Post Number: 78
|Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 1:49 pm: || |
This is for the "UNION HATERS"
The old saying, "What Goes Around Comes Around" and "I Told You So" are a fitting tribute to all of you RTW cheerleaders. Boy is this classic. Company convinces (bribes) workers to hate unions and keep them out of their plants. Once they have them sucked in, they put them in poor working conditions, undercut with low-wage temp workers and terminate people who complain. I don't want to call it poetic justice, that the same people who cheered anti-union slogans to lure Toyota and others to the south, have now turned to those very Unions for help. I wan't to feel sorry for those people who drank the Corporate Cool-aid, But I can't.
Those people, and people who think like them have lobbied against good people like my father for years. I am not a hateful person, but this is one of those times that I am happy to say!!
YOU GOT WHAT YOU DESERVED!!!!
Post Number: 860
|Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 2:03 pm: || |
Your point would be better represented if you had an article to post to back up what you are saying.
Post Number: 145
|Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 2:05 pm: || |
Hi Lvnthed - there are a couple of things at work here. One is the history of corporate exploitation of labor, i.e. getting a pile of value out of the worker but paying only a pittance. The unions helped to close the gap, that was a good thing, and it's ironic that the RTW crowd is experiencing what Marx termed the alienation of the proletariate from the value of their labors.
The second issue, though, is whether or not powerful, organized labor has a place in the global economy. It's rotten that we're losing our factory jobs to RTW / low-cost states, but most of that work is a low-skill commodity, and so it may be that it's better for America to have these lousy-paying jobs than have the whole damn thing go to China. I'm predicting that once Toyota and the other import brands working here get unionized that the lights will go out in Marysville, San Antonio and elsewhere.
I too grew up knowing the words to "Solidarity Forever," but I cannot imagine how Labor will ever again be relevant the way that it was for generations-passed.
Post Number: 388
|Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 2:12 pm: || |
Lvnthed: Is this fact or your opinion?
Post Number: 389
|Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 2:33 pm: || |
http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi- bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY= /www/story/03-31-2007/00045572 01&EDATE=
Post Number: 390
|Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 2:36 pm: || |
http://www.autoblog.com/2007/0 1/31/toyota-workers-in-us-made -more-than-uaw-members-for-fir st-time-l/
Post Number: 51
|Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 2:38 pm: || |
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs .dll/article?AID=/20070401/BUS INESS01/704010714
I love it!
Post Number: 79
|Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 2:56 pm: || |
Thanks Buyamerican!! that is the article I was referring to .
I too, feel that things have got to change with the way Unions operate. We have got to bring union activism in line with 2007 economics. My problem is with people who feel that unions have NO place in Corporate America.
This article illustrates the evolution of non-union employees in RTW states. Free from Protection and under Constant Assault. Yet no accountability for the white-collar executives who write their own rules.
Post Number: 52
|Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 4:01 pm: || |
I may be wrong but I strongly believe that had there never been unions, there never would have been a middle-class of people. I am pro union from my very soul and thank the unions for helping to get the employees decent working conditions, decent healthcare benefits, a good pension and many other things.
Post Number: 80
|Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 4:11 pm: || |
My father raised and sent 5 children to college with his union job. And none of us have careers in manufacturing.
Now thats economic empowerment!!!
Post Number: 5132
|Posted on Sunday, April 01, 2007 - 4:31 pm: || |
Hey, the new Chrysler engine plant at Dundee, Michigan is loaded up with changes. Although a UAW plant, many workers there like sweepers, and contractors are not union. The UAW is signing new contracts which don't include the whole shop-floor workplace anymore.
However it plays in Georgetown, Ky., it is well known in fact that the foreign producers went to smaller, non-union environments, to build plants in USA. Take it to the bank that the bosses will fight the UAW with full frontals. Otherwise, they could have built in Michigan in the first place with all the skilled union hands going idle.
Funny, eh, that Toyota et.al. have engineering and designers in Michigan. Hard to find that kind of talent in The South. (Don't get jjaba started, please.)
jjaba, Solidarity Forever.
Post Number: 19
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:44 am: || |
good point about non-union environments.....
Having lived in Detroit, and now in Lexington Ky, for 15 years, I realized I never hear about unions down here. Furthermore, I think TOyota did its demographic homework: Kentucky is still very agriculture based, and farmers are real loners. THey don't need no union. THey don't seem to have clubs, guilds or anyhing like that.
WHen you think about it, maybe this has led to their slow demise. Maybe with a farmers union, they could have commanded better prices, and more families would have been able to afford to stay in farming.
THink about it: what "industry" produces something and takes the price the buyer says they'll pay? The only one I can think of is the farmers.
Post Number: 148
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:56 am: || |
Farmers tried "unions" in the US a long time ago, i.e. Granges. The last Grange Hall that I saw had a tree growing up from the floor through the missing roof.
The other big experiment in agriculture that came close to unions ended up with five million deliberately starved-dead Ukranians and then a country that could barely feed its own.
I'm not sure that agricultural unions would be a good thing.
Post Number: 22
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:10 am: || |
No grange halls here in Ky.
Can you give me some details about that Ukraine thing? When was that? Thanks
Post Number: 172
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:15 am: || |
Farmers have government subsidies.
Post Number: 5147
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:16 am: || |
Farmers do control prices to some measure by supply and demand. When prices are good, they plant fencepoost to fencepost like in midwestern corn right now.
They are also paid $Billions NOT to plant by the govt. so those who do plant will get a decent price for a crop. Others plant a crop bought by the govt. or a foreign govt. like Cuba at a guaranteed price.
Middleageguy #19 does make a great point on how isolated farmers go to work at a factory and their children go to work at the factory, and collectivism is a very strange concept. Imagine a legacy of free farmers, self-employed, going to work for a foreign boss like Toyota. Talk about your culture shock.
Post Number: 1779
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 10:43 am: || |
After those plants become Unionized is it ok to then buy foreign since you would need to support your union brothers?
If UAW workers at Toyota go on strike do the Big Three do the same?
BTW, the middle class was created with the ability of common folk to own land.
(Message edited by _sj_ on April 03, 2007)
Post Number: 479
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 11:20 am: || |
We have grange halls up here
Post Number: 23
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 11:42 am: || |
Government subsidies exist, but mainly for large acreage crops, like soybeans, corn, sugar, milk. THese crops are now mostly grown by VERY large corporations. So, often, those subsidies ar helping corporate America. Yes there are some private farmers that get them too.
Small time farmers that grow apples, row crops, herbs, goats, are not subsidized.
Admittedly, they can get some cost share funding, but we are talking about a few thousand dollars or so.
Just for your all's information.
Now, back to the topic......
Post Number: 5733
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:32 pm: || |
Dogmatic reasoning! It pays for mankind.
Post Number: 228
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:36 pm: || |
All interested in modern agriculture should read "Fatal Harvest: The Tragedy of Industrial Agriculture" by Andrew Kimbrell. I apologize for the complete threadjack.
Post Number: 1418
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 12:52 pm: || |
The anti-union employers in the South did a hell of a job linking unionism to communism - in less educated areas it was very effective.
People could buy land because they had enough money to buy it, because unions brought higher wages.
The unions do have to change and I am welcoming the change. No more golf with the bosses.
Post Number: 397
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:09 pm: || |
Did your father work for the union directly? If not, he did not have a "union job." He may have been working in a manufacturing plant that had union labor but the "job" came from the company, not the union.
This is an important distinction that pro union folks fail to make. That is why their demands oftentimes do not coincide to the long-term health of the company they work for. We now have a situation where the stranglehold that unions have on this state is harming us badly.
The majority of the middle class in this country are not in unions, and many job classifications have no history of collective bargaining. To credit unions with "creating the middle class" is a gross oversimplification.
The reason that people link unionism and communism is that there IS a link. The notion of trying to guarantee an outcome as opposed to providing opportunity and letting the free market work is a hallmark of communism. Many of the early leaders in the union movement were in fact communists.
Post Number: 149
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:18 pm: || |
Middleageguy /all - "Harvest of Sorrow" by Robert Conquest relates and interprets the story of forced collectivization of agriculture in the USSR during the 1930s. An estimated 5MM Ukes and Kahzaks were deliberately starved to death because they didn't want their farms to be taken and given to the government. It's a bit of history that touches my heart, but it has been repeated elsewhere (China & Zimbabwe, to a lesser degree).
Post Number: 8
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 1:25 pm: || |
Speaking of Toyota I was watching COPS & America’s Most Wanted this past Saturday (wild & crazy over here on Saturday’s) and couldn’t help but notice all the advertising for Toyota trucks-at the end of the commercial the final line was “built in Indiana and Kentucky.”
Toyota seems to be going after America’s truck business.
I live in Indianapolis.
Post Number: 5154
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 2:24 pm: || |
Perfectgentleman, please now. This is a Detroit Forum and we would prefer not to use canards about union leaders as Sovietski-style communists.
They called Gandhi and ML King communists too.
There are many forms of collectivism and American unions are hardly communism.
Your point about "union jobs" has recently been renamed "family-wage jobs". Perhaps that makes you more comfortable. Your point about the company, not the union, hiring and providing the job is very well taken. Bottom line is STILL the bottom line. The employer takes the risks, puts up the capital, provides the jobs. That's a given.
Without a corporate profit, there are no jobs, union or otherwise.
Post Number: 82
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 3:10 pm: || |
Yes, you are correct in saying that Companies, not union's create jobs. My Father works for Ford at Rouge Assembly. I am 100% aware of the business climate the manufacturing sector has to compete in, I don't have blinders on when dealing with this touchy subject. CHANGE must happen very soon, the question will be if it's a joint effort or a continued polarization of the parties involved.
Now let's do make the distinction between what Union and RTW friendly states have to offer to the employees.
I won't go out as far on that limb and say Union's created the middle class. What I will say is ; Unionization created the atmosphere that brought better pay and working conditions to those who weren't in union shops. It forced companies who didn't want unions, to provide a better working environment for all employees. Therefore all employees have benefited from the presence of unions.
Now, what we are seeing is the regression of the american worker. Foreign companies, firmly planted on RTW american soil can do as they please. They sucked them in, turned them against the north, and now they are going to turn them against each other. They will use the same legacy rhetoric to destroy the south. They will use jealousy and greed to feed that race to the bottom. In ten years the south won't have any good paying auto jobs.
JUST LIKE THE NORTH
Post Number: 1781
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 4:38 pm: || |
People could buy land because they had enough money to buy it, because unions brought higher wages.
Stop making me laugh.
The RTW argument is just a rallying cry for Union members. Consider the fact that only ~10% of the workforce of the US is unionized it must be a bitch to support the rest with your taxes.
It is not a conspiracy or even foreign companies and jobs that are eliminating the jobs, it is the job itself that is shrinking.
The world has changed, the US no longer dominates in manufacturing because everyone else in the world has caught up. The jobs in this country were always desirable becuase they were different and more available than anywhere else in the world. But we have let the other catch up, unionizing Toyota, or adding unfair trade laws will not solve the problem. Those are just petty jealousies.
(Message edited by _sj_ on April 03, 2007)
Post Number: 149
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 4:54 pm: || |
If UAW organizes Toyota workers, will they be able to drink a 6-pack at lunch and not get fired?
The japs will pay the union wage, their main thing is having control of the plant. The UAW is only interested in dues payers not the health of the company. That and cradle to grave employment(i.e. noone can be fired).
Even a half-sober UAW member will tell you, that the 1 or 2% dregs need to be fired. But companies have to carry this dead weight.
It will be interesting to see this play out. Watch out Nissan and Honda!!
Post Number: 1569
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 5:29 pm: || |
Company convinces (bribes) workers to hate unions and keep them out of their plants.
um, if you mean by paying them a decent wage, isn't the UAW doing this, even moreso, to keep the union in the plants?
Post Number: 83
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 6:22 pm: || |
Mjb3, Why don't you people read!!!
I have said many times that "Unions Need To change". I have my issues with with seniority vs Merit problem. But lets not gloss over the true intent of my post.
Yes, they start off paying even more than UAW wages, but that is until they get a foot-hold in that community.
What happens after that is the disgrace. Once the workers get all nice and comfortable in their new jobs and lives. You know, living the dream. Mortgage and Tuition responsibilities that come with that dream. The company starts complaining about Insurance, Benefit and Legacy Costs. The employee, feeling pressure from the community, who think they are draining the company dry, and fearing lay-off, agree to wage and benefit cuts.
A couple years later, Same Thing. Now they wan't more cuts. And the natives hate you, so you cave in. Less money, less benefits and less insurance. What can you do? Lose your dream of sending your kids to college, and freeing them of the struggles that you went through. No; so you deal with the whittling away of all that was promised for your vote against UNIONS. And without those union protections, when they tire of you, they will just get rid of you.
While all of this is happening, Stocks go through the roof, White Collar Compensation Packages Triple in size and the top 1% are feeling real good about themselves.
This is what I mean when I say,
YOU GOT WHAT YOU ASKED FOR
Post Number: 392
|Posted on Tuesday, April 03, 2007 - 7:23 pm: || |
Lvnthed: Your post sounds like speculation. It would take a generation to see the results you describe. The transplants haven't been there that long. Where are you getting your facts?