Discuss Detroit Archives - Beginning January 2007 DetNews Daniel Howes Blog - The Griswold ~ Capitol Park Initial Offering Previous Next
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Ernest_adams
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Username: Ernest_adams

Post Number: 1
Registered: 02-2007
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 12:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

And now for something completely different ...

... in downtown Detroit. First we get million-dollar penthouses selling, on spec, in the refurbing Westin Book-Cadillac on Washington Boulevard. Now comes the initial offering of residences at The Griswold~Capitol Park.

Following an invitation-only bash on March 31, the general public on April 2 gets the chance to plop a 2.5-percent deposit down on one (or more) of 80 units in The Griswold at 1117 Griswold. The developer, Detroit-based Roxbury Group, is billing the 17-story structure (11 stories of parking deck, six of condos) as "the first new-construction condominiums in the Detroit's Central Business District."

Ranging from 800 square-feet to 2,900 square feet, the units boast custom floor plans and such high-end amenities as private terraces, fireplaces, floor-to-ceiling windows, a 24-hour doorman and concierge service, says a press release. One-bedroom units begin at $235,000; two bedrooms at $295,000; and penthouses at $495,000. For info, visit www.thegriswold.com.

When they tell you nothing changes in Detroit, here's one more reason why they couldn't be more wrong.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2239
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 12:40 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

11 stories of parking deck, six of condos



Well, that sounds like more of the same.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 776
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 12:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Danindc:

the alternative was 11 stories of parking deck...the fact that there are 6 decks of condos on top is welcome news
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2240
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 12:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I think it's a shame that so much parking needs to be built for so few condos. Downtown Detroit doesn't exactly have a parking shortage.

At the same time, many on these forums always trot out "the market", and how difficult it is to finance a new project downtown because of the market. Rarely is it discussed, though, how the massive parking requirements negatively impact such endeavors.
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Sharmaal
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Username: Sharmaal

Post Number: 1039
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 12:55 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan,

The parking is for...

1. Hotel Guests
2. The conference rooms in the Hotel
3. The Condos on the Hotel
4. The Condos on the Parking Structure.

Sounds like it's a necessity to me.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 726
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 12:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The parking garage is mostly for the Book Cadillac which is next door
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2241
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 1:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess that makes a bit more sense. Anyone know offhand what the zoning regulations say about parking requirements in the CBD? Spaces per residential unit/hotel room, # of sf per parking spot for office, etc?
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Jt1
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Username: Jt1

Post Number: 8651
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 1:17 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I believe and very well be mistaken that this deck will also have ground floor retail so it won't have a horrible impact on the area from a pedestrain point of view.
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Spiritofdetroit
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Username: Spiritofdetroit

Post Number: 368
Registered: 11-2006
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 1:31 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you are right, there will be ground floor retail, and the entrance to the garage is off a side street
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Atperry
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Username: Atperry

Post Number: 252
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 1:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, its pretty common to have condos be on top of parking garages. Look hard in Chicago and you'll find it, the trick is making the deck look like a regular building, which this structure seems to do fairly well. The truth is that, absent the Book Cadillac, this deck could probably support 7-10 more floors, which is a pretty exciting thought
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Psip
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Username: Psip

Post Number: 1649
Registered: 04-2005
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 1:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Stroh River Place has condos/apts on the top of a parking structure.
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Charlottepaul
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Username: Charlottepaul

Post Number: 716
Registered: 10-2006
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 2:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's my understanding that the CBD doesn't really require dedicated parking for the Book Cadillac. parking is more of a requirement from the bank for a loan. We all know however that buildings in the CBD without dedicated parking have lower rates of occupancy, so parking is market driven as well.
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Detourdetroit
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Username: Detourdetroit

Post Number: 273
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 2:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

you can try to pry this parking out of my cold dead hands!
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Lvnthed
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Username: Lvnthed

Post Number: 69
Registered: 03-2007
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 3:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Now that the Book and Griswold are on track, what are the chances of the Lafayette Bldg. being restored. That would complete a much needed walkable corridor from woodward to Washington
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Gannon
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Username: Gannon

Post Number: 8801
Registered: 12-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 5:01 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've always heard that a developer needs to provide 1.5 parking spaces per condo unit, but have NO idea where that might be codified.

I would await Hysteric or Ndavies, they are surely more up on the answer to this question.


Skulker could answer it, too, but he's apparently busy right now.
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Thejesus
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Username: Thejesus

Post Number: 785
Registered: 06-2006
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 5:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have to say, if my only parking options were those near the RenCen/Comerica Park/Joe Louis, you'd have a hard time selling me a condo at the BC/Griswold...
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Sharmaal
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Username: Sharmaal

Post Number: 1041
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 5:07 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Ditto.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2243
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 5:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

I have to say, if my only parking options were those near the RenCen/Comerica Park/Joe Louis, you'd have a hard time selling me a condo at the BC/Griswold..



Residents are one thing. People visiting, or coming to an event, don't necessarily need on-site parking.
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Billpdx
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Username: Billpdx

Post Number: 36
Registered: 05-2006
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 5:32 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What the hell was all that about, Skulker? I think Danindc posed a good question. Detroit DOES have too many parking garages. In this case, the new garage happens to be a good idea, but jesus... Are you off your meds or something?

Stop being so goddamn shrill. You're hurting my ears.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3715
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 5:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sure thing Dannycakes....

As you well know, guests arriving for a $200 a plate dinner for a charitable organization in their tuxedos and gowns in the dead of winter would like to utilize valet parking and not walk eight blocks and over a freeway to get to their event or even to wait for a cab for that 8 block ride.

My point is that instead of building a garage to accomodate the potential for a lot of traffic generated by the 3,500 event guest parking, the developer of the BC and the city have worked to develop a garage that meets the daily transient needs of the hotel guests, the daily living needs of the condo owners both at the BC and the Griswold as well as a small number [50] of daily transient parkers for the retail and business operations of the hotel [Towel vendors, brides & meeting planners checking out spaces, etc.] The deck includes roughly 100 valet spots for weddings and other events. The major valet over flow will be at nearby decks that are too far for the tux and gown set but close enough for valet parkers to get a good little work out. Many of these arrangements for overflow valet have been brokered by the City to:
A. Avoid over building decks.
B. Utilize decks that get little evening usage.



Here's an idea Dannycakes, ask questions instead of proclaiming when you don't have full information. Its not because anyone here wants to feel like they have all the answers and info, its because we get tired of people leaping to conclusions and making snarky comments about how inept the city is, when the conclusion are flat out wrong.

Do the forum that little favor and we can stop dropping the f bombs and calling you Dannycakes...Dannycakes.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2244
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 5:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

^So in other words, you're working to recreate Southfield, but downtown, because you presume that everyone is lazy. Excellent work.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3716
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 5:58 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

What the hell was all that about, Skulker? I think Danindc posed a good question.



Uh, well he didn't ask a question. He made a statement.

quote:

I think it's a shame that so much parking needs to be built for so few condos. Downtown Detroit doesn't exactly have a parking shortage.



That is a statement of opinion made in an off hand manner with very incomplete information. Which is usually the only type of comment he makes.

He did not ask something like...

"Wow, 11 stories of parking to accommodate 6 stories of condos seems a bit excessive. Is there something I missed? Does anyone have the story here?"


Instead, Dannycakes does his typical shit in leaping to conclusions. Even worse, he is and has posting on other threads where the multiple uses of this deck have been discussed ad nauseum. He continually bashes the City while hiding behind the curtain of his qualifications and opinion of how all others should live just like him.

As a person who didn't flee and is trying to make it better for those with enough balls to stick it out, his type bother me.

And now, I have to question you when you can't seem to tell the difference between a statement and a question.
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 2193
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 6:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

As a person who didn't flee and is trying to make it better for those with enough balls to stick it out, his type bother me.



Is it balls? Or is it a belief that it will be better tomorrow? that you can live a better life here than you could elsewhere? That your professional and personal well-being is better off living and staying in the D than it is to move elsewhere?

Because if it is the latter, I have all the respect in the world for that decision.

But if it is the former, then, Mr. Skulker, my friend, I believe you need to re-assess your criteria.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 3921
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Monday, March 26, 2007 - 6:18 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow 3,500 people simultaneously! But of course, the original B-C was built to house over 1,200 guests simultaneously.

Looking forward to seeing architectural pics of the new ballroom (on the northern addition to the B-C)... which will be even larger than the Grand Ballroom.
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3717
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 8:08 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you Mr. Dabirch, you clarified my rather hasty and passionate response. I do feel that Detroit has a quality of life and professional opportunity I can't get elsewhere. Yes there are time of great doubt, especially when having to battle needlessly negative stereotypes from smart folks who should know better.

Mr. Gistok:

Add the capacity of the Crystal Ballroom, the Grand Ballroom, the Italian Garden, the new ballroom to be constructed on the expansion, the hotel rooms and the public restaurants and it is pretty easy to get 3,500 people on a busy night flowing through the doors. Thats a lot of car to valet.

BTW, the reason the deck will be so high is that the City will not allow the deck to cantilever over MI Ave, so there there will be only three rows of parking per floor instead of four.

Detroit is not a rose garden, we all know that. But too often people overlook or deliberately downgrade good things just to reiterate that Detroit is not a rosegarden. That is as unhelpful as pretending there is nothing wrong.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2245
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 11:08 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Even worse, he is and has posting on other threads where the multiple uses of this deck have been discussed ad nauseum. He continually bashes the City while hiding behind the curtain of his qualifications and opinion of how all others should live just like him.



I was not aware that this parking garage would have uses other than parking. Please clarify.

I do believe I had enough information to make an assessment. Eleven stories of parking for 6 stories of condos, hotel guests, and whatnot is excessive, given there are thousands upon thousands of parking spots already existing downtown. You know better than I do that Detroit has incredibly redundant amounts of parking, skulker. Isn't the point of the DPM to allow people to circulate through downtown without having to create parking at every damn location?

You are in a position where you could push to eliminate the suburban-esque requirement for redundant parking. Yet, you choose to act like you know better than everyone else, and call names when someone dares to offer any sort of constructive criticism of your city. It's hard to take your professional endeavors seriously knowing this is what your personal sentiments of job-related issues are like.

Saying that something could be improved upon is not the same as bashing. If I were bashing, I would say "Detroit sucks". In your blind rage to be so damn defensive, though, you willingly choose to ignore this.

I just don't understand how building another Southfield is supposed to make Detroit competitive. You have yet to explain this strategy, which on the surface, appears batshit insane from a financial perspective.
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 827
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 11:35 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I am perplexed by this thread.

The Griswold, from the first renderings submitted by KDG, is one of the more exciting complimentary projects that we have seen downtown.

It fills the need for attached parking that people purchasing high-end condos and hotel guests require.

Its amazingly attractive for what many expected to be a dull parking garage.

It adds retail

It adds more upper-income residences to the capitol park area....providing the density that will make more retailers look to the area.

To find a negative in this, you have to be looking pretty hard.
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Crew
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Username: Crew

Post Number: 1162
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 11:36 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The color of the building won't match my purple drapes.
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 3929
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 11:38 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker, do you know if there will be an elevated walkway between the BC and The Griswold Parking Structure?

Just wondering if BC condo owners will have to walk across Shelby after they park their cars in the structure, or cross above the street in an elevated walkway...
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2247
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Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 11:46 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Irish mafia, I completely agree with you. The amount of parking provided in this building, though, is excessive beyond what is required for condo owners and hotel guests. I can say this with a degree of confidence--one of my current projects is a nine-story condominium with but two levels of parking garage.

All of the things you mentioned are positive, but the arcane and outdated parking requirements the City insists upon are holding back development. Parking garages aren't cheap--$25,000 or so per space to construct. Parking fees will cover the maintenance costs, but since garages are not typically intended to be revenue-generating properties, extra capital costs need to be expended to replicate infrastructure that already exists. And this is just one project (or two, depending on how you count). Think of how much more development would happen if the City of Detroit actually dared to think "urban" and get rid of its stupid parking requirements.

But I don't live in Detroit, so I'm just talking bullshit.
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Dabirch
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Post Number: 2194
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 11:52 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan --

Not sure how many times this has been said on here, but the city does not have parking requirements.

It is the financial institutions that will not underwrite residential projects without what they as deem adequate parking.

But we have been through that countless times, and clearly, you just do not want to listen.

Unless, of course, my reading comprehension and/or memory has been all but decimated, and I am making all of this up.
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Crawford
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Username: Crawford

Post Number: 54
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Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:16 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

"To find a negative in this, you have to be looking pretty hard."

Yes, it's quite a stretch to find a negative in yet another prewar office tower being demolished in favor of a yet another giant parking structure with a few potential floors of subsidized condos on top.

There are good arguments for and against this kind of development, but it is ridiculous to assume that everyone agrees that downtown is better served long-term by a huge parking facility over street fabric and historic preservation.

Detroit's competition is with the burbs. The burbs have tons of parking and ugly condos. They generally don't have prewar office towers or street fabric.
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Fareastsider
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Username: Fareastsider

Post Number: 275
Registered: 08-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:22 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pre war office towers didnt save the city from loosing people in extremely large numbers. Pre war towers didnt help downtown from the 70's to today either. At this point the city needs revenue and residents and businesses downtown. This is not a blank check to destroy and build whatever possible but given the situation that Detroit is in I believe that the Griswold is a good middle ground that most can agree will benefit the city. Perhaps with the BC, Griswold, and other investments demand will rise to renovate existing buildings on a level that the existing pre war buildings could not draw by sitting there vacant.
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Kpm
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Post Number: 32
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Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:23 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

'Subsidized' condos? Please explain.
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Skulker
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Post Number: 3718
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Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:33 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Irish mafia, I completely agree with you. The amount of parking provided in this building, though, is excessive beyond what is required for condo owners and hotel guests. I can say this with a degree of confidence--one of my current projects is a nine-story condominium with but two levels of parking garage



So the markets between your project and this project are the same? The market in which your project is located has no functioning mass transit system and no walkable retail in the immediate vicinity?

The number of spots per floor in your deck is the same as this deck? [For the math challenged the Griswold deck has 49 spaces per floor]

The number of units per floor in your project is the same as the number of units per floor in this project? [For the math challenged thats about 13 units per floor]

The deck to be constructed is 540 spaces.

64 + 80 condo units = 144 total units.

144 units X 1.75 spaces per unit = 252 spaces to support the condos alone. That isn't crazy city regulations, in fact the banks, relying on solid data of what has and has not sold in the area, are requiring a parking ratio higher than the City recommends as the bare minimum in its zoning. Limiting the the number of spaces through zoning, if the City were to refuse approval until the ratio was brought down to 1:1 would result in no sales and no financing, and I think we can all agree that not having these projects is not a good thing.

Keep in mind these are large sized luxury units in a CBD that has no mass transit. In order to build density and market, the first couple projects will need 1.5 to 2 spaces per unit. It is a market reality and an either or choice. Either build sufficient parking for purchasers or don't sell the units. Not a pretty reality, but reality nonetheless.

The hotel has 455 rooms and in the Detroit market about 1/3 of overnight guests have cars. This is not speculation, it is based on the developer of the BC experience with the 198 room hotel he built in Harmonie Park. To have secured available adjacent parking, the hotel operator needs roughly 150 spaces.

150 + 252 = 402 spaces just to serve the condos and over night guests. the other 140 spaces are for event guests. A 300 person wedding in the Crystal Ballroom will bring 150 cars, bingo, bango full deck. Overflow valeted to decks in surrounding areas.

What happens if the Crystal Ballroom is booked the same night there is a 1,100 person event in the new Ballroom? Why golly the over flow is shuttled to other decks. So has the developer overbuilt the garage? I really don't think so. In fact the banks wanted even more parking than is included in the deck. The developer and the City fought for as small a deck as they could get the banks to go along with.

And Dannycakes, its not that you don't live here that makes you full of shit, it's the fact that you post with out facts and knowledge of local conditions. This is eloquently shown in Dabirch's rebuttal that blaming the City in this case is blaming the wrong party.
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Jdkeepsmiling
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Username: Jdkeepsmiling

Post Number: 213
Registered: 01-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

By subsidized, he means giving the residents tax rates that are in line with the rest of the metro area. Crazy idea....
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Gistok
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Username: Gistok

Post Number: 3930
Registered: 08-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:38 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Crawford... do you belong to a historic preservation group? Maybe you should... you might learn something... that not everything can be saved.
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Kpm
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Username: Kpm

Post Number: 33
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Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 12:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks Jdk. The post above almost sounded like the condos were subsidized, not the taxes.
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Jdkeepsmiling
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Post Number: 216
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Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 1:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Technically, the Roxbury Group, did not "pay" for the land that their project will be built upon, but only for the structural upgrades needed to make the parking deck able to support the condos. I don;t know who paid for the demolition of the Commerce Building, but if it was a public entity, you could call that a subsidy. Personally, I feel that is getting very very nitpicky, it's not as if taxpayers are paying for construction.
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Swingline
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Post Number: 759
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Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 1:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

There is definitely no shortage of parking in the CBD. But there's also no way the B-C project moves forward without dedicated parking and lots of it. That is just a given in this market. The end result is the Griswold structure and it is a fantastic result given the alternatives. It is not too farfetched for the parking solution to have resulted in another ghastly structure like the Financial District garage on Shelby and Lafayette. That would have been tens of millions of dollars cheaper and performed the same function. Instead, we have street retail, some architectural interest to the structure, and a few dozen luxury residential units added to the CBD. Yes, the garage is quite tall, but the height also creates the opportunity for the residential. Sales prices would be much lower if the units were on floors 5-9. Also, the height helps to maintain the Michigan Ave street wall. A shorter structure would have a far more suburban appearance.

Perhaps the cycle of mega parking structures can end with the Griswold. One wonders if there is now enough capacity that developers can forge some long-term parking lease agreements and get adaptive re-use projects financed for the Lafayette and David Stott buildings. Is this wishful thinking or is it feasible? I don't know.
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Detroitbill
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Post Number: 186
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Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 1:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Maintaining pre war buildings is a desirable thought however the fact is these buildings sit empty, rotting and are a eye sore to anyone travelling by. I am glad the Griswold is being developed the way it is. Otherwise you would have had a ugly scar of a building sitting next to a major new hotel..No one was interested in developing the old building for commercial or residential purposes, where as this action has developed in very quick time by Detroit standards. There is little need downtown for more office space Downtown.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2248
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Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 1:50 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

The number of spots per floor in your deck is the same as this deck? [For the math challenged the Griswold deck has 49 spaces per floor]

The number of units per floor in your project is the same as the number of units per floor in this project? [For the math challenged thats about 13 units per floor]



Actually, both numbers are close. My project has 15 units per floor, and about 100 or so parking spots. It was built in the 1970s--after the streetcars were dismantled, but before the opening of the Metro.

I understand the numbers, and the necessity. I still think it's a shame. I wish the banks would get their act together. Considering the vast amount of public support for the Book Cadillac project, couldn't that be used as leverage against the banks' rules? Don't the banks understand that by building less parking, the project is easier to finance?

Stupid number-crunching bean counters.
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Skulker
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Post Number: 3720
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Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 2:19 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Actually what the banks understand is that when people are plopping down $1.3 million for a penthouse unit in the metro Detroit market, buyers simply aren't going to do it with just 1 parking space, especially for a three bedroom unit. Reality is reality and wishing it were different won't get you very far.

What those stupid number crunching bean counters DO understand that a project is harder to finance if you don't have unit sales.

It sucks, but its what we deal with in the here and now. Its not that folks here don't have vision or understand what a vibrant city is, they do. But what they further understand is that visions for the future don't magically appear fully formed. That, in the meantime, compromise and imperfect solutions are needed to make incremental market change to get to the longterm vision. Holding the line against the proposed 1,200 space deck with no residential or retail uses is one small step in the right direction.
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Danindc
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Post Number: 2250
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 2:44 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I understand the unfortunate reality. I'm frustrated because I know that this is case, even if I wish it weren't. I guess what I'm poking at here is that something in the reality needs to change at some point. What happens when all the empty lots are built upon (we can dream, right?) and there still isn't enough critical mass of people--because half of all the real estate is still devoted to parking? Do you start bulldozing buildings that were constructed 10 years earlier?

I think we all know that the banks who are financing these projects in Detroit are the same banks that finance projects in other cities. But projects in other cities don't have the same parking requirements to obtain financing, mostly because they have extensive public transportation systems. In the long run, a transit system is going to need to be reconstructed in Detroit, if it ever hopes to achieve its potential, or even come close to being as vibrant and dynamic as its boosters wish.

I know Kwame has taken steps toward this. I think what worries me, is that in my heart, I feel like many people honestly believe that half the downtown can be parking and still be successful.
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Danny
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Username: Danny

Post Number: 5668
Registered: 02-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 2:48 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker,

Are you referring the quote to me or someone else? I did not write that.
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 550
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 2:51 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan,

The parking is for...

1. Hotel Guests
2. The conference rooms in the Hotel
3. The Condos on the Hotel
4. The Condos on the Parking Structure.

Sounds like it's a necessity to me.



You forgot to mention that it also will be for (hopefully) revived shops and restaurants that will follow the B-C and Griswold development.
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2251
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 2:52 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

You forgot to mention that it also will be for (hopefully) revived shops and restaurants that will follow the B-C and Griswold development.



Isn't that what parking meters are for?
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 11439
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 2:57 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Is it balls? Or is it a belief that it will be better tomorrow? that you can live a better life here than you could elsewhere? That your professional and personal well-being is better off living and staying in the D than it is to move elsewhere?

Because if it is the latter, I have all the respect in the world for that decision.

But if it is the former, then, Mr. Skulker, my friend, I believe you need to re-assess your criteria.



Dabirch,

Are you and Dannycakes related? You move to DC too?

ps...I'm pretty sure its balls, those who don't have them, move to one of the coasts.
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Dabirch
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Username: Dabirch

Post Number: 2195
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 3:00 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Or buy guns and dogs
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3721
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 3:04 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

See everyone? We can get along nicely.....

Valid concern and good question. Much like the City Council moved to require first floor retail on every new deck in heart of the CBD, the DDA and the Administration are adopting a policy that requires mixed use development of any and all new decks built that have any public dollars or tax incentives. Want incentives? Either build or prep for development on top.

The continuum is

Lot
Deck
Deck with retail on ground level
Deck with retail on ground level and office / housing above.
Below grade garage with development on top.
Transit YAY!

Considering how quickly the the CBD market has moved from Deck to Deck with mixed use, the momentum is clearly swinging the towards the transit end of the continuum.

There were a few decks such as the Greektown Casino deck that just went up on Beaubien after the mandate, but they had already pulled permits and there was no way to go back and yank them without a big old legal mess. This shift has been spurred by decks like the second deck at the Comerica Tower. That was the real wake up call for folks once it was completed.
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Supersport
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Username: Supersport

Post Number: 11440
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 3:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hey, whatever it takes to not be labeled a quitter, right?
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Danindc
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Username: Danindc

Post Number: 2252
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 3:05 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Are you and Dannycakes related? You move to DC too?

ps...I'm pretty sure its balls, those who don't have them, move to one of the coasts.



This coming from the worldly guy who has lived in Michigan his entire life. Are you like 12 years old, or just overly juvenile?
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Skulker
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Username: Skulker

Post Number: 3722
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 3:09 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dan, here you go with misinformation again.

Sport lived in Indianapolis for a couple years. They have retail downtown there.

He knows whats up....

snicker
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Detroitrulez
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Username: Detroitrulez

Post Number: 195
Registered: 12-2006
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 3:13 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Pics??....of the eunuchs I mean. Not the juvenile one, thanks.
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Sharmaal
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Username: Sharmaal

Post Number: 1045
Registered: 09-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 3:15 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Rhymeswithrawk -

You got me thinking, there is a very good chance that it might also be used for the Lafayette Building (if it ever moves forward).


1. Hotel Guests
2. The conference rooms in the Hotel
3. The Condos on the Hotel
4. The Condos on the Parking Structure.
5. Possible Condos in the Lafayette Building
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Korridorkid
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Username: Korridorkid

Post Number: 81
Registered: 01-2005
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 5:35 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Skulker- (or anyone, really)

The new ballroom for the B.C. that you've mentioned, and has been mentioned in the development news- will that be occupying space <inside> the current footprint of the Hotel or on the vacant lot right next to it, touching State st.?

My hopes are for the lot, I think it would really fill that corner nicely.

Thanks for the info!
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Rsa
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Username: Rsa

Post Number: 1066
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 5:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

the lot adjacent to the book cadillac will be developed into space that will serve the greater development. i believe the new ballroom is to be located in this new structure.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 733
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Tuesday, March 27, 2007 - 7:25 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

quote:

Much like the City Council moved to require first floor retail on every new deck in heart of the CBD, the DDA and the Administration are adopting a policy that requires mixed use development of any and all new decks built that have any public dollars or tax incentives. Want incentives? Either build or prep for development on top.



Good move by the city. We now, at least, are making the most of bad a situation with our need for parking.
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Atperry
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Username: Atperry

Post Number: 253
Registered: 12-2004
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 2:45 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Half the units have been claimed

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20070402/BUSINES S04/70402060
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Irish_mafia
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Username: Irish_mafia

Post Number: 856
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 2:54 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Already posted here:

Posted on Monday, April 02, 2007 - 1:40 pm:

------------------------------ ------------------------------ --------------------
Deposits placed on more than half of Griswold condominiums.

http://freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll /article?AID=/20070402/BUSINES S04/70402060
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Warrenite84
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Username: Warrenite84

Post Number: 72
Registered: 01-2007
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 2:31 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great news!
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Rhymeswithrawk
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Username: Rhymeswithrawk

Post Number: 611
Registered: 11-2005
Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 3:19 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You got me thinking, there is a very good chance that it might also be used for the Lafayette Building (if it ever moves forward).


One can only hope, my friend. One can only hope and dream. : : dreamy sigh : :
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Kraemerdesigngroup
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Username: Kraemerdesigngroup

Post Number: 59
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:20 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We continue to get requests for more images, here is a view from the penthouses along Michigan Avenue.


j
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Lowell
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Username: Lowell

Post Number: 3772
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:42 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thanks KDG. What a nice morning view to wake up to that will be. I notice that Shelby between the Griswold and the Cadillac is currently shut down. Will it be reopened? Will there be a skywalk or other connection between the two buildings?
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Kraemerdesigngroup
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Username: Kraemerdesigngroup

Post Number: 60
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 11:10 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lowell - our team is not involved in the BC work, but we understand that Shelby will reopen and become one-way. Also, there is a skywalk planned from the garage.
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Kraemerdesigngroup
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Username: Kraemerdesigngroup

Post Number: 61
Registered: 10-2005
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 11:22 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Although KDG is not involved in the BC work, we do know that Shelby will reopen one-way and there will be a skywalk form the garage.
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Lmichigan
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Username: Lmichigan

Post Number: 5334
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 7:28 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

KDG,

Do you happen to know who exactly the parking garage is being constructed for? I know the obvious ones such as the building directly atop it, and for the B-C, but is there are room to be rented, perhaps, for the neighboring Lafayette? And, for the B-C, are the condo units selling with dedicated parking in the garage?

I ask, because, I've done some rough calculations, and it would seem that it would be quite a tight fit if the Lafayette was also hoping to use this garage. I'd also heard that the Lafayette may construct another parking garage adjacent to it, which would literally surround it on its three most prominent sides by parking garages, and I'm hoping that's not the case.
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Eric
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Username: Eric

Post Number: 767
Registered: 11-2004
Posted on Saturday, April 07, 2007 - 10:46 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Read some of the earlier post Skulker gave a break down of the garage space uses.
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Scruffy
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Username: Scruffy

Post Number: 1
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 11:27 am: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The Lafayette Building is no longer in the mix for the Griswold deck
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Apbest
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Username: Apbest

Post Number: 517
Registered: 03-2006
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 12:36 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

so our options are new deck or no lafayette?

looks like a new deck it is
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Scruffy
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Username: Scruffy

Post Number: 2
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 12:49 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Not necessarily. If the developers of the Lafayette were prepared to utilize parking in the Griswold (six lanes away across Michigan), why wouldn't they find the Dime Building deck (two lanes away across Lafayette) just as acceptable.
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Llyn
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Username: Llyn

Post Number: 1793
Registered: 06-2004
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 2:34 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

At any rate and with regards to the Lafayette Bldg., after the success of penthouses at the BC and Griswold etc., I'm wondering where those posters are who said luxury condos wouldn't succeed downtown.
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Scruffy
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Username: Scruffy

Post Number: 3
Registered: 04-2007
Posted on Sunday, April 08, 2007 - 4:11 pm: Edit PostDelete PostMove Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You're right. These projects have demonstrated that the market for downtown luxury is deep and broad. Personally, I have my doubts about the Lafayette Building in that category, particularly Peebles' vision of it as ultra-high luxury. The building lacks the landmark appeal of the Book Cadillac or Whitney, or the height draw of the Stott, Book Tower, or Broderick. More of a utility infielder to me. Nice loft product, decent location.

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