterate. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 167 Registered: 11-2006 |
Is it really this complicated? Securely allow noncitizens to visit, work, whatever. Those that choose to pursue more permanent status, by all means do so...via the appropriate and legal channels. A noble pursuit that they should be commended for. Once succesful, they are citizens, as much as anyone else. Prior to, or in the absence of attaining citizenship, they are not citizens and should not be afforded the rights and benefits associated with it, neither should they pay for it. Our country can sustain a certain volume of immigrants and visitors. Allocate permission at that rate, if supply outstrips demand, the applicants need to cue up in line and wait. What is all of this other stuff about? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 291 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cheddar_bob - It was not a right-wing article, it was reported everywhere as fact, all over the mainstream press. The problem there has been happening for years, 56% one month 70% the following month, it is a HUGE problem, only you deny that. We are ALL PAYING FOR IT and so will our children. The more we do that the more will come here for free services! It is really quite simple. I almost don't blame the Mexicans, they are offered free care and they take it. At a time when 60% of our federal budget is going to entitlement programs and yet these programs are STILL headed for financial collapse, it doesn't seem like a great time to be expanding them to include millions of people who are not our citizens. This may be surprising to you, but the government we support with the taxes we pay was designed to serve THIS COUNTRY and its CITIZENS. We are not here to be a buffer nation for every failed 3rd world country. To do so will eventually lead to ruin. Of course we have a rich history of people coming here from all over which is great. But we cannot absorb the numbers we are seeing now in such a short time period, it is unprecedented. This is not a vast, undiscovered frontier that has not been settled. Neither is it the beginning of the Industrial Revolution when hard-working, lower skilled workers were needed by the thousands. We are LOSING manufacturing jobs. Of course the presence of more labor lowers wages. It is the most basic economic principle, if you increase the supply of something, in this case workers, prices (the wages they are paid) goes down. You seem to be promoting the notion of a permanent underclass that will be exploited by unscrupulous business owners. If we grant them all amnesty, the advantage to hiring them will be removed because they will then have to be paid the prevailing wage. More illegals will come in to replace the newly "legitimized" migrants. Most illegals make too little money to pay taxes, and many are getting paid under the table. In regard to what the hospital administrators said, it doesn't matter. They don't care about illegal immigration, good for them! (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 15, 2007) | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 53 Registered: 05-2006 |
PG provides this lame retort: "Switzerland?? This is your shining example of multiculturalism? The place that refused to stand up to Hitler and allowed the Nazi's to deposit the possessions and money they stole from the Jews that they slaughtered? That Switzerland?" Please, This is the best you can come up with? You take an incident that has absolutely zilch to do with whether or not a multicultural society can work or not, and obscure it over a 700 year history. Nice lame attempt on a diversion, but it is not going to work. And correct me if I am wrong, was Hitle'rs goals indeed trying to make a mono-cultural/ethnic society, that was indeed defeated by several multicultural countries? I know in your view of things this is probably a footnote in history, but for many of us it was perhaps the single largest attempt in history to eliminate multiculturalism, which fortunately did not prevail, and was by all accounts a colossal failure. Thanks for proving my point completely! Oh- yes, there are other small multi-cultural countries like the USA, Canada, Australia......... You know what they say PG, when your in a hole, stop digging.................. :-) | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 892 Registered: 10-2003 |
Of course it doesn't matter what the administrators said. Of the hospital that you cited as an example. You know, the administrators, the people that actually work there and live amongst immigrants. It doesn't matter because it is damning to your bigotry. Now your opinion, now that's something that matters. Someone that doesn't talk, speak, live with immigrants, someone who has no idea what they go through or their hardships, I should favor your opinion. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1866 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote:of those who were foreign born, almost 80% already have | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2803 Registered: 10-2004 |
I heard on the radio today that the German government renounced Hitler's citizenship recently. Why didn't they do that around 1930 or so and send him back to Austria (or was that Livonia)? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 292 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cinderpath - No, Hitler was destroyed by several different, separate countries that all had there own cultures, languages and customs. Assimilation is what is needed. That is why the US is known as the "melting pot." We are no longer melting together as well as we used to. As for the Swiss, here is their policy on immigration: Switzerland has the toughest naturalization rules in Europe. If you want to become Swiss you must live in the country legally for at least 12 years—and pay taxes, and have no criminal record—before you can apply for citizenship. It still does not mean that your wish will be granted, however, and the fact that you were born in Zurich or Lugano does not make any difference. There are no "amnesties" and illegals are deported if caught. Even if an applicant satisfies all other conditions, the local community in which he resides has the final say: it can interview the applicant and hold a public vote before naturalization is approved. If rejected he can apply again, but only after ten years. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 16, 2007) | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 168 Registered: 11-2006 |
When I visit another country, I understand that I have no right to any of the social services (whatever they may be) of that country. If I need medical attention, I have to pay for it. If I fall on hard times, there is no expectation that the host country and its' taxpaying citizens will take care of me or help me out. I resort to whatever resources available to me (family friends, loans, or nothing) until I can return home to my own country where I am a citizen and have access to governmental or community assistance (if any is available). Any system that teaches, or practices otherwise is anti individual, and enables the very dependance that is the ruin of Liberty and Freedom. This is why it is so important...it is not cheap labor, but the fabric of our free society that is at stake. Hearing "conservatives" compromise on this principle is down right depressing. Who amongst our elected representatives understands this guiding principle and has the courage to defend it? This is not the kind of governance I was lead to believe would be delivered by the representatives that I voted for (with the "I" as symbollic of "the american voter"). | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 116 Registered: 10-2006 |
I only hope we can keep on attracting talented immigrants. Places like Pittsburgh which is home to great tech schools like CMU is seeing a lot of these students going right back home or to Canada. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 293 Registered: 03-2006 |
Lilpup - If they made that pledge and still support a sworn enemy of this nation, then they lied. Cheddar_bob - Should we put the issues of immigration and national security in the hands of hospital administrators? I am sure I could find a few hospital administrators that are against illegal immigration too, what about them? | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 294 Registered: 03-2006 |
Nyburgher - Many of the scientists who are working on nuclear weapons in Iran were educated here too. I am sure they are very talented indeed! | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1867 Registered: 06-2004 |
PG, they are peacefully exercising their freedom of speech. They have every right, as American citizens, to do so. (Message edited by lilpup on March 16, 2007) | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 117 Registered: 10-2006 |
"Any system that teaches, or practices otherwise is anti individual, and enables the very dependance that is the ruin of Liberty and Freedom. This is why it is so important...it is not cheap labor, but the fabric of our free society that is at stake." That's the core problem. Immigration is not compatable with the welfare state. One or the other has to give. America has chosen slavery and we are going to get it. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 295 Registered: 03-2006 |
Lilpup - Yes, they are exercising free speech. Speech in support of a group that is calling for our destruction. Some people who share these beliefs, however are not as peaceful, as we found out on 9/11. Do you think it is a good idea to allow people to come here that want us dead? (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 16, 2007) | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 118 Registered: 10-2006 |
I doubt that in a few years that gold standard IIT grads will be comming to the US much. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I ndian_Institutes_of_Technology | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1868 Registered: 06-2004 |
PG, the only person from Dearborn I've ever had threaten me was a one generation removed Tennessee redneck. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 169 Registered: 11-2006 |
America, as I see it, is not compatible with the welfare state....but that is another issue. However, unless I misintepret you, stating that a country with any social services (what I think you mean by "welfare state") cannot allow immigration, is not accurate. While I disagree with the escalation of social services to the degree that we now see them (an explosion of entitlements), that doesn't mean that a government cannot offer some basic social services for its' citizens that fund the government in the first place. Furthermore, the existance of these services (for those who paid for them) does not exclude said government from allowing immigration just because it does not offer those services to visitors. Therefore, immigration, done properly, should be able to coexist with our system of government. "Slavery"?? absolutely not...not offering unpaid for services to visitors who choose to visit and work FOR PAY, (otherwise they wouldn't very well be coming here, would they?) is not slavery. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 296 Registered: 03-2006 |
Quote: "PG, the only person from Dearborn I've ever had threaten me was a one generation removed Tennessee redneck." Well, based on that one incident we should open up the borders, get rid of all of the "rednecks" and we will all be safe. | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 54 Registered: 05-2006 |
"No, Hitler was destroyed by several different, separate countries that all had there own cultures, languages and customs." -Really- I could have sworn, the Soviet Union, Yugoslavia, the USA, Belgium, England, and a few others all indeed have ethnic minorities and are in fact multi-cultural, and in many cases multi-lingual, but hey in your world your right. "Assimilation is what is needed. That is why the US is known as the "melting pot." We are no longer melting together as well as we used to." -Maybe I am wrong but, again assimilation, has a different meaning than "melting together", like a "melting pot" does, which has been successful, which infers a blending of cultures. (Where else do people celebrate Halloween, Christmas, St Patties Day, Chanukah and a host of other holidays? Which have enriched our country) Assimilation- here we go with the National Socialism stuff that you seem to like. Again, assimilation, tends to result in various levels of resistance, often with ugly results. (Again read your history books;neat stuff) "Switzerland has the toughest naturalization rules in Europe." -This is of no point to the discussion what so ever- it still does not take away from the fact that Switzerland, always was and has been a successful multicultural country. They even have four official languages- and they are surviving just fine. I know, it's tough to admit, let alone concede the fact that yes, multicultural/ethinic country's have indeed been successful and thrived, and in some cases mono-cultural/ethinc country's have also been failures. (I listed a bunch) Here is something, try thinking out of the box: A county's success is probably better determined by economic factors and not just racial and cultural factors. I know you and many on this list would like to believe this country is falling apart, and in its last days, and the "Rapture" is just around the corner, and hey what better way than to blame failure on those who are at the bottom of the socioeconomic barrel, but America is simply dealing with growing pains, and it will still survive and thrive, and people from other cultures will continue to come here just like your and my ancestors did. Sleep tight! | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 170 Registered: 11-2006 |
Free speech is a near political and moral absolute by virtue of the constitution (for citizens). Freedom of expression, so long as it does not infringe on someone elses rights (ie yelling fire in a crowded room) is not the same as freedom of action. This is a common excuse used by people when invoking the first amendment. Also, expressing your opinion has consequences, and freedom of expression does not protect you from that. If I say I hate my wife.....you better believe there will be consequences, and only a fool ignores that, at his/her own peril. Skin heads, the KKK, whatever...can express themselves, and, of course, expect to have to accept the consequences, as much as they want. You don't have to agree with them, and you are free to express yourself in opposition. You may even be able to take action (within the law) based on what is expressed. Noncitizens are visiting at our discretion, and one consequence of expressing themselves may be that we tell them to leave (deport them). Citizens, however, fall under the protection of their (and your) constitution (which, again, doesn't include getting a pass on the consequences of your expression). | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 119 Registered: 10-2006 |
I was referring to tax slavery. The core problem is the welfare and especially things like open ended healthcare benefits being laid out there. No country can afford that. Benefits like these would naturally start to attract a different type of immigrant from the historic norm. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 297 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cinderpath - So you are OK with the US adopting the same immigration policy of your paradise, Switzerland? Great with me. Here is their ethnic breakdown: German 65% French 18% Italian 10% Romansh 1% Other 6% So they are 93% Western European, and over 90% are Christians, with an even split between Catholic and Protestant. Is that "multiculturalism?" No. Quote from Wikipedia: "Switzerland has traditionally had a very low rate and reputation for crime, yet many Swiss are concerned the crime rates have been slightly increasing with the large influxes of immigrants." In the USA I don't see people "blending" as you describe, they are holding on to their language, their allegiance to their native country and their customs in many cases. The reason for this is the close proximity to their former nation (Mexico) and to the historical claim they make on the American Southwest. Europeans crossed an ocean to come here, there was no going back and forth. They had to fit in or they would not thrive. Totally different. | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1869 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote: dare ya to go call a Frenchman a German (those are all different cultures) | ||
Cinderpath Member Username: Cinderpath Post Number: 56 Registered: 05-2006 |
So they are 93% Western European, and over 90% are Christians, with an even split between Catholic and Protestant. Is that "multiculturalism?" No. Last time I checked- there was not a cultural group known as "Western European". It seems Catholics and Protestants have had a troubled past in Northern Ireland too- Quote from Wikipedia: "Switzerland has traditionally had a very low rate and reputation for crime, yet many Swiss are concerned the crime rates have been slightly increasing with the large influxes of immigrants." The key word: "Slightly increasing", even with "the large influxes of immigrants." crime there is still a fraction of what it is in most countries and the USA. -Again you are trying to distract from your original incorrect statement "There is no example in history of a nation that has survived multiculturalism." In the USA I don't see people "blending" as you describe, they are holding on to their language, their allegiance to their native country and their customs in many cases. This has historically always been the case, people hold onto their culture for generations. Read all of my last post. Why do you think American English differs so much from British English. We use a lot more words from other languages and cultures. Where did they come from? I still get a whiff of good old, thinly-vailed racism and disguised in your post against non-christian/European immigrants. Don't feel bad. I am sure certain Native Americans felt the same way about your ancestors too. They however had a real reason to be afraid, and it was not because of the guy coming here picking tomatoes. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 298 Registered: 03-2006 |
Lilpup - No, they are more similar than different actually. Just as those of Western European culture here are all now considered white, non-minority Caucasians, they are all Swiss. They have their different languages, but there is also a German variant that most of them speak. Many of them see the language issue as a minus, not a plus by the way. True multiculturalism would be a mixture of Asians, Indians, Europeans, Middle Eastern, South American, African and so on. In this case you have a diversity of not only language, but religion, vastly different customs and world view. This is far more challenging. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 16, 2007) | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 299 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cinderpath - You never heard of Western Europe? That happens to be where the majority of Americans came from. Although now they are known as "whites." | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 300 Registered: 03-2006 |
Quote: "I still get a whiff of good old, thinly-vailed racism and disguised in your post against non-christian/European immigrants." There you go, you lumped us all together yourself! | ||
Lilpup Member Username: Lilpup Post Number: 1871 Registered: 06-2004 |
quote:they *are* different, they have different languages, different customs, different religions (Catholic and Protestant *are not* the same) - they do have some things in common, but they are *not* the same - one does not determine culture solely by the color of one's skin | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 795 Registered: 08-2006 |
I wonder if Chedder_Bob would like to have his boss do the right and open up hiring for Immigrants, legal or other wise that wish to escape the devastating poverty of thier undeveloped nations? I'm sure that boss could replace bob with 3 people happy to do his job for much less then what he pays bob. What's that? Have a degree or a marketable skill which insulates you from such underhandedness? Well how good for you! And how nice of you to not give a crap about native born peons lesser then you who don't have your superior intelligence. But, I'm sure there is a couple someones' fresh out of college in New Delhi or Beijing that are up to the task. Immigration laws? who needs 'em now?!? I agree with PG we can welcome in as many huddled masses as we want, so long as there are self sustainable jobs with medical benefits waiting for them. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 796 Registered: 08-2006 |
Open borders and lax immigration laws would be an employer's dream. All the boss of 2015 will have to do is go to the world wide web and update his company's career page with open jobs like "Software Engineer", "Architect" "Sales Rep" or "Mold technician" and people from around the world will start bidding on that job. With our standard of high living, how many US people do you think will win those bids? Is this what you supposed "leftists" really want? (Message edited by cambrian on March 16, 2007) | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3220 Registered: 10-2003 |
Too bad that so many jobs have left, while we're arguing about people coming. I don't know about the rest, but I'd just like to see more people allowed from the Americas. I think that eventually we may see a "community of the Americas" eventually anyway.(at least, if Mexico ever figures out how to collect taxes and pay their public servants enough to discourage bribery)...there are increasing numbers of retired Americans living in Mexico and Central America, where there SS checks go a bit further. If this idea seems absurd, consider how many wars were fought between Germany and France; who would have imagined 50 years ago that there would be a European Community. Have fun arguing guys, but consider one thing. If multiculturalism doesn't work, why do so many Americans read the Washington Times, published by an elderly Korean immigrant who thinks he's the messiah and looks like he just walked out of one of those Imperial Margarine Ads from the 70's...  | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 301 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cambrian - You are dead on with your remarks. You will notice that the leftists on this board have no answer to that question. There are 100's of millions of poor people worldwide that would be more than happy to take ALL of our jobs for less pay. Is that what we should do, after our forefathers fought and died to create a standard of living that is the envy of the world? Ask the construction workers and skilled tradesman who have lost their jobs to legal and illegal immigrants here and in Europe what there feelings are. Ask the people who live in certain areas of France, where their new visitors are rioting in the streets because they reject European values and have no desire to assimilate. They are attacking the very society that is supporting them with government benefits. The irony is that many former ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS want the border controlled as well! They know they will have to compete for work with the new influx of illegals that follow them! Why limit it to Mexico, we could get millions of cheap workers from Indonesia, Pakistan, any number of third world nations. So the question stands. SHOULD WE LET THEM ALL IN?? If you say no, then you are in agreement with the right side, the only difference is the AMOUNT of people to let in. If you say yes, then you are suicidal. This thread proved beautifully why leftists should never be in a position of authority. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 16, 2007) | ||
Nyburgher Member Username: Nyburgher Post Number: 121 Registered: 10-2006 |
Cambrian, those are to a large extent the facts today. And to be honest as a human being I am ok with that. All people have the right to freedom and happiness anywhere in the world. If they can compete for the job and do it they have the right to it. You have built in the assumption that somehow god determined that the world would have a certain number of jobs and we all just fight for them. Many of these immigrants are creating new jobs and starting new businesses. If your ideas are accurate the how do you explain the fact that NY, which has experienced huge recent immigration, now has one of the lowest unemployment rates it has ever had? http://www.newyorkbusiness.com /apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200 661116013 | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 797 Registered: 08-2006 |
"Many of these immigrants are creating new jobs and starting new businesses." One would presume their success is after they have went through the correct channels and became citizens. Good for them and godspeed. I never advocated shutting the doors completely. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 302 Registered: 03-2006 |
Nyburgher - If what you say is true then why do we have unemployment in Michigan? If you say that we need more low-wage workers here to prosper then you are arguing an anti-union position which is fine. I for one kinda need good money to pay my bills and house my children so pardon me if I don't join you in the chorus of self-sacrifice for the benefit of the downtrodden the world over. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 16, 2007) | ||
Oladub Member Username: Oladub Post Number: 20 Registered: 08-2006 |
Much of this discussion has been about hidden racism, hard working immigrants, and economic viability. Adding another 1.4 million people annually, legal or otherwise, creates new demands for housing among other things. That is good for the economy. It is especially good for businesses that can get rid of union workers. The meat packing industry used to have union plants. Their union workers have been replaced with hard working immigrants from around the world who work for $10/hr. and few benefits. Michigan construction outfits can phone employment agencies in Texas for “carpenters”. Profitable indeed but not so good for the families of union workers and the (former?) middle class. There is not much in this discussion about the significance of the actual numbers. “Unless the present immigration trends are significantly reduced, America could add more people in the next sixty years than in the preceding four centuries. Demographers Ahlburg and Vaupel sharply criticize the Census Bureau for its low fertility and immigration assumptions and conclude that under more realistic assumptions the United States will have a population of 811 million by 2080." http://www.mnforsustain.org/im mg_us_pop_and_immg_part1_dalei den_j.htm | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2565 Registered: 02-2005 |
GIBRAN: "Mackinaw: your comments about Arabs is disrespectful to the many who came to this country in the last century" No, they aren't!!! I was quoting the nativists. I'm in favor of immigration and respect all immigrants...read my post in context before you make such a declaration. I know you're newer here so you don't know my views, but you should air on the side of caution and perhaps consider that I was being sarcastic, or pick up on the quote markers, which denote that that was NOT my view. | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5024 Registered: 11-2003 |
Comments about welfare babies in Parkland Hospital in Dallas are punitive and hostile to mothers and babies. Some of those children will grow up to be doctors, lawyers, and bus drivers. We educate people in this country, and our future depends on native-born children. jjaba asks you to read the poetry on the base of the Statue of Liberty. Learn about Czarist pogroms. Google that word and you'll see jjaba in there. His parents washed up at Ellis Island, tired and poor, tempist tossed in 1913. They had no papers, only a couple of suitcases and some dreams. Nobody else on the SS Pretoria from Hamburg had papers either. Immigration named us too. People don't come to USA because they are kings and land barons in the Old Country. They come here seeking freedom and prosperity. Unless each woman of child bearing age in USA has 2.1 children, you need immigration. You wanna be like Japan, xenophobic and dying? (They just closed 2,000 schools. They don't take in anybody.) We are a rich country. We can provide health care, jobs, quality education, and an old beater or a bus pass. Please get off your high horse about "you're the last one to be let in." We are all immigrants and Detroit is a United Nations community since 1703 when the first Jew worte a check for Antoine dela Mothe Cadillac. jjaba, Westside Torah Bukkor. | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 798 Registered: 08-2006 |
"We are a rich country. We can provide health care, jobs, quality education, and an old beater or a bus pass" I've yet to see everyone that all ready lives here get these things; in thier entiretity anyways. | ||
Rjk Member Username: Rjk Post Number: 643 Registered: 11-2003 |
What should we call people who go through the legal process to enter this country and become American citizens? Idiots? Suckers? I don't even know why we have the term "Illegal immigrants." To a lot of people illegal immigrants and immigrants are the same thing. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 303 Registered: 03-2006 |
Jjaba - How is stating facts hostile? We are a debtor nation that is surviving on borrowed money. Our federal deficit, trade deficits and consumer credit is at an all time high. Your analysis of the immigration from history unfortunately is not relevant to the current situation we face. We have never absorbed this many people in such a short period. We have a limited number of schools, hospitals and infrastructure. Building more will cost billions. Low wage immigrant workers will not be paying enough in taxes to pay for all of this. Here is some more food for thought: Immigration's Dire Effect On The Environment http://www.commondreams.org/views/061500-104.htm This is not from a so-called "right wing" web site. If these people are going to become lawyers, then someone else will have to pay to educate them.  | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 304 Registered: 03-2006 |
Jjaba - Can you tell me where I can get my "old beater?" I need another car for my daughter, what government agency should I contact? I am also tired of paying my medical insurance premium, where do I go to get the "free" health care you describe? | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2806 Registered: 10-2004 |
PG, do you really want to ask to find a "beater" dealer two thousand miles away? Look for one closer because the S&H (time and gas) would surely kill the deal. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 305 Registered: 03-2006 |
Note to liberals: There is nothing stopping you from putting your words into action today. There are hundreds of organizations set up to help illegal immigrants. Are you contributing funds to them? Here is one: http://www.nclr.org/ The IRS will also accept extra tax money to pay for all of these programs you love so much. It seems like it is always easy to advocate doing all of these wonderful things, as long as it doesn't cost YOU anything or affect YOUR life. Maybe you could give YOUR job to a hard-working immigrant. I am sure he will kick back enough to you to feed and house your kids. The construction workers who used to make enough to sustain THEIR households that have been replaced by illegal immigrants aren't finding it too easy though. The Hurricane Katrina refugees who were refused jobs to rebuild their own community in favor of illegals don't think it is so great either. Then again, maybe the Mexican government can provide them with government benefits. I am finding it hard reconciling the pro-labor position of liberals while at the same time advocating importing slave labor from other countries which the high paid union worker will not be able to compete with? Can one of you explain that? (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 16, 2007) | ||
Cambrian Member Username: Cambrian Post Number: 799 Registered: 08-2006 |
"I am finding it hard reconciling the pro-labor position of liberals while at the same time advocating importing slave labor from other countries which the high paid union worker will not be able to compete with? Can one of you explain that? " The circles do overlap once in awhile. I am a pro union liberal, nice to meet ya! Well maybe more of a centrist. I thought I was a leftie until I happened upon this thread. Seems as though my political base has no common sense on this matter. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 306 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cambrian - Nice to meet you too! Many so-called "Republicans" don't have any common sense either so I know what you mean. I don't think either party is serving their constituents at the moment... | ||
Gibran Member Username: Gibran Post Number: 87 Registered: 02-2007 |
mackinaw: my sincere apology...I see ....my sensitivity level was up....I have seen so much generalization....again thanks for understanding... | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5025 Registered: 11-2003 |
There are plenty of taxes collected. jjaba would posit that the taxes need to be re-directed away from war and defense contractors, to us. Share the wealth with the people who need it. Anybody with anything on the ball made a killing in construction after Katrina. 20% of New Orleans suddenly is Hispanic, post-Katrina. The people came from all over the place to fucking work. I know a guy who bought a few porta-potties and has made out really well. Shitty job, but your waste is his bread and butter. Everybody has a neighbor, a buddy, a relative with a beater. If you can't find one in your block or at your bar, you are so social isolated, you must live in a mental hospital. All of us are subsidized to many extents. Nobody pays full freight for anything. Never did, never will. If you feel the drag on finances, get some help to change it. Blaming immigrants for your personal woes simply means you haven't figured out to live here. Some hold glasses half-empty, other hold the same glass half-full. What's in your cup of tea? jjaba, Westside Bar Mitzvah Bukkor, Detroit son of immigrants. | ||
Barnesfoto Member Username: Barnesfoto Post Number: 3223 Registered: 10-2003 |
ola said" "The meat packing industry used to have union plants. Their union workers have been replaced with hard working immigrants from around the world who work for $10/hr. and few benefits". That's a valid point, and perhaps Ola has read Schlosser's "Fast Food Nation, and "Reefer Madness" which talks about the underground economy in the US. Nobody wants slaves to be imported, Cambrian, But if people could pay a fine for violating their visa status, and a pay a fee for guest worker status or eventual citizenship, they might be less likely to work in such conditions. It's amazing that more of the anti-brown hysterics- as well as the folks who are not racist, but just don't like illegal immigration-never think about who is picking most of the crops and cutting most of the steaks that you eat. A sure way to battle illegal immigration would be to raise your own food, or buy from small family farms now, wouldn't it? As long as you keep putting the fruits of illegal immigrant labor into your pie holes, you're all really just contributing to part of the problem that you denounce. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 307 Registered: 03-2006 |
Jjaba - I think national defense these days is a pretty important issue so I don't think it is a good time to start cutting back. You are clearly a socialist so I guess you think that the government knows best how to distribute resources and funds amongst us. I don't agree. Your anecdote about Katrina is interesting, but the overall picture is not great. Local residents, mostly minorities, were passed over in favor of non-citizens. It seems you feel that was a good thing. I don't have any relatives with a "beater" that is available for use, nor does anyone else I know. I also don't know of anyone who is in a mental hospital. I guess I didn't realize there were all these people with spare cars sitting around who are willing to lend them out. Some of us are paying more than their full freight, but it is obvious that the bill for all of this deficit spending will eventually lead to ruin. I don't blame anyone else for my personal woes, unlike all of you leftists on this board who blame Bush, Republicans and Suburbanites for all of yours. I care about America first, which I guess makes me a racist in your view. Barnes, I would be more than happy to pay another 10 cents for a head of lettuce to know that we had a legal, orderly system of immigration. YOU are the one that is advocating exploitation of these people. | ||
Mackinaw Member Username: Mackinaw Post Number: 2566 Registered: 02-2005 |
It's okay, Gibran. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2808 Registered: 10-2004 |
How could a prof with a Ph.D. in social work believe that having open borders in a socialist welfare state could coexist for very long without financial disasters, including high unemployment, occurring? Visualize a small pond where the growing number of its fish outstrip the pond of its available oxygen and nutrients and see what happens. Where do you think the term belly up came from? | ||
Jjaba Member Username: Jjaba Post Number: 5028 Registered: 11-2003 |
China has a land mass the size of USA. They are making do with 1.2 Billion people. In USA, we have about 300 million. Ok, Australia is also the same size, has 20 million. Canada is even bigger than USA, has maybe 35 million. Like them, we ARE quite vacant. We have swiss cheese borders up against third world poverty to our South. But the borders are not only a line in the Southern sand. People sneak in here by land, sea, and air from everytwhere, including legally but then over-stay their welcome. Since the Pilgrims, people have been sneaking in here. They were sneaking in here before Socialism was invented. Call jjaba anything you want, but he would welcome a jolt of 50,000 green, blue, or pink people if they'd live in Detroit. White folks sure as hell don't want to live anywhere near the motherland. All's they know is sprawl. Since jjaba was outed as a profesor, he tells you a little secret. Cut welfare benefits and you'll see civil unrest go through the roof. You can't be that ignorant, eh. jjaba, proud American. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 308 Registered: 03-2006 |
Dr. Jjaba - The quality of life in China sucks, I don't think they are a model for anything. Just adding 50 thousand random people is not going to solve anything in Detroit. the city is barely able to provide the minimum services for those who are there now. There are also no jobs for these people. If there were, the unemployment rate wouldn't be 14% and there wouldn't be thousands on welfare, who you imply would riot if it were cut off. Your arguments have no basis in logic or economic reality. People are LEAVING because of a lack of opportunity. You say we have plenty of land and are a vacant country, then you bitch about sprawl. As a professor I suppose that means that you are in the academic community. If that is the case, I just want to say there is no class of people on earth more pussified, pretentious, impractical and overpaid than college professors. Speaking of ignorant, you misspelled professor professor. By the way, constantly referring to yourself in the third person is considered self-indulgent and irritating in normal social discourse. I know you are a long-time poster here and that is your style, I just thought I would mention it. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 893 Registered: 10-2003 |
quote: Obviously it would be better than putting it in your hands. If you don't want to print what the hospital administrators said, that's fine. You know what they said. I understand that you don't want to cut the legs off of your own argument. quote: Absolutely you can use them. Of course they won't be the same administrators that work at the very hospital that you used in support of your argument, but whatever. Your arguments have been flimsy and thinly-veiled racism, anyway. If you hate illegal immigrants that much, join the Minutemen. Or grow your own lettuce. Or, just keep bitching about them here. quote:With the attitude toward other human beings you have demonstrated on here, this doesn't surprise me. quote: I'd try Parkland Memorial Hospital in Dallas, Texas. I hear that's the place. You may have to learn a little Spanish, though. quote:How about paying them the same? How about they join the union, too? There's jobs around here that pay the same no matter what color you are. Imagine that! Cambrian, Find any illegal immigrants that receive WIC, or welfare yet? No? When you do, or when you want to admit to your mistake, we can debate. Until then, fuck off. | ||
Cheddar_bob Member Username: Cheddar_bob Post Number: 894 Registered: 10-2003 |
oh yeah, quote: Good. Couldn't happen to a bigger asshole. | ||
Perfectgentleman Member Username: Perfectgentleman Post Number: 309 Registered: 03-2006 |
Cheddar_bob - Here is a quote from a hospital administrator that works with lots of illegals... From Time magazine: "We used to have 250 emergency-room visits a month. Now it's 500. They range from a lone man or woman rescued in the desert, suffering from dehydration or a heart attack, to multiple victims injured when vans jammed with 20 or more illegals crash during high-speed chases. Along the way the hospital is seeing more and more tuberculosis, AIDS and hepatitis. . . . The Copper Queen Hospital's shortfall from treating illegal aliens this year will be about $450,000, bringing the total for the past few years to $1.4 million." Happy Now? If we pay illegals the same as union workers than they wouldn't be hired at all. More illegals would come to replace them to work for a lower wage. (Message edited by perfectgentleman on March 16, 2007) | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 171 Registered: 11-2006 |
I agree that the quality of life in China (and India) is horrible. The standard of living for the poorest in the US would be comparable to, roughly, the 80th percentile in these countries. They are "developing", but have a very long way to go. For this reason, comparing the US and China in the context of "doing fine" with a huge populace (for China, in the example that was given), makes no sense. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2810 Registered: 10-2004 |
The native Europeans have been practicing zero or negative population growth in their countries since WWII in an effort to more readily afford its socialism. Then, a continual influx of millions of immigrants, mostly Muslims via Turkey, with very large families enters their countries and outstrips the financial resources set aside by and for their citizens. Is this what the US needs to endure? | ||
Opus Member Username: Opus Post Number: 36 Registered: 08-2005 |
Lets open the borders and go to a completly free labor market. I think it would be great to walk out each day, cause you couldn't afford a car, and go to a meeting place and hope to be picked to maybe work today. Sounds a lot like the depression. The reason the American economy has grown so much in the past 70 years is because of a stable labor force that is able to borrow funds because of expected future income. How do you take out a mortgage when you could see your income cut in half next week. It was the lower middle working class that built the American economy. We have been dismantling this sector for the past 25 years, and we will eventually pay the price. the concept of allowing open immigration has companies from Tyson to Wal Mart salivating. New consumers for their products and even more slave wage help available. It is a win win for them. If you think this will only affect the working class you are a fool. If you are a banker, who borrows your money, and usually repays it? If you are a lawyer, who is going to be able to afford your rates if 50% of the population is earning $5.00 and hour. The local paper here has taken to hailing the accomplishments of the Chinese as a model for the direction of the NW Ohio, SE Michigan region. Yeah, we should all work for nothing while 5% of the population gets filthy rich. The part they forget about the Chinese is that the state still controls everything and every company could be re-nationalized tomorrow. I am just trying to figure out who they think will buy their newspaper, or their cable services if everyone is making sub par wages. | ||
Ccbatson Member Username: Ccbatson Post Number: 173 Registered: 11-2006 |
Wow...what a good point!!! What is China without us (by us I mean capitalism)? There would be nobody to buy their products if the world were structured exactly like them. Absolutely brilliant and profound point Opus, thank you. | ||
Livernoisyard Member Username: Livernoisyard Post Number: 2812 Registered: 10-2004 |
quote: That's just it. They came before there was a welfare state to embrace them. It was a symbiotic relationship. Others coming here from Honduras or Mexico come here for jobs, perhaps, but they also overuse our social services and schools. Teachers love them coming because it means more jobs--it's always about money in the final analysis. However, their graduation rates are abysmally low. So, there are few cost/benefit fits on that score. Every one of those students will eventually cost the taxpayers about $100 grand in constant 2007 dollars until the time when they stop going to class. And they don't graduate. Whoopy! |
